That was why I calculated the 93.488 million as the DPS that procd the bilethorn in that LOMM out of the 124 mil. That's important, because the 5% should be on every initial proc(swing). Of the 93.488 million, that 5% would be 4.6744 mil. The 2nd proc you bring up is the 4 sec, that isn't guaranteed unless they're alive, and goes up more than the 5% if have flank and crit. Around 1610 swings procd the 5%, but only another 760 gave the x2 in the dungeon and still added 8.2066 mil. That's why the number of times the 4 sec procs is the big damage swing. The 5% from vorpal rank 14 and bilethorn 14 should be close to equal, only swinging if certain hits can proc from one and not the other.
I do understand that in LOMM most swings won't give x2 as that would happen after 4 secs when mobs have already died, most of the times. So it begs the question, whether the 1st proc damage is automatically added to the let's say at will damage because i only ever saw 1 number float whenever i used an encounter etc. If so, that would make the 40mag a bit more because it is added with another big number and any %dmg buff would increase it more. Though the real factor is the x2 proc that is inflating Bile's dps.
Why don't you try a rotation on a dummy yourself (preferably on live) and show us the results? I have already made a thread on this on preview bugs, but i need a live version of bile to test and i am broke af to buy one. Any rank at this point would be fine as long as we can show x2 proc is on live as well.
I'll let someone else prove it with an ACT log, but I can assure you that bile isn't double proccing on live, nor is it proccing off of Steel Blitz. I get the initial 5% and one DoT per swing, so it must be a preview only issue.
Fairly certain the reason it shows x2 procs per swing, is 1 proc is the 5% and the other the 4 sec dot, and it combines the hits. On Sobi test, he hit 6 times, and it procd 12 times, 6 for the 5%, and 6 for the DOT. Biggest thing throwing off the totals I think in bigger tests, and is off by a few swings, is the bloodletter counting as a swing when it hurts you(maybe haha).
Me and my Barb friends were talking about this. Apparently, on all of his bile tests he never got 50% crit and 30-35% is the norm. I checked all the ACT logs that i had saved and bile was never at 50%. For barb, who brocs bile over 200x the crit % chance should balance out on 50% or close to it (most of the times). I am not sure if this will increase bile %dmg but what it is doing is reducing the overall crit% value for bile in comparison to vorpal.
Bile has some weird behavior, where the second hit cannot critically strike when triggered off of some powers which results in it having a lower than average crit chance. Here is a table listing how many times the 1st and 2nd Bile procs trigger off each wizard power and whether the second hit can or cannot critically strike off of that power:
Also, live, ranger using bile: Wizard:
I don't have a log of SW or Barb on hand, but for both its over 15%. TR was 12%ish afaik as well. All of this in ToMM.
That was why I calculated the 93.488 million as the DPS that procd the bilethorn in that LOMM out of the 124 mil. That's important, because the 5% should be on every initial proc(swing). Of the 93.488 million, that 5% would be 4.6744 mil. The 2nd proc you bring up is the 4 sec, that isn't guaranteed unless they're alive, and goes up more than the 5% if have flank and crit. Around 1610 swings procd the 5%, but only another 760 gave the x2 in the dungeon and still added 8.2066 mil. That's why the number of times the 4 sec procs is the big damage swing. The 5% from vorpal rank 14 and bilethorn 14 should be close to equal, only swinging if certain hits can proc from one and not the other.
I do understand that in LOMM most swings won't give x2 as that would happen after 4 secs when mobs have already died, most of the times. So it begs the question, whether the 1st proc damage is automatically added to the let's say at will damage because i only ever saw 1 number float whenever i used an encounter etc. If so, that would make the 40mag a bit more because it is added with another big number and any %dmg buff would increase it more. Though the real factor is the x2 proc that is inflating Bile's dps.
Why don't you try a rotation on a dummy yourself (preferably on live) and show us the results? I have already made a thread on this on preview bugs, but i need a live version of bile to test and i am broke af to buy one. Any rank at this point would be fine as long as we can show x2 proc is on live as well.
I'll let someone else prove it with an ACT log, but I can assure you that bile isn't double proccing on live, nor is it proccing off of Steel Blitz. I get the initial 5% and one DoT per swing, so it must be a preview only issue.
Fairly certain the reason it shows x2 procs per swing, is 1 proc is the 5% and the other the 4 sec dot, and it combines the hits. On Sobi test, he hit 6 times, and it procd 12 times, 6 for the 5%, and 6 for the DOT. Biggest thing throwing off the totals I think in bigger tests, and is off by a few swings, is the bloodletter counting as a swing when it hurts you(maybe haha).
Me and my Barb friends were talking about this. Apparently, on all of his bile tests he never got 50% crit and 30-35% is the norm. I checked all the ACT logs that i had saved and bile was never at 50%. For barb, who brocs bile over 200x the crit % chance should balance out on 50% or close to it (most of the times). I am not sure if this will increase bile %dmg but what it is doing is reducing the overall crit% value for bile in comparison to vorpal.
Bile has some weird behavior, where the second hit cannot critically strike when triggered off of some powers which results in it having a lower than average crit chance. Here is a table listing how many times the 1st and 2nd Bile procs trigger off each wizard power and whether the second hit can or cannot critically strike off of that power:
Also, live, ranger using bile: Wizard:
I don't have a log of SW or Barb on hand, but for both its over 15%. TR was 12%ish afaik as well. All of this in ToMM.
On a barb, the second hit doesn't crit when using Sure Strike or Brash Strike at-wills. On a warlock, it's the same case with Hand of Blight and Eldritch Blast.
Bile has some weird behavior, where the second hit cannot critically strike when triggered off of some powers which results in it having a lower than average crit chance. Here is a table listing how many times the 1st and 2nd Bile procs trigger off each wizard power and whether the second hit can or cannot critically strike off of that power:
As far as i know, none of my cleric abilities were proccing the 2nd hit of Bile and so i assumed this was an intended behaviour. With some tests, my barb friend is getting around 1.6mil+ dmg with bile whereas as a cleric with similar gear i am getting 1.4-1.5mil with vorpal. The barb friend is also not skill ceiling as that is not his main class. Wiz and rangers also benefit more with bile on longer fights and this difference is glaringly high when their power/gear is not BiS. Rogues probably benefit as much as barb or even more. So it seems like in the current situation, Bile is BiS for some classes outright and for some (cleric) Vorpal is BiS. If the 2nd hit was to crit, this balance will shift to Bile for all classes.
Other findings i found was that:
Bile 2nd proc multiplies with CA Gear %dmg affect the 2nd proc but this was extremely difficult to judge without being able to use wooden sword. Seems like 2nd Dot of bile doesn't benefit fully from class buffs and artifacts. Power affects the 2nd bile proc.
Bile has some weird behavior, where the second hit cannot critically strike when triggered off of some powers which results in it having a lower than average crit chance. Here is a table listing how many times the 1st and 2nd Bile procs trigger off each wizard power and whether the second hit can or cannot critically strike off of that power:
I just checked, 2nd proc of bile doesn't crit for any of my encounters or at wills that i use for my rotation (cleric).
Has anyone checked Paladin skills with Bile? I was going to do ACT testing last night, but the price of a multi-hit Bile enchantment became a show stopper. Mostly curious if Bane encounter and Shielding Strike at-will will multi proc it.
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thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
Gear %dmg affect the 2nd proc but this was extremely difficult to judge without being able to use wooden sword.
On preview there are weapons on the preview tab in the Wondrous Bazaar that have 1000-1000 damage and a weapon enhancement slot. Bile is generally not buffed by increases to specific damage types (example: 3% encounter damage) but general buffs such as enduring boots work on it.
I guess my main question, is since all buffs are multiplied in 1 pool: base x combat adv x crit sev x buffs, do the buffs effect the bilethorn damage. I've seen in some of the posts that the 2nd hit doesn't crit. Say you have combat adv, 150% crits sev and 25% self buffs( wouldn't multiplier at max be 2(combat adv) x 2.5 (crit sev) x 1.25(buffs) for x6.25 multiplier for flank/crit? I figure that would factor in, if bilethorn isn't getting all of those multiplied through. Sorry about the lack of more tests, had to give bilethorn back, didn't want to make him nervous.
I guess my main question, is since all buffs are multiplied in 1 pool: base x combat adv x crit sev x buffs, do the buffs effect the bilethorn damage. I've seen in some of the posts that the 2nd hit doesn't crit. Say you have combat adv, 150% crits sev and 25% self buffs( wouldn't multiplier at max be 2(combat adv) x 2.5 (crit sev) x 1.25(buffs) for x6.25 multiplier for flank/crit? I figure that would factor in, if bilethorn isn't getting all of those multiplied through. Sorry about the lack of more tests, had to give bilethorn back, didn't want to make him nervous.
The first proc of bile probably will have all those multipliers. The 2nd proc however seems limited, it definitely does benefit fully from CA but not as much from %buffs. I think that probably is intended considering it is currently BiS for nearly all top dps classes on longer ST fights.
Think about it in layman terms, Vorpal at 114% base crit gives 6.4% more dps and around 6% for barb/ranger. Lets balance out the initial 5% that both vorpal and bile give and not discuss them at all.
Every hit bile would give you 40mag, whereas for vorpal to give you the same amount of mag per hit, you would need to hit 625mag of damage per hit! The reason why bile is in place right now is that this mag fortunately can crit so my 400 mag encounter with my base 214% base crit would make it 856mag but on a non crit it will lose to bile. But considering classes relying on at wills with much lower mag but faster cast time, i just cannot see for the life of me how vorpal can even compare with Bile, for these classes that is.
It is a relatively simple maths and at this point i am not even considering that bile's 2nd proc may crit on some of their abilities. I am assuming it doesn't crit at all (ascertain for cleric at least) but if it does start critting like normal, you'll see a huge impact in the balance. Right now i am busy but bile still requires testing.
Remember, testing bile itself has no purpose. We have more or less acknowledged which classes it is BiS for and that is relatively simple and the market portrays this perfectly clear. What however we haven't done is to compare the marginal difference between vorpal and Bile for the same classes especially those that are benefiting from bile the most aka barb/rogue and wiz.
The best way to test this is to check encdps for bile and for vorpal and compare those values. For vorpal you would have to multiply 0.064 with the total damage dealt (or whatever vorpal gives you based on your crit sev) then divide that number by 60 and add it to the already ACT value for vorpal. So for example, Bile is giving my Barb friend with similar gear at least 26k encdps at rank 12, vorpal at rank 12 is giving me maybe 24-25encpds. But i need a skill ceiling barb and a skill ceiling rogue to give me their values.
You can use Bile rank 12 on preview btw, instead of borrowing it from your friend. The purpose is to compare with vorpal so as long as they are same rank then it doesn't matter what rank they are.
Comments
Also, live, ranger using bile:
Wizard:
I don't have a log of SW or Barb on hand, but for both its over 15%. TR was 12%ish afaik as well. All of this in ToMM.
Ereshkigal - 12k Tiefling SW
Aurora Ravensong - 11.6k Drow CW
Other findings i found was that:
Bile 2nd proc multiplies with CA
Gear %dmg affect the 2nd proc but this was extremely difficult to judge without being able to use wooden sword.
Seems like 2nd Dot of bile doesn't benefit fully from class buffs and artifacts.
Power affects the 2nd bile proc.
I just checked, 2nd proc of bile doesn't crit for any of my encounters or at wills that i use for my rotation (cleric).
Think about it in layman terms, Vorpal at 114% base crit gives 6.4% more dps and around 6% for barb/ranger. Lets balance out the initial 5% that both vorpal and bile give and not discuss them at all.
Every hit bile would give you 40mag, whereas for vorpal to give you the same amount of mag per hit, you would need to hit 625mag of damage per hit! The reason why bile is in place right now is that this mag fortunately can crit so my 400 mag encounter with my base 214% base crit would make it 856mag but on a non crit it will lose to bile. But considering classes relying on at wills with much lower mag but faster cast time, i just cannot see for the life of me how vorpal can even compare with Bile, for these classes that is.
It is a relatively simple maths and at this point i am not even considering that bile's 2nd proc may crit on some of their abilities. I am assuming it doesn't crit at all (ascertain for cleric at least) but if it does start critting like normal, you'll see a huge impact in the balance. Right now i am busy but bile still requires testing.
Remember, testing bile itself has no purpose. We have more or less acknowledged which classes it is BiS for and that is relatively simple and the market portrays this perfectly clear. What however we haven't done is to compare the marginal difference between vorpal and Bile for the same classes especially those that are benefiting from bile the most aka barb/rogue and wiz.
The best way to test this is to check encdps for bile and for vorpal and compare those values. For vorpal you would have to multiply 0.064 with the total damage dealt (or whatever vorpal gives you based on your crit sev) then divide that number by 60 and add it to the already ACT value for vorpal. So for example, Bile is giving my Barb friend with similar gear at least 26k encdps at rank 12, vorpal at rank 12 is giving me maybe 24-25encpds. But i need a skill ceiling barb and a skill ceiling rogue to give me their values.
You can use Bile rank 12 on preview btw, instead of borrowing it from your friend. The purpose is to compare with vorpal so as long as they are same rank then it doesn't matter what rank they are.