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The uncomfortable truth

adinosiiadinosii Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 4,294 Arc User
edited January 23 in General Discussion (PC)
Sometimes people don't want to hear the truth - in particular when they are told they are making a mistake or a bad decision....and then we end up in a situation like we have now, where the game is full of angry and confused players.

Let me be absolutly frank here (yes, I know I will not score any popularity points), but the fundamental problem is that the game is developing in a direction that is not appreciated by a very substantial portion of the playerbase.

The stat rework added more problems than it solved.
  • The situation fine for the first 20 levels or so. You start with 50% everywhere, and that is more than enough to get through everything at the start. (And, yes, I did really test this over on preview - took a character from level 1. There was one tough fight near the start (Karzov), but that's it.) No real complaints there.+
  • The situation is also not too bad for players with, say, 50K+ IL and a full set of mythic mounts and companions. Yes, combat is annoyingly slow - critters may take 50-200% longer to kill than before, and for fights that were already long (like the Avernus T3 hunt) the current situation is just absurd, but it's not unreasonably hard....just tedious and less fun than before.
  • Those really suffering are those between those extremes.....this includes mid-level players with maybe just one good companion, one or two epic mounts, a handful of mediocre artifacts, limited insignia, enchants and runestones. This also includes those who hurried to level 80, drove around Avernus to get treasure maps, and think they have good gear, but their IL is just 27K or so. Those are the people getting slaughtered, and they are not happy.
So, what can be done to fix this? I honestly don't know. I just consider the design fundamentally flawed, and there is no easy fix. However, there are some things that could be done to improve some aspects of the changes.
  • I have to admit I do not have much sympathy for people who skip content and then complain that they are not strong enough, but on this subject, I think the game is going in the wrong direction, by discouraging progression through hard work. I have called this the "Marxist approach ", but the goal is to reduce the differences between the "have" and "have not" players. This is the wrong thing to do. Many players are motivated by progression - enjoy making their characters stronger, and the game is taking that away.....demotivated players are not likely to spend money or even to stick around. One example of this is the "0.2% per level" for the boons, and the reduction in the guild boons. The message that players are getting is that their hard work is irrelevant - all that matters how much money you spend. My recommendation would be to increase the boons to 1% per level and double the guild boon points. This would send a clear message that you are expected to play the various campaigns....not just skip them.
  • You need to work on your reward/effort ratio. It was bad - it is worse now, in particular for the content that the "mid-level" players can do. People now have to work harder, and spend twice the time they spent before for the same pathetic rewards as before. Not good, not motivating. Maybe triple the drop rate for companions for a while to give more people stuff they really need?
  • Many players enjoy the feeling of being powerful. Take something like the small instances in Dread Ring, Phantasmal Fortress and such. The very first time I did them they felt tough. Later they felt trivially easy. Now....well, things that previesly died with a single hit now require two. It's just more tedious than before but no more fun and no more rewarding. This is not something anybody wanted or asked for, but a clear example of why the players think the developers are totally out of touch with the playerbase. You really need to find out what motivates your players.....maybe, well, do an honest survey ?
  • It is too easy to get "to the top" just by spending money...I used to say "The game is not P2W - it is more like pay-for-convenience or pay-to-avoid-grind.", but there is less and less you have to grind for and more and more you have to buy, which kind-of makes it difficult to justify the previous statement.
So, can the game be fixed? I don'r know....but I have never before heard as many players say "I'm downloading ESO" as yesterday. Something needs to be done.....and quickly, before the player numbers drop too much.
Hoping for improvements...
Post edited by adinosii on
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Comments

  • darthpotaterdarthpotater Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,104 Arc User
    Maybe everyone disagrees with me, but this Neverwinter is much more similar with the original one. Mobs hit hard, like it should be. Control is more valuable, good tanks, healers. I like this. Most of players maybe dont, there was so much time with cakewalks in dungeons and people used to that (or only knew that).

    Only ToMM and Zariel were a real challenge, tell the truth.

    Every change requires to adapt, more if they are bigger. People want to do the same as 2 days ago and tell "they nerfed me". No. The entire game changed, for everyone.

    The problem is the rewards. That is the next step. We need good rewards for the effort in queued content, now that is more difficult . They promised that. We will see, but giving more rewards with the old system was impossible.
    Lescar PvE Wizard - Sir Garic PvE Paladin
    Caturday Survivor
    Elemental Evil Survivor
    Undermontain Survivor
    Mod20 Combat rework Survivor
  • darthpotaterdarthpotater Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,104 Arc User

    What do you mean by original? I played it when it started and it was never like this. You had to fight to advance? Well. sure you had to, but if you went back to areas you'd finished you'd be stronger and they would feel easier.
    And what good are rewards if you cannot get them?

    When NW released you had T1 dungeons, T2 dungeons and Castle never. Even in T1 dungeons, a DPS going forwards would be murdered. That was what I mean. And you needed teamplay to complete dungeons. T2 were harder and CN was the hardest, with minions hitting like trucks even to tanks.

    I still think solo play and other things need tweaks. But group teamplay needed a change, it was a joke a dps going forward killing everything with 1-2 encounters.
    Lescar PvE Wizard - Sir Garic PvE Paladin
    Caturday Survivor
    Elemental Evil Survivor
    Undermontain Survivor
    Mod20 Combat rework Survivor
  • sandukutupusandukutupu Member Posts: 2,265 Arc User
    I don't run random dungeons, they are not enjoyable. I seldom join PUGs for content, if and when I do, I have another reason for being there. After checking my characters, I didn't rework anything (powers, feats, all the same) I did juggle some enchants. Then I ran Defending the Portal, this is low level content, I stopped playing because I walked all over the enemies. Instead of one shotting them, I actually had to fight them. I couldn't allow my companion to just take the on by himself. I didn't die or get the feeling I would die from the fight, it was just a bit longer. I ran up to Avernus where I had some deaths before, it was not so. I am running a wizard by the way, they have walked all over me in the last year. Still didn't die from it.

    What I am hearing about most in chat is ToNG and other superior dungeons. Thing I question, are you going in with a good crowd or is this a the goof troop? I have no issues with teaching people how to run a dungeon but a PUG is not the way to do it. Random dungeons are full of first timers, and if a first time player is reading this; you need to stay out until you watch some tutorials on YouTube.

    @darthpotater I don't find anything wrong with the combat rework on my end, but I am a mediocre player at best. I really don't play much end game content, and these days been playing a different game completely. I can relate to those complaining about the rework as this is the second one within 2 years. Given time players will figure it out, once they do, everyone will just copy whatever they lay down as the best method. I think the real issue should be all the bugs they released going live. I understand they had a chat bug and other issues that a combat rework should not even touch upon.

    Have fun! :heart:
  • elmandakarelmandakar Member Posts: 32 Arc User

    What do you mean by original? I played it when it started and it was never like this. You had to fight to advance? Well. sure you had to, but if you went back to areas you'd finished you'd be stronger and they would feel easier.
    And what good are rewards if you cannot get them?

    When NW released you had T1 dungeons, T2 dungeons and Castle never. Even in T1 dungeons, a DPS going forwards would be murdered. That was what I mean. And you needed teamplay to complete dungeons. T2 were harder and CN was the hardest, with minions hitting like trucks even to tanks.

    I still think solo play and other things need tweaks. But group teamplay needed a change, it was a joke a dps going forward killing everything with 1-2 encounters.
    I left before Castle Never existed I believe. Yes, I agree about group contents, but solo was never like this back then
  • darthpotaterdarthpotater Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,104 Arc User

    What do you mean by original? I played it when it started and it was never like this. You had to fight to advance? Well. sure you had to, but if you went back to areas you'd finished you'd be stronger and they would feel easier.
    And what good are rewards if you cannot get them?

    When NW released you had T1 dungeons, T2 dungeons and Castle never. Even in T1 dungeons, a DPS going forwards would be murdered. That was what I mean. And you needed teamplay to complete dungeons. T2 were harder and CN was the hardest, with minions hitting like trucks even to tanks.

    I still think solo play and other things need tweaks. But group teamplay needed a change, it was a joke a dps going forward killing everything with 1-2 encounters.
    I left before Castle Never existed I believe. Yes, I agree about group contents, but solo was never like this back then
    Castle Never existed since day 0. Maybe you start after mod 6 when they removed it. That was not the original NW. The actual CN is a joke comparing to the original one.
    Lescar PvE Wizard - Sir Garic PvE Paladin
    Caturday Survivor
    Elemental Evil Survivor
    Undermontain Survivor
    Mod20 Combat rework Survivor
  • darthpotaterdarthpotater Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,104 Arc User
    bukirob said:

    Maybe everyone disagrees with me, but this Neverwinter is much more similar with the original one. Mobs hit hard, like it should be. Control is more valuable, good tanks, healers. I like this. Most of players maybe dont, there was so much time with cakewalks in dungeons and people used to that (or only knew that).

    Only ToMM and Zariel were a real challenge, tell the truth.

    Every change requires to adapt, more if they are bigger. People want to do the same as 2 days ago and tell "they nerfed me". No. The entire game changed, for everyone.

    The problem is the rewards. That is the next step. We need good rewards for the effort in queued content, now that is more difficult . They promised that. We will see, but giving more rewards with the old system was impossible.

    You've essentially eliminated all game start play. At level ten should a fighter or a barbarian get MOWED down by a normal 3 nod mob guarding a guard that needs released? No And I dont mean oh he was already at half health. Im talking FULL health full feats and I got MOWED down... thats BS. The game SUCKS now and Im seriously thinking about fiding something else to do or play the new tweak sucks HAMSTER
    I didnt said that. Solo and leveling stuff should be adjusted as I said.
    Lescar PvE Wizard - Sir Garic PvE Paladin
    Caturday Survivor
    Elemental Evil Survivor
    Undermontain Survivor
    Mod20 Combat rework Survivor
  • lightoftyrlightoftyr Member Posts: 2 Arc User
    OK, so this is my second ever post as most of you can see. I started playing NW from the very beginning and jumped from WoW to this. WoW was rinse and repeat with people fighting to get the gear they knew was waiting for them. NW was actually like the original D&D game and it was fun. Progression was key in NW and the actual D&D game. I don't like PUGs and most Guilds have a "click" when they run good content and usually select their core team; this means the newb is out. So I have almost always ran solo. Having said all that, yes the new update is way off base. Yes, I can move around and pull only limited amount of mobs, but they are hitting harder than they ever did before. (In any update) I am level 80, a solid 80, with Avernus gear, not BiS, but solid gear with decent enchantments. I AM NOT geared for end game, but I should not be dying from a group of 5 in Under Mountain Uprising. And NO, to the keyboard heroes out there that say that I didn't do this or that. I am not a tank, but for 7+ long years I have fought and upgeared, changed fighting style and adapted. But this is way beyond, anything update or change I have ever seen. No, I won't quit or threaten to quit, cause I ain't never going back to WoW to wash and repeat. Yes, I am for change as it does keep the game new, challenging, and relevant; however, not being able to stand a chance in a much lower level area does not make any sense. Taking a level 10 (i know its not possible) to Avernus is complete suicide, but take a 80 to Blacklake and getting your HAMSTER handed to you is insane. Yes, it has to be adjusted and I can hardly wait for it to come and soon.
  • aslan3775aslan3775 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 221 Arc User
    I've played for more years than I want to admit, and this is not the first 'difficult' mod change that I have endured. I even spent time posting on this forum after playing in preview to encourage the devs not to repeat the past mistakes of making 'old' content scaled. Many people did. I believe the OP was one of them, if I remember correctly.

    That said, they didn't listen (yet again).

    While technically the old content is not scaled (according to the devs), it now provides much more of a challenge than it has for the past few months. Ergo, a repeat of history. If people remember, the devs stated that "Combat is in a really good position right now" when Mod 16 was released. It wasn't, and the Devs had to tweak it over the next several months. The same happened in the Mod 6 debacle.

    It's ok though--kind of. I do believe it can get better, and one instance that made me happy was the Dragon Herald Run in Well of Dragons. Before the change, it took one or two well geared people to kill a herald, sometimes before many of the players even arrived at the dragon. After the change, it took between 20-30 seconds to kill the dragon, and several people died. That makes sense, killing a powerful dragon. That "scaling" appears to be (to paraphrase the devs) in a good position right now. I like it. Group content that appears to be properly scaled with expected rewards for the time spent. Unfortunately, right now, that is the only positive example I can find. Most of the scaling I don't agree with or think that it is "in a good position".

    We have all heard that is new combat system will make it easier to scale players. Great. Now we need to (again) provide the feedback to correct the garbage scale that is currently in place.

    The OP mentioned many of the issues facing the game right now. And i agree with what he said. But we need to address one issue at a time and hope that all of the issues will be addressed sooner rather than later. Because those of us who weathered Mod 6 know what happens if it becomes later.
  • flyball#6248 flyball Member Posts: 158 Arc User

    I think many players are struggling with:

    1. Getting stats re-distributed.
    2. Getting companions upgraded.


    Getting stats re-distributed is a learning process and the problem will be short-term. The companion issue is serious for many mid-level players who spend limited amounts (or no) money on the game. With some players at 100% bolster and others at 25% bolster, a division is arising. I think it's important for players to feel more opportunity instead of facing a years grind to get their bolster up. At this time some players are pondering the idea of checking out other games to see if they are more fun. This backdrop leads me to a suggestion:

    * Give every account 75 more Companion Tokens
    * Find a way for players to earn a 'free' companion token everyday for playing. (example: Add a companion token reward to the stronghold quest for running a daily dungeon)

    Yes new players like me really don't fully understand stats. What I do understand is that I was having fun and progression slowly with my first characters and having a lot of fun. I thought I was getting decent gear by completing quest objectives, spending adventure seals and bounty rewards. Apparently that's not the case as now my level 50 and level 60 chars can hardly leave the protection of Protector's Enclave as they die 20-30 times just to merely slay 25 cultists.

    Even before the patch I was struggling to find how to upgrade my companions and mounts. Even if I could upgrade any f my companions still would not overcome how difficult the game has become for me. I had even just started doing other campaigns that now are just too difficult.
  • jfrestajfresta Member Posts: 1 Arc User
    The game is a CHORE now.... If I wanted to spend my free time doing CHORES I would have bought a HOBBY FARM!
    It was nice to look forward to relaxing and playing this... now there is nothing to look forward to or relaxing about it.
  • stark760stark760 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 457 Arc User
    Changing the game mechs and overhaul...that's one thing. Changing skills along with it, or HP bonus tanks had from 40% to 20%, is not just a change. You nerfed things that people took time and money to build up, with the notion they were getting specific bonus when they upgraded or bought. To call now "effectively" its better...yeah right. Now tanks have 10% more HP than DC. Then binding enchants that people turn in, when they aren't already bound? If the idea was to make people leave, your actions are working as intended.
  • shugenshashugensha Member Posts: 152 Arc User
    As a player i understand the changes but at the same time hate them. I hate that i can't no longer do all my weekly quests in like 1hs or do dungs like MC or TONG in 20 min or less... And, again, at the same time i realize that due to that, this changes make it harder.

    As a healer, i like the fact that now yes or yes the tank needs to go first but my healing is so low i ran out of soulweave pretty fast, but is maybe cuz ppl still needs to adapt and stop runing all over the place.
    Soulweaver: The Lovely Red
    Minstrel: The Rose Troubadour

  • regenerderegenerde Member Posts: 2,915 Arc User
    edited January 23
    Well, actual new player are up HAMSTER creek without a paddle right now:
    - they can't earn Rough Astral Diamonds, because of the 15k IL requirement to join a Random Dungeon Queue
    - they can't even finish Cloak Tower on their own, since enemies in there will shred them within seconds

    A start in fixing this mess could be increasing the bolster from companions and mounts:
    + rares could give 3%
    + epics could give 5%
    + legendary could give 7%
    + and mythic would keep their 10%
    and then adjust the damage any regular enemies are doing right now.

    Not to mention that the reward system should have seen at least some boost by now...
    Post edited by regenerde on
    I do believe in killing the messenger...
    Want to know why?
    Because it sends a message!
  • maxzius#3795 maxzius Member Posts: 130 Arc User
    I've just come back to the game after having been gone for a couple of years both because I felt that the devs were out of touch with the playerbase and because I felt that the devs don't actually think everything through before they do things and when problems are brought to their attention they are generally ignored.

    With that said, I, again, feel like I was correct. These changes feel rushed and not thought through, at all. Like someone said earlier - this isn't Dungeons and Dragons, this is a gauntlet where you are always underpowered. The carrot just didn't move more mid-game players this time, it HAMSTER teleported. This change is under-tested and not even remotely thought through.

    Also - Arc Defender is still HAMSTER stupid.
  • rednecktrekrednecktrek Member Posts: 2 Arc User
    I'm happily casual and what I enjoy most about MMOs is progression. It's highly unlikely that there is ever a point where any of my toons are going to be BiS. I'm totally OK with that, but it's fun for me to work towards the goal of being BiS even if I'll never be there. Even if it's more of a challenge to try and get there.

    The trouble is that I have absolutely no idea what to do now. I know that my toon's main stats are now tied to my item level. I know that you can get your total percentage up to 90%. That's it. How do I get my percentage up? At what percentage is my toon going to be somewhat viable? What stats are important for my Cleric healer main and my Rogue? I have been saving some resources knowing that a big change was coming, but how do I spend those resources? Just tell me what I need to grind and do and I'll be happy to do it, even if it's terribly difficult. The (what I assume is) official video from Cryptic basically says "your main stats are now tied to your IL and you can get your percentage up to 90%". How? I don't want to spend a bunch of resources not knowing if it's going to be helpful or if I'm going to be spending them on the wrong stats and in the wrong places. From what little I can gather about the changes, you need to upgrade mounts and companions. I upgraded the Polar Bear Cub on my Cleric to mythic. My stats changed a little. I tried swapping out a few enchantments. My stats changed a little. I don't know what to do!

    At this point, all I know to do is wait for a couple of weeks until the content creators come up with viable builds. That's assuming that there aren't a bunch of changes and it's more like a month or two before the smart people come up with viable builds. If I can't log in and play my toons somewhat comfortably, I doubt I'll be around long enough for that to happen.

  • xvimn134xvimn134 Member Posts: 132 Arc User
    NW is designed to be a casual game mostly. They are making the system over-complicated and hard to do any change or going back, tbh it is not very successful. I would want the stats system to go back to normal just like any other successful mmorpg game, do not make it over-complicate! And no big patch should come in one patch, instead the changes should be little by little to give people more time to adapt to.
  • stark760stark760 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 457 Arc User
    xvimn134 said:

    NW is designed to be a casual game mostly. They are making the system over-complicated and hard to do any change or going back, tbh it is not very successful. I would want the stats system to go back to normal just like any other successful mmorpg game, do not make it over-complicate! And no big patch should come in one patch, instead the changes should be little by little to give people more time to adapt to.

    It was also a game of progression, or building your character/s. That progression is gone, along with many benefits worked for, or paid for. Many arent going to stick around after another kick in the nuts.
  • sandukutupusandukutupu Member Posts: 2,265 Arc User
    I want to focus on what you said here my friend.
    adinosii said:


    So, can the game be fixed? I don'r know....but I have never before heard as many players say "I'm downloading ESO" as yesterday. Something needs to be done.....and quickly, before the player numbers drop too much.

    This morning @ultramath#3953 was attempting to get an "Advice Thread" started. Almost immediately player became abusive toward them and the thread degraded into a debate about the poster rather than support for those who need it. I gave up playing to get ahead when they canned the Foundry almost 2 years ago. I am present in the game and have been here daily since then. That is about to change, for now I plan to visit once a week, and get back to my writing.

    No, I didn't download ESO, I have Morrowind and I really don't care for Bethesda. I got Assassin's Creed from my husband as a gift, I am writing my stories for Ubisoft these days. Also since I am stockholder in Ubisoft. Does that seem a bit like an advert? I really wanted to invest my inheritance with Cryptic, but I couldn't, my broker advised me not to invest into overseas and Chinese companies. I am getting some good dividend checks, I figure I might as well play their games.

    Anything can be repaired, but as my husband pointed out, before all this went live, all the players in the world are not about to roll back the $10 million dollars worth of work spent. He was told his opinion didn't matter, more or less. I barely understand what the big geek says myself, but I still respect his opinions. If you stay here to play, try to assist other players the best you can.
  • jager#2288 jager Member Posts: 6 Arc User
    @adinosii nice post
  • feanor70118feanor70118 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,154 Arc User

    I think many players are struggling with:

    1. Getting stats re-distributed.
    2. Getting companions upgraded.


    Getting stats re-distributed is a learning process and the problem will be short-term. The companion issue is serious for many mid-level players who spend limited amounts (or no) money on the game. With some players at 100% bolster and others at 25% bolster, a division is arising. I think it's important for players to feel more opportunity instead of facing a years grind to get their bolster up. At this time some players are pondering the idea of checking out other games to see if they are more fun. This backdrop leads me to a suggestion:

    * Give every account 75 more Companion Tokens
    * Find a way for players to earn a 'free' companion token everyday for playing. (example: Add a companion token reward to the stronghold quest for running a daily dungeon)

    75 companion token do nothing when it takes 750 tokens to upgrade 5 companions to mythic. 900 to upgrade 6 companions if you want to summon one whose power you aren't using (and actually it looks like you can't slot the power of your summoned companion, so...).

    The whole update was a monstrous cash grab, following several other badly conceived monstrous cash grabs, and this will fail even worse than mod 6 or mod 16.

    This dev team never devotes time, energy or budget to fixes. They never have. They have never listened to players since they went ahead with the mod 6 disaster. I'm frankly amazed this game is still around, with how hard they've tried to drive players away.
  • silente07#2597 silente07 Member Posts: 208 Arc User
    Cash grabs?
    Like selling the Alpha comphy knowing it was going to be near useless or making folks grind hard or pay cash for a holy vorpal no one will use till next rework, if we do make it to next rework.
    Business is business it man that was cold.
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