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  • martins#2911 martins Posts: 49Member Arc User
    Soulwever
    Congratulations you got it on Soulwever, this perfect, passive Dark Revelry crit avoidence, Soul Bind tweaks, to be better would passive Prince of Hell is now 5000 Armor Penetration for 5000 crit strike.

    Hellbringer - SI is already so long to stack, and we still get a nerf, keep 25% and see how it will be.
    Hellfire Expertise no longer increases Fire and Necrotic Damage - Keep at + 25% DMG, even though the DMG base is changing, I did some testing in the preview and we're hitting less than before.
    We need another encounter to stack SI, other than killing boss or mobs, one that does the same thing as Hadars Grasp. CW stack 6x Chill holding at-will, pls help us!

    With the magnitudes changed and maintaining our buffs, we may be an acceptable class together with other dps.

    @noworries#8859 You guys did everything Soulwever perfect, do the same on Hellbringer!
  • abwabwabaabwabwaba Posts: 58Member Arc User
    Would be nice to see Harrow Storm and Hellfire Ring apply curse through they entire duration and not just on the first hit. I mean if a mob enters later in the placed Hellfire Ring should be cursed even if it wasnt caught with the first main hit. And Harrow storm should apply curse after the first circling too.

    Plus it would be nice to see that Soulweaver could gain 25% of the amount of sparks as on Hellbringer path through crit strikes.

    Taking away Killing Flames from general choices shouldnt happen - the only good "burst" spell for both path. I don't mind to lose or simply delete Dreadtheft as it is cuz its just a mehh spell, gets interrupted all the time (nobody uses imo). In its place rather BoVa or Arms of Hadar (if the targeting part of this gets fixed, since it still does miss targets if casted while a jump /or just fast shadow slip to the targets and cast instantly /or the ground isnt total flat - so it misses often).
    Hide The Pain Harold!
  • lordtweety#3604 lordtweety Posts: 273Member Arc User



    Because of the changes to damage buffs discussed in the other thread.


    I read the other threads and I can't see how this is going to be a boost at all. On paper, this is just more of the nerf bat.



    There is a glaring problem with this already.
    Warlock buffs are currently multiplying, so we are gonna take a nerf there. which is to be expected with the change. but with removing the 25% buff to necrotic and fire damage, every warlock power is going to do 25% less base damage already. So even to get the exact same damage as we do currently, EVERY POWER needs to have its magnitude increased by 25% BY DEFAULT just to deal the same base damage as on live!

    so every power not mentioned in the above list is actually getting nerfed by 25% by default THIS IS A HUGE NERF when what we needed was a buff.
    Every at will is taking a 25% nerf, and already our at will are by far the weakest of every class, our best at will, hellish rebuke on live does 30 magnitude. every 0.7seconds. with buffs. we will assume full sparks - 4.5%. intellect at 6.5%, warlocks curse 10% double ebonised rings 3%, (1.03x1.03). and hellfire expertise buff 25%. and No pity no mercy, which removes the dot but increases initial hit by 25%.
    SO on live, ignoring power, Hellish rebuke with NPNM feature is..... 37.5 x (1.045 x 1.065 x 1.10 x 1.03 x 1.03 x 1.25)
    a 62% increase
    which is 60.879 magnitude, so lets be generous and round that up to 61magnitude every 0.7 seconds. or 87.1 mag/sec

    After these changes it will be 37.5 x ( 6+6.5+10+3+3/100)
    28.5% increase
    48.1875 magnitude or 69 magnitude/sec

    But lets ignore the buff changes and just look at the hellfire expertise change


    Arms of Hadar magnitude increased to 50 ------ 40+25%= 50mag on live = no change
    Vampiric Embrace magnitude increased to 240----------- 200+25%= 250mag on live--- NERFED
    Blades of Vanquished Armies magnitude increased to 20 per blade------------ 15+25% = 20 on live = no change
    Hadars Grasp magnitude increased to 200 -------- 175+25% = 218.5mag on live = NERFED
    Fiery Bolt magnitude increased to 175 ----------- 125+25% = 156.25mag on live = BUFFED ( but what about split damage?)
    Killing Flame magnitude increased to 480 --------- 400-600+25% = 500-750mag on live = NERFED
    Hellfire Ring magnitude increased to 100, DoT increased to 200 ---- 75+180 +25% = 318.75mag on live = NERFED
    Soul Scorch magnitude increased to 9 per spark used and the Dot is increased to 1.5 magnitude per spark--- 6+25% = 7.5mag on live = buffed
    Accursed Souls magnitude increased to 900 ------- 750+25% = 937.5mag on live = NERFED
    Brood of Hadar tooltip changed to display damage done to the primary target and the magnitude was increased. 600 magnitude main target, 150 magnitude per brood attack. ---- 550 +(6x100) +25% = 1437.5mag on live = BUFFED
    Tyrannical Curse magnitude increased to 900 ------ 800 +25% = 1000mag on live = NERFED
    Gates of Hell magnitude increased to 750 ---- 550+25% = 625mag on live = BUFFED
    Flames of Phlegethos magnitude increased to 1000 ------ 750 +25% = 937.5 = BUFFED

    Everything encounter daily and at will not mentioned above is nerfed
    Soul puppet is getting a 50% NERF

    so all in all... this is looking like a massive kick in the face



    This is a more detailed description of the simple maths I did in my head when I first read the announcement.

    Dev's seem to think this a needed boost to a subpar damage dealer. When it looks like the opposite. What is missing here?

    I'll happily be proven wrong but all of the above equates to N E R F.

    Main: Angels Scar
    Guild: Ruathym Corsairs
  • tom#6998 tom Posts: 804Member Arc User
    > @noworries#8859 said:
    > While these changes weren't intended to be a big rebalancing of Warlock or adjust its relative damage compared to other classes, as we wanted the damage stacking changes to be live to see what effect it had on classes compared to each other, we can do an additional boost to some magnitudes after the weekend.
    >
    > None of these would be functionality changes due to the timeline. And these probably won't be as large as some players would like, but we do want to avoid going too far before we see how the other changes affect the class to class balances.

    I totaly understand that u want to wait and see what the changes to the dmg formular do, but pls act as soon as you can when these results are there.
  • xavior44xavior44 Posts: 91Member Arc User
    @noworries#8859 Why would you take Hellfire Expertise away.. This overall is a nerf to warlocks.. The warlock community is already dead and i fear your going to kill off whats left
  • mongol69mongol69 Posts: 256Member Arc User
    edited October 5
    At least in prior mods the stacking damage of murderous flames and stacking functional creeping death with a much much higher damage % and extremly fast cooldowns made up for the lack of burst potential by quickly stacking dot damage enough to pace other burst classes with consistent dot. Removing murderous flame, breaking the reduced creeping death feat has doomed the class to relying on si stacks.
  • ramesh84ramesh84 Posts: 110Member Arc User
    tom#6998 said:

    > @noworries#8859 said:

    > While these changes weren't intended to be a big rebalancing of Warlock or adjust its relative damage compared to other classes, as we wanted the damage stacking changes to be live to see what effect it had on classes compared to each other, we can do an additional boost to some magnitudes after the weekend.

    >

    > None of these would be functionality changes due to the timeline. And these probably won't be as large as some players would like, but we do want to avoid going too far before we see how the other changes affect the class to class balances.



    I totaly understand that u want to wait and see what the changes to the dmg formular do, but pls act as soon as you can when these results are there.

    Yeah, timing is quite crucial on a class waiting for tweaks since mod10 rework, any chance to base solutions on preview testing? Happy to provide datas running same dungeon with different classes both on live and preview. I am also been told that further balancing changes are about to happen based on TotMM performance, are hellbringers doing that good?
    Again we don't have the big picture of what's coming, as some other classes may be fixed/buffed/nerfed, but according to what we see now I get the points about these being invoking anounced changes as a nerf, overall and relatively to other classes.
    I've also did some quick preview tests, heres some untracked/unintended changes/nerfs:
    - no magnitude increase for at-wills, fix it please
    - hadar's grasp: magnitude is 35*5=175 (no curse) 35*7=245 (curse consume) on live, 50*4=200 vs 50*6=300 on preview, so the hellfire expertise loss is (less than) paired (22%) only with curse consuming. One less dots is also a nerf to ebonized chest procs.
    Making it short:
    - increase magnitude for 25% for generic path powers: fine, make sure it's actually a 25% for any of them please
    - increase magnitude for more than 25% for hellbringer powers: the 30-40% range looks fine, but I see only fiery bolt buffed accordingly, while killing flames had a 20% and other powers 0%, please fix it.

    - and fixes/QoL please:
    Soul Scorch should summon puppet or stack soul investiture on cast (this one as #1 QoL priority pls).
    Soul investiture stacks shouldn't be linked with puppet life, but to warlock's.
    Any entity (Soul puppet, hellfire ring dots, immolation spirit) should benefit from warlock's buff, that skews the balance at different gear/content level.
  • rev#7881 rev Posts: 119Member Arc User
    edited October 5
    ...
  • andorrabellandorrabell Posts: 436Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User

    My question is this...what was the reason to take Hellfire Expertise 25% away? Was the thought process that a Hellbringer would then become too powerful with the magnitude increased with other powers? Considering Hellbringers already have like a 30% damage DPS deficit compared to their other DPS classes, I am concerned. Math wise, as others have written, it nerfs a lot of powers significantly, but more importantly, seems to force us Hellbringers to switch to Soulweaver and I will say this...stop forcing people into loadouts they don't want! So you want to be a DPS cleric? live your life!!! Why do I need to be a soulweaver? Why is one of the components of a Warlocks (not just in this game but in DnD lore really) being taken away?

    And if you are endgame this already happened to you in TOMM. We we will what this brings, but there is no reason I can see to do this to us. We need serious help, quick, now we have a fix coming, for OTHER broken dps classes but probably not us.

    And yes, I made my cleric dps since I have to heal on my sw. :(

  • schietindebuxschietindebux Posts: 4,290Member Arc User
    edited October 5
    @tempus64
    thy for your testings, it displays pretty much exactly what I expected. A class at the bottom, getting nerfed on top.
    I take it with humor spiced with some sarcasm and a cherry on top, yummy :)
    If only there were improvements in gameplay and synergies to make the class some fun again.
  • foxxy#4211 foxxy Posts: 511Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User

    Magnitudes on LIVE vs Preview
    ………………………………………………………………………………………………….................................................... Total gain/loss
    LIVE...………………………………………………………………………………... Preview

    At wills: ……………………………………………………............…………. At Wills:

    Eldritch Blast: 25-50magnitude …………………………….. Eldritch Blast: 20-40magnitude ..................25% loss
    Dark Spiral Aura 87.5-262.5magnitude...……………………….. Dark Spiral Aura: 70-210 magnitude............... 25% loss
    Hellish rebuke: 37.5 magnitude .........................................Hellish rebuke: 30 magnitude ....................... 25% loss
    Hand of Blight: 31.25 melee/43.75 ranged magnitude...............Hand of Blight: 25 melee 35 ranged ...............25% loss

    Encounters: ………………………………………………………….........…...Encounters:

    Soul Scorch: 135+135dot (18 sparks) 270 magnitude ……….. Soul Scorch: 162+162dot(18 sparks) 324magnitude 20% gain

    Killing flames: 500-750 magnitude...……………………... Killing flames: 480-720 magnitude............. 4-5% loss
    Vampiric Embrace 250 magnitude ……………………………… Vampiric Embrace: 240 magnitude ................ 4-5% loss
    Dread Theft: 343.75 magnitude...………………………….. Dread theft : 275 magnitude................... 25% loss
    Hadar's Grasp: 218.75 magnitude...…………………………. Hadars Grasp: 200 magnitude ......................8-9% loss
    Curse Bite: 187.5 magnitude.......................................Curse Bite: 180 magnitude ................... 4-5% loss
    Fiery Bolt 156.25 magnitude......................................Fiery bolt 175 magnitude ................. 9% gain(hooray...)
    Infernal Spheres: 37.5 magnitude ……………………………….. Infernal Spheres: 30 magnitude ...................... 25% loss
    Arms of Hadar: 50 magnitude...……………………………….. Arms of Hadar 50 magnitude ...................... 0% loss/gain
    Blades of VA: 18.75 magnitude ……………………………... Blades of VA: 20 magnitude ...................... 6-7% gain(hooray....)
    Hellfire ring: 93.75 +225dot (318.75)Magnitude...…….. Hellfire ring 100+200dot magnitude.............. 6-7% loss

    Dailies: ……………………………………………………...............………... Dailies:

    Accursed Souls: 937.5 magnitude ……………………………………. Accursed Souls: 900 magnitude....................4-5% loss
    Brood of Hadar: 687.5+750(1437.5) magnitude...............................Brood of Hadar: 600+900( 1500)magnitude........4-5% gain(hooray)
    Tyrannical Curse: 1000 magnitude ………………………………………….. Tyrannical Curse: 900 magnitude.................... 9-10% loss
    Gates of Hell: 625 magnitude......................................................Gates of Hell: 750 magnitude........................... 15% gain
    Flames of Phleg: 937.5 magnitude...……………………………………... Flames of Phleg: 1000 magnitude ...................... 6-7% gain

    Other stuff

    Soul Puppet: 45 magnitude +0-100% buff .................................Soul Puppet: 45magnitude +0-50% buff.......... 0-50% loss
    Soul Desecration: see above above +10%............................................Soul Desecration: see above above +10% ............50% loss
    Risky investment: 5% per stack of SI to encounters.......................................Risky investment: 4% per stack of SI to encounters .............5% loss


    Parting blasphemy. I do not actually spec this but I imagine this is also getting buffed by Hellfire expertise 25% so on preview this will be another 25% loss. would appreciate if someone could gimme a heads up.

    So to conclude..... we getting nerfed hard. and this doesn't even take into account the loss we get from Buffs being changed to Additive


    Issues still present since Mod 16 preview:

    Certain bosses don't let us generate soul sparks
    Creeping Death doesn't work, and even if it did work as stated in the tool tip, the dot would be overwritten almost instantly
    Tyrannical Curse's split damage doesn't scale with armour penetration or accuracy and currently does 25% expected damage. that's a measly 3.75% damage instead of the stated 15%
    Curse bite is so slow it still loses a charge even if the target is already dead and cursebite doesn't even hit it. This also doesn't get any CD reduction from:
    Soul spark Recovery, Wrathful souls, Encounters Reprieve, Artificers Persuasion , Armoured Griffon Equip Power

    Neither does Blade of VA or Dreadtheft during the 6seconds active time.
    What is the point if having cooldown reduction the CORNERSTONE of this tree with both level 80 feats being CD reduction only if it doesn't even effect all our encounters.

    SOUL PUPPET IS NOT A VIABLE ALTERNATIVE TO WEAK AT WILL POWERS, its damage does not gain Combat Advantage, its Crit severity is limited to 50%, we have no control over it, its slow and AI is clunky. subject to Crowd control and being killed. In short it doesn't scale with stats the same way abilities do and is an unreliable source of DPS.
    I would even prefer you deleted the whole mechanic and increase all At will by 45 magnitude....than how things are even tho I kinda like the soul puppet in general. Its DPS should be a BONUS, not as a substitution for weak at will damage

    @noworries#8859
    These changes are affecting warIock, this shouId be checked!
  • andorrabellandorrabell Posts: 436Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User

    Magnitudes on LIVE vs Preview
    ………………………………………………………………………………………………….................................................... Total gain/loss
    LIVE...………………………………………………………………………………... Preview

    At wills: ……………………………………………………............…………. At Wills:

    Eldritch Blast: 25-50magnitude …………………………….. Eldritch Blast: 20-40magnitude ..................25% loss
    Dark Spiral Aura 87.5-262.5magnitude...……………………….. Dark Spiral Aura: 70-210 magnitude............... 25% loss
    Hellish rebuke: 37.5 magnitude .........................................Hellish rebuke: 30 magnitude ....................... 25% loss
    Hand of Blight: 31.25 melee/43.75 ranged magnitude...............Hand of Blight: 25 melee 35 ranged ...............25% loss

    Encounters: ………………………………………………………….........…...Encounters:

    Soul Scorch: 135+135dot (18 sparks) 270 magnitude ……….. Soul Scorch: 162+162dot(18 sparks) 324magnitude 20% gain

    Killing flames: 500-750 magnitude...……………………... Killing flames: 480-720 magnitude............. 4-5% loss
    Vampiric Embrace 250 magnitude ……………………………… Vampiric Embrace: 240 magnitude ................ 4-5% loss
    Dread Theft: 343.75 magnitude...………………………….. Dread theft : 275 magnitude................... 25% loss
    Hadar's Grasp: 218.75 magnitude...…………………………. Hadars Grasp: 200 magnitude ......................8-9% loss
    Curse Bite: 187.5 magnitude.......................................Curse Bite: 180 magnitude ................... 4-5% loss
    Fiery Bolt 156.25 magnitude......................................Fiery bolt 175 magnitude ................. 9% gain(hooray...)
    Infernal Spheres: 37.5 magnitude ……………………………….. Infernal Spheres: 30 magnitude ...................... 25% loss
    Arms of Hadar: 50 magnitude...……………………………….. Arms of Hadar 50 magnitude ...................... 0% loss/gain
    Blades of VA: 18.75 magnitude ……………………………... Blades of VA: 20 magnitude ...................... 6-7% gain(hooray....)
    Hellfire ring: 93.75 +225dot (318.75)Magnitude...…….. Hellfire ring 100+200dot magnitude.............. 6-7% loss

    Dailies: ……………………………………………………...............………... Dailies:

    Accursed Souls: 937.5 magnitude ……………………………………. Accursed Souls: 900 magnitude....................4-5% loss
    Brood of Hadar: 687.5+750(1437.5) magnitude...............................Brood of Hadar: 600+900( 1500)magnitude........4-5% gain(hooray)
    Tyrannical Curse: 1000 magnitude ………………………………………….. Tyrannical Curse: 900 magnitude.................... 9-10% loss
    Gates of Hell: 625 magnitude......................................................Gates of Hell: 750 magnitude........................... 15% gain
    Flames of Phleg: 937.5 magnitude...……………………………………... Flames of Phleg: 1000 magnitude ...................... 6-7% gain

    Other stuff

    Soul Puppet: 45 magnitude +0-100% buff .................................Soul Puppet: 45magnitude +0-50% buff.......... 0-50% loss
    Soul Desecration: see above above +10%............................................Soul Desecration: see above above +10% ............50% loss
    Risky investment: 5% per stack of SI to encounters.......................................Risky investment: 4% per stack of SI to encounters .............5% loss


    Parting blasphemy. I do not actually spec this but I imagine this is also getting buffed by Hellfire expertise 25% so on preview this will be another 25% loss. would appreciate if someone could gimme a heads up.

    So to conclude..... we getting nerfed hard. and this doesn't even take into account the loss we get from Buffs being changed to Additive


    Issues still present since Mod 16 preview:

    Certain bosses don't let us generate soul sparks
    Creeping Death doesn't work, and even if it did work as stated in the tool tip, the dot would be overwritten almost instantly
    Tyrannical Curse's split damage doesn't scale with armour penetration or accuracy and currently does 25% expected damage. that's a measly 3.75% damage instead of the stated 15%
    Curse bite is so slow it still loses a charge even if the target is already dead and cursebite doesn't even hit it. This also doesn't get any CD reduction from:
    Soul spark Recovery, Wrathful souls, Encounters Reprieve, Artificers Persuasion , Armoured Griffon Equip Power

    Neither does Blade of VA or Dreadtheft during the 6seconds active time.
    What is the point if having cooldown reduction the CORNERSTONE of this tree with both level 80 feats being CD reduction only if it doesn't even effect all our encounters.

    SOUL PUPPET IS NOT A VIABLE ALTERNATIVE TO WEAK AT WILL POWERS, its damage does not gain Combat Advantage, its Crit severity is limited to 50%, we have no control over it, its slow and AI is clunky. subject to Crowd control and being killed. In short it doesn't scale with stats the same way abilities do and is an unreliable source of DPS.
    I would even prefer you deleted the whole mechanic and increase all At will by 45 magnitude....than how things are even tho I kinda like the soul puppet in general. Its DPS should be a BONUS, not as a substitution for weak at will damage

    Thank you for *your* work Tempus.
    RIP SW DPS.
    This is kinda poster child for "slapintheface"
  • polaris1986polaris1986 Posts: 307Member Arc User

    masteroga said:

    Removing a 25% damage boost why?

    Because of the changes to damage buffs discussed in the other thread.

    If an encounter power is 200 magnitude, and the warlock has a 25% damage increase passively, and then on top of that the player has another 25% damage boost from other sources, the final damage is 300.

    If instead the encounter power is 250 base, instead of the warlock having a 25% damage increase, and the player still has 25% damage boost from other sources. The final damage is now 312.5.

    but Warlock still not in line with even DPS Cleric and Paladin who have ~1500 dmg on Daily and ~400 dmg on skills.

    With full starks Warlock can use only the One SoulScorch, without loosing buff. What this spell for? Just back a Warlock's curse, please.

    ------------------

    Pillar of Power still do 20 dmg healing

    Storm is still do 200/100 on a ground (must be more useable)

    Hellfire Ring - needs a click for activation, must be activate directly under your legs)
    DC/SW ~15
    new mount A-a-a-r-r-h-h-H !!


  • rikitakirikitaki Posts: 196Member Arc User



    Dev's seem to think this a needed boost to a subpar damage dealer. When it looks like the opposite. What is missing here?

    You are wrong. They clearly stated that this is by no means a buff to an under-performing class. This is turning multiplicative bonuses to additive. (and poorly implemented, by the way)
    If you want a buff to under-performing class, you still need to wait a little - it is not acknowledged as a problem yet.
  • sobi#1980 sobi Posts: 260Member Arc User
    edited October 5
    I think it'll be faster to convince the dev's by comparing the Hellbringer 1min dps rotation on preview vs on live, using ACT. Show them the difference in numbers and i think it'll be more persuasive.
  • snuff#8759 snuff Posts: 12Member Arc User
    That changes... u try rebalance one class. What about others? What with Hunter path on ranger? Still useless.
  • vorphiedvorphied Posts: 1,780Member Arc User
    I don't really understand the excessively conservative approach to class balance here. We're a few months past LoMM and well into ToMM, and the issues with the class (both in player-friendliness and in high-end performance) ought to be rather clear by now.
    Sacrilege - Warlock
    Contagion - Cleric
    Testament - Wizard
    Pestilence - Ranger
    Dominion - Paladin

    NIGHTSWATCH
    The Forgotten Company Alliance
  • giz#2086 giz Posts: 140Member Arc User
    edited October 6

    That changes... u try rebalance one class. What about others? What with Hunter path on ranger? Still useless.

    At least your class has a DPS path that works, don't tell me that thing about "well, but warlock healer is viable for end game" because i play DPS, And Hellbringer Warlock is one of the WORST DPS classes and it's getting nerfed to oblivion. If you have something to claim about YOUR class, please post a thread about it. Our best Single Target path (Soulbinder) was converted into a healing path. You want it for your class too? Not only they made us a non pure DPS class, they even want to destroy our only path for DPS.
  • mongol69mongol69 Posts: 256Member Arc User
    edited October 6
    Well, now it makes sense why they nerfed the warlock into the ground...maybey they are balancing now around the broken dtd with 105% damage instead of 5%. That would explain why magnitudes mediocre, and 25% hellfire expertise removed, si damage reduced 5%.

    But warlocks still underperform other dps classes to boot...with a 105% damage buff. Guess the 110% broken pillar of power buff instead of 10% explains why they removed kf in soulweaver.

    Input garbage=output garbage..gg. lots of decimal points, everywhere put in the wrong place, smh. I guess that's one way to try and make it look balanced XD
    Post edited by mongol69 on
  • zentinyzentiny Posts: 1Member Arc User
    @noworries#8859
    2 questions.

    1. Why are you totally ignoring the existence of At-Wills in your list of changes? They need to be increased too.

    2. Curse Bite is central to many hellbringer rotations. Why is it not in your list of changes? It needs to be increased too.

    The overall impression you are giving to the community is that the devs don't have a clue in the closet what they are doing with hellbringer warlocks. Just throw some numbers out there and see if we can fool them into thinking it isn't a nerf.
  • shammuramatshammuramat Posts: 1Member Arc User
    Thanks for changes on Soulweaver, I like your work.

    Bad times are coming for the Hellbringer. Pls don't touch Hellfire Expertise and don't nerf Risky Investment, we need one upgrade to that feat! It's really hard to maintain and stack soul investiture in some situations. I agree with @martins#2911, we need something to stack soul investiture fastly.
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