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Neverwinter is dying yet again.
< Removed for Terms of Service Violation >
< Community Members from the removed material state > that cryptic wants to push and pull people from group 1 and 3 to group 2, where the incentive to spend is there.
I agree with most parts in the video but i don't think the real issue with NW is pushing and the pulling. Every MMO has to make its previous gears obsolete so that players have something new to look forward to and NW is not an exception to it. However, what NW fails to do is that it puts a huge wall of grind before the players and once the players have achieved what they worked hard for, it's simply made obsolete in the next patch. This causes frustration and people prefer to opt out of a game which doesn't feel rewarding.
What exacerbates this is that there is no incentive to reach end game as the jump from group 2 to group 3 is outrageous and there is only TOMM to satisfy you. Yet again what cryptic failed was to balance the classes before they released TOMM and instead of being applicable to group 3, TOMM is applicable to 0.0001% of players now. I myself was in group 2 and jumped to group 3 and i can say that i am regretting my decision.
We understand it's a free to play game and it needs ways to earn and P2W is not a solution to this. Mod 16 is also not a solution to this and the game really messed up there.
What do you guys think is the main issue with the game right now? Do you think that group 2's are happy in this game?
< Community Members from the removed material state > that cryptic wants to push and pull people from group 1 and 3 to group 2, where the incentive to spend is there.
I agree with most parts in the video but i don't think the real issue with NW is pushing and the pulling. Every MMO has to make its previous gears obsolete so that players have something new to look forward to and NW is not an exception to it. However, what NW fails to do is that it puts a huge wall of grind before the players and once the players have achieved what they worked hard for, it's simply made obsolete in the next patch. This causes frustration and people prefer to opt out of a game which doesn't feel rewarding.
What exacerbates this is that there is no incentive to reach end game as the jump from group 2 to group 3 is outrageous and there is only TOMM to satisfy you. Yet again what cryptic failed was to balance the classes before they released TOMM and instead of being applicable to group 3, TOMM is applicable to 0.0001% of players now. I myself was in group 2 and jumped to group 3 and i can say that i am regretting my decision.
We understand it's a free to play game and it needs ways to earn and P2W is not a solution to this. Mod 16 is also not a solution to this and the game really messed up there.
What do you guys think is the main issue with the game right now? Do you think that group 2's are happy in this game?
Post edited by ambisinisterr on
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This discussion has been closed.
Comments
(Note I've only seen half of the video).
I disagree with his presentation of the problem, which is actually another symptom.
As I've mentioned on my last post on a similar thread, the real problem is the lack of NEW horizontal progression.
Them to devalue artifacts/gears/enchantments/mounts/companions/crafting etc... and force level cap increase to achieve it ( despite of what happened in Mod 6! ) is glaring symptom of lack variety of vertical progression.
I don't believe they've had any new system to upgrade the the last 3 1/2 to 4 years. I think the last one is the mount system which started with the mount overhaul a long time ago.
They are simply shuffling this small systems pool for vertical progression each mod.
And the problem with the last 2 mods is not really change per se, but the rate of change.
If you got punched once, you might stay. If you get punched a dozen times at the same time, you'll likely leave.
They forced an unnecessary level cap increase to reset the whole game.
So what he is describing is another symptom of the problem but not the real problem, which is the lack of a new system (horizontal expansion) to vertically upgrade.
Current Vertical Upgrade Systems:
Enchantments
Companions
Mounts
Insignia
Artifacts
Crafting
Armor
Weapon
Weapon enchantment
Armor enchantment
Artifact Set
Horizontal expansion:
+New system to upgrade
+New system to upgrade
+New system to upgrade
I know it's a tall order to ask for a new system, but that's the underlying problem with Neverwinter. People are leaving because they are tired of reupgrades ad nauseaum ad infinitum.
NW decision makers need to update/reacquiant themselves with the current MMO landscape, aka their competition. Old players aren't sticking around without any new system.
If Cryptic wanted my money, they should have worked on the content creation and stopped worrying about new and better gears. I actually did pay Cryptic money one time, but not on Neverwinter. It was on Star Trek, I paid cash money to learn how to use the Foundry. I purchased the extra character slots needed and extra Foundry story slots. You also needed to get 10K dilithium to open the Foundry editor on STO. Could you just imagine how much of my retirement check I would have been spent on the Neverwinter Foundry, if they sold assets in the zen store? Those days are gone, with any trust I once had for the company.
The way I see it, Neverwinter is bleeding out, and will continue to do so, until it ends up like Champions. There will be no real "death of the game", as new players will come in, spend a little money, and leave after a month or two and go play something else. Loyal whales are whales, they will grab up all the best equipment, beat the new module, and trot off to play something else. I still play Champions once in a while and I will continue to play here as long as the server is up and running. But I won't be spending any cash money on Cryptic games because there is no content here.
The game isn't about being best in slot, the game is about the journey to get there. There is nothing wrong with having your progression reset, it is just an extension of the journey. Don't get me wrong, the game has problems and there are definitely many, many things which can be improved, but I don't think taking away best in slot from people and giving them something new to aim for is necessarily one of them. They could also add alternative progression systems, which do not increase your power above where you currently are in the main systems but require you to advance in those systems in order to engage with them, but that is about it. The foundry would never, "save" Neverwinter, because it would never have the tools to create content that goal driven players are interested in completing. The fact of the matter is, I don't read any of the text on any quest in the game and I would not read any of the text in any foundry mission either. If I want to read something, I read a book and I say this as someone who really, really enjoys reading. The writing in games is mediocre at best, I play them for interactivity. Gameplay. I don't play them to read some mediocre novel written by someone who thinks they are a lot better at their storytelling than they really are.
Been here since beta when the GWF was HAMSTER , saw some horrible things . But this downscaling take the cake .
I am now in group 2 , back and forth in every new mod
As for the video, one thing jumps out at me. During Mod 15 there was a livestream with Foss and Julia. I watched it live. They were talking about Masterwork III weapons and explicitly said that they wanted them to be the best you could get for quite a while. Either they were totally ignorant of what the VERY NEXT MOD was bringing or they were lying through their teeth. I can interpret it no other way. You had better believe that it rubs me the wrong way. I'm *still* down hundreds of gold from what it cost to make those weapons.
As for the three groups, I'm in group 2, but I no longer bother trying to get to group 3. I haven't even seen TOMM and I have no desire to. I'm spending my time hanging around with friends in game and slowly working my many alts through the campaigns. That gives me plenty to do but I no longer care about whether I can run this or that dungeon. I'll go to one if I'm asked for help (like CoDG last night as a favor to a friend), but otherwise I've given up on group content. I'm not one of those players who feels a rush upon finishing a dungeon or getting a certain piece of gear. When the day comes that all of my alts finish all of their campaigns, I'll officially have nothing else to do.
Blood Magic (RELEASED) - NW-DUU2P7HCO
Children of the Fey (RELEASED) - NW-DKSSAPFPF
Buried Under Blacklake (WIP) - NW-DEDV2PAEP
The Redcap Rebels (WIP) - NW-DO23AFHFH
My Foundry playthrough channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/Ruskaga/featured
I do have to agree with you here. Guild wars 2 is a great example of mixing vertical and horizontal progressions. This game is entirely vertical, so the only progress really is to upgrading gears and grinding for new gear every module. That's why group 3 has nothing to do once they have upgraded everything and with the minuscule amount of content release, that cannot satisfy them for long enough.
Group 2 leave because those that refuse to pay a lot, spend a long time on grinding only to have their efforts reversed in the next mod. So in a nut shell, to introduce horizontal mechanics, the game really needs an overhaul of the class system. Craptic really has made it so much simple that a dps check is pure stat check. If you know your class well, all you do is stand and dps. The loss of macro is real in this scenario.
Blood Magic (RELEASED) - NW-DUU2P7HCO
Children of the Fey (RELEASED) - NW-DKSSAPFPF
Buried Under Blacklake (WIP) - NW-DEDV2PAEP
The Redcap Rebels (WIP) - NW-DO23AFHFH
My Foundry playthrough channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/Ruskaga/featured
Where is the core argument? Where are the suggested solutions? Can we at least provide proof of what we are saying as we make assertions or is evidence not required if we just state that our opinions are well researched because *well i've played for a long time* or *other people agree with me*?
And no, simply saying something vague along the lines of *game is dying because i don't agree with the way you release modules so change it or game will continue dying* is not an argument, it is an assertion and one that this video fails to substantiate in any meaningful way.
Short term progression bad because it invalidates old items? That is how every single MMO works. The long term goal is get to best in slot, the short term goal is get the best thing that was recently released on your way to getting to best in slot, this is not a bad thing and is in fact a great way to bring back the *Group 3* people to play the game again.
Cryptic wants to monetise the game as much as possible and that is bad because it guides their development decisions? Yes, obviously they want to make money. This is also not a bad thing and the recent development decisions OVERALL have been way more healthy for the game than in previous modules, to argue against this would be to deny reality. Perfect? Not even close. Better than their usual track record? Absolutely.
You can pay your way to the top and this is horrible? Yes, it is horrible or at least it would be if it were possible to do. The myth that this game is Pay 2 Win in any way, shape or form needs to die already - it was not true back in Mod 0 - 2 when people were screaming about PvP in the Tenebrous enchantment stacking days and it isn't true today when people are screaming about the first remotely challenging piece of PvE content ever released. Go ahead, pay a thousand dollars to get best in slot everything then go hang with people that actually know what they are doing, let's see how well you do.
I am sure that the video creator could have made solid arguments against the actual issues that the game faces ( a lot of them like the lack of horizontal progression and forcing a level cap increase + down scaling instead of addressing the lack of challenge / rewards in group content directly were already mentioned in this thread ) but instead they made yet another whine post in video form that was at least tolerable to listen to so i will give them that.
If the people that put in the time to make these sort of videos / forum threads would stop attempting to present their personal gripes as some end all be all truth about the apocalyptic end of the game that would be great.
What I very much object to are the changes that seem to necessitate players having to pay, to remain in content they already paid for and were doing well in – being expected to pay twice to be able to play and win in the same content.
The first time this happened to me was MOD 6. After a lengthy time of playing casually I was willing to invest in the game and finance my way to a quick fix that would allow me to play existing content more proficiently.
After my investment I was able to more easily navigate in Sharandar and the Dread Ring with my purple level 60 armor, a couple of upgraded enchantments and I even purchased a Guardian of Neverwinter player pack - Then came MOD 6...
Suddenly my level 60 purple armor and weapons weren't quite good enough, the enchantments that were previously tremendous augments to my power and deflection didn't seem to offer the same benefit they did before and opponents I used to be able to best or at least hold my own against in combat were suddenly "one shotting" me, defeating me with a single fatal strike. I was upset, I was disgusted and I seriously thought about just quitting Neverwinter but then I discovered Elemental Evil was dropping higher level gear that would replace (for free) the gear I purchased before it was made obsolete and that along with the health and augment potions that were still dropping gave me incentive to stick with the game and I even wound up spending more money, further investing in the game later on, albeit more frugally.
I was able to grind for better gear, weapons and "stuff" through the Elemental Evil campaign so I didn't think to badly of it when I occasionally spent some money for Zen during sales or to get something additional for my investment but as time progressed more and more of the items I purchased, worked for or spent hours for, were made obsolete much more quickly than they were previously. Then when the healing and augment potions stopped dropping it seemed I was encouraged to spend even more with the full knowledge that if I did whatever I was to spend it on would again be soon programmed to obsolescence I suspected to keep me in the group II category, even in content I used to be proficient in so as a result I wound up spending less since no financial investment seemed to allow me to progress - but merely maintain my current level of proficiency.
If I thought for a minute that any financial investment on my part would allow me to progress to new areas and maybe - maybe even allow me to more successfully play that content, I'd probably still be willing to spend real world currency but after years of experience I've learned.
Neverwinter has taught me most financial investments are futile. Not only are most players not able to progress and play new areas without a massive and sometimes reoccurring financial expenditure but sometimes we won't even be able to play areas we were previously able to play, without another financial expenditure.
Just my opinion.
The big question is how do you do that on a beast like a F2P mmorpg?
A lot of the answer to that depends on the spending profiles of the various player groups, and that is something the various mmorpg products do not share. I would love to see those data for NW
But of course it is not as simple as just tailoring the game for the highest-spending group.
* If you want the Zen spenders to be able to trade Zen for AD, you need the F2P people farming that AD
* You need the BiS crowd to show there is a challenging endgame you can develop your character towards
* You need the veterans to carry forward knowledge of tactics and how-to knowledge
* You need to in general be nice to everyone to give the game a good reputation
* Should you invest massively in new content, and hope that also will pull in enough new players to cover the expenses?
* And how much new content do you need to provide to keep the old players? Or are they worth keeping at all?
* How much pay-to-win can you make the game without people running away? What content can you take money for?
* Does it pay at all to make expansions, or is the optimal earnings strategy to just freeze the game and let it die slowly over time?
And so on.
On top of that, when mod 16 hit almost everything became less valuable because they were less meaningful in game. Boons for example got so nerfed there is little reason to run the "legacy campaigns" now. So why buy the campaign tokens?
How many mounts and/or companions are either broke are virtually worthless now? So why should people buy them? Not to mention the severe lack of new ones. I've spent a lot on mounts/companions in the past but there are no new ones for me to get now. Also keep in mind, in the old lock boxes you could get mounts and companions pretty regularly (not counting the legos. Now you can't so I'm buying fewer and fewer keys. Bottom line is, things are worth less (in the game) now and there is no motivation for me to buy them.
I think that yes, the suits want to have more monetization but devs, in there ever present effort to nerf anything we can buy into the ground and not fixing things that people may want to buy is having the reverse effect. I honestly wish some of the execs from the business side or Cryptic would read these forums because they would see that people aren't spending money partly because it's no longer worth it. Give us something worth buying and we will but it.
I have 20 toons and before mod 16 sunk a ton of cash into this came because there was value to me to buy things like mounts, companions and campaign tokens. Even keys. I've stopped almost all of that since MOD16 because you can get to level 70 in 1-2 days just playing casually then get your 9000 IL and go to UM and there's no need to buy anything because they can run through most of UM and not break a sweat as they gather more gear along the way.
The only incentive after UM is LOMM (on PS4 at the moment) but to what extent? The next mod is coming out and the gear there is better or good enough to run through that with having to deal with LOMM. Why so I can say I have 20 toons who can run LOMM? I think not. A few of them can and that's all I need and I just did that because there was nothing else to do (that was meaningful).
One can make the argument that perhaps they want to push out the older players and hope newer ones spend money but NW is a type of game that grows by word of mouth. Look at the PSN, Xbox and Stream charts, numbers are way down. New players are not showing up and many who were here aren't playing now. And the new players that are showing up (that I know) are hopeless frustrated about the grind and boring play and lack of story. I've had at least a 12 friends join over this year (due to me asking them to) and they have all left because they ALL (no exaggeration) said, it's just not fun.
Don't get me wrong NW does have stuff to offer but unless you are willing to spend money just to being able to run LOMM, TOMM there really isn't any reason to at this point.
hope they add it to REQ soon and raise requirements of REQ.
Lastly, horizontal progression is truly what this game requires. Group 3 for example is dying for it. Group 2 is tired of the daily grind that cryptic time gated with recent AD cap. So instead of being fun, it feels like a chore.
My Suggestion (these suggestions take into account that cryptic has limited resources):
1) Give each class a niche. This will make them better for certain dungeons over other classes but balance them in dps/healing/tanking.
2) Have the option for increased difficulty for lower level dungeons especially but with unique rewards. The RNG needs to be there in this case otherwise players won't have the incentive to play after they get their rewards.
3) Hold competitions such as whoever can finish a certain dungeon fastest gets a weekly reward.
4) Hold some kind of competitions throughout the various maps that are never used to reward players. Make it so that group 2 and 3 are equal and skill is what determines the winner. Awards like C-ward would be really desired.
I think instead of agreeing and disagreeing with each other, we should give constructive solutions to how the game could be made better, taking into regards the limited resources of cryptic. So asking for a dungeon every month is obviously not possible.
As for the pushing and pulling of players into Group 2 every single game out there has a gear of any kind does this. Why is it specifically the cause of Neverwinter dying when every other game seems to be able to do this just fine? There will always be some new gear in newer modules that is better than your current gear but if there wasn't what would be the reason to play it?
What has killed the game is the developers complete and utter tone deafness on what most players want. this was summed up by Dionichi
"What I very much object to are the changes that seem to necessitate players having to pay, to remain in content they already paid for and were doing well in – being expected to pay twice to be able to play and win in the same content."
No one was asking to make old dungeons as hard as new dungeons. If i randomly decide to run a dungeon from 4 years ago that i was able to do easily back then i expect it to still be easy now. Scaling is what has killed this game for a large portion of the population.
Also.. if we wanted to segregate people into these logic groups, then you need to talk about more than just stats/ gear, you need to talk about skill level and networking as well. There are a lot of people that could be included as end game status based on gear alone, but for reasons of their own may not have the savvy to get the most out of their characters via skill, or be networked with other people to handle end game content without effort. Because of this a lot of people in group 2 also have no content to run because they have completed everything, have a fully outfitted BiS everything characters.. These players have nothing to run to make their characters better, and have no reasonable way to be included in the only content they might want to run.
So... is the game dying? No I don't think so. Is the game hurting? Yes, but that is to be expected with some of the changes over the last year (people ask for change, but actually don't like it), but we should have all seen that the changes would lower veteran player numbers. Many of the changes in the last year are necessary for future game health, and the dev team has a solid foundation to build on now. Assuming this foundation is built upon, then we just have a few mods of pain to put up with, and by M19 we should be in a pretty good place.
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"Don't ever become a pessimist... a pessimist is correct oftener than an optimist, but an optimist has more fun, and neither can stop the march of events."
I.miss the foundry....
I miss the tr skill impossible to catch activating as soon as it was pressed without a crazy delay.
I miss itc allowing us to revive players in dangerous areas that would instant kill you without it.
I miss stealth not breaking on at will attacks.... this whole visible when you attack in pvp sucks when non tr players have shadowclad that allows them to stealth better than tr more often than tr and to attack while stealthed and not be visible at all.
all games come and go.. either for the player or for the company. Just the way it is in the end.
MMOs by nature after long periods , to me personally all seem to run down a bit.