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Bile has further disrupted the class balance.
Before i begin, i just want to state that this post is not aimed at any person or class. It is simply to scrutinise the current balance of dps classes in the game.
After the balance update, how many Barb,clerics or warlocks do you see topping the charts? So with that in mind, we can all admit that there is still a significant disparity between the 4 dps classes and the top 3 pure dps classes. This is not the subject of this post so please don't discuss this.
The point i want to make is that Bile has further increased this disparity. If you do the maths and consider Cleric,warlock, wiz, fighter and rogue at 114% base crit sev + potions , then vorpal R14 should provide (0.5 * 0.2) / (1 + 0.5 * 1.14) = 6.4% increase in dps (thanks to solanacea) + 5% initial DOT = 11.4%. Please note, Bile procs 2x per hit, one for the initial 5% proc and the second proc is the 40 mag. On the other hand, Vorpal procs once per hit i.e. the intial 5% per hit but the crit sev bonus will have to be added yourself on top of the % shown for Vorpal damage on ACT.
With my cleric, i am doing 6-7% or so with Bile. I am pretty sure that clerics uses the least amount of at wills or any Dots than any other class, so they should benefit the least from Bile, which has no internal cooldown for procs. Wiz do around 8%-10% dps with bile, considering the crit chance is 50%, otherwise if lower, the bile % dmg will be higher. If we assume Barb and ranger at around 145% crit sev with potions, they get around 5.8% more dps with vorpal R14+ 5% DOT = 10.8%. Few Barb tests (below) show that they are doing around 11-13% with bile (when calculated at 50% crit). Ranger proc bile even less than wiz.
With that in mind, the order at which classes benefit the most from Bile (in my opinion) is:
Barb / Rogue> Wiz> Ranger/Warlock>Fighter>Cleric
Dots apparently proc Bile but not all of them. Similarly, not all abilities proc bile i.e. if they are class features or class feats . Lastly, Bile does proc on multiple targets but since the main 40mag procs after 4 secs, more experienced players consider Lightning enchantment BiS for trash.
The maths above is not without some discrepancies but the order of which class Bile benefits should more or less not change. If we specifically focus on that order, you can see that other than barb and rogue, Vorpal is BiS for all other classes. It seems like rogues may benefit more from bile than a barb i.e. 2-3% max more.
Suggestions
Why not let everyone benefit as equally as possible from bile? If bile proc magnitude was scaled to the amount of magnitude you use, then classes that can spam encounters can benefit equally to those that rely heavily on at-will.
EDIT:
Findings:
When i made this post, the presumption was that vorpal did only 4.75% dps and because of that Bile seemed to be really strong, especially for rogue/wiz which are already top 2 dps classes. But now, it seems that bile is BiS for Barb and Rogue only, the former is not a problem but with no tests regarding the latter, i cannot say exactly how much they benefit from Bile in comparison to Vorpal.
@noworries#8859 Is Bile working as intented?
@thefabricant @tom#6998 Is there somthing i am missing out above?
After the balance update, how many Barb,clerics or warlocks do you see topping the charts? So with that in mind, we can all admit that there is still a significant disparity between the 4 dps classes and the top 3 pure dps classes. This is not the subject of this post so please don't discuss this.
The point i want to make is that Bile has further increased this disparity. If you do the maths and consider Cleric,warlock, wiz, fighter and rogue at 114% base crit sev + potions , then vorpal R14 should provide (0.5 * 0.2) / (1 + 0.5 * 1.14) = 6.4% increase in dps (thanks to solanacea) + 5% initial DOT = 11.4%. Please note, Bile procs 2x per hit, one for the initial 5% proc and the second proc is the 40 mag. On the other hand, Vorpal procs once per hit i.e. the intial 5% per hit but the crit sev bonus will have to be added yourself on top of the % shown for Vorpal damage on ACT.
With my cleric, i am doing 6-7% or so with Bile. I am pretty sure that clerics uses the least amount of at wills or any Dots than any other class, so they should benefit the least from Bile, which has no internal cooldown for procs. Wiz do around 8%-10% dps with bile, considering the crit chance is 50%, otherwise if lower, the bile % dmg will be higher. If we assume Barb and ranger at around 145% crit sev with potions, they get around 5.8% more dps with vorpal R14+ 5% DOT = 10.8%. Few Barb tests (below) show that they are doing around 11-13% with bile (when calculated at 50% crit). Ranger proc bile even less than wiz.
With that in mind, the order at which classes benefit the most from Bile (in my opinion) is:
Barb / Rogue> Wiz> Ranger/Warlock>Fighter>Cleric
Dots apparently proc Bile but not all of them. Similarly, not all abilities proc bile i.e. if they are class features or class feats . Lastly, Bile does proc on multiple targets but since the main 40mag procs after 4 secs, more experienced players consider Lightning enchantment BiS for trash.
The maths above is not without some discrepancies but the order of which class Bile benefits should more or less not change. If we specifically focus on that order, you can see that other than barb and rogue, Vorpal is BiS for all other classes. It seems like rogues may benefit more from bile than a barb i.e. 2-3% max more.
Suggestions
Why not let everyone benefit as equally as possible from bile? If bile proc magnitude was scaled to the amount of magnitude you use, then classes that can spam encounters can benefit equally to those that rely heavily on at-will.
EDIT:
Findings:
When i made this post, the presumption was that vorpal did only 4.75% dps and because of that Bile seemed to be really strong, especially for rogue/wiz which are already top 2 dps classes. But now, it seems that bile is BiS for Barb and Rogue only, the former is not a problem but with no tests regarding the latter, i cannot say exactly how much they benefit from Bile in comparison to Vorpal.
@noworries#8859 Is Bile working as intented?
@thefabricant @tom#6998 Is there somthing i am missing out above?
Post edited by sobi#1980 on
3
Comments
Like, my owlbear on hunter path do 5% of dmg, on warden it do less than 3% dmg... cause, first hunter got higher hits per second, second cause hunter path making lower dmg than warden.
Sorry, i don't understand. Other than Arcanist, rogues and rangers woop our HAMSTER.es on AOE with having no real disadvantage as being melee especially against trash. But your answer is really weird, you shouldn't be balancing ST in comparison to AOE. We have a disparity of like 40% from warlock to rogue and you telling me that was done so because warlocks are doing 40% more aoe? A well played rogue has beaten me on countless times in aoe as a dps cleric, and i was wondering all that time that my aoe was great.
Sorry if i really didn't understand your comment.
Seriously, we have two other pieces that illuminate enemies with variable shades of fire - and previously BIS feytouched and dread, that perform... eh, not so well for any purposes at all.
In my eyes, the performance of bilethorn is a bug. And I fear it will be corrected shortly. (actually, we had !exactly! the same scenario here already)
As far as I can tell the goal is to make all enchantments generally useless. In that "utopian" vision, weapon enchantments are just an astronomical investment to add 5% damage to your arsenal, you only have to choose the colour you enjoy the most.
My post is trying to get across, that i get it, other than vorpal something else needs to be Bis for the dev's to make money. But at least, make it so that all classes benefit equally from it = more people buy it. Right now as a cleric dps, i have no incentive to buy it and my dps is further away from rogue/wiz than before because of Bile being just that good on them. My suggestion tackles this situation perfectly where everyone benefits equally.
Anyway, you further explained why is bilethorn behaving like it is - and I will repeat: there is no reason why it is like that. In dps it should be roughly equal to plaguefire an vastly inferior to flaming. That is the issue - bilet should have the slow effect, plague debuffs - it is the flaming that is supposed to add some extra damage as it does not have other effect.
Bilethorn was designed as a control enchant, not dps. (=is closer to frost in design)
I seriously do no longer expect that anything would make sense in this game, however Bilethorn is clearly behaving outside its design - or other enchants are crippled too much. My pick points to the second option, but when devs are deciding between nerf and boost...
Ereshkigal - 12k Tiefling SW
Aurora Ravensong - 11.6k Drow CW
You can see the proof in the small video bellow. While I attack the middle dummy, you can see the lightning procs to the ones left and right and even tho I use all consuming curse, lesser curse isn't applied to the other two.
If you add 20%, the multipler is then 2.34, no need to divide 20 through the 214 as you did to say 5%. The multiplier goes up .2 on top from 20% crit sev. I tested on 100-100 weapon all the way from 100% crit sev to 140%. Multipler went from 2 to 2.4 on crit hits. 20% crit sev x 50% chance is 10% dps, and then also multiples by combat adv as well as its own multiplier.
crit sev of 110% x 2.1 base hit
crit sev of 125% x 2.25 base hit
crit sev of 130% x 2.3 base hit
crit sev of 140% x 2.4 base hit
From your act logs:
Crit hit with 110% Crit severity = 299.7
Crit hit with 130% Crit severity = 328.2
To see the damage increase we do 328.2/299.7 = 1.095 or 9.5% on crit. Since we critic half the time (not so true for some classes) 9.5/2 = 4.75% damage increase overall when one is at 110% Crit severity. The numbers change slightly if one has different Crit severity Values.
Keep in mind that vorpal and all other enchants will also do a 5% additional hit. The above values are for Vorpal at rank 14. Other ranks offer less.
Edit: had a typo on the numbers. Thank you sobi
Then combat adv multiplier kicks in x that. Call it overall increase of 5%, but the total multipler for crit and flank go up much higher, the higher the crit sev. Higher the better IMO.
Sorry i am confused, 9.5/2 = 5.4% or is it 4.75%?
Let's go through the maths, help me if go wrong please.
Damage formula = Base damage x crit sev x CA x %dmg buffs
Lets assume Base damage = 100
CA = 100%
dmg buffs = X
At 110% crit sev the formula will look like this:
Damage = 100 x 2.1 x 2 x X = 420X
With addition of Vorpal, at 130% crit sev, it will look like
Damage = 100 x 2.3 x 2 x X = 460X
Damage increase = 460 / 420 = 9.5%
9.5% x 0.5 (50% chance crit) = 4.75
The above ACT numbers confirm this i.e. 328.2/299.7 = 1.095 x 0.5% = 4.75%
My easy formula also confirms this i.e. (20/210) x 0.5 = 4.76%
Below are the ACT values of Barb, wiz and cleric dps with bilethorn Rank 12.
https://imgur.com/a/sxiLwyR
15% bile dmg for Barb at rank 12, 18.75% at rank 14.
9% for wiz at rank 12 Bile
7% for Cleric rank 12 Bile
So the 4.75% of Vorpal is already beaten by all of the above classes. If cleric can beat it, anyone can from my knowledge and as i have stated in my initial post.
The 5% dmg for encounters, at wills and dailies that bile and vorpal give at max rank cancels each other out.
Edit: also a question, in the test were you hitting multiple targets? 200 strikes of bilethorn, and 120 total other swings, including steel blitz(not sure if that procs it), does it proc more than once per target per swing, or just relentless and not so fast hitting multiple targets during test?
https://imgur.com/a/PXFiKBH
Ereshkigal - 12k Tiefling SW
Aurora Ravensong - 11.6k Drow CW
My Barb friend has replied to your above comment and he also tested wiz. I main only cleric and because you said that at 50% crit, bile will do less for you then i have good news. At 50% , bile does around 12% dps for a barb considering ur daily crits and you get constant CA. In my cleric dps i got even less, i got no crit on my daily and i also got 32% overall crit. That's why usually i get 3.5%-4% when i dont mess up by cleric rotation and everything crits on average. I am not against barb doing more dmg, but pure dps classes doing even 1% more dmg is overkill now, it is too much favouratism at this point and time. Imagine, tomorrow gear will benefit them as well. Say goodbye to barb being dps then.
You're doing the maths the wrong way. You should be comparing a critical damage with another critical damage but with higher crit sev. Not the other way around.
The formula now multiplies crit sev, so that means 100% crit sev will add 100% more dmg i.e. 2x overall. So if you were to add 10% crit sev, ofcourse you will get .1x the damage. That is common sense.
Now try to do the maths where you're comparing both critical hits. At 110% crit sev, vorpal will add 20% making it 130%. Therefore the crit increase damage from 110% (299.7) / Crit sev damage at 130% (328.2) = 9.5% increase as shown by apollo above and x 0.5 gives you 4.75%
Flank has nothing to do with your crit sev. You will x by crit sev first as in the formula and then with CA. So the formula is
Damage = Base damage x Crit sev x CA x %dmg buffs
Now lets say you get 30% overall crit, your overall damage will be lower but with higher crit it will be vice versa and that balances the rng out.
So if your base damage is100 and you have146% crit sev, then 100% crit will do 2.46x the damage with the new formula.
With 30% crit:
Damage = 100 x (0.3 x 2.46 ) x 2 x X = 147.6 with CA
Damage without CA = 100 x (0.3 x 2.46 ) x X = 73.8 WITHOUT CA
147.6/73.8 = 2 (CA adds 2x the damage)
Now at 50% crit:
Damage = 100 x (0.5 x 2.46) x 2 x X= 246 with CA
100 x (0.5 x 2.46) x X = 123
Comparing 30% crit sev with 50%
246 / 147.6 = 123/73.8 ( Crit or not, the % increase remains the same)
There is no difference if there is CA or not, the damage increase is going to be the same for crit sev. You have to remember to compare a critical strike with critical strike if you are testing crit sev otherwise you'll just be going in circles.
With that in mind, considering in all circumstances that you have 100% CA uptime and 50% crit strike, vorpal does at 110% base crit sev around 4.75% dps, without taking into account the 5% arcane damage it gives but the same applies to Bile.
Lastly i think the 40mag of bile multiplies by your base damage i.e. your weapon damage x your power. You can't test it with wooden weapon as it doesn't have weapon slot but it makes sense, as the 40mag for bile works the same way as mag for your encounters do. So 100mag = 100%weapon damage which is then multiplied with your power multiplier and that is ur base damage for the formula i believe. Then multiply it by Crit sev and CA and dmg buffs and u got your final damage.
As far as my HR goes, I've been pretty underwhelmed by the R9 Bilethorn I bought (only does ~4% of my DPS according to ACT, which includes the 2.5% bonus that all wep enchantments get) so I think I'll stick to Vorpal.