@hadestemplar#9918 You are probably right about an experienced moderator. I was just considering how much moderation is needed and trying to figure out a way to provide summaries when the CDP gets really busy. I don't think it is fair to ask that much of the current moderators but it would be easier for them since they are experienced with this forum.
@hustin1 I am also a big fan of using color, and I agree it is a pain to use them without them being on the toolbar. One drawback is people who overuse color or use colors like dark blue on a black background. There are easy workarounds for that though.
@sobi#1980 You are right, I am worried about alienating gamers, but I also argue that if someone wants to provide feedback in a CDP and not in the normal feedback forum they should be willing to step up and go that extra mile to make the experience better for everyone involved. Imagine having to go back through all of the feedback in one of the larger CDPs to write up a summary. I have done it and trust me it is a royal pain.
I also agree that simpler is better and I would hope that people would use templates if they were available. I acknowledge that not everyone would format even if it were a "rule" but I think that if enough of us at least make an effort others will give it a shot.
In a recent stream, a member of the cryptic team mentioned heroic encounter are much easier to make than dungeons. Should we have a CDP to brainstorm ideas for heroic encounters? If it's easier and more efficient for Cryptic to make them instead of dungeons than perhaps we can work together to make some awesome HE's for future mods.
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tassedethe13Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 806Arc User
In a recent stream, a member of the cryptic team mentioned heroic encounter are much easier to make than dungeons. Should we have a CDP to brainstorm ideas for heroic encounters? If it's easier and more efficient for Cryptic to make them instead of dungeons than perhaps we can work together to make some awesome HE's for future mods.
please no more HE It's not fun to zerg into it, and it's only "hot" for the new module, then nobody does old HE
Decided to make a post fitting the format, hope it ain't too much @cwhitesidedev#9752
Goal: Seeing impact on the future releases of the game (which you just lost).
Why: It's a massive time investment, so it brings up your equivalents of CSATs and improves resolution times - a more streamlined process if we all can avoid suggesting things that have already been suggested.
Furthermore, it can really help you get people hyped up for really really big releases - hype as you know is a big part of marketing, and in a game that really needs an upwards trending graph regarding playerbase, marketing is essential.
Most players start playing by reference, rather than by finding the game. If a player can say "Hey man, this game I'm playing is getting a super awesome update later this year, you should join" and then explain why it's so good. Basically get players to market the game for you by their own decision. Once you have a steadily growing player base, you can start sandbagging to make the surprise for the current community huge, and make it feel like a new world to immerse yourself into.
Furthermore, this can be used to adjust expectations. You can implement stuff like for instance balance changes, or reward system reworks, general goal posts for a mod etc - it works very well all together.
I can go more in-depth regarding this topic via a post separate from this, where I can show what I mean, and why this is so important in my humble opinion.
How: Implement a timeline or a goal post as a topic which you can edit as time goes on - when things should be implemented like you did for that timeline for future mods. This way we have tangible effect and we can see what has been decided in the past without gravedigging through old posts, and can see what's coming up long-term.
Risks: Well, it gets more predictable - if we expect say mod20 some time early next year, it won't be as much of a surprise, but that in itself is a good thing too.
It's possible that it will bite you in the butt if you set a time limit where we expect some change to arrive but then you get short staffed and you delay it. I've worked in WFM so I know how it gets.
It is also just one more thing to maintain but I don't think that's too much of a problem as it's a long-term thing with somewhat frequent additions.
Regardless, it would be a fine addition, and would clear a lot of things up for a lot of users, and for instance guys like RJC, Fabricant and that other TR lad I can't remember his name would definitely be able to work around those things, giving you ideas that they built around your goals as a business, rather than making something from the ground up that might be completely pointless due to a conflicting goal.
Have a good one,
Dorian.
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gabrieldourdenMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,212Arc User
edited March 2020
Hi all. Hadn't time to check the CDP in the last days as I'm in the middle of the red zone for Coronavirus and had to understand what to do in my RL first.
Great discussion so far. On my side I could say that the main issue with the CDP I saw so far has been due to off-topics and "personal" discussions. As the CDP currently is more or less a long wall of text divided in chapters it is difficult (at least for me) to keep track of the different topics and avoid forgetting information all the way. Rainer has been great in making summaries, but even with those it was sometimes difficult to get an handle on all the discussions.
The current approach of the CDP works well for the first phase which is basically a brainstorming. I'm a bit against having a fixed format for this first phase because often it's not a very well identified topic that people want to discuss, but something that for them is an issue but it's not very clearly pointed-out. Not all people are very good at identifying their needs and precisely putting them on paper. Interacting with other people may help in getting a better understanding of what the underlying issues are. So for Phase 1 I'm all for separate threads but for a more free approach.
At the end of Phase 1 the Devs should do a review and decide what discussions will go on to phase 2 or not, and narrow down each topic together with the original poster (this has been suggested before). If they decide to stop a discussion it would be good to understand why. A short post by a Dev could help in avoiding anger and also in providing more insight. For example: "we stopped this discussion because it fits more in an upcoming CDP and we'll move it there" or "we stopped this discussion because the back-end system doesn't allow us to do this now but we'll keep it in mind for the future".
Phase 2 should start with a more defined approach and a clear statement of each proposal and then be followed by discussion.
When it comes to the "top three" phase I'm not sure whether that helps. The base here on the forum is quite small and sometimes biased compared to the population of the game. It could be left there as a kind of limited survey but then it really falls on the shoulders of the Dev team to understand what could have value or not.
Post edited by gabrieldourden on
Le-Shan: HR level 80 (main)
Born of Black Wind: SW Level 80
I believe the CDP forum is fine the way it is and is moving in the right direction. Only Issue I've noticed at all is sometimes threads get a little off topic, aside from that its perfect imo.
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plasticbatMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 12,399Arc User
edited March 2020
Regarding off topic and not letting it to continue, can the forum add some kind of "off topic" label so that other readers know they should not comment/bump it further?
*** The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will. ***
We have one more day left before this CDP closes so I wanted to update the proposal I put forward following reading this CDP and see if we can get agreement and any further polish to the proposal as required:
Phases 1: Phase 1: Posting of Ideas and related questions (not discussion) (Tag Ideas with simple naming conventions such as Idea 1, Idea 2 and so on. If someone posts before you do and the number order is wrong just go and edit the latest Idea with the correct number). 2: Phase 2: Discussion but not argument for the sake of it with more management of conversational direction and topics by me (CDP members can pick ideas for discussion as well). 3: Phase 3: Top 3 with a single sentence of why for each line item. Conclusion: Proposal
Regarding Phase 1 Format: Heading (Idea number)>Goal>Why>What>Concerns and Considerations (Try to limit to 400 words) (Spoiler functionality is welcome should a member want to provide more detail in any of the above headings).
Overall Best Working Practices - Every Phase change will see thread closure for a day or 2 in order to allow everyone to catch up. - Phase change will be better presented in the CDP making the current goal for the CDP clearer. - CDP intro will provide more guidance as well as success criteria for the CDP. - Chris, Julia and Kreatyve to be more aggressive on off-topic posts and disrespectful posts (Offtopic posts will be removed as will toxic ones. Repeated toxicity will lead to a CDP ban) - More focused topics (but please note CDP 3 was intentionally broad due to the fact it is a child of CDP 1 and we have begun work on CDP 1 in relation to Mod 20 and prior and therefore timing is key). - Moving forward we will give options for upcoming CDPs and gather info as to CDP priority level. - I would really appreciate it if CDP members could help newer CDP members with what they have learnt about the project best working practices as well as repeating information in regard to the CDP that has already been shared such as CDP Goals, Mission, Purpose etc (I will update this in the kick off post with Julia as well).
For the time being I would like us to try these changes and see the impact. For the time being I don't want us to try turning one thread into many. I feel like this is going to end up being like a spiders web both in terms of search and new CDP member accessibility.
Note following the end of the current CDPs there is going to be a 2 week break before a new one is started (This will allow everyone to have a break).
I don't understand the insistence on deleting off topic posts. What will happen to them isn't clear either.
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thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
I am not sure if its possible to change the thread title to Phase 1 -> Phase 2 -> Phase 3 during a phase but that might more clearly delineate the phases. Also, if someone wants me to draft up examples of how the different forum formatting tools can be used to help make posts more readable, with some template examples of an unformatted post vs a formatted post, I do not mind to do so.
I am not sure if its possible to change the thread title to Phase 1 -> Phase 2 -> Phase 3 during a phase but that might more clearly delineate the phases. Also, if someone wants me to draft up examples of how the different forum formatting tools can be used to help make posts more readable, with some template examples of an unformatted post vs a formatted post, I do not mind to do so.
Yes, you can change the post title. I have just changed the title of one of the posts I created.
*** The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will. ***
I don't understand the insistence on deleting off topic posts. What will happen to them isn't clear either.
Deleting off-topic will make it easier for others to skim read if they start the CDP late and not get lost and the harsh stance towards toxic comments is a warning that the CDP is not designed for people to aloof.
Most off-topic posts are actually toxic, so they go hand in hand. You'll see some of them here stating that the CDP is a failure and will end up failing. They are entitled to their opinion, as long as they keep it to themselves. If however, your tone was that the CDP is likely to fail and state your reasons, that may give Chris or others insight into any potential changes he could make. There has to be a constructive feedback to back up your critiquing, otherwise its either toxic, off topic or both.
I don't understand the insistence on deleting off topic posts. What will happen to them isn't clear either.
Deleting off-topic will make it easier for others to skim read if they start the CDP late and not get lost and the harsh stance towards toxic comments is a warning that the CDP is not designed for people to aloof.
Most off-topic posts are actually toxic, so they go hand in hand. You'll see some of them here stating that the CDP is a failure and will end up failing. They are entitled to their opinion, as long as they keep it to themselves. If however, your tone was that the CDP is likely to fail and state your reasons, that may give Chris or others insight into any potential changes he could make. There has to be a constructive feedback to back up your critiquing, otherwise its either toxic, off topic or both.
And yet it is not so simple in practise, and deleting what one deems "offtopic" instead of moving it (to a reasonable/fitting place, depending of if it is deemed quality posts simply not on topic or toxic forum pvp) can, if taken overboard or executed on some people, and not on others, seem like there is some sort of censorship. Theoretically, of course. Its not like this seems likely in NW, right?
I am not sure if its possible to change the thread title to Phase 1 -> Phase 2 -> Phase 3 during a phase but that might more clearly delineate the phases. Also, if someone wants me to draft up examples of how the different forum formatting tools can be used to help make posts more readable, with some template examples of an unformatted post vs a formatted post, I do not mind to do so.
Yes good idea. We will do that.
Chris
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plasticbatMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 12,399Arc User
I don't understand the insistence on deleting off topic posts. What will happen to them isn't clear either.
Deleting off-topic will make it easier for others to skim read if they start the CDP late and not get lost and the harsh stance towards toxic comments is a warning that the CDP is not designed for people to aloof.
Most off-topic posts are actually toxic, so they go hand in hand. You'll see some of them here stating that the CDP is a failure and will end up failing. They are entitled to their opinion, as long as they keep it to themselves. If however, your tone was that the CDP is likely to fail and state your reasons, that may give Chris or others insight into any potential changes he could make. There has to be a constructive feedback to back up your critiquing, otherwise its either toxic, off topic or both.
And yet it is not so simple in practise, and deleting what one deems "offtopic" instead of moving it (to a reasonable/fitting place, depending of if it is deemed quality posts simply not on topic or toxic forum pvp) can, if taken overboard or executed on some people, and not on others, seem like there is some sort of censorship. Theoretically, of course. Its not like this seems likely in NW, right?
A bunch of off topic posts were moved from another CDP thread and stored in a totally new thread in "General discussion (PC)" and the life of that alternative thread kept going for a long while.
*** The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will. ***
I don't understand the insistence on deleting off topic posts. What will happen to them isn't clear either.
Deleting off-topic will make it easier for others to skim read if they start the CDP late and not get lost and the harsh stance towards toxic comments is a warning that the CDP is not designed for people to aloof.
Most off-topic posts are actually toxic, so they go hand in hand. You'll see some of them here stating that the CDP is a failure and will end up failing. They are entitled to their opinion, as long as they keep it to themselves. If however, your tone was that the CDP is likely to fail and state your reasons, that may give Chris or others insight into any potential changes he could make. There has to be a constructive feedback to back up your critiquing, otherwise its either toxic, off topic or both.
And yet it is not so simple in practise, and deleting what one deems "offtopic" instead of moving it (to a reasonable/fitting place, depending of if it is deemed quality posts simply not on topic or toxic forum pvp) can, if taken overboard or executed on some people, and not on others, seem like there is some sort of censorship. Theoretically, of course. Its not like this seems likely in NW, right?
A bunch of off topic posts were moved from another CDP thread and stored in a totally new thread in "General discussion (PC)" and the life of that alternative thread kept going for a long while.
I know, I read it. Is that the general principle? Where will we find the posts? Spelldazers posts were put into XBOX iirc.
- bye bye -
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
edited March 2020
Open a CDP offtopic subforum under the CPD part, and move it all there with new relevant threads as needed.
Is there a place where i can learn or other CDP members can learn how to use spoilers and spoilers within spoilers?
1
plasticbatMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 12,399Arc User
edited March 2020
Can the forum be set up to have link to go to a particular post within a thread of posts? Right now, it can only allow making link to the thread. It is hard to find a particular post without searching many pages.
*** The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will. ***
1
thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
> @jules#6770 said: > (Quote) > I know, I read it. Is that the general principle? Where will we find the posts? Spelldazers posts were put into XBOX iirc.
My posts were put there at my request since I play on xbox. There should be a CDP-specific thread for the non-toxic off topics discussions. Although, I personally do not agree with this policy of deleting contributions.
Been reading the ANET GW2 CDI threads all the way back to 2013 and looking closely at the threads on format and process there. For those who can be bothered to go through those, it did make it easier for me to understand what Chris has in mind. The resemblance to what is happening here in the NW CDPs is (unsurprisingly) remarkable. It's disheartening to me, personally, but at least I have a clearer understanding of the scope of the collaboration and what the process is likely going to be.
Having a "We'll keep it open till it looks like we're just about done then announce a 1 or 2 day last chance" can leave people thinking "Damn, it shut yesterday..." when they were about to follow up or post an idea.
I might be alone in this and just being selfish, but I have sort of waves of opportunity to get on. Often I can get a rush contract and have to leave the CDP for three or four days. A couple of times I've come back to find we've moved on to another phase or the CDP has closed entirely.
Have a clear "This is when phase 1/2/3 ends. We may extend beyond that if it becomes clear more time is needed." and stick to that. "We're closing this in 2 days" is not best practise. Not everyone gets on every day, and sometimes you end up dragged away by real life for a few days and come back to find the thread has closed, or moved on.
2. Letting people know about the CDP. I still believe that the in-game email is a vastly underused utility at the devs disposal, and if you want to get more people involved in the CDP, then telling them about it is probably the best way to make that happen. You can only guess at how many members of the player base watch Youtube videos or learn about the CDP through Social Media. You can, however, count how many people open an email in your game. It's there... it's free. Try using it. If it works, great, if it doesn't... so what? Or put a bloody great big notification about the CDP on the home screen when the game loads.
Again, if you want contributors to follow specific formatting guidelines then just make this section of your forums a form that we have to fill out.
Players casually stopping by to provide an opinion on a topic of interest wont know your format requirements anyway. It is not user friendly and it is completely unnecessary for the purpose of providing an opinion.
We have one more day left before this CDP closes so I wanted to update the proposal I put forward following reading this CDP and see if we can get agreement and any further polish to the proposal as required:
Phases 1: Phase 1: Posting of Ideas and related questions (not discussion) (Tag Ideas with simple naming conventions such as Idea 1, Idea 2 and so on. If someone posts before you do and the number order is wrong just go and edit the latest Idea with the correct number). 2: Phase 2: Discussion but not argument for the sake of it with more management of conversational direction and topics by me (CDP members can pick ideas for discussion as well). 3: Phase 3: Top 3 with a single sentence of why for each line item. Conclusion: Proposal
Regarding Phase 1 Format: Heading (Idea number)>Goal>Why>What>Concerns and Considerations (Try to limit to 400 words) (Spoiler functionality is welcome should a member want to provide more detail in any of the above headings).
Overall Best Working Practices - Every Phase change will see thread closure for a day or 2 in order to allow everyone to catch up. - Phase change will be better presented in the CDP making the current goal for the CDP clearer. - CDP intro will provide more guidance as well as success criteria for the CDP. - Chris, Julia and Kreatyve to be more aggressive on off-topic posts and disrespectful posts (Offtopic posts will be removed as will toxic ones. Repeated toxicity will lead to a CDP ban) - More focused topics (but please note CDP 3 was intentionally broad due to the fact it is a child of CDP 1 and we have begun work on CDP 1 in relation to Mod 20 and prior and therefore timing is key). - Moving forward we will give options for upcoming CDPs and gather info as to CDP priority level. - I would really appreciate it if CDP members could help newer CDP members with what they have learnt about the project best working practices as well as repeating information in regard to the CDP that has already been shared such as CDP Goals, Mission, Purpose etc (I will update this in the kick off post with Julia as well).
For the time being I would like us to try these changes and see the impact. For the time being I don't want us to try turning one thread into many. I feel like this is going to end up being like a spiders web both in terms of search and new CDP member accessibility.
Note following the end of the current CDPs there is going to be a 2 week break before a new one is started (This will allow everyone to have a break).
Maybe pin this above the CDP, or make an excel-esque form that we fill out.
Also, another quick idea - make a list of upcoming CDPs so they can be thought-out previously to making posts. I'd love this.
3
thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
I know its a bit late with regards for adding to this thread, but I have the following questions about the CDP, which I think clarifying would help us moving forward to provide better feedback if we knew the answer to.
What phase of development do you want us to focus our feedback on? Do you want feedback on planning, feedback on design, or just small modifications to the final product to be our main focus.
Right now you are responding to near enough every post (which is great) and are often saying you agree, or disagree with the idea of a post. Often though (and this is particularly evident when you agree with something), you do not comment on the implementation. This leads to a lot of hopes being built up, when you may just be agreeing with the problem that needs to be solved, and not with the proposed solution. The benefit of programs like this is, if they work then they are a great way to build trust in a community. However, the downside is, they remove the "customer - corporation" barrier, or at least, they reduce it a huge amount, which means that if players do feel their trust is betrayed, they will take it a lot more personally than if the initiative had not been there in the first place. Players need to be very clear on what they can expect to see out of each initiative, otherwise in a years time you can expect to see hot water about it.
Thanks for all your time and effort in this CDP it has been a really interesting and tumultuous discussion but i think we got there in the end.
Here is the proposal (And as per @gromovnipljesak#8234 post above it will be stickied along with a high level description of the CDP Goal, Mission and Pillars:
Phases (Topic Name Will be updated to reflect each stage of the CDP) 1: Phase 1: Posting of Ideas and related questions (not discussion) (Tag Ideas with simple naming conventions such as Idea 1, Idea 2 and so on. If someone posts before you do and the number order is wrong just go and edit the latest Idea with the correct number). 2: Phase 2: Discussion but not argument for the sake of it with more management of conversational direction and topics by me (CDP members can pick ideas for discussion as well). 3: Phase 3: Top 3 with a single sentence of why for each line item. Conclusion: Proposal
Regarding Phase 1 Format: Heading (Idea number)>Goal>Why>What>Concerns and Considerations (Try to limit to 400 words) (Spoiler functionality is welcome should a member want to provide more detail in any of the above headings).
Overall Best Working Practices - Every Phase change will see thread closure for a day or 2 in order to allow everyone to catch up. - Phase change will be better presented in the CDP making the current goal for the CDP clearer. - CDP intro will provide more guidance as well as success criteria for the CDP. - Chris, Julia and Kreatyve to be more aggressive on off-topic posts and disrespectful posts (Offtopic posts will be removed as will toxic ones. Repeated toxicity will lead to a CDP ban) - More focused topics (but please note CDP 3 was intentionally broad due to the fact it is a child of CDP 1 and we have begun work on CDP 1 in relation to Mod 20 and prior and therefore timing is key). - Moving forward we will give options for upcoming CDPs and gather info as to CDP priority level. - I would really appreciate it if CDP members could help newer CDP members with what they have learnt about the project best working practices as well as repeating information in regard to the CDP that has already been shared such as CDP Goals, Mission, Purpose etc (I will update this in the kick off post with Julia as well).
I am locking the thread now. We may well offer options for the next CDP but we will be taking a 2 week break in the interim. Meanwhile feel free to message me if you want to chat and once again thanks for all of your time, ideas and passion.
I know its a bit late with regards for adding to this thread, but I have the following questions about the CDP, which I think clarifying would help us moving forward to provide better feedback if we knew the answer to.
What phase of development do you want us to focus our feedback on? Do you want feedback on planning, feedback on design, or just small modifications to the final product to be our main focus.
Right now you are responding to near enough every post (which is great) and are often saying you agree, or disagree with the idea of a post. Often though (and this is particularly evident when you agree with something), you do not comment on the implementation. This leads to a lot of hopes being built up, when you may just be agreeing with the problem that needs to be solved, and not with the proposed solution. The benefit of programs like this is, if they work then they are a great way to build trust in a community. However, the downside is, they remove the "customer - corporation" barrier, or at least, they reduce it a huge amount, which means that if players do feel their trust is betrayed, they will take it a lot more personally than if the initiative had not been there in the first place. Players need to be very clear on what they can expect to see out of each initiative, otherwise in a years time you can expect to see hot water about it.
Thanks for the feedback Sharp. Even though the thread is closed I wanted to respond. Regarding type of feedback it is generally ideation, discussion, problem solving and evolution around the parent topic and its children. Implementation feedback can be included in spoilers as an example and in some cases we will ask for it. This said I also want to work out how to use the CDP as development starts on an a proposal line item at certain gates of development progress. We have been thinking about this and have some ideas already so stay tuned.
Finally and this is very important building trust in the community is not a CDP goal or pillar. If that happens then great but in order to achieve that we need to execute on intent. Therefore it is not a pillar of the program. The main pillar being We build worlds together.
Comments
@hustin1 I am also a big fan of using color, and I agree it is a pain to use them without them being on the toolbar. One drawback is people who overuse color or use colors like dark blue on a black background. There are easy workarounds for that though.
@sobi#1980 You are right, I am worried about alienating gamers, but I also argue that if someone wants to provide feedback in a CDP and not in the normal feedback forum they should be willing to step up and go that extra mile to make the experience better for everyone involved. Imagine having to go back through all of the feedback in one of the larger CDPs to write up a summary. I have done it and trust me it is a royal pain.
I also agree that simpler is better and I would hope that people would use templates if they were available. I acknowledge that not everyone would format even if it were a "rule" but I think that if enough of us at least make an effort others will give it a shot.
Goal:
Seeing impact on the future releases of the game (which you just lost).
Why:
It's a massive time investment, so it brings up your equivalents of CSATs and improves resolution times - a more streamlined process if we all can avoid suggesting things that have already been suggested.
Furthermore, it can really help you get people hyped up for really really big releases - hype as you know is a big part of marketing, and in a game that really needs an upwards trending graph regarding playerbase, marketing is essential.
Most players start playing by reference, rather than by finding the game. If a player can say "Hey man, this game I'm playing is getting a super awesome update later this year, you should join" and then explain why it's so good. Basically get players to market the game for you by their own decision. Once you have a steadily growing player base, you can start sandbagging to make the surprise for the current community huge, and make it feel like a new world to immerse yourself into.
Furthermore, this can be used to adjust expectations. You can implement stuff like for instance balance changes, or reward system reworks, general goal posts for a mod etc - it works very well all together.
I can go more in-depth regarding this topic via a post separate from this, where I can show what I mean, and why this is so important in my humble opinion.
How:
Implement a timeline or a goal post as a topic which you can edit as time goes on - when things should be implemented like you did for that timeline for future mods. This way we have tangible effect and we can see what has been decided in the past without gravedigging through old posts, and can see what's coming up long-term.
Risks:
Well, it gets more predictable - if we expect say mod20 some time early next year, it won't be as much of a surprise, but that in itself is a good thing too.
It's possible that it will bite you in the butt if you set a time limit where we expect some change to arrive but then you get short staffed and you delay it. I've worked in WFM so I know how it gets.
It is also just one more thing to maintain but I don't think that's too much of a problem as it's a long-term thing with somewhat frequent additions.
Regardless, it would be a fine addition, and would clear a lot of things up for a lot of users, and for instance guys like RJC, Fabricant and that other TR lad I can't remember his name would definitely be able to work around those things, giving you ideas that they built around your goals as a business, rather than making something from the ground up that might be completely pointless due to a conflicting goal.
Have a good one,
Dorian.
Great discussion so far. On my side I could say that the main issue with the CDP I saw so far has been due to off-topics and "personal" discussions. As the CDP currently is more or less a long wall of text divided in chapters it is difficult (at least for me) to keep track of the different topics and avoid forgetting information all the way. Rainer has been great in making summaries, but even with those it was sometimes difficult to get an handle on all the discussions.
The current approach of the CDP works well for the first phase which is basically a brainstorming. I'm a bit against having a fixed format for this first phase because often it's not a very well identified topic that people want to discuss, but something that for them is an issue but it's not very clearly pointed-out. Not all people are very good at identifying their needs and precisely putting them on paper. Interacting with other people may help in getting a better understanding of what the underlying issues are. So for Phase 1 I'm all for separate threads but for a more free approach.
At the end of Phase 1 the Devs should do a review and decide what discussions will go on to phase 2 or not, and narrow down each topic together with the original poster (this has been suggested before). If they decide to stop a discussion it would be good to understand why. A short post by a Dev could help in avoiding anger and also in providing more insight. For example: "we stopped this discussion because it fits more in an upcoming CDP and we'll move it there" or "we stopped this discussion because the back-end system doesn't allow us to do this now but we'll keep it in mind for the future".
Phase 2 should start with a more defined approach and a clear statement of each proposal and then be followed by discussion.
When it comes to the "top three" phase I'm not sure whether that helps. The base here on the forum is quite small and sometimes biased compared to the population of the game. It could be left there as a kind of limited survey but then it really falls on the shoulders of the Dev team to understand what could have value or not.
Born of Black Wind: SW Level 80
We have one more day left before this CDP closes so I wanted to update the proposal I put forward following reading this CDP and see if we can get agreement and any further polish to the proposal as required:
Phases
1: Phase 1: Posting of Ideas and related questions (not discussion) (Tag Ideas with simple naming conventions such as Idea 1, Idea 2 and so on. If someone posts before you do and the number order is wrong just go and edit the latest Idea with the correct number).
2: Phase 2: Discussion but not argument for the sake of it with more management of conversational direction and topics by me (CDP members can pick ideas for discussion as well).
3: Phase 3: Top 3 with a single sentence of why for each line item.
Conclusion: Proposal
Regarding Phase 1 Format:
Heading (Idea number)>Goal>Why>What>Concerns and Considerations (Try to limit to 400 words) (Spoiler functionality is welcome should a member want to provide more detail in any of the above headings).
Overall Best Working Practices
- Every Phase change will see thread closure for a day or 2 in order to allow everyone to catch up.
- Phase change will be better presented in the CDP making the current goal for the CDP clearer.
- CDP intro will provide more guidance as well as success criteria for the CDP.
- Chris, Julia and Kreatyve to be more aggressive on off-topic posts and disrespectful posts (Offtopic posts will be removed as will toxic ones. Repeated toxicity will lead to a CDP ban)
- More focused topics (but please note CDP 3 was intentionally broad due to the fact it is a child of CDP 1 and we have begun work on CDP 1 in relation to Mod 20 and prior and therefore timing is key).
- Moving forward we will give options for upcoming CDPs and gather info as to CDP priority level.
- I would really appreciate it if CDP members could help newer CDP members with what they have learnt about the project best working practices as well as repeating information in regard to the CDP that has already been shared such as CDP Goals, Mission, Purpose etc (I will update this in the kick off post with Julia as well).
For the time being I would like us to try these changes and see the impact. For the time being I don't want us to try turning one thread into many. I feel like this is going to end up being like a spiders web both in terms of search and new CDP member accessibility.
Note following the end of the current CDPs there is going to be a 2 week break before a new one is started (This will allow everyone to have a break).
Thanks
Chris
Most off-topic posts are actually toxic, so they go hand in hand. You'll see some of them here stating that the CDP is a failure and will end up failing. They are entitled to their opinion, as long as they keep it to themselves. If however, your tone was that the CDP is likely to fail and state your reasons, that may give Chris or others insight into any potential changes he could make. There has to be a constructive feedback to back up your critiquing, otherwise its either toxic, off topic or both.
Theoretically, of course. Its not like this seems likely in NW, right?
Chris
Right now, it can only allow making link to the thread. It is hard to find a particular post without searching many pages.
@sobi#1980
> (Quote)
> I know, I read it. Is that the general principle? Where will we find the posts? Spelldazers posts were put into XBOX iirc.
My posts were put there at my request since I play on xbox. There should be a CDP-specific thread for the non-toxic off topics discussions. Although, I personally do not agree with this policy of deleting contributions.
Been reading the ANET GW2 CDI threads all the way back to 2013 and looking closely at the threads on format and process there. For those who can be bothered to go through those, it did make it easier for me to understand what Chris has in mind. The resemblance to what is happening here in the NW CDPs is (unsurprisingly) remarkable. It's disheartening to me, personally, but at least I have a clearer understanding of the scope of the collaboration and what the process is likely going to be.
1.
Clear time lines are also important.
Having a "We'll keep it open till it looks like we're just about done then announce a 1 or 2 day last chance" can leave people thinking "Damn, it shut yesterday..." when they were about to follow up or post an idea.
I might be alone in this and just being selfish, but I have sort of waves of opportunity to get on. Often I can get a rush contract and have to leave the CDP for three or four days. A couple of times I've come back to find we've moved on to another phase or the CDP has closed entirely.
Have a clear "This is when phase 1/2/3 ends. We may extend beyond that if it becomes clear more time is needed." and stick to that. "We're closing this in 2 days" is not best practise. Not everyone gets on every day, and sometimes you end up dragged away by real life for a few days and come back to find the thread has closed, or moved on.
2.
Letting people know about the CDP.
I still believe that the in-game email is a vastly underused utility at the devs disposal, and if you want to get more people involved in the CDP, then telling them about it is probably the best way to make that happen.
You can only guess at how many members of the player base watch Youtube videos or learn about the CDP through Social Media.
You can, however, count how many people open an email in your game.
It's there... it's free. Try using it. If it works, great, if it doesn't... so what?
Or put a bloody great big notification about the CDP on the home screen when the game loads.
Players casually stopping by to provide an opinion on a topic of interest wont know your format requirements anyway. It is not user friendly and it is completely unnecessary for the purpose of providing an opinion.
Maybe pin this above the CDP, or make an excel-esque form that we fill out.
Also, another quick idea - make a list of upcoming CDPs so they can be thought-out previously to making posts. I'd love this.
Thanks for all your time and effort in this CDP it has been a really interesting and tumultuous discussion but i think we got there in the end.
Here is the proposal (And as per @gromovnipljesak#8234 post above it will be stickied along with a high level description of the CDP Goal, Mission and Pillars:
Phases (Topic Name Will be updated to reflect each stage of the CDP)
1: Phase 1: Posting of Ideas and related questions (not discussion) (Tag Ideas with simple naming conventions such as Idea 1, Idea 2 and so on. If someone posts before you do and the number order is wrong just go and edit the latest Idea with the correct number).
2: Phase 2: Discussion but not argument for the sake of it with more management of conversational direction and topics by me (CDP members can pick ideas for discussion as well).
3: Phase 3: Top 3 with a single sentence of why for each line item.
Conclusion: Proposal
Regarding Phase 1 Format:
Heading (Idea number)>Goal>Why>What>Concerns and Considerations (Try to limit to 400 words) (Spoiler functionality is welcome should a member want to provide more detail in any of the above headings).
Overall Best Working Practices
- Every Phase change will see thread closure for a day or 2 in order to allow everyone to catch up.
- Phase change will be better presented in the CDP making the current goal for the CDP clearer.
- CDP intro will provide more guidance as well as success criteria for the CDP.
- Chris, Julia and Kreatyve to be more aggressive on off-topic posts and disrespectful posts (Offtopic posts will be removed as will toxic ones. Repeated toxicity will lead to a CDP ban)
- More focused topics (but please note CDP 3 was intentionally broad due to the fact it is a child of CDP 1 and we have begun work on CDP 1 in relation to Mod 20 and prior and therefore timing is key).
- Moving forward we will give options for upcoming CDPs and gather info as to CDP priority level.
- I would really appreciate it if CDP members could help newer CDP members with what they have learnt about the project best working practices as well as repeating information in regard to the CDP that has already been shared such as CDP Goals, Mission, Purpose etc (I will update this in the kick off post with Julia as well).
I am locking the thread now. We may well offer options for the next CDP but we will be taking a 2 week break in the interim. Meanwhile feel free to message me if you want to chat and once again thanks for all of your time, ideas and passion.
Chris
Finally and this is very important building trust in the community is not a CDP goal or pillar. If that happens then great but in order to achieve that we need to execute on intent. Therefore it is not a pillar of the program. The main pillar being We build worlds together.
Chris