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What about the one-man armies
melechest
Member Posts: 106 Arc User
There are quite a few people in the game that are literally one-man armies and, mostly, they are high item level dps. And by high, generally dps that reach 22-23k item level just start becoming one-man armies, getting worse and worse as character becomes stronger. Many dps are able to just run through and massacre everything in a dungeon without any care in the world, even just jumping straight at the face of a boss before the tank, leaving the tank struggling to get and hold aggro. How long are people going to be able to do this?
For a long time now as a tank i feel mostly useless, most of the times they dont even need to me to finish the dungeon.
For as long as ive played mmo-rpgs, i always played tanks. And after investing a lot of time and a lot of effort on my tank, getting to a very strong level, i feel almost useless. Ive never felt that in any other game. And i have stopped having any fun running dungeons, because i dont get to do much, 99% of the times i dont need to do anything. Are tanks going to become relevant and needed at some point? Really, tanks are only mandatory on Zariel, tomm and for the bosses in IC.
I love this game, but ive been thinking for some time now to just leave. As a tank i feel mostly useless, and, after the investment ive done on my pally, i dont want to go and start leveling up a dps. Especially because i enjoy playing tanks and i dont enjoy at all playing dps.
And, really, the bosses hitting for 1 million on each hit or be full with one-shots isnt doing anything other than making the lives of the tanks and the healers miserable.
If any developer reads this, please tell if this is going to stop or if i just have to suck it up and take my leave.
EDIT
Okey, a lot of people here are saying the same things, so instead of answering them again and again read this please.
Ima 27.7k paladin tank. I got no problem dealing damage, i got no issue taking damage, i got no issue holding aggro and i can outrun most people. BUT, dps have ways to get ahead. Either be it because of sprinting (barbies and warlocks) or because they have dodge mechanics, and yeah, dodge is not the same as sprinting, but it serves the purpose of moving ahead of the tank.
My problem is not that im useless because im weak, but i feel useless because most of the times the dps will sprint/dodge or whatever ahead of me, destroy everything in a matter of seconds, destroy the bosses very fast, and i end up doing almost nothing in the whole dungeon.
And this is not fun. Not fun at all.
And im not talking about low level content, in my experience, in lomm and IC its most of the times the same story.
I like this game and i want to have fun in it. Im not saying do this or do that.
Im asking a simple question, will dps stop being able to tank and massacre everything or do i take my leave?
For a long time now as a tank i feel mostly useless, most of the times they dont even need to me to finish the dungeon.
For as long as ive played mmo-rpgs, i always played tanks. And after investing a lot of time and a lot of effort on my tank, getting to a very strong level, i feel almost useless. Ive never felt that in any other game. And i have stopped having any fun running dungeons, because i dont get to do much, 99% of the times i dont need to do anything. Are tanks going to become relevant and needed at some point? Really, tanks are only mandatory on Zariel, tomm and for the bosses in IC.
I love this game, but ive been thinking for some time now to just leave. As a tank i feel mostly useless, and, after the investment ive done on my pally, i dont want to go and start leveling up a dps. Especially because i enjoy playing tanks and i dont enjoy at all playing dps.
And, really, the bosses hitting for 1 million on each hit or be full with one-shots isnt doing anything other than making the lives of the tanks and the healers miserable.
If any developer reads this, please tell if this is going to stop or if i just have to suck it up and take my leave.
EDIT
Okey, a lot of people here are saying the same things, so instead of answering them again and again read this please.
Ima 27.7k paladin tank. I got no problem dealing damage, i got no issue taking damage, i got no issue holding aggro and i can outrun most people. BUT, dps have ways to get ahead. Either be it because of sprinting (barbies and warlocks) or because they have dodge mechanics, and yeah, dodge is not the same as sprinting, but it serves the purpose of moving ahead of the tank.
My problem is not that im useless because im weak, but i feel useless because most of the times the dps will sprint/dodge or whatever ahead of me, destroy everything in a matter of seconds, destroy the bosses very fast, and i end up doing almost nothing in the whole dungeon.
And this is not fun. Not fun at all.
And im not talking about low level content, in my experience, in lomm and IC its most of the times the same story.
I like this game and i want to have fun in it. Im not saying do this or do that.
Im asking a simple question, will dps stop being able to tank and massacre everything or do i take my leave?
Post edited by melechest on
4
Comments
So to see if your tank is scaled too much to be useful, check your IL in the dungeon. If you are over the max IL then lower your gear. you can either remove gear or just use older gear. That way, your Defense and Power are not scaled too far back to make you ineffective as a tank.
As for your one man army theory...The end game dungeons are not easy. 27k IL does not mean the DPS is good enough to do TOMM nor Zariel. Those are tough.
Still if i run on any of my dps klasses especially on the hr, there is no way for the tank or other dps to do anything since everything gets killed in 2 seconds. Only exceptions are the dungeons you mentioned so i agree.
But i Think it should be like that with a fully maxed charakter. If it wasnt like that i dont have any reason to gear up my char and that would mean the end of the game for me.
Similar goes for defensive stats, before HP goes into the question.
Now, you have to balance the dungeons for players that differ in both damage output and survivability somewhere between 10 to 20 times... or more. That is not exactly easy task, especially if you want weak players to have a chance to participate - and prevent the boss monsters form fainting just because a strong player entered the door...
There is a solid reason to have dungeon tiers. Because without them you either eliminate personal growth completely, or end up in vastly different experiences. Like some players are getting wiped by a single mob, while other players can solo bosses.
So yes - different tiers of dungeons would help, but I am afraid we no longer have enough of player base to fill those.
Is this the right answer or the answer your looking for? Probably not. But it's how I adjusted to continue having fun as tank in lower content. I actually adjust all my toons for lower content when running it. When doing RTQ each day I take my tank simply because I found a way to make it fun for me!
Results may vary!
@merik1999 Apparently you havent seen a good dps just solo flying through dungeons. Temple of the spider, Grey wolf den, you name it, ive seen dps killing a boss in mere seconds. So much about scaling. As for the end-game dungeons, IC and tomm, with a decent team, are very easy.
@reg1981 I explained why i feel useless. And, yeah, thats not the answer i was looking. To be honest, i prefer combat insignia bonuses and mount bonuses rather than movement speed, my job is not to be a sprinter. And my real issue, the thing that i hate, is that dps shouldnt be able to run ahead, murder everything in 2 seconds and get away with it. This is what ruins my fun, dps will just run ahead and i end up doing very little in the whole dungeon. A dps shouldnt be able to tank neither the mobs nor the boss in any dungeon, no matter the difficulty, but a lot of dps can do it.
And, honestly, ive never seen, in any game, the dps being able to do that. In every other game ive played, if the dps runs ahead, they die.
You state that you're a 27+k IL tank, 'very strong', experienced, etc. Then how come you have ignored another poster's factual observation that current end-game dungeons ToMM and Zariel's are *very* difficult, and absolutely require competent tanks, and where DPS aren't face-rolling the content? I do wonder if you've actually set foot in those places because if you had, you'd be aware of this fact.
As for whether ive been in there or not, I have cleared tomm a few times, though i avoid it because i dont like it at all, i dont like dungeons/trials that are single boss fights, they are very boring to me. But all the clears ive done were easy-mode, even when carrying tomm newbies. As for Zariel, i have been in there, but i dont run it for 2 reasons, first i dont like it, second its not worth the effort, the weapons dont offer anything for tanks, so i have no reason to farm it.
You, me, the people that talked about those dungeons/trials, we know nothing about "facts". We only judge from personal experience. And personal experience is a far cry from claiming "facts".
And, really i didnt even start talking about what has gone wrong or what can be done to fix the game. I have made another post stating my ideas on those. Im only asking a question. Whether the face-rolling will stop or not.
Tanks in NW actually only got two defensive advantages: A 3x hate multiplier(to keep aggro), and a 2x hp multiplier(to improve survivability).
Beyond those the increased survivability for tanks is supposed to come from allocating their stats more towards defensive stats.
The problem is that when the dps are getting close to max IL, they also got a lot of stat points to put into defensive stats while still staying capped on the offensive stats. This makes their ability to take damage approach the tanks damage resistance, only with lower hp. And they still have their full offensive power.
Two suggested ways to fix this:
* Jack up the zone stat caps even further without compensating with gear. That would force the dps to move their stat points away from defensive stats and to a larger extent make them glass cannons. This would make the tanks defensive stat allocation more meaningful.
* Or give tanks an inbuilt 50% damage resistance and double the damage of all dungeon mobs.
Currently the tanks do not have enough built-in advantages, and that let the dps become very tanky.
DPS cap ( and CAN ONLY cap ) one defensive stat and that is Defense. Capping Defense comes with sacrifices on almost every available DPS build in the game, the rest of your survivability comes from a combination of investing into a higher HP pool, Barkshield enchantment, having good supports and not playing like a complete waffle. A well optimised DPS build barely caps all their relevant stats and is by far the hardest spec to reach stat caps with unless you are a Tank that wants to cap every single stat except Awareness and still have a million HP.
DPS survivability is not even remotely comparable to a Tank or a Healer in actual content, period. And no, scaled dungeons are not relevant in any way,shape or form when discussing end game characters.
Have fun!
.... or else.
A BiS dps character will have enough points in defensive stats besides capping defense that he got a significant level of damage resistance, which is what allows dps characters to poke their head out in front of the tank without getting it cut off
To let the tanks do their role properly and be needed, dps character defenses must be reduced to a point where they die quickly if they do not have the tank taking hits for them.
> @zyronax observations? yes. Factual? no. I didnt say anything about Zariel, cause its really the only difficult trial in the game. And for tomm and IC, depending on the group, are very easy. <snip>
I see a lot of "I don't like it" in your response. You are entitled to your own preferences....Just like everyone else.
As for the highlighted part of your response above, it tells me all I need to know about your credibility.
> (Quote)
> Learn to read. I did not say 'cap', I said 'put into' and 'approach'.
>
> A BiS dps character will have enough points in defensive stats besides capping defense that he got a significant level of damage resistance, which is what allows dps characters to poke their head out in front of the tank without getting it cut off
>
> To let the tanks do their role properly and be needed, dps character defenses must be reduced to a point where they die quickly if they do not have the tank taking hits for them.
Are you truly that eager to accelerate this game's death trajectory? 🙂
umm ok
I said that in response to someone talking about dps not being able to run ahead in lower item level dungeons. If you read what i say in this post, i have seen dps being able to do it both in lomm and IC, and these are by no means old content. The one thing im asking is for the dps to not have enough survivability to be able to run ahead.
And yeah, tbh, what I want as a tank and im pretty sure every player wants that, is to be relevant and needed in all content. Whats the problem with wanting that? And, really, what is the point of a role existing in the game solely to be really needed for 3-4 dungeons at best? No reason. At that point they can just remove that role and just trim down the content that this class is needed for so they are not needed in there either.
And dont forget, the point of scaling is for older content to be a challenge even to end-game/close to end-game toons. Though scaling is poorly designed. Go in an old dungeon and remove your gear, you will see what i mean.
@zyronax
I dont come in here claiming "facts", like other people do. As i said, no player can claim facts because everything we "know" comes from our personal own opinion. And im stating my opinion.
As for my "credibility", you may have found both tomm and IC difficult and they were difficult when they came out. But when a group can finish IC in 20-25 mins and tomm in 10 mins, they are not that difficult anymore, with a decent group. I made it bold so you dont miss it again.
Before Mod 19 my Tank regularly outperformed endgame healers. Now I cannot even heal my companion after getting Shield of Faith useless. Most Justicars don't even realize we got the biggest nerf.
And why? Because Healers complained..... "Tank should not..." whatever. So why Tank cannot demand DPS should not be able.. ?!
I see same logic.
Nowadays when I am forced to do DPS to be useful, I cannot heal anymore, there are a lot of DPS that say "Tank should not..."
Yea....
And still there are DPS players out there dealing so much damage that make one of the biggest hitting tanks struggling on Aggro sometimes.
The Problem is. The players declined the changes, that Tank is something special. When Mod 19 gone live, before big AoE nerfs happened. I was last man standing as tank. My team got shot by AoE's not by any damage of hit.
It's a lost game. The players don't want to die. And why should they? It's an action based RPG.
From my perspective. Stop this logic. The tank is the one that would loose this game. Not allowed to deal damage or heal. No one want to play this. Raise damage and remove tank. Thanks. Tankbuster is nothing anyone want to play.
Edit: since scaling the game is NOT fun anymore!
smells like bs to me
On Top of that I got blocked by other players for fulfilling healing role as tank, while holding aggro, and dealt good amount of damage and no deaths. That's the community reality. Players feel threatened by being outperformed.
I outperformed 200K Power DPS with Paladin Healer. Not only one time. And players feel threatened. It's a player thing and not a balance thing. This will always happen. And that's why I decline the changes to Rock Paper Scissors - Roles are oldschool and not good.
Feel free to try to convince anyone that having 3 or more times less effective HP, 3.5 to 4 times less chance to deflect attacks and having a 30-45% chance of being critically hit compared to being immune to critical hits ( all Tanks are ) on a completely maxed out, extremely optimised DPS build is somehow equal to *approaching* the survivability of a Tank.
Play end game more, exaggerate less.
The quick and easy solution to your problem is to join a guild and run with guildmates and alliance members. These runs will go much better than random queue's with random players. It's always a gamble when you Pug. Sometimes you get lucky in a pug and it goes awesome but other times it's a nightmare. I would much rather be in a dungeon with a One Man Army who clears everything, than to be stuck in a dungeon at the first boss for 2 hours. You are lucky if all your dungeon runs are you running after a One Man Army and picking up all the drops. If you had to suffer through the hours I've spent in pugs that resulted in Abandon Dungeons then you would thank your lucky stars.
Why should 5-7 year old dungeons from many mods ago be difficult for an endgame player in 2020?
There is nothing wrong with players being able to finish random queue's in a reasonable amount of time and I don't see why you want to punish the whole community because you lack MOVEMENT SPEED.
Nothing wrong with wanting a challenge, and wanting the run to go smooth, and the way it should with the tank leading and grabbing aggro first. But it is within our own power to take matters into our own hands, and form our own groups, and adjust the difficulty to Hardcore, if we find the dungeon run too easy. Nothing is stopping you from enjoying the game the way you want to but you. Please do not force everyone to play the way you want because you refuse to play the way you want, unless everyone else is forced to play your way. There should be many different ways to play and no right or wrong way. If a run is not to your liking it is within your power to leave the run and start a run with like minded players.
System1)
When in a group, you take 25% more damage unless you are near a tank.
When in a group, healing items take 50% longer to recharge unless you are near a healer or a campfire.
While this could accomplish objectives.. its not gonna force tanks and healers to do their job.. nothing will. It also reduces the logical feel of the game. It would not make sense to be strong when solo.. but join a clone of yourself in combat and you become weak.
System2)
Healers do no damage and are the only source of healing.
Tanks draw all aggro, never die unless their team dies, and deal no damage.
This forces a rigid need for tanks and healers in teams but destroys solo play.
I see lots of complaints here and no solutions.
99% of the time i run with friends who happen to be, like me, end game or close to end-game. And you really dont understand my problem. I dont feel useless because im weak and i need someone to carry me. I feel useless because people can just run ahead and clear everything in 1-2 seconds. And there is no fun in just running behind and picking up drops. I dont do dungeons just to run the whole time. As for hardcore, yeah, doesnt make any difference, minimum item level, close to no difference.
And im not trying to force the community to play how i want, the dps force me to play how they want, because most of the times they run ahead and clear everything really fast and i dont have much to do.
You said that i dont have enough movement speed. Guess what, regarding movement speed ive only seen very few people running faster than me. But guess what, tanks cant use their stamina to move faster like the dps can do. And even if im faster than a dps, the dps can just go ahead by using their sprint/dodge skills.
And really, you are missing some very fundamental things. First, the job of the dps is not to be able to tank mobs or bosses in dungeons, thats the job of the TANK. If the dps can do that, then what the hell are tanks supposed to do? The dps can do our job, do we just stand there doing nothing? Yeah, huge amounts of fun.
Second, at no point did i say that you shouldnt be able to finish randoms in a reasonable amount of time. You shouldnt also be able to clear dungeons in 8-9 minutes and i have done that so many times. Not did i say that older content should be hard for end-gamers. But at least they should provide a challenge.
And its not myself who stops me from having fun. Its the dps that can solo everything in a dungeon and i dont get to do anything. And its the old content which is, outside of lomm, 100% of the random dungeons and trials and doesnt provide any challenge at all. Or do i have to run IC/lomm/tomm/zariel until my eyes start bleeding?
Really, dont throw at me things like "dont force everyone to do what you want to do" or "you dont have enough movement speed" when the only thing im saying is that dps should be able to do their job and only that. That they should be able to do my job.
Seriously, have you ever played any other mmo-rpg? Have you ever seen in any other mmo-rpg dps being able to tank mobs and bosses and wipe everything in mere seconds? Because i have never seen that in any game.
@Melechest perhaps those MMOs more fit to your play style and you should just abandon NW? I am not out to insult or troll but NW have a spectrum of contents where it is "easy" to "hard" dungeons/trials for the range of players. With the release of Redeemed Citadel weekly HC dungeons, all I see in /lfg, zone, private chats are request for heals or tank.
I am not sure what you are advocating or pushing to change, to make every dungeons where tank/heal is a must have? I mean this could spell the death of the game for most players who need these "easy" contents for their daily ADs.