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  • oremonger#9999 oremonger Member Posts: 213 Arc User
    @hadestemplar#9918 You are probably right about an experienced moderator. I was just considering how much moderation is needed and trying to figure out a way to provide summaries when the CDP gets really busy. I don't think it is fair to ask that much of the current moderators but it would be easier for them since they are experienced with this forum.

    @hustin1 I am also a big fan of using color, and I agree it is a pain to use them without them being on the toolbar. One drawback is people who overuse color or use colors like dark blue on a black background. There are easy workarounds for that though.

    @sobi#1980 You are right, I am worried about alienating gamers, but I also argue that if someone wants to provide feedback in a CDP and not in the normal feedback forum they should be willing to step up and go that extra mile to make the experience better for everyone involved. Imagine having to go back through all of the feedback in one of the larger CDPs to write up a summary. I have done it and trust me it is a royal pain.

    I also agree that simpler is better and I would hope that people would use templates if they were available. I acknowledge that not everyone would format even if it were a "rule" but I think that if enough of us at least make an effort others will give it a shot.
  • sunshinehappy#2439 sunshinehappy Member Posts: 41 Arc User
    In a recent stream, a member of the cryptic team mentioned heroic encounter are much easier to make than dungeons. Should we have a CDP to brainstorm ideas for heroic encounters? If it's easier and more efficient for Cryptic to make them instead of dungeons than perhaps we can work together to make some awesome HE's for future mods.
  • tassedethe13tassedethe13 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 806 Arc User

    In a recent stream, a member of the cryptic team mentioned heroic encounter are much easier to make than dungeons. Should we have a CDP to brainstorm ideas for heroic encounters? If it's easier and more efficient for Cryptic to make them instead of dungeons than perhaps we can work together to make some awesome HE's for future mods.

    please no more HE :( It's not fun to zerg into it, and it's only "hot" for the new module, then nobody does old HE
  • gromovnipljesak#8234 gromovnipljesak Member Posts: 1,042 Arc User
    edited March 2020
    Decided to make a post fitting the format, hope it ain't too much @cwhitesidedev#9752 :D

    Goal:
    Seeing impact on the future releases of the game (which you just lost).

    Why:
    It's a massive time investment, so it brings up your equivalents of CSATs and improves resolution times - a more streamlined process if we all can avoid suggesting things that have already been suggested.

    Furthermore, it can really help you get people hyped up for really really big releases - hype as you know is a big part of marketing, and in a game that really needs an upwards trending graph regarding playerbase, marketing is essential.

    Most players start playing by reference, rather than by finding the game. If a player can say "Hey man, this game I'm playing is getting a super awesome update later this year, you should join" and then explain why it's so good. Basically get players to market the game for you by their own decision. Once you have a steadily growing player base, you can start sandbagging to make the surprise for the current community huge, and make it feel like a new world to immerse yourself into.

    Furthermore, this can be used to adjust expectations. You can implement stuff like for instance balance changes, or reward system reworks, general goal posts for a mod etc - it works very well all together.

    I can go more in-depth regarding this topic via a post separate from this, where I can show what I mean, and why this is so important in my humble opinion.

    How:
    Implement a timeline or a goal post as a topic which you can edit as time goes on - when things should be implemented like you did for that timeline for future mods. This way we have tangible effect and we can see what has been decided in the past without gravedigging through old posts, and can see what's coming up long-term.

    Risks:
    Well, it gets more predictable - if we expect say mod20 some time early next year, it won't be as much of a surprise, but that in itself is a good thing too.

    It's possible that it will bite you in the butt if you set a time limit where we expect some change to arrive but then you get short staffed and you delay it. I've worked in WFM so I know how it gets.

    It is also just one more thing to maintain but I don't think that's too much of a problem as it's a long-term thing with somewhat frequent additions.

    Regardless, it would be a fine addition, and would clear a lot of things up for a lot of users, and for instance guys like RJC, Fabricant and that other TR lad I can't remember his name would definitely be able to work around those things, giving you ideas that they built around your goals as a business, rather than making something from the ground up that might be completely pointless due to a conflicting goal.

    Have a good one,

    Dorian.
  • huijianhuijian Member Posts: 73 Arc User
    I believe the CDP forum is fine the way it is and is moving in the right direction. Only Issue I've noticed at all is sometimes threads get a little off topic, aside from that its perfect imo.
  • plasticbatplasticbat Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 9,690 Arc User
    edited March 2020
    Regarding off topic and not letting it to continue, can the forum add some kind of "off topic" label so that other readers know they should not comment/bump it further?
  • spelldazerspelldazer Member Posts: 311 Arc User
    I don't understand the insistence on deleting off topic posts. What will happen to them isn't clear either.
  • plasticbatplasticbat Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 9,690 Arc User

    I am not sure if its possible to change the thread title to Phase 1 -> Phase 2 -> Phase 3 during a phase but that might more clearly delineate the phases. Also, if someone wants me to draft up examples of how the different forum formatting tools can be used to help make posts more readable, with some template examples of an unformatted post vs a formatted post, I do not mind to do so.

    Yes, you can change the post title. I have just changed the title of one of the posts I created.
  • sobi#1980 sobi Member Posts: 401 Arc User
    edited March 2020

    I don't understand the insistence on deleting off topic posts. What will happen to them isn't clear either.

    Deleting off-topic will make it easier for others to skim read if they start the CDP late and not get lost and the harsh stance towards toxic comments is a warning that the CDP is not designed for people to aloof.

    Most off-topic posts are actually toxic, so they go hand in hand. You'll see some of them here stating that the CDP is a failure and will end up failing. They are entitled to their opinion, as long as they keep it to themselves. If however, your tone was that the CDP is likely to fail and state your reasons, that may give Chris or others insight into any potential changes he could make. There has to be a constructive feedback to back up your critiquing, otherwise its either toxic, off topic or both.
  • jules#6770 jules Member Posts: 666 Arc User
    sobi#1980 said:

    I don't understand the insistence on deleting off topic posts. What will happen to them isn't clear either.

    Deleting off-topic will make it easier for others to skim read if they start the CDP late and not get lost and the harsh stance towards toxic comments is a warning that the CDP is not designed for people to aloof.

    Most off-topic posts are actually toxic, so they go hand in hand. You'll see some of them here stating that the CDP is a failure and will end up failing. They are entitled to their opinion, as long as they keep it to themselves. If however, your tone was that the CDP is likely to fail and state your reasons, that may give Chris or others insight into any potential changes he could make. There has to be a constructive feedback to back up your critiquing, otherwise its either toxic, off topic or both.
    And yet it is not so simple in practise, and deleting what one deems "offtopic" instead of moving it (to a reasonable/fitting place, depending of if it is deemed quality posts simply not on topic or toxic forum pvp) can, if taken overboard or executed on some people, and not on others, seem like there is some sort of censorship.
    Theoretically, of course. Its not like this seems likely in NW, right?
    - bye bye -
  • cwhitesidedev#9752 cwhitesidedev Member, Cryptic Developer Posts: 253 Cryptic Developer

    I am not sure if its possible to change the thread title to Phase 1 -> Phase 2 -> Phase 3 during a phase but that might more clearly delineate the phases. Also, if someone wants me to draft up examples of how the different forum formatting tools can be used to help make posts more readable, with some template examples of an unformatted post vs a formatted post, I do not mind to do so.

    Yes good idea. We will do that.

    Chris
  • plasticbatplasticbat Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 9,690 Arc User
    edited March 2020

    sobi#1980 said:

    I don't understand the insistence on deleting off topic posts. What will happen to them isn't clear either.

    Deleting off-topic will make it easier for others to skim read if they start the CDP late and not get lost and the harsh stance towards toxic comments is a warning that the CDP is not designed for people to aloof.

    Most off-topic posts are actually toxic, so they go hand in hand. You'll see some of them here stating that the CDP is a failure and will end up failing. They are entitled to their opinion, as long as they keep it to themselves. If however, your tone was that the CDP is likely to fail and state your reasons, that may give Chris or others insight into any potential changes he could make. There has to be a constructive feedback to back up your critiquing, otherwise its either toxic, off topic or both.
    And yet it is not so simple in practise, and deleting what one deems "offtopic" instead of moving it (to a reasonable/fitting place, depending of if it is deemed quality posts simply not on topic or toxic forum pvp) can, if taken overboard or executed on some people, and not on others, seem like there is some sort of censorship.
    Theoretically, of course. Its not like this seems likely in NW, right?
    A bunch of off topic posts were moved from another CDP thread and stored in a totally new thread in "General discussion (PC)" and the life of that alternative thread kept going for a long while.
  • jules#6770 jules Member Posts: 666 Arc User

    sobi#1980 said:

    I don't understand the insistence on deleting off topic posts. What will happen to them isn't clear either.

    Deleting off-topic will make it easier for others to skim read if they start the CDP late and not get lost and the harsh stance towards toxic comments is a warning that the CDP is not designed for people to aloof.

    Most off-topic posts are actually toxic, so they go hand in hand. You'll see some of them here stating that the CDP is a failure and will end up failing. They are entitled to their opinion, as long as they keep it to themselves. If however, your tone was that the CDP is likely to fail and state your reasons, that may give Chris or others insight into any potential changes he could make. There has to be a constructive feedback to back up your critiquing, otherwise its either toxic, off topic or both.
    And yet it is not so simple in practise, and deleting what one deems "offtopic" instead of moving it (to a reasonable/fitting place, depending of if it is deemed quality posts simply not on topic or toxic forum pvp) can, if taken overboard or executed on some people, and not on others, seem like there is some sort of censorship.
    Theoretically, of course. Its not like this seems likely in NW, right?
    A bunch of off topic posts were moved from another CDP thread and stored in a totally new thread in "General discussion (PC)" and the life of that alternative thread kept going for a long while.
    I know, I read it. Is that the general principle? Where will we find the posts? Spelldazers posts were put into XBOX iirc.
    - bye bye -
  • sobi#1980 sobi Member Posts: 401 Arc User
    Is there a place where i can learn or other CDP members can learn how to use spoilers and spoilers within spoilers?
  • plasticbatplasticbat Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 9,690 Arc User
    edited March 2020
    Can the forum be set up to have link to go to a particular post within a thread of posts?
    Right now, it can only allow making link to the thread. It is hard to find a particular post without searching many pages.
  • spelldazerspelldazer Member Posts: 311 Arc User
    edited March 2020
    > @jules#6770 said:
    > (Quote)
    > I know, I read it. Is that the general principle? Where will we find the posts? Spelldazers posts were put into XBOX iirc.

    My posts were put there at my request since I play on xbox. There should be a CDP-specific thread for the non-toxic off topics discussions. Although, I personally do not agree with this policy of deleting contributions.

    Been reading the ANET GW2 CDI threads all the way back to 2013 and looking closely at the threads on format and process there. For those who can be bothered to go through those, it did make it easier for me to understand what Chris has in mind. The resemblance to what is happening here in the NW CDPs is (unsurprisingly) remarkable. It's disheartening to me, personally, but at least I have a clearer understanding of the scope of the collaboration and what the process is likely going to be.
  • mordekai#1901 mordekai Member Posts: 1,598 Arc User
    Two last points from me

    1.
    Clear time lines are also important.

    Having a "We'll keep it open till it looks like we're just about done then announce a 1 or 2 day last chance" can leave people thinking "Damn, it shut yesterday..." when they were about to follow up or post an idea.

    I might be alone in this and just being selfish, but I have sort of waves of opportunity to get on. Often I can get a rush contract and have to leave the CDP for three or four days. A couple of times I've come back to find we've moved on to another phase or the CDP has closed entirely.

    Have a clear "This is when phase 1/2/3 ends. We may extend beyond that if it becomes clear more time is needed." and stick to that. "We're closing this in 2 days" is not best practise. Not everyone gets on every day, and sometimes you end up dragged away by real life for a few days and come back to find the thread has closed, or moved on.

    2.
    Letting people know about the CDP.
    I still believe that the in-game email is a vastly underused utility at the devs disposal, and if you want to get more people involved in the CDP, then telling them about it is probably the best way to make that happen.
    You can only guess at how many members of the player base watch Youtube videos or learn about the CDP through Social Media.
    You can, however, count how many people open an email in your game.
    It's there... it's free. Try using it. If it works, great, if it doesn't... so what?
    Or put a bloody great big notification about the CDP on the home screen when the game loads.
  • franklin223franklin223 Member Posts: 42 Arc User
    Again, if you want contributors to follow specific formatting guidelines then just make this section of your forums a form that we have to fill out.

    Players casually stopping by to provide an opinion on a topic of interest wont know your format requirements anyway. It is not user friendly and it is completely unnecessary for the purpose of providing an opinion.
  • gromovnipljesak#8234 gromovnipljesak Member Posts: 1,042 Arc User

    Morning All,

    We have one more day left before this CDP closes so I wanted to update the proposal I put forward following reading this CDP and see if we can get agreement and any further polish to the proposal as required:

    Phases
    1: Phase 1: Posting of Ideas and related questions (not discussion) (Tag Ideas with simple naming conventions such as Idea 1, Idea 2 and so on. If someone posts before you do and the number order is wrong just go and edit the latest Idea with the correct number).
    2: Phase 2: Discussion but not argument for the sake of it with more management of conversational direction and topics by me (CDP members can pick ideas for discussion as well).
    3: Phase 3: Top 3 with a single sentence of why for each line item.
    Conclusion: Proposal

    Regarding Phase 1 Format:
    Heading (Idea number)>Goal>Why>What>Concerns and Considerations (Try to limit to 400 words) (Spoiler functionality is welcome should a member want to provide more detail in any of the above headings).

    Overall Best Working Practices
    - Every Phase change will see thread closure for a day or 2 in order to allow everyone to catch up.
    - Phase change will be better presented in the CDP making the current goal for the CDP clearer.
    - CDP intro will provide more guidance as well as success criteria for the CDP.
    - Chris, Julia and Kreatyve to be more aggressive on off-topic posts and disrespectful posts (Offtopic posts will be removed as will toxic ones. Repeated toxicity will lead to a CDP ban)
    - More focused topics (but please note CDP 3 was intentionally broad due to the fact it is a child of CDP 1 and we have begun work on CDP 1 in relation to Mod 20 and prior and therefore timing is key).
    - Moving forward we will give options for upcoming CDPs and gather info as to CDP priority level.
    - I would really appreciate it if CDP members could help newer CDP members with what they have learnt about the project best working practices as well as repeating information in regard to the CDP that has already been shared such as CDP Goals, Mission, Purpose etc (I will update this in the kick off post with Julia as well).

    For the time being I would like us to try these changes and see the impact. For the time being I don't want us to try turning one thread into many. I feel like this is going to end up being like a spiders web both in terms of search and new CDP member accessibility.

    Note following the end of the current CDPs there is going to be a 2 week break before a new one is started (This will allow everyone to have a break).

    Thanks

    Chris

    Awesome work @cwhitesidedev#9752

    Maybe pin this above the CDP, or make an excel-esque form that we fill out.

    Also, another quick idea - make a list of upcoming CDPs so they can be thought-out previously to making posts. I'd love this.
  • thefabricantthefabricant Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 5,247 Arc User
    I know its a bit late with regards for adding to this thread, but I have the following questions about the CDP, which I think clarifying would help us moving forward to provide better feedback if we knew the answer to.
    • What phase of development do you want us to focus our feedback on? Do you want feedback on planning, feedback on design, or just small modifications to the final product to be our main focus.
    • Right now you are responding to near enough every post (which is great) and are often saying you agree, or disagree with the idea of a post. Often though (and this is particularly evident when you agree with something), you do not comment on the implementation. This leads to a lot of hopes being built up, when you may just be agreeing with the problem that needs to be solved, and not with the proposed solution. The benefit of programs like this is, if they work then they are a great way to build trust in a community. However, the downside is, they remove the "customer - corporation" barrier, or at least, they reduce it a huge amount, which means that if players do feel their trust is betrayed, they will take it a lot more personally than if the initiative had not been there in the first place. Players need to be very clear on what they can expect to see out of each initiative, otherwise in a years time you can expect to see hot water about it.
  • cwhitesidedev#9752 cwhitesidedev Member, Cryptic Developer Posts: 253 Cryptic Developer
    Hi All,

    Thanks for all your time and effort in this CDP it has been a really interesting and tumultuous discussion but i think we got there in the end.

    Here is the proposal (And as per @gromovnipljesak#8234 post above it will be stickied along with a high level description of the CDP Goal, Mission and Pillars:

    Phases (Topic Name Will be updated to reflect each stage of the CDP)
    1: Phase 1: Posting of Ideas and related questions (not discussion) (Tag Ideas with simple naming conventions such as Idea 1, Idea 2 and so on. If someone posts before you do and the number order is wrong just go and edit the latest Idea with the correct number).
    2: Phase 2: Discussion but not argument for the sake of it with more management of conversational direction and topics by me (CDP members can pick ideas for discussion as well).
    3: Phase 3: Top 3 with a single sentence of why for each line item.
    Conclusion: Proposal

    Regarding Phase 1 Format:
    Heading (Idea number)>Goal>Why>What>Concerns and Considerations (Try to limit to 400 words) (Spoiler functionality is welcome should a member want to provide more detail in any of the above headings).

    Overall Best Working Practices
    - Every Phase change will see thread closure for a day or 2 in order to allow everyone to catch up.
    - Phase change will be better presented in the CDP making the current goal for the CDP clearer.
    - CDP intro will provide more guidance as well as success criteria for the CDP.
    - Chris, Julia and Kreatyve to be more aggressive on off-topic posts and disrespectful posts (Offtopic posts will be removed as will toxic ones. Repeated toxicity will lead to a CDP ban)
    - More focused topics (but please note CDP 3 was intentionally broad due to the fact it is a child of CDP 1 and we have begun work on CDP 1 in relation to Mod 20 and prior and therefore timing is key).
    - Moving forward we will give options for upcoming CDPs and gather info as to CDP priority level.
    - I would really appreciate it if CDP members could help newer CDP members with what they have learnt about the project best working practices as well as repeating information in regard to the CDP that has already been shared such as CDP Goals, Mission, Purpose etc (I will update this in the kick off post with Julia as well).

    I am locking the thread now. We may well offer options for the next CDP but we will be taking a 2 week break in the interim. Meanwhile feel free to message me if you want to chat and once again thanks for all of your time, ideas and passion.

    Chris
  • cwhitesidedev#9752 cwhitesidedev Member, Cryptic Developer Posts: 253 Cryptic Developer

    I know its a bit late with regards for adding to this thread, but I have the following questions about the CDP, which I think clarifying would help us moving forward to provide better feedback if we knew the answer to.

    • What phase of development do you want us to focus our feedback on? Do you want feedback on planning, feedback on design, or just small modifications to the final product to be our main focus.
    • Right now you are responding to near enough every post (which is great) and are often saying you agree, or disagree with the idea of a post. Often though (and this is particularly evident when you agree with something), you do not comment on the implementation. This leads to a lot of hopes being built up, when you may just be agreeing with the problem that needs to be solved, and not with the proposed solution. The benefit of programs like this is, if they work then they are a great way to build trust in a community. However, the downside is, they remove the "customer - corporation" barrier, or at least, they reduce it a huge amount, which means that if players do feel their trust is betrayed, they will take it a lot more personally than if the initiative had not been there in the first place. Players need to be very clear on what they can expect to see out of each initiative, otherwise in a years time you can expect to see hot water about it.
    Thanks for the feedback Sharp. Even though the thread is closed I wanted to respond. Regarding type of feedback it is generally ideation, discussion, problem solving and evolution around the parent topic and its children. Implementation feedback can be included in spoilers as an example and in some cases we will ask for it. This said I also want to work out how to use the CDP as development starts on an a proposal line item at certain gates of development progress. We have been thinking about this and have some ideas already so stay tuned.

    Finally and this is very important building trust in the community is not a CDP goal or pillar. If that happens then great but in order to achieve that we need to execute on intent. Therefore it is not a pillar of the program. The main pillar being We build worlds together.

    Chris
This discussion has been closed.