They will reduce Halaster stats, HP and damage in TOMM

unbarb

Now that the Tower of the Mad Mage is 1 year old, they will reduce Halaster stats, HP and damage in TOMM so more players can get their Lionheart Weapon set and rings to be ready for Zariel Challenge.
I think it is a good move because this trial felt overwhelming for new players and veterans since its release.

hastati96

I don't think this is a good idea. If you make TOMM easier people won't be prepared for Zariel. They may have the weapons for it but thats maybe 10% of what is needed to beat Zariel. Full R15 + 500k HP on DPS, basically being best in slot, most players don't have these stats. People have to learn mechanics, show teamwork and do trainings. This will be skipped if you reduce Halaster's dmg output, HP etc.

If you can't beat TOMM in its current state you will have no chance to beat Zariel, having Lionheart weapons or not.

Btw there will be a story version of Zariel so everyone will be able to experience it, no need to run the currently released Zariel version.

xenocide

Don't really need to reduce the stats since you are Gaining more stats from all the new gear and weapons that continue to come out

reg1981

No need to reduce it if your building your character! New gear is coming, new weapons are out that will help get there. For years we've had content that took no organization or training to figure it out. As mentioned above, this requires teamwork and training. I have many that I train with weekly and we still can't finish, but we WILL get there! And I've been doing tomm training 2 nights a week for months. Not for me, but for others.

Many of my runs to get my Lionheart weapons were done with 4 people using old weapons. Training got us there. I still see groups with 9 with lionheart and cant' finish it.

If you can get a group that will learn the mechanics, that group will finish. Even with weaker DPS, you'll finish. If your team doesn't learn the mechanics, gets to phase 4 with skulls(revive sickness), you won't have the juice to beat Halaster.

A technique I use now is the mini map. When phase 3 starts and the platform is coming up I ALWAYS move to the right side of my minimap. Why? Because I'll be behind the boss when he spawns. I can get in position, wait my 3 seconds for my mad mage set buff to be up, by then the boss is becoming attackable. From the other side of the platform your where the tank should be, now you have to move, there goes your buff.

Final phase, you need to be watching Halaster. He spawns, disappears, then spawns attackable. That first spawn gives you insight to the direction he'll be facing. Your group NEEDS to be in position, you dont' have much time. If everyone has to move into position once halaster is attackable, you've likely failed that DPS check.

There are other techniques that come once the mechanics are learned, then tomm starts to get fun and you can put the wet wipes away and relax a bit.

rikitaki

TOMM, like Zariel, is a group exercise where each individual is expected to move to the designated spot every time the signal light appears. For this... some people consider it appealing, others find it appalling.

Well, anyway, there is a need for making this trial digestible for a wider audience - because M19 completely messed up with weapon sets. The one for currency is pointless, trying to get a set from the maps is extremely unhealthy for your sanity... and Zariel is a brand new top challenge - so not for masses.
At the same time, TOMM was always presented as difficult and challenging, so there was a non-insignificant part of the player-base with an attitude "nah, I can live without even trying it".

Sum it up - and devs manoeuvred themselves into a corner. They could fold on the weapon side, but that would leave TOMM as a marginal interest trial probably forever. Making TOMM more forgiving might convince more people to give it a try.

And to the post above... "if you do not make mistakes and flawlessly follow the best pattern, TOMM is easy" is exactly why a lot of people do not bother even with training runs.

nooneatza

The mentality of "if i am not immediately good at something i am no longer interested" is unhealthy in all aspects of life.

Make a progression group(a very common thing in mmos) and go at it, laugh at your friends when they die, have fun with it.
Tomm is already not hard once you get an idea of the mechanics.

tom

its already way easier then when it launched, and it will become easier automatically with every new piece of gear released, there is really no need to nerf the trial itself.

gabrieldourden

I think it's a good idea. The vast majority of players in Neverwinter doesn't have the time or dedication to spend weeks for training. Neverwinter has always been a casual game and I guess they're trying to cater to the vast majority of the playerbase.

wintersmoke

hastati96 said:

I don't think this is a good idea. If you make TOMM easier people won't be prepared for Zariel. They may have the weapons for it but thats maybe 10% of what is needed to beat Zariel. Full R15 + 500k HP on DPS, basically being best in slot, most players don't have these stats. People have to learn mechanics, show teamwork and do trainings. This will be skipped if you reduce Halaster's dmg output, HP etc.

If you can't beat TOMM in its current state you will have no chance to beat Zariel, having Lionheart weapons or not.

Btw there will be a story version of Zariel so everyone will be able to experience it, no need to run the currently released Zariel version.

Will the story version drop the same rewards?

rikitaki

tom#6998 said:

its already way easier then when it launched, and it will become easier automatically with every new piece of gear released, there is really no need to nerf the trial itself.

Hush! Devs might hear you! ...you forgot their beloved scaling...

rikitaki

nooneatza said:

Make a progression group(a very common thing in mmos) and go at it, laugh at your friends when they die, have fun with it.

Tomm is already not hard once you get an idea of the mechanics.

I find the design appalling. That is why I did not try to run the trial even when my HR became a capable dps after the latest balance update. As you said, with a correct group a lot of issues can be alleviated and turned into fun, but the core design is a core design and it is just not for me.

Don't take me wrong - I do not have any hard feelings to the devs or designers on this part. It is impossible to make something totally universal, to everybody tastes.

jules

> @nooneatza said:
> The mentality of "if i am not immediately good at something i am no longer interested" is unhealthy in all aspects of life.
>
> Make a progression group(a very common thing in mmos) and go at it, laugh at your friends when they die, have fun with it.
> Tomm is already not hard once you get an idea of the mechanics.



The idea that only people that are new and/or have a lack of will/dedication don't/can't run tomm is a bit off.


But I do think that time already makes everything easier (with our kind of vertical progression) so imo there is no need to reduce it.

oldtimer

End game content should never be catered to or designed with the average player in mind, nor should it be nerfed after release to make it more accessible, ever.

If the average player cannot complete ToMM now or 5 mods from now then they should not be able to complete ToMM until they figure out how to or natural power creep over time reaches the tipping point and allows them to finish, simple as that.

mentinmindmaker

If they want to make ToMM easier the way should not be to dumbly reduce stats/hp/damage, but to ease up on the mechanics requirements so ToMM is learnable without extensive runs on the Test server.

Personally I have skipped ToMM because that kind of content and having to do mass training runs to become a perfect robot does not agree with my sense of fun. IC was OK.. I learned that while wiping on it the usual way. On the job training is ok

wintersmoke

oldtimer#7525 said:

End game content should never be catered to or designed with the average player in mind, nor should it be nerfed after release to make it more accessible, ever.

If the average player cannot complete ToMM now or 5 mods from now then they should not be able to complete ToMM until they figure out how to or natural power creep over time reaches the tipping point and allows them to finish, simple as that.

So TOMM should never be added to the Random Queue?

nooneatza

> @wintersmoke said:
> (Quote)
> So TOMM should never be added to the Random Queue?

Tomm is a piece of content that cant be completed on the first try without having people carrying, it wont be in random q anytime soon

tassedethe13

unbarb said:

Now that the Tower of the Mad Mage is 1 year old, they will reduce Halaster stats, HP and damage in TOMM so more players can get their Lionheart Weapon set and rings to be ready for Zariel Challenge.
I think it is a good move because this trial felt overwhelming for new players and veterans since its release.

Please modify your title with "I think that they should" because it sounds like you have top secret informations to spare with us, but we are just reading your opinions.

BTW, lionheart got boosted damages, so it's almost as if TOMM was nerfed

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kranky

for me (my opinion) i like the idea of them adjusting Tomm for the more casual player it is 1 year old and no longer the top spot with top gear and most of the ppl who farmed it already moved on to big Z. yes there are still ppl trying but for the majority of players Tomm still remains out of reach. Why? well while it may be pretty easy to get caps not everyone has excellent computer with good internet. some ppl play with 4-500 ping or more and dont even see the mechanics to be able to react to them until its to late or simply are not pro players who have fast hand - eye co-ordination and reflex speed. so why not make things easier for them to enjoy content thats alrdy old and the end-gamers have alrdy moved on from for a new harder challenge? it does not hurt anyone to make content more available to players who otherwise may never be able to do it. idk if it needs dmg/hp reductions i would say maybe just slow down the mechanic rotation so slower less comp savy players or those with older comps or poor internet can actually make it or try to make it thru content.
the reason is simple if the huge majority of players feel excluded from content for what ever reason why should they stay or support the game? ofcourse only top ppl going to do brand new content but after a year and a couple mods the devs still want ppl using the content so they need to open it up making it accessible to more of the player base. i mean i know all the "elite" or 1%'rs think your extra special and that all this content is or should be made just for you. but in reality most players have lives/friends/jobs/families and cannot spend hours and hours every day to learn mechanics or have the resources to have top rate computer and best internet connection or just are not as fast with reaction time. making the new content for 1-5% of playerbase is ok let them go learn it beat it farm it spam the HAMSTER gear in chat and talk HAMSTER about how everyone else just needs to git gud but after they move on make it so more ppl can go and feel some sense in completing areas in the game.

if cryptic thinks making content that is solely for the top players and that keeping it solely for top players and unattainable for the rest then maybe when the 95% stop putting in funds to support game or move on to other games that actually care about more then just end-gamers they can think about what went wrong while doing interviews for new jobs.

jules

ayleen#2040 said:

Nope. They nerfed CoDG and ToNG and still people are too dumb to get the simple push-pull move. They nerfed mimics in Arcturia fight and still people can't kill them because they think it's wise idea to go there with 90k power. Yeah, let's make everything dumb easy for total braindeads not bothering with thinking, awesome game experience it will be. People are failing BASIC game mechanics like stacking on hypothermia in FBI, nerfing anything will NOT help them getting their brains back to work but it will totally ruin already ruined game. Just git gud bro. Gearing up is so easy in this game that you can be stats-ready for ToMM in no time after getting lvl80, then it's just learning mechanics that in ToMM are really easy once you put it all together. It's just so well telegraphed. I don't get this "I can't do this so nerf it to be easier" attitude. Work for stuff instead of waiting for them to be handed to you. Also, it is fun to learn mechanics in group of people you know, overcoming things and laughing when you wipe 7th time in a row at dps check and then you finally do it because you got that right. You want stuff done fast and easy? Queue low level dungeons.

You sound very angry, are you okay?

While I agree that Tomm doesn't need to be made easier (nor should've been Codg or Lomm) it seems like it is personally attacking not only you but several people in this thread that other people might have an easier experience than you did.

Thats the whole game at the moment, thats the general direction. Easier accessable to new people, or to old people that did not do it yet. If this is so frustrating to you people, it will only get more frustrating in the future.

Does the game dimnish endgame or achievements in general over time? Yes, it does. Thats not cool. But with Tomm it feels like you are losing your measure of "good" other players vs "bad" other players, when it gets easier for the other, less ready players. The only thing on my mind if that is the case - that you can't use tomm as a way to look down on "lazier" and less competitive people - then: Boohoo.

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jules

ayleen#2040 said:

jules#6770 said:

You sound very angry, are you okay?

Lol so much XD Kindly don't put your measures over other people, the fact that someone has different opinion doesn't make them angry.

You are doing the same But then its fine, I guess, I have tons of fun without people whining that others are too lazy dumb for this "content".

quickfoot

The hardest part of ToMM, is finding a group who is willing to accept tomm newbs. I spent two weeks looking for a training group, and only managed to get into 2. This is with having over 220k pwr and 355k hp. Also, the 2nd training group I got into, they kicked me out before the run started to invite a more "popular" player who they probably thought could carry them through. So yeah, I'm a little bitter with the community in the NW endgame scene.

The biggest problem with ToMM, was that there just wasn't enough end gamers capable of actually completing it for the time it was released. This may be less true now, however, now, you have other problems, like lack of interest in the face of new content. Anyways, you can see now they are trying to reduce the cost to get to end game, but not really the amount of time it takes to grind to end game by saving AD. F2p players may be able to take advantage of one or two of the sales they are having, but mostly all these zen events are catered to p2w players, and whales looking for a get rich quick program (people riding on the backs of other f2p players, of which, I'm guilty of myself). People say "NW is not P2W, it's Pay to Progress Faster." However, progression leads to winning, and winning leads to further progression; so in other words, NW is P2W, you can try and change the words around, but a pig is still a pig, even while wearing makeup.

In 99% of computer games, it's impossible to actually make challenging content in any way, other than by throwing bigger rocks at the players. It makes me laugh when people say things like "get gid bro", or "it just takes skill". You're facing a scripted computer bot who throws bigger rocks. Just like in early game small mobs are hard, and you have to learn their moves and when to dodge, nothing has changed with ToMM, just bigger rocks now, it's muscle memory, not skill. To beat tomm you 1st need a group, if you can get past that hurdle, you have a good chance of actually completing it after your group develops the muscle memory and has the requisite stats. The same is true for zariel. The only way to make a game challenging, is to improve the AI in such a way that an NPC can adapt to players and change it's strategies in unpredictable ways, but very few games actually do this, and this is exactly why I prefer pvp over pve any day.

tassedethe13

quickfoot#7851 said:

The hardest part of ToMM, is finding a group who is willing to accept tomm newbs. I spent two weeks looking for a training group, and only managed to get into 2. This is with having over 220k pwr and 355k hp. Also, the 2nd training group I got into, they kicked me out before the run started to invite a more "popular" player who they probably thought could carry them through. So yeah, I'm a little bitter with the community in the NW endgame scene.

The biggest problem with ToMM, was that there just wasn't enough end gamers capable of actually completing it for the time it was released. This may be less true now, however, now, you have other problems, like lack of interest in the face of new content. Anyways, you can see now they are trying to reduce the cost to get to end game, but not really the amount of time it takes to grind to end game by saving AD. F2p players may be able to take advantage of one or two of the sales they are having, but mostly all these zen events are catered to p2w players, and whales looking for a get rich quick program (people riding on the backs of other f2p players, of which, I'm guilty of myself). People say "NW is not P2W, it's Pay to Progress Faster." However, progression leads to winning, and winning leads to further progression; so in other words, NW is P2W, you can try and change the words around, but a pig is still a pig, even while wearing makeup.

In 99% of computer games, it's impossible to actually make challenging content in any way, other than by throwing bigger rocks at the players. It makes me laugh when people say things like "get gid bro", or "it just takes skill". You're facing a scripted computer bot who throws bigger rocks. Just like in early game small mobs are hard, and you have to learn their moves and when to dodge, nothing has changed with ToMM, just bigger rocks now, it's muscle memory, not skill. To beat tomm you 1st need a group, if you can get past that hurdle, you have a good chance of actually completing it after your group develops the muscle memory and has the requisite stats. The same is true for zariel. The only way to make a game challenging, is to improve the AI in such a way that an NPC can adapt to players and change it's strategies in unpredictable ways, but very few games actually do this, and this is exactly why I prefer pvp over pve any day.

Doesn't change the fact that you need to dodge the rocks Too many people doesn't dodge those rocks

tom

unbarb said:

Now that the Tower of the Mad Mage is 1 year old, they will reduce Halaster stats, HP and damage in TOMM so more players can get their Lionheart Weapon set and rings to be ready for Zariel Challenge.
I think it is a good move because this trial felt overwhelming for new players and veterans since its release.

what makes you think that ppl will be ready for Zariel if they nerf ToMM? If ToMM is easier to complete, ppl will have even less chances of beating Zariel.

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kranky

oldtimer#7525 said:

End game content should never be catered to or designed with the average player in mind, nor should it be nerfed after release to make it more accessible, ever.

If the average player cannot complete ToMM now or 5 mods from now then they should not be able to complete ToMM until they figure out how to or natural power creep over time reaches the tipping point and allows them to finish, simple as that.

so basically you are saying that if you have high ping / older computer system / live in a country where 10 mbps internet speed is top notch / or have slower reaction speed that you should just play a different game? and not get to experience some content?
literally your comment is saying only top players or players who want to spend ungodly amount of time learning should get to have fun and a sense of progression in the game.......the idea of MMO is having content to for all players.... not just top players what good is it for cryptic to spend all that time and resources o build content for maybe 10-20% of the community base gets to enjoyment of it and then its just left behind?
i mean seriously once the top players have farmed it and had their fun and its 12-18 months old and not used as much what would be wrong with making it slightly more accessible for another 20-30 % of players? it keeps content relevant longer and keeps larger player base happy both things that cryptic would like to see more of.

i am sure players like myself who are training and farming hard to learn but still struggling are not ones posting that making it a little easier is bad. the people saying that are ones who probably already have lionheart on every toon on their account and just wish to see others kept below them and held back from enjoying content they have already moved on from.

so please yes your better you did it you have the experience you are so good but IDC i support this game with plenty of support for vip/occasionally charity events ect.... so i expect there to be adjustments that can allow me and the vast majority of players who supply the vast amount of financial support to allow us to do content even if it is 3 mods old. that is my opinon and it wont change

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finmakin

unbarb said:

Now that the Tower of the Mad Mage is 1 year old, they will reduce Halaster stats, HP and damage in TOMM so more players can get their Lionheart Weapon set and rings to be ready for Zariel Challenge.
I think it is a good move because this trial felt overwhelming for new players and veterans since its release.

I sense your reasoning, and I don't agree with it since players, mostly from same location were this kind of posts are appearing on forum lately (prolly like yourself) are looking for ways to get their hands on endgame items the easy way..

I have a better solution for dev's.
Leave ToMM in it's form as it is now and create a baby ToMM trial were playes can prepare themself for the normall ToMM.
This include baby loot like no Legendary rings and no part's of weaponset (but with Void's) because it's my opinion you have to Earn the Lionheart weaponset.

finmakin

ayleen#2040 said:

jules#6770 said:

You sound very angry, are you okay?

Lol so much XD Kindly don't put your measures over other people, the fact that someone has different opinion doesn't make them angry. I am not angry, I have tons of fun playing the game even at its current state and more, I have tons of fun seeing people failing easiest stuff and whining they should be nerfed.

You are completely right here

mentinmindmaker

finmakin said:

unbarb said:

Now that the Tower of the Mad Mage is 1 year old, they will reduce Halaster stats, HP and damage in TOMM so more players can get their Lionheart Weapon set and rings to be ready for Zariel Challenge.
I think it is a good move because this trial felt overwhelming for new players and veterans since its release.

I sense your reasoning, and I don't agree with it since players, mostly from same location were this kind of posts are appearing on forum lately (prolly like yourself) are looking for ways to get their hands on endgame items the easy way..

I have a better solution for dev's.
Leave ToMM in it's form as it is now and create a baby ToMM trial were playes can prepare themself for the normall ToMM.
This include baby loot like no Legendary rings and no part's of weaponset (but with Void's) because it's my opinion you have to Earn the Lionheart weaponset.

I just wanted to point out that there is a lot of carrying going on in ToMM just to get people their weapons, and since it has been demonstrated you can do ToMM with 5 people, there are 5 carry spots available...

So the 'earn your way' argument has limited validity at this time, although I do not entirely disagree with it.

I am actually surprised I have not yet seen Lionheart weapons being sold(based on carry seats).

I am among those that choose to not do ToMM since I found it too extreme. I am ok with letting the ToMM runners have their Lionhearts, but I am not OK with the weapons gap between Lionheart and what is available to the non-ToMM runners.

The way it is currently also Legion weapons require so much farming and uncertainty that they are out of reach of many/most that are not very lucky. That is not ok. The ToMM/ZC runners should not have THAT big an advantage.