Feedback on Fighter Vanguard as of current preview build (291220)

wilbur626

After listening to a lot of concerned players stating that the combat changes is a "nerf" to the Fighter Vanguard tanks, I decided it is time to take a detailed look at all the changes that are in the current preview build.


Summed up changes for Fighter Vanguards :

- Most powers have had their magnitudes increased. (Ive seen many statements regarding the "nerf" to tanks damage output, this is incorrecct)
- Unshakable Shieldarm is now WAI for both block and Dig In
- Tactician's Edge is now showing in Character Sheet and is WAI
- Class feature "Vigorous Strikes" does now show in character sheet and is WAI. No longer useless.
- Dig In and Bladed Rampart are now extremely strong tank powers due to Combat Advantage immunity (15/30% awareness on cast)
- Retaliate and Bladed Rampart can now crit

Feedback :

- Clarify how self-healing adds to threat generation ( @noworries#8859 )
- Shieldthrower feat has wrong magnitude in tooltip ( @skingdev#1102 )
- 1st tier feat "Staying Power" does not work (?)
- 2nd tier feat "Rising Tide" needs rework
- 4th tier feat "Deep Breathing" needs rework

At-Wills :


Always remember that artifact weapon modifications = +10% threat generation from at-wills.
For lower ilvl tanks that have yet to start stacking offensive stats, +% at-will/encounter damage on gear is recommended for threat generation.

m= magnitude
TPS = Threat per Second

Cleave : AoE (45m, 0,5s) TPS : 90m
- Threat generated : 45*3,6 = 162m
- Good for AoE combat

Brazen Slash : Stamina Regen (100m, 0,5s) TPS : 200m
- Threat generated : 100*3,6 = 360m
- Single target at-will, great for stamina restoration.

Guarded Strike : (110m, 0,8s) Guarded. TPS : 137,5m
- Threat generated : 110*3,6 = 396m
- Best threat generator while shielding in single target combat

Shield Bash : (40m, 0,7s) Guarded, AoE in line. TPS : 57,1m
- Threat generated : 40*3,6 = 144m
- Nice for holding threat up while shielding in AoE combat

Tide of Iron : +120% threat generation for 10 sec (100m, 1s) TPS : 100m
- Threat generated : 100*3,6 = 360m
- Used to refresh +120% threat regeneration vs single target every 10s
- Note : Threat generation numbers in this post does not have the +120% from ToI added

Threatening Rush : "Increased threat", 800% threat (80m, 0,8s) TPS : 100m
- Threat generated : (80*3,6)*8 = 2304m
- The best threat generator of all our at-wills, I use this both for AoE and single target fights


Encounters :


Shield Slam : AoE (260m, 0,7s, 13,2cd)
- Threat generated : 260*3,6 = 936m
- Pure damage AoE skill

Knee Breaker : ST + 8 sec slow (650m, 0,55s, 15,1cd)
- Threat generated : 650*3,6 = 2340m
- Never used (PvP?)

Bull Charge : AoE/ST + Cleaving Bull (40m) feated (520m, 0,65s, 11,3cd)
- Threat generated : 520*3,6 = 1872m
- AoE opener (Cleaving bull feat), Single Target mobility

Shield Throw : ST + threat feated (800%) (450/325m, 0.65s, 10.9/5,6cd)
- Threat generated : 450*3,6 = 1620m / (325*3,6)*8 = 9360m
- The best single target threat generator (800%)

Anvil of Doom : ST + top threat feated (880m, 0,86s, 17cd)
- Threat generated : 880*3,6 = 3168m
- Used if aggro lost, puts fighter on top of threat table (+10% over current leader)

Enforced Threat : AoE threat -10% awareness 10s (0.55s, 13,2cd)
- NEEDS CONFIRMATION IF WAI

Knight's Challenge : 50% stamina restored, 100m when blocking for 8s (0,75s, 22,6cd)
- Threat generated (when guarding): 100*3,6 = 360m
- I personally never use this, as all stamina issues is handled by my eclipse enchantment

Linebreaker : AoE, "Increased threat", 800% threat (200m, 0,7s, 15,1cd)
- Threat generated : (200*3,6)*8 = 5760m
- The best AoE threat generator (800%)

Iron Warrior : Defensive, reduce damage taken by 20% (1,2s, 22,6cd)
- Extremely good for countering Boss "Tank buster" attacks. (Dmg reduction added to or over defense cap ?)

Knight's Valor : Defensive, closest ally dmg transfer to self, threat generated by closest ally transfered to self (0,2s, 16,4cd)
- Synergy with Steel Recovery, proccs SR every activation


Dailies :


Earthshaker : AoE, 3s stun (1050m, 1.6s, 1000ap)
- Threat generated : 800*3,6 = 2880m
- Not used

Second Wind : +20% HP (increase AND heal same amount), lifesteal for 10s (1,1s, 1000ap)
- Can be used as threat generator if using Manticore's Mane head/Tanners Ring.
- Threat generated (Example 700.000 HP): 350.000*3,6 = 1.260.000m (not affected by any CA or crit, affected by debuffs)
- Above example does not apply +threat from self heal.Current assumption is that 1 HP healed
= 1 threat generated.
- Extreme damage, hitpoints buff and self heal, always slotted

Determination : CC dispel/immunity, +10% dmg (0,8s, 1000ap)
- +10% overall threat generation for 10s

Bladed Rampart : +30% defense, +30% awareness (feat) for 10s (260m when taking hits, 1s, 1000ap)
- Threat generated (when taking hits while active) : 250*3,6 =
- Can crit after changes (bugged before, crit was based on own crit avoidance)
- May be useful for topping off awareness for undergeared players, useless in endgame content.

Phalanx : CC immunity and -20% dmg taken for party inside barrier for 14s (2s, 1000ap)


Mechanics :


Block : Block 40% of own HP in incoming dmg, activate Guarded At-Wills, stamina drain on dmg taken, CC immunity, no stamina regen

Dig In : Block 60% of own HP in incoming dmg, stamina drain on dmg taken, CC immunity, 15% awareness while active, 30% defense while active reduced stamina regen.

Retaliate : AoE, "increased threat", 800% threat generation (300/600m, 1s, 10cd)
- Threat generated : (300*3,6)*8 = / (600*3,6)*8 =
- Extremely good and underrated "4th encounter", can crit after changes (bugged before, crit was based on own crit avoidance)
- Counts as casting encounter power for effects that activate on encounter cast.

Path of the Vanguard : Increased threat generation (360% increase), +40% hit points, -10% damage dealt


Class features :


Greater Endurance : Up to +10% movement speed based on remaining stamina
- Nice for AoE/speedrun loadouts

Vigorous Strikes : Up to +10% crit chance based on remaining stamina
- Very strong feat for DPS oriented builds

Combat Superiority : +10% at-will damage upon activating encounter or daily power
- +10% threat generation from at-wills is always good

Shield Talent : Stamina Regeneration
- Personally find this useless

Ferocious Reaction : Deal 25m damage on deflect
- Threat generated (on deflect): 25*3,6 = 90m

Steel Recovery : Regenerate 5% stamina upon activating encounter or daily power
- Synergy with Knight's Valor

Anvil of Challenge : Anvil of Doom places you on top of threat list (+10% over current aggro target), does not have this effect if charged
- Very good for re-establishing aggro if lost during boss fights. Also 100% needed for tank-swapping when duo tanking

Enduring Warrior : -5% damage taken if below 25% HP
- May have some use in trials after changes


Feats :


Shieldthrower : Shieldthrow +threat modifier increased by 800%, cd reduced to 6s, magnitude reduced to 250
- This feat makes Shieldthrow our best threat generator in single target fights. TOOLTIP WRONG.
Staying power : Should increase at-will threat modifier by another 700% for 6s
- Needs confirmation if WAI

Rising Tide : AoE attacks get +25m dmg for 3 sec upon activating Tide of Iron
- I see absolutely no reason to use this, as Cleaving Bull has the same effect and is a much better AoE opener. Needs testing.
Cleaving Bull : AoE attacks get +40m dmg for 6 sec upon activating Charging Bull
- Threat generated (for AoE attacks, 6 sec duration) : 40*3,6 = 144m
- Makes Charging Bull the best opener for AoE fights. Charge in and spam AoE attacks for 6s, repeat. Confirmed WAI.

Critical Deflection : +10 stamina upon successful deflect if deflect = crit chance. 5s cd
- May have some use if stamina regeneration is an issue
Combat Balance : Up to-10% damage taken if Crit Avoid = Deflect = Awareness
- Very nice in the new system, actually possible to use when awareness needs to be stacked

Sharpened Senses : Bladed Rampart gives +30% awareness
- +30% awareness is very strong for undergeared players
Perfect Block : Determination blocks all attacks at 0 stamina cost for 10s and gets 180cd
- Makes the CD on Determination too long for it to have any practical use in current state of game. Useless

Shake It Off : Retaliate gets up to +300m dmg based on remaining stamina
- Makes one of our best threat generators even better, no-brainer.
Deep Breathing : +4% dmg and inc heal for 10s every 3s spent dug in, stacks 3 times
- This simply takes too long to have any practical use in party combat, +12% damage dealt in solo play is very handy tho.


General :


Unshakable Shieldarm : +10% critical avoidance when blocking (edit : Now works during Dig In)
- WAI
Tactician's Edge : Up to +10% CA based on remaining stamina
- WAI
Marathon Runner : +10 movement speed out of combat
- Excellent

If comparing above information to this thread, it is obvious that we have got a boost to our damage, threat generation, survivability and a lot of minor bug fixes.

wilbur626

For those that are curious about the combat changes and how stats will work, I recommend checking out @rainer#8575 s video "Neverwinter: Stats Rework - Full Guide" on youtube.

wilbur626

Edited Unshakable Shieldarm, Dig In, Bladed Rampart and Sharpened Senses description

zimxero

wilbur626 said:

Class features :


Shield Talent : Stamina Regeneration
- Personally find this useless

Great summary wilbur.

Just a note on Shield Talent. This is a general class feature, so DPS has it too. It is too weak to weak for a tank to slot, so DPS will certainly not. There are too many skills like this that are completely unused, and never get looked at during balancing, since fixing "nothing" isn't a high priority.


example of an improvement: If stamina is depleted to zero, gain 5% of health as temporary health, 5% faster Stamina gain, and 5% increased at-will damage. Effect lasts until stamina fully recovers, which refreshes the effect.

rjc9000

wilbur626 said:

Guarded Strike : (110m, 0,8s) Guarded. TPS : 137,5m
- Threat generated : 110*3,6 = 396m
- Best threat generator while shielding in single target combat

Shield Bash : (40m, 0,7s) Guarded, AoE in line. TPS : 57,1m
- Threat generated : 40*3,6 = 144m
- Nice for holding threat up while shielding in AoE combat

I can't think of any (reasonable) situation where you want to be attacking with these powers at all.

If you want to block for bosses, you are preparing for a big hit. Therefore, you want to use the squat. Otherwise, you should be taking most attacks to the face such that you need a healer babysitting your HP Bar, to enforce the tank/healer/DPS thing of other MMOs.

If you want to build aggro, you want to use your attacks like Shield Throw, Threatening Rush, or Cleaving Bull, ergo, you want to use attacks outside of Guard.

If you want to block while moving, you can simply hold down Guard and move around, or jump and squat to where you need to go.

If you are playing DPS, you have stronger At-wills available to kill things with. And most attacks are supposed to be entirely avoided or are easily survivable without blocking, meaning that there is no situation on DPS where you want to be using these attacks .

The only time I could see these attacks being useful is if you're going to die, have popped second wind, and need to refill your HP via attacking. But desperation situations like that can be avoided through better play. And even in those situations, due to the scaled back damage of Mod 20, your guarding At-wills aren't going to give good Second Wind heals. You may as well just use your regular attacks to proc Second Wind, or you already planned around these situation and have Tanner Ring/Reflect damage prepared.

wilbur626 said:

Knight's Challenge : 50% stamina restored, 100m when blocking for 8s (0,75s, 22,6cd)
- Threat generated (when guarding): 100*3,6 = 360m
- I personally never use this, as all stamina issues is handled by my eclipse enchantment

You should check if KC will proc off of damage absorbed by the squat, given that Unbreakable Shieldarm now works on the squat.

Also, while the Stamina refill is a somewhat useful tool to have in your pocket, the damage procs are basically useless. You have substantially stronger aggro powers (Shield Throw, arguably Knight's Valor if running with some good Arbiters/Trappers/Barbies with brains) available to you, so the only reason you'd care about KC for the damage procs is for some reflect tank fantasy.

I would rather see KC moved to the DPS side, with Into the Fray taking the place of KC on the tank path. Then, change ITF to only refill 50% of the player's stamina and KC to proc off of the player attacks.

Into the Fray would still provide that Stamina refill tool, but have a somewhat more distinct secondary effect in the movespeed bonus, like using ITF for your party in preparation for mechanics that require the team to move quickly.

While KC on the DPS path could open up some variety for encounter powers, in the sense that it could be an encounter power used to fish for more Crushing Blow procs, rather than being yet another "hit enemy with one big hit" type attack.

wilbur626 said:

Knight's Valor : Defensive, closest ally dmg transfer to self, threat generated by closest ally transfered to self (0,2s, 16,4cd)
- Synergy with Steel Recovery, proccs SR every activation

While it's not fit for general purpose use like Shield Throw+Shield Thrower or Anvil+Anvil of Challenge is, it is useful in very specific situations.

You can throw it on your Arbiters/Trappers at the start of combat, meaning you're piggybacking your aggro off a ridiculously strong DPS, on top of your Threatening Rush spam/Retaliate, to build up a huge aggro lead. Does require some positioning manipulation to make use of.

Very useful on offtanks to cover a player for specific mechanics. You can throw it on the main tank to help reduce some of the pressure on the healers, throw it on a player about to be hit by a big hit but has multiple revive sickness stacks, or can throw it on your healer for when you have a greedy HRWF/Barbie that refuses to move red areas out of the way
.

While you won't have to use KV all the time, it's not that bad so as long as you have the prediction skills to get a sense for when it makes a difference.

wilbur626 said:

Shield Talent : Stamina Regeneration
- Personally find this useless

It's *still* a 2% Stamina Regen bonus, as per the tooltips.
I don't think you can feel the difference with or without Shield Talent slotted.

wilbur626 said:

Staying power : Should increase at-will threat modifier by another 700% for 6s
- Needs confirmation if WAI
Rising Tide : AoE attacks get +25m dmg for 3 sec upon activating Tide of Iron
- I see absolutely no reason to use this, as Cleaving Bull has the same effect and is a much better AoE opener. Needs testing.
Critical Deflection : +10 stamina upon successful deflect if deflect = crit chance. 5s cd
- May have some use if stamina regeneration is an issue
Perfect Block : Determination blocks all attacks at 0 stamina cost for 10s and gets 180cd
- Makes the CD on Determination too long for it to have any practical use in current state of game. Useless

Staying Power was Aggressive Guard in the beta and you should check if the guarding At-wills gain bonus aggro after using ET. Though even if that was the case, most wouldn't use it due to how bad the guarding At-wills are and how useful Shield Throw is as a spammable ranged aggro tool.

Rising Tide is bad because ... Cleaving Bull basically does the same thing, but allows you to get into combat quicker. Oh, and it has a very silly, nonindicative name (hm, why does that sound familiar on GF?).

Critical Deflection is bad because of its long ICD and inability to recover Stamina while blocking. You may as well just hold down Brazen Slash for Stamina regen, since that (consistently) recovers Stamina (at a faster pace) without blocking.

Perfect Block is actually somewhat similar to KV: it sucks for general purpose use, but is fantastic if you can predict you will need it. You can use Perfect Block on Haruman/Olanthius if your team is worrying about epeen charts and kills one angel with overkill damage. While the enrage bonus will normally kill you, using Perfect Block will just let you eat their at-wills and laugh. If the duration of Perfect Block isn't enough for the rest of the phase and the remaining angel isn't killed fast enough, you probably failed that DPS check anyways.

sagakaiyume

Really wish they would put back a magnitude on enforced threat that they took away after mod 15 =/ I still tend to just use KV instead of it during mobs since there's always that one rogue that smoke bombs the enemies and makes our retaliation useless and Enforced threat still has the mobs just run by us as soon as someone hits.

stark760

They took away magnitude from enforced threat. They made KV have a down time and only protect closest person in party, not entire party anymore. They nerfed ITF, then removed it so it's only on DPS spec. They nerfed commander strike, and then put it only on DPS spec. They removed our mark from the tab button to actually pull threat, and gave us another block. Now the HP bonus to be cut in half also from being tank. Someone in development doesn't like GF tanks...sorry, FIGHTER tanks.

wilbur626

stark760 said:

They took away magnitude from enforced threat. They made KV have a down time and only protect closest person in party, not entire party anymore. They nerfed ITF, then removed it so it's only on DPS spec. They nerfed commander strike, and then put it only on DPS spec. They removed our mark from the tab button to actually pull threat, and gave us another block. Now the HP bonus to be cut in half also from being tank. Someone in development doesn't like GF tanks...sorry, FIGHTER tanks.

Care to eleborate on this ?

stark760

wilbur626 said:

stark760 said:

They took away magnitude from enforced threat. They made KV have a down time and only protect closest person in party, not entire party anymore. They nerfed ITF, then removed it so it's only on DPS spec. They nerfed commander strike, and then put it only on DPS spec. They removed our mark from the tab button to actually pull threat, and gave us another block. Now the HP bonus to be cut in half also from being tank. Someone in development doesn't like GF tanks...sorry, FIGHTER tanks.

Care to eleborate on this ?

Which part? The changes that they've made? Or are going to? From what I've read and seen, HP bonus for tanks being dropped to 20% from 40%. The rest of those changes happened in mod 16 I believe, or had changes made in some earlier mods, and then nerfed to the ground, then removed form tank spec altogether. Just remove the encounter. Why leave it on only the DPS, when maybe 5% of DPS fighters use ITF. Same with Commander Strike, the only ability a fighter gets that makes a target take more damage(helps the party). Now it's only on DPS spec. Our tab was actually something to mark enemies, draw threat, and make them take more damage from the "hard" mark. Now we get 2 blocks, no taunt. KV used to protect entire party, and didn't have to be recast unless stunned and had it knocked off. Now it protects only closest person, for 1/2 uptime. Many other things too.

wilbur626

stark760 said:

wilbur626 said:

stark760 said:

They took away magnitude from enforced threat. They made KV have a down time and only protect closest person in party, not entire party anymore. They nerfed ITF, then removed it so it's only on DPS spec. They nerfed commander strike, and then put it only on DPS spec. They removed our mark from the tab button to actually pull threat, and gave us another block. Now the HP bonus to be cut in half also from being tank. Someone in development doesn't like GF tanks...sorry, FIGHTER tanks.

Care to eleborate on this ?

Which part? The changes that they've made? Or are going to? From what I've read and seen, HP bonus for tanks being dropped to 20% from 40%. The rest of those changes happened in mod 16 I believe, or had changes made in some earlier mods, and then nerfed to the ground, then removed form tank spec altogether. Just remove the encounter. Why leave it on only the DPS, when maybe 5% of DPS fighters use ITF. Same with Commander Strike, the only ability a fighter gets that makes a target take more damage(helps the party). Now it's only on DPS spec. Our tab was actually something to mark enemies, draw threat, and make them take more damage from the "hard" mark. Now we get 2 blocks, no taunt. KV used to protect entire party, and didn't have to be recast unless stunned and had it knocked off. Now it protects only closest person, for 1/2 uptime. Many other things too.

Fighter is the strongest tank.
The reduction to HP bonus from tank paragon is in line with the whole combat system change, not an issue at all.
Fighter has the highest threat generation, no need for mark.
DPS does not need "help" from tank when it comes to damage dealing.
Fighter TAB power is one of the strongest threat generators they have. Removal of mark not an issue.
What you have read and seen is all wrong, you need to check your sources.

stark760

Yeah, the fighter has the highest threat generation...and usually people want the DPS speed spec until you get to a boss. Sorry you don;t know about the nerfs they've done to the class since mod 5. Checking sources isn't going to change the hard truth about changes they've already made. ITF used to give damage bonus to party upto tank damage resist...they nerfed to 30% and upto 35% with a perk. Then they nerfed again, and took away all DPS to party from it, and then removed from tank altogether. Each can have their opinion. The fact that most tanks quit in mod 16 shows what they thought of it. Can the class be played? Yes. Is it even close to what it was? Nope. Why does the DPS spec get a party speed boost then? Or the only encounter that makes the entire party hit harder? Just remove the encounter altogether then, and give the DPS 2 new encounters. You can call changes "in line with the whole combat change", but many are still going to be upset that they lvled comps for HP, insignias, etc to lose 1/2 the bonus they paid for.

wilbur626

@stark760 , I think m6 and m16 feedback is in a different section of the forums.

stark760

wilbur626 said:

@stark760 , I think m6 and m16 feedback is in a different section of the forums.

I was responding to someone elses post about adding back magnitude to Enforced threat and KV issues. Sorry to intrude on your turf.

sagakaiyume

@wilbur626 I'd like to hear your opinion on whether you think asking for ET for a magnitude similar to templar's wrath is fair and in-line, specially with the new dungeon being mob heavy, along with getting bladed rampart's def changed back to damage reduction, as pally now has it available as an option.

wilbur626

sagakaiyume#0847 said:

@wilbur626 I'd like to hear your opinion on whether you think asking for ET for a magnitude similar to templar's wrath is fair and in-line, specially with the new dungeon being mob heavy, along with getting bladed rampart's def changed back to damage reduction, as pally now has it available as an option.

Regarding Enforced Threat : I think that this skill should have its effect/tooltip clarified, as I cant figure out what the "-10% awareness" thing does. If mobs actually had awareness, this would mean they would take 10% more damage when party in combat advantage. That would be worth more than adding magnitude.The feat connected to this skill also doesnt do what its supposed to do. Another option is for it to trigger weapon enchantments instead of adding magnitude.

Regarding Bladed Rampart : The changes to this daily makes absolutely no sense to me. Getting Defense to 90% and awareness to 75% is the first thing to prioritize for a Fighter Vanguard. Having a daily that gives us 30% of those two stats temporarily is just a wasted daily, as all Vanguards should focus on those stats anyway. Removing the stat gains and upping the magnitude for AoE loadouts or focusing on Deflect/Deflect Severity (severity very hard to find sources for) would make a lot more sense.

wilbur626

Edited Bladed Rampart and Sharpened Senses description

wilbur626

Question :

In @deadmano#4272 interview with the Lead Systems Designer (32:23 in this inverview https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CdAiouwYLkE&t=0s), @noworries#8859 states that "I can not give the exact spesifics just because I dont have the numbers memorized".
noworries also states that the current threat modifier for tanks is 4x. The modifiers were supposedly changed during the Combat Ratings rework, is this incorrect ?

If @noworries#8859 or @nitocris83 could provide the correct numbers for threat generation, that would save a lot of training dummy lives!