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Warlock Adjustments

noworries#8859 noworries Posts: 502 Member, Cryptic Developer Cryptic Developer
When preview is updated with the queue and damage buff adjustments, there will also be adjustments to the Warlock class.


Hellbringer
  • Dark Prayers now summons a soul puppet when an enemy cursed by you dies.
  • Soul Investiture is now a 10% damage increase for the Soul Puppet per stack.
  • Risky Investment now grants a 4% bonus to damage for each stack of Soul Investiture.
  • Killing Flames and Dreadtheft have been moved into the Hellbringer paragon encounter selection.
  • Arms of Hadar and Blades of Vanquished Armies moved into the Warlock general encounters.
  • Hellfire Expertise no longer increases Fire and Necrotic Damage.
  • Soul Sparks now increase Hellbringer damage by 0.2% per spark


  • Arms of Hadar magnitude increased to 50
  • Vampiric Embrace magnitude increased to 240
  • Blades of Vanquished Armies magnitude increased to 20 per blade
  • Hadars Grasp magnitude increased to 200
  • Fiery Bolt magnitude increased to 175
  • Killing Flame magnitude increased to 480
  • Hellfire Ring magnitude increased to 100, DoT increased to 200
  • Soul Scorch magnitude increased to 9 per spark used and the Dot is increased to 1.5 magnitude per spark
  • Accursed Souls magnitude increased to 900
  • Brood of Hadar tooltip changed to display damage done to the primary target and the magnitude was increased. 600 magnitude main target, 150 magnitude per brood attack.
  • Tyrannical Curse magnitude increased to 900
  • Gates of Hell magnitude increased to 750
  • Flames of Phlegethos magnitude increased to 1000



Soulweaver
  • Lifebind reduced to taking 10% of damage dealt to allies. Switched from an increase in Defense to an increase in Damage Reduction
  • Feat Transfusion Tactics changed to Mending Mastery and increases outgoing healing by 5%
  • Prince of Hell is now 5000 Armor Penetration
  • Dark Revelry now increases teammates Awareness and Critical Avoidance by 5000
  • Soul Sparks should no longer deplete when in a downed state


  • Wraith's Shadow Healing Magnitude increased to 100
Post edited by noworries#8859 on
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Comments

  • foxxy#4211 foxxy Posts: 509Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    edited October 4
    Soul Reconstruction is already 200.
    Wraith's Shadow is an awful power; damage should be increased too.
    Dark Revelry should be a reduction to "damage taken" rather than a rating.
    Prince of Hell for a healer? maybe something like an increase to outgoing heal rather than armpen?.
    Lifebind this feat still remains as a suicidal feat, it has to be reworked.
    Arms of Hadar and Blades of Vanquished Armies are just lame! useless powers.
    Soul Sparks now increase Hellbringer damage by 0.2% per spark = 6% damage with x30 sparks is nothing.
    Risky Investment = why nerfed?
    Hellfire Expertise = I don't understand this, it's basically nerfing warlocks powers as everything he does is fire and necrotic??



  • tomatotgotchitomatotgotchi Posts: 10Member Arc User
    > @noworries#8859 said:

    > * Hellfire Expertise no longer increases Fire and Necrotic Damage.

    Can we please get an explanation as to why Hellfire expertise is being nerfed? You are in essence increasing the magnitude of Fire based powers and then taking away the most important aspect of our Paragon skill which increases fire and necrotic damage by 25%. By increasing one and removing the other you are significantly impacting the effect of a magnitude increase. It seems counterproductive.
  • ramesh84ramesh84 Posts: 110Member Arc User
    edited October 4

    Blades of Vanquished Armies are just lame! useless powers.

    not really..


    Risky Investment = why nerfed?
    Hellfire Expertise = I don't understand this, it's basically nerfing warlocks powers as everything he does is fire and necrotic??

    maybe both become overall dmg increase? Should be a nice buff then :)
    Otherwise removing buff from hellfire expertise incorporating changes to magnitudes reduces the impact of damage formula changes

    Anyway not expecting warlock as only class to be changed and looking forward to test stuff, tho I still see lack of ways to stack Soul investiture on single target and same SI stacks being so unreliable due to we can't control puppet life


    Prince of Hell is now 5000 Armor Penetration
    Why not critical at this point?


    Soul Sparks should no longer deplete when in a downed state
    best fix ty
    Post edited by ramesh84 on
  • limdul74limdul74 Posts: 1Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User

    Soul Reconstruction is already 200.
    Wraith's Shadow is an awful power; damage should be increased too.
    Dark Revelry should be a reduction to "damage taken" rather than a rating. => disagree, if that you counter the lifebind mechanics
    Prince of Hell for a healer? maybe something like an increase to outgoing heal rather than armpen?. => agree
    Lifebind this feat still remains as a suicidal feat, it has to be reworked. => disagree, i like this mechanick but you have to improve hp, i think that is a good adjustment
    Arms of Hadar and Blades of Vanquished Armies are just lame! useless powers. => it's good to have arm of hadar in general way it let you the possibility to have a control spell in heal role blades are only good in dps role to stack the souls very quickly so why move it and remove the killing flame from general (how new warlock will level up with mechanics of soul puppet until lvl 30 ?)
    Soul Sparks now increase Hellbringer damage by 0.2% per spark = 6% damage with x30 sparks is nothing.
    Risky Investment = why nerfed? => agree why nerf when we know how its difficult to reach 5stack and keep it in mono target
    Hellfire Expertise = I don't understand this, it's basically nerfing warlocks powers as everything he does is fire and necrotic?? => i fear that will be a big nerf but as the damage calculation change too perhaps it's just to prevent an unbalanced situation

    One remark for dps, the difficulty in a boss fight is to stack souls investiture and the mechanics to generate soul puppets is very restraint, we have 3 options (+1 new):
    - Killing flame but we have to kill a enemy so in a boss like halaster, it's impossible.
    - Hadar graps about 15s of calldown.
    - accursed souls ... it's a daily so we sacrifice tyrannical curse (+20% dmg/20s and 900 magnitude) to have a 900 magnitude and +4% dmg...
    - Dark prayers condition is kill an ennemies with a curse : impossible on a boss but powerfull in a multitarget mode.

    I think that is needed to have an additional encounter spell that generate a soul puppet when we remove a curse perhaps remove the temporary hp mechanics on vampiric embrace to add this (because these temporary hp supress shields so impossible to use it with an op heal)

    One remark for heal, what is the goal to have 1% of our dmg convert in heal, what is the goal of the soul puppet?
    In heal, the curse is interesting to reduce the damage of opponent but to apply it it's complicated without the 'eating curse" passive (sorry i lost the name in english) in heal
    There is no heal spell with mechanics of soul puppet, that's why the soul puppet is only for heal...

    so why not rework this to have another mechanics with heal option ?
    can we imagine that the soul puppet could assist on heal and not be a just a puppet for dps. The idea of lifebind is good.
    Why not use the puppet to take a part of these damage too? it will justify the sacrifice of an healing spell to summon it if you don't want to change that.

    sorry for my english.
  • edenfay#2737 edenfay Posts: 16Member Arc User
    edited October 4


    Lifebind this feat still remains as a suicidal feat, it has to be reworked.

    This is a common misconception about Lifebind. In actual practice Lifebind is right now a very strong feat on an endgame soulweaver and not remotely suicidal, unless your entire team is lacking in any tactical awareness. I runn LoMM nightly (as one of the main healers in our alliance) and can quite comfortably maintain Lifebind through the entire dungeon, including the Bore Worm bombardment phase and Trobriand's storm---the latter attack requires good DPS and some DR stacking to survive with Life Bind on, but is quite doable. And the rewards are considerable: effective 25% DR for your entire team, with the extra damage on ourselves easily handed with our superior incoming healing due to From The Brink. I do also run a Shadowclad 12, which is also excellent for making this strategy viable.

    Meanwhile the alternative feat provides nothing but a small DOT that is almost always going to be wasted overheal.

    By far the best fix here is the retention of sparks after death. I am very sorry to lose Killing Flames, however: this ability is one of the few ways that Soulweavers have to apply curse via attack (the other option is Harrowstorm, which costs sparks.) @noworries#8859 was this feature of Killing Flames considered when moving the ability? Have you considered providing Soulweavers with another way to apply curse outside of Harrowstorm (which is spark intensive) and All Consuming Curse?

    edit: although maybe Arms of Hadar applies curse - not playing Hellbringer, I've honestly forgotten!
  • ramesh84ramesh84 Posts: 110Member Arc User


    Lifebind this feat still remains as a suicidal feat, it has to be reworked.

    This is a common misconception about Lifebind. In actual practice Lifebind is right now a very strong feat on an endgame soulweaver and not remotely suicidal, unless your entire team is lacking in any tactical awareness. I runn LoMM nightly (as one of the main healers in our alliance) and can quite comfortably maintain Lifebind through the entire dungeon, including the Bore Worm bombardment phase and Trobriand's storm---the latter attack requires good DPS and some DR stacking to survive with Life Bind on, but is quite doable. And the rewards are considerable: effective 25% DR for your entire team, with the extra damage on ourselves easily handed with our superior incoming healing due to From The Brink. I do also run a Shadowclad 12, which is also excellent for making this strategy viable.

    Meanwhile the alternative feat provides nothing but a small DOT that is almost always going to be wasted overheal.

    By far the best fix here is the retention of sparks after death. I am very sorry to lose Killing Flames, however: this ability is one of the few ways that Soulweavers have to apply curse via attack (the other option is Harrowstorm, which costs sparks.) @noworries#8859 was this feature of Killing Flames considered when moving the ability? Have you considered providing Soulweavers with another way to apply curse outside of Harrowstorm (which is spark intensive) and All Consuming Curse?

    edit: although maybe Arms of Hadar applies curse - not playing Hellbringer, I've honestly forgotten!
    Arms of Hadar applies curse yep, damage is pitiful but prone effect in a support PoV makes sense while fighting mobs. Also moving blades to general path allows to have a spark generator different than tab/atwills: that's really nice on hard fights. As HF expertise buff has been incorporated to magnitude skills, makes sence move KF, our best ST damage source, to dps path. So 3 good design choices in a shot, gj!
  • edenfay#2737 edenfay Posts: 16Member Arc User
    ramesh84 said:


    Arms of Hadar applies curse yep, damage is pitiful but prone effect in a support PoV makes sense while fighting mobs. Also moving blades to general path allows to have a spark generator different than tab/atwills: that's really nice on hard fights. As HF expertise buff has been incorporated to magnitude skills, makes sence move KF, our best ST damage source, to dps path. So 3 good design choices in a shot, gj!

    Oh excellent. Yes, I agree: these are very good design decisions. I am very happy to lose Dreadtheft for Blades, too, and Blades promises to synergise well with Harrowstorm for more aggressive between-bosses play.

    And though I praised Lifebind in my previous post, this tweaked version sounds better overall; the extra DR and reduced bite should allow undergeared Soulweavers to sustain running it as well. (People should keep in mind that as Lifebind damage is subject to DR, this will actually be less than 10% damage taken in practice.)
  • ramesh84ramesh84 Posts: 110Member Arc User
    > @edenfay#2737 said:
    > (Quote)
    > Oh excellent. Yes, I agree: these are very good design decisions. I am very happy to lose Dreadtheft for Blades, too, and Blades promises to synergise well with Harrowstorm for more aggressive between-bosses play.
    >
    > And though I praised Lifebind in my previous post, this tweaked version sounds better overall; the extra DR and reduced bite should allow undergeared Soulweavers to sustain running it as well. (People should keep in mind that as Lifebind damage is subject to DR, this will actually be less than 10% damage taken in practice.)

    dang just realized sparks on crit is from hellfire expertise so not for soulweaver :astonished:
  • gonzakotwigonzakotwi Posts: 195Member Arc User



    We don't want to overshoot those adjustments as it could mean having to bring magnitudes back down in the future, which is always frustrating to players. So the increments are smaller to watch where that brings Warlocks to in relation to other classes at which point we can do additional buffs.

    So it isn't frustrating that you left us with a underpefroming class for 7 months and no acknowledge of it even with all the feedback given? We know that you will leave the class underperforming (from your patch notes, even more than before). You made many of the good warlocks quit the game or switch to another class. Just give us a class respec or a unbind option if you want to keep fooling around with destroying the class
  • edenfay#2737 edenfay Posts: 16Member Arc User
    ramesh84 said:


    dang just realized sparks on crit is from hellfire expertise so not for soulweaver :astonished:

    Yep. But the nice thing about Blades, imho, is that it adds passive damage that benefits greatly from widespread cursing; for the majority of the content where a soulweaver's main heal loadout would be overhealing (that is, anywhere outside REQ and some of RAQ), helping teams clear trash en route to the bosses is a more useful way to spec. Harrow + Blades + Lostmauth will accomplish this. Dreadtheft, of course, was useful nowhere.

    BUT: losing Killing Flames is definitely going to make soulweavers entirely helpless at adding damage to boss fights, and will hurt a *lot* on mimic phases. That's the one I'll miss.
  • mongol69mongol69 Posts: 256Member Arc User
    edited October 5
    So loosing hellfire expertise...minimal magnitude changes and increased si stacks on adds isn't really helpfull.

    We end up looking like more damage potential on adds and almost no improvement on single target but coupled with additive buff change it is an overall damage reduction.

    Really? That's the balance, nerfing warlocks further? Wow, not impressed, looks like warlocks will now be even closer to pally damage in group content.

    Still lacking burst dmg with garbage si stacks and time to build stacks, still paired with puppet so its death equals si stack loss.
  • andorrabellandorrabell Posts: 436Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User

    masteroga said:

    Removing a 25% damage boost why?

    Because of the changes to damage buffs discussed in the other thread.

    If an encounter power is 200 magnitude, and the warlock has a 25% damage increase passively, and then on top of that the player has another 25% damage boost from other sources, the final damage is 300.

    If instead the encounter power is 250 base, instead of the warlock having a 25% damage increase, and the player still has 25% damage boost from other sources. The final damage is now 312.5.


    The main aspect of those changes is to offset the damage buff adjustments. Some of the magnitudes were increased a bit extra and there was an increase in both the damage boost from soul sparks and to the effectiveness of soul scorch to help overall boost the Warlock's capabilities above where they currently are.

    We don't want to overshoot those adjustments as it could mean having to bring magnitudes back down in the future, which is always frustrating to players. So the increments are smaller to watch where that brings Warlocks to in relation to other classes at which point we can do additional buffs.
    Well I think this will certainly not overshoot anything.
    Doubt this will make any difference in the lives of DPS sw, but thanks for a fix to lifebind I guess.
  • mongol69mongol69 Posts: 256Member Arc User
    So what's the logic with devs, warlocks do 60% damage of wizards in tomm now so "Yeah, nah let's make it less than 50%" really?
  • tempus86#1158 tempus86 Posts: 62Member Arc User
    Hellbringer
    Dark Prayers now summons a soul puppet when an enemy cursed by you dies. - borderline worthless

    Soul Investiture is now a 10% damage increase for the Soul Puppet per stack. - 50% NERF. probably even more since its actually adding about 70% per stack currently on live

    Risky Investment now grants a 4% bonus to damage for each stack of Soul Investiture. - is this 4% encounter damage or 4% TOTAL DAMAGE and is it subject to the new "BUFF CHANGES" ????

    Killing Flames and Dreadtheft have been moved into the Hellbringer paragon encounter selection.
    Arms of Hadar and Blades of Vanquished Armies moved into the Warlock general encounters. ---- don't really see the point in this, its not like healers are rocking the dps charts but ok

    Hellfire Expertise no longer increases Fire and Necrotic Damage. -- increase all base magnitudes by 25% then or its a big nerf

    Soul Sparks now increase Hellbringer damage by 0.2% per spark 1.5% buff on the most unstable buff there is, sparks are spent pretty much as soon as you reach 30. wont even counter the the loss of damage from the new buff changes
  • gonzakotwigonzakotwi Posts: 195Member Arc User

    masteroga said:

    Removing a 25% damage boost why?

    Because of the changes to damage buffs discussed in the other thread.

    If an encounter power is 200 magnitude, and the warlock has a 25% damage increase passively, and then on top of that the player has another 25% damage boost from other sources, the final damage is 300.

    If instead the encounter power is 250 base, instead of the warlock having a 25% damage increase, and the player still has 25% damage boost from other sources. The final damage is now 312.5.


    The main aspect of those changes is to offset the damage buff adjustments. Some of the magnitudes were increased a bit extra and there was an increase in both the damage boost from soul sparks and to the effectiveness of soul scorch to help overall boost the Warlock's capabilities above where they currently are.

    We don't want to overshoot those adjustments as it could mean having to bring magnitudes back down in the future, which is always frustrating to players. So the increments are smaller to watch where that brings Warlocks to in relation to other classes at which point we can do additional buffs.
    There is a glaring problem with this already.
    Warlock buffs are currently multiplying, so we are gonna take a nerf there. which is to be expected with the change. but with removing the 25% buff to necrotic and fire damage, every warlock power is going to do 25% less base damage already. So even to get the exact same damage as we do currently, EVERY POWER needs to have its magnitude increased by 25% BY DEFAULT just to deal the same base damage as on live!

    so every power not mentioned in the above list is actually getting nerfed by 25% by default THIS IS A HUGE NERF when what we needed was a buff.
    Every at will is taking a 25% nerf, and already our at will are by far the weakest of every class, our best at will, hellish rebuke on live does 30 magnitude. every 0.7seconds. with buffs. we will assume full sparks - 4.5%. intellect at 6.5%, warlocks curse 10% double ebonised rings 3%, (1.03x1.03). and hellfire expertise buff 25%. and No pity no mercy, which removes the dot but increases initial hit by 25%.
    SO on live, ignoring power, Hellish rebuke with NPNM feature is..... 37.5 x (1.045 x 1.065 x 1.10 x 1.03 x 1.03 x 1.25)
    a 62% increase
    which is 60.879 magnitude, so lets be generous and round that up to 61magnitude every 0.7 seconds. or 87.1 mag/sec

    After these changes it will be 37.5 x ( 6+6.5+10+3+3/100)
    28.5% increase
    48.1875 magnitude or 69 magnitude/sec

    But lets ignore the buff changes and just look at the hellfire expertise change


    Arms of Hadar magnitude increased to 50 ------ 40+25%= 50mag on live = no change
    Vampiric Embrace magnitude increased to 240----------- 200+25%= 250mag on live--- NERFED
    Blades of Vanquished Armies magnitude increased to 20 per blade------------ 15+25% = 20 on live = no change
    Hadars Grasp magnitude increased to 200 -------- 175+25% = 218.5mag on live = NERFED
    Fiery Bolt magnitude increased to 175 ----------- 125+25% = 156.25mag on live = BUFFED ( but what about split damage?)
    Killing Flame magnitude increased to 480 --------- 400-600+25% = 500-750mag on live = NERFED
    Hellfire Ring magnitude increased to 100, DoT increased to 200 ---- 75+180 +25% = 318.75mag on live = NERFED
    Soul Scorch magnitude increased to 9 per spark used and the Dot is increased to 1.5 magnitude per spark--- 6+25% = 7.5mag on live = buffed
    Accursed Souls magnitude increased to 900 ------- 750+25% = 937.5mag on live = NERFED
    Brood of Hadar tooltip changed to display damage done to the primary target and the magnitude was increased. 600 magnitude main target, 150 magnitude per brood attack. ---- 550 +(6x100) +25% = 1437.5mag on live = BUFFED
    Tyrannical Curse magnitude increased to 900 ------ 800 +25% = 1000mag on live = NERFED
    Gates of Hell magnitude increased to 750 ---- 550+25% = 625mag on live = BUFFED
    Flames of Phlegethos magnitude increased to 1000 ------ 750 +25% = 937.5 = BUFFED

    Everything encounter daily and at will not mentioned above is nerfed
    Soul puppet is getting a 50% NERF

    so all in all... this is looking like a massive kick in the face





    Actually is more than that 25%, considering that buffs like soul sparks, ri, d2d, tc etc... will switch to additive. Overall its around 35% to be in the same place where we are now (which is already a bad place)
  • mongol69mongol69 Posts: 256Member Arc User
    edited October 5
    The class is now built around si stacking and kf, a one trick pony mechanic that never scaled properly, doesn't now, and inherently deficient compared to any burst class.

    Why they killed creeping death I will never understand, it wasn't a great mechanic for burst and didnt scale well either, but at least warlocks had a fighting chance in prior mods compared to si stacking. Even if creeping death worked, at 10% it's still mediocre.

    Now theres absolutly no chance of dps warlock being viable as a real dps. It's going to be a huge handicap against all dps classes once additive changes implemented.
  • rjc9000rjc9000 Posts: 2,091Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User

    This is no where near the 33% average increase to all classes that was stated in a previous post about the new damage formula change ( separating crit sev and CA). cant find the link/quote, but ill look for it

    The link below is the one you're looking for and the quote you're looking for is somewhere near the middle of the page.

    https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter/#/discussion/1250930/pc-bugged-self-buffs-on-the-asterdahl-classes/p2

  • tempus86#1158 tempus86 Posts: 62Member Arc User
    edited October 5
    thanks rjc9000, I think I deleted the post after trying to edit it, or I got moderated... dunno, its late
    not gonna type all that out again, but the crux of it was with the new changes killing flames, our main hitter will be doing 17% LESS damage for a none crit/CA attack, and only 17% MORE for a full CRIT+CA hit and 30 magnitude LESS than currently on live. this is not a 33% buff....
  • gonzakotwigonzakotwi Posts: 195Member Arc User
    Tested the changes and... congratulations cryptic developers, you made my warlock hit even less than before. Now it takes me twice the time to kill the same mobs, if I don´t crit then i don´t do any damage. If you put this on live then it will be the end at least for me.
  • noworries#8859 noworries Posts: 502 Member, Cryptic Developer Cryptic Developer
    While these changes weren't intended to be a big rebalancing of Warlock or adjust its relative damage compared to other classes, as we wanted the damage stacking changes to be live to see what effect it had on classes compared to each other, we can do an additional boost to some magnitudes after the weekend.

    None of these would be functionality changes due to the timeline. And these probably won't be as large as some players would like, but we do want to avoid going too far before we see how the other changes affect the class to class balances.
  • silverwolf#7884 silverwolf Posts: 165Member Arc User
    Appreciate that you're looking into solving the Warlock's issues.

    Best change that has been done is the fix to the Soul Spark depletion, seriously good news for the Warlock healer.

    The biggest problems that the Warlock faces is the lack of ability to stack AND maintain Soul Investiture. If we look at the new Trial, we have one enemy to face, this means that we have ONE power that will grant Soul Investiture and due to the cast time/cool-down will take the warlock 96 seconds to gain full stack IF the Soul Puppet or Warlock doesn't die and the boss is not target immune when the Warlock needs to cast Hadar's Grasp again to keep up the SI stacks.

    I know that you're trying to get a quick fix to boost the Warlock but without fixing the big issues you're not fixing the class.
    I'd suggest that Warlock's keep the passive self-buff and increase sources of Soul Investiture, over 1.5 minutes of combat to reach maximum potential (which is still much, much lower than the top DPS classes) is far too long.

    If you're not going for a proper fix and instead going for the band-aid solution the removal of the 25% passive buff but subsequent increase in magnitude has negated itself. Your argument was that we could gain the addition using Risky Investment, which we've explained takes far too long if we're ever able to max is out at all. Remember that you're also stating that we have to wait for a long time to be able to self-buff up to a magnitude that's still a lot lower than the other DPS classes BEFORE their self buffs.

    Return the passive 25% boost and either increase the amount of powers that give Soul Investiture or remove the mechanic completely and replace with something else; perhaps :

    Soul Punishment
    Upon refreshing the Soul Puppet, the Soul Puppet deals a punishing blow equal to magnitude 300 to enemies within a 10' Radius.

    While we're at it please fix the bugs that I've reported, especially the one about the Hellfire Ring DoT not actually being affected by our buffs.
  • frogwalloper#6494 frogwalloper Posts: 721Member Arc User
    I'm excited to see the goldilock's getting arms and blades.
    I hope the devs consider making fiery bolt a flat aoe damage instead of a percent.
  • joelmessedup#5710 joelmessedup Posts: 16Member Arc User
    My question is this...what was the reason to take Hellfire Expertise 25% away? Was the thought process that a Hellbringer would then become too powerful with the magnitude increased with other powers? Considering Hellbringers already have like a 30% damage DPS deficit compared to their other DPS classes, I am concerned. Math wise, as others have written, it nerfs a lot of powers significantly, but more importantly, seems to force us Hellbringers to switch to Soulweaver and I will say this...stop forcing people into loadouts they don't want! So you want to be a DPS cleric? live your life!!! Why do I need to be a soulweaver? Why is one of the components of a Warlocks (not just in this game but in DnD lore really) being taken away?
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