They should take ToMM away and release it when ALL paths/roles of ALL classes can run it balanced. If they're aware of this issue, they need to resolve it as soon as possible. I can't understand the point of releasing content for some classes, and yes when i'm saying classes i mean the ROLE that you want to run with your class.
I completely agree with your opinion. Class players who do not run ToMM are being harmed as every investment to make this content is lost as there is no glory for those who just watch others go to battle. It could also cite PVP items that drop only in ToMM and to some extent benefit only those who perform (or for someone with no sanity who can afford 1M in a ring).
Uh-oh, the crybabies set their targets on tomm, enjoy the challenge while you can, before it becomes trivial content like lomm or tong.
EDIT: Before someone deletes my comment for flaming... Tomm can be completed, it is completed daily by people at the very endgame, that's intended. If you can't do something, work towards it instead of lowering the bar.
Uh-oh, the crybabies set their targets on tomm, enjoy the challenge while you can, before it becomes trivial content like lomm or tong.
EDIT: Before someone deletes my comment for flaming... Tomm can be completed, it is completed daily by people at the very endgame, that's intended. If you can't do something, work towards it instead of lowering the bar.
I would like to correct many people that come here, do not read the OP's initial comment and do not therefore understand the point being made.
No one has said even once in this thread to make TOMM easier. All everyone is saying is to make their dps classes (which are not the top 3) to be able to complete TOMM.
Lets say a wiz does 100k dps per second at 100k power, but a barbie would probably do 70k dps per second with 100k power. This is a 30% damage difference and at end game with diminishing returns from power, this could really mean that you would probably need every single BiS gear and enchant to rank 15 to be able to complete TOMM. Whilst In Sharpedge's guide 150k is recommended as minimum but that is taken into account when the dps are wiz/rogue. Now do the maths for a barb who needs 30% more damage (not exaggerating in dmg difference here) and how much power they would require with 3 defensive slots for companions bonuses lol.
It's clear that people who come here and belittle others for not learning the mechanics have never played a non-dps class in TOMM. They are glory hunters more like, chickens, and keyboard warriors.
> @nooneatza said: > Uh-oh, the crybabies set their targets on tomm, enjoy the challenge while you can, before it becomes trivial content like lomm or tong. > > EDIT: Before someone deletes my comment for flaming... > Tomm can be completed, it is completed daily by people at the very endgame, that's intended. If you can't do something, work towards it instead of lowering the bar.
What challenge after 500 runs you don't die on mechanic, you die from the sunnfall bc you don't meet the dps check . ( sure I can finish it on my tank build if we have the dps or they can carry my dps but eventually everyone want to finish it with the playstyle they want. Until they fix the dps for all )
And people that ask tomm to be removed please don't, first time in years that we have something to play all together and enjoy to still play this game.
I was expecting that kind of reply, things like: "crybabies", "go play support", "a role per class is enough", "you jelly coz you not a Wiz", etc....So basic. An devs encourage this kind of community with their "Your role/class isn't allowed here" trial. Enjoy the content with the role that you don't enjoy, what's the sense to play a game if you feel like you're playing what other people expect from you?, because devs had the fantastic idea to give a support role that i refuse to play? A game with second-class Classes.
> Uh-oh, the crybabies set their targets on tomm, enjoy the challenge while you can, before it becomes trivial content like lomm or tong.
>
> EDIT: Before someone deletes my comment for flaming...
> Tomm can be completed, it is completed daily by people at the very endgame, that's intended. If you can't do something, work towards it instead of lowering the bar.
What challenge after 500 runs you don't die on mechanic, you die from the sunnfall bc you don't meet the dps check . ( sure I can finish it on my tank build if we have the dps or they can carry my dps but eventually everyone want to finish it with the playstyle they want. Until they fix the dps for all )
And people that ask tomm to be removed please don't, first time in years that we have something to play all together and enjoy to still play this game.
Youre right about this, It's the same kind of people who complained about LoMM because it was not doable and too hard but now running this dungeon on a daily base.. They should stop trying to lure Dev's into a new infinite circle of complains, fixes, adjustment and followed by even more complains. They should not trying to set the game to their hands, but working on their char instead..
As for the call for removal of ToMM, finally a trial a lot of ppl have being looked for, a real challenge.. A trial who is made for endgame players, and not for those who seeks the 1 million AD rings presented on a silver platter. People must also realizing the frequently a Dev is joining the ToMM run for observation purposes to get the balances fixed..
& What challenge after 500 runs you don't die on mechanic, you die from the sunnfall bc you don't meet the dps check . ( sure I can finish it on my tank build if we have the dps or they can carry my dps but eventually everyone want to finish it with the playstyle they want. Until they fix the dps for all .
Have to agree that when a game is win through dps check or any stat check, it has more to do with personal stat than player skill. One could argue that combo/rotation require skill, correct timing and knowledge to make a difference but lets be honest, how big influence are those compare to personal stat, companion & enchantment? Its something that the developer ensure so gear score has the greater influence to maintain their business model. Else no one wold spent money in this game.
That being said, this game involved a lot of dps check component in their content. It may look challenging but in the sense of gear score rather than the player skill. Take the Ras'nisi phase for example, no matter how good u dodge the redzone or how good u play, as long as the group dps aren't good enough to eliminate those soul within the time frame, the group are bound for a wipe. Or tiamat, if u can't kill all head in time, it fail.
That why I still prefer game like dragon nest. U can be a lowly geared toon but u can still beat the content with your own skill since their content design are mostly based on positioning and coordination. It just takes much longer time and effort compared to geared character to complete. Thus u have a higher chance for mistake and fail the quest but it is still possible. In this game, u will never beat most of the content if u are not geared. Something that I dislike.
Edit, I would like to add,
Its true that content that gauge dps will bring in more income but its the content that test player's skill that keeps the player's heart at the game.
> Uh-oh, the crybabies set their targets on tomm, enjoy the challenge while you can, before it becomes trivial content like lomm or tong.
>
> EDIT: Before someone deletes my comment for flaming...
> Tomm can be completed, it is completed daily by people at the very endgame, that's intended. If you can't do something, work towards it instead of lowering the bar.
What challenge after 500 runs you don't die on mechanic, you die from the sunnfall bc you don't meet the dps check . ( sure I can finish it on my tank build if we have the dps or they can carry my dps but eventually everyone want to finish it with the playstyle they want. Until they fix the dps for all )
And people that ask tomm to be removed please don't, first time in years that we have something to play all together and enjoy to still play this game.
Youre right about this, It's the same kind of people who complained about LoMM because it was not doable and too hard but now running this dungeon on a daily base.. They should stop trying to lure Dev's into a new infinite circle of complains, fixes, adjustment and followed by even more complains. They should not trying to set the game to their hands, but working on their char instead..
As for the call for removal of ToMM, finally a trial a lot of ppl have being looked for, a real challenge.. A trial who is made for endgame players, and not for those who seeks the 1 million AD rings presented on a silver platter. People must also realizing the frequently a Dev is joining the ToMM run for observation purposes to get the balances fixed..
Read the original post and title of the topic. Not one person wants Tomm nerfed, let alone touched, were talking classes and thhe lack of dps for some of them.
We did some runs today, with me as a warlock, here are the ACT logs from our last run:
Phase 1
1st DPS check:
Phase 2:
so, as u can see my Warlock is quite far behind Yuna, our best CW, with whom im usually on Paar when i run my CW, however, im quite close to the other CWs (Monster Mage, Serafin) and also to our TR (Chev Chillos), Kadlin (our HR) was in ToMM for her 2cnd Time today. Kadlin died close to the start of phase 2 and Serafin at about 50% of phase 2. Somehow we still managed to finish it, but it was the closest run we had so far. Also, in our other runs i was behind Yuna in the DPS checks, i got lucky with crits in this try I died quite a lot in Phase 3, so that also lowered my dps by a bunch.
Its really impossible to stack Risky Investment in Phase 3, due to the soulpuppet dying to almost everything.
So, this shows warlock is really underperfoming in ToMM, BUT i think its still doable, so ppl should still give it their best and train and try to finish, even as warlocks. Im trying to get a group together to run with as many "offmeta" classes as possible atm, but its hard to find 6 ppl that play sw/dc/gf/gwf as dps, that all know the trial and then to find a time where everyone can play. So i cant tell u when we will do it, but ill try to do it ASAP.
We did some runs today, with me as a warlock, here are the ACT logs from our last run:
Phase 1
1st DPS check:
Phase 2:
so, as u can see my Warlock is quite far behind Yuna, our best CW, with whom im usually on Paar when i run my CW, however, im quite close to the other CWs (Monster Mage, Serafin) and also to our TR (Chev Chillos), Kadlin (our HR) was in ToMM for her 2cnd Time today. Kadlin died close to the start of phase 2 and Serafin at about 50% of phase 2. Somehow we still managed to finish it, but it was the closest run we had so far. Also, in our other runs i was behind Yuna in the DPS checks, i got lucky with crits in this try I died quite a lot in Phase 3, so that also lowered my dps by a bunch.
Its really impossible to stack Risky Investment in Phase 3, due to the soulpuppet dying to almost everything.
So, this shows warlock is really underperfoming in ToMM, BUT i think its still doable, so ppl should still give it their best and train and try to finish, even as warlocks. Im trying to get a group together to run with as many "offmeta" classes as possible atm, but its hard to find 6 ppl that play sw/dc/gf/gwf as dps, that all know the trial and then to find a time where everyone can play. So i cant tell u when we will do it, but ill try to do it ASAP.
Doable with a full on carry, that dps is garbage it even makes warlocks look worse then they really are thanks for that though. Now imagine barbs who do 75 percent of a warlock, or a Fighter who does 65 percent of a warlock in that mix instead of your top cws. Goodluck
> @xavior44 said: > (Quote) > Doable with a full on carry, that dps is garbage it even makes warlocks look worse then they really are thanks for that though. Now imagine barbs who do 75 percent of a warlock, or a Fighter who does 65 percent of a warlock in that mix instead of your top cws. Goodluck
Even with my garbage dps its enough to beat ToMM, take Yuna and the 2 ppl that fell off away, and add 3 ppl that do the same dmg as my garbage warlock and we still finish.
EDIT: im not saying Warlock dps is ok, before someone puts words in my mouth.
Oh and also, for anyone that missed it, during Virals Stream with lassor, lassor mentioned that they are testing the balance changes they made internally in ToMM.
Oh and also, for anyone that missed it, during Virals Stream with lassor, lassor mentioned that they are testing the balance changes they made internally in ToMM.
Good news (I hope) for a person that mains a barbarian and atm is very ambivalent on continuing gearing as Sentinel or go full on Blademaster... I switched in July to main Sentinel and that has so far cost me quite a lot :-) in terms of AD.
We just did a run with the following group composition: Tank: GF/OP, Heal: OP/SW, DPS: 2x SW/GF/DC/HR/CW
informations for more context: Our dps GF was playing DPS for the first time in Mod 17, and our DC was also playing DPS DC for the first time in ToMM, so they definitly didnt perform the best the class can possibly do.
ACT Logs:
Phase 1:
Complete Run:
Sunfall dps check:
it Took us 18 seconds to finish the last dps check, so we had quite a bit of room in terms of DPS.
So in conclusion, i think this supports, that we need another balance pass on classes, but the Number one reason why some ppl cant run ToMM is propably not their class.
Edit: here is the link to the Twitch VOD of the run, in case someone wants to watch (the run starts at around the 24 minutes mark)
I always have been and still remain of the opinion that "Class Balance" is an unachievable myth.
It’s like saying a professional football player should be just as adapt at laying brick as a professional mason -and vice versa – a professional mason should be able to play professional football like a pro football player… It’s completely unreasonable and to pretend otherwise is to attempt to deny reality, but some players keep demanding and Neverwinter continues to attempt to achieve the impossible.
As to character class "mechanics" I get it, some characters actually don’t understand the most effective mechanics and tactics for their characters and it can tend to be aggravating. That there will be some characters who do not know or understand the mechanics of their class is an undeniable given – the only remaining question is what if anything should we do about it? Continue to ineffectively complain about it or try to make the attempt to change it?
I had never played a Control Wizard (back when there were Control Wizards), but eventually I did roll one and as it turned out my build really sucked. Fortunately another player noticed my floundering and offered me some advice: “Increase your armor penetration and power and don’t max out your deflection it’s a waste use distance to your advantage. You’re not a Tank.”. I followed that advice and my Control Wizard became a much more effective character and today I can hold my own against most Wizards of equal IL and about all the opponents my character fights.
That is I believe at least something worth thinking about.
DD~
1
greywyndMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 7,158Arc User
Yes, but now you need the deflection...
I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
The problem with this game is any class that aren't a healer or a tank are gauged through dps. When u put a CW and a TR together, how do u judge? Who's DPS is bigger. In other game, people see a versatile spell based class and a tactical stealth class. Will they complain about who has a greater dps? No, because each provide a different capabilities to the group and are a welcome addition to the group regardless. Back in the days when I played baldurs gate, the reason to get a rogue in your group is to have it's rogue skill. Pickpocket, trapping & stealth. The reason to have a wizard is to have the versatility of the wizard spell. In this game, why would u want a TR? DPS. Why would u want a CW? DPS. Typically, everything is DPS.
It really comes down to how the developer design their content. If they are making content that gauge completion through dps, people are going to make dps a common standard ground. That's when people start complaining about x class are doing 30% less damage than y class. It makes the game really dull. What's there other than dps? I mean D&D certainly has more to offer than just dps. What this game got to offer being part of a D&D game?
The problem with this game is any class that aren't a healer or a tank are gauged through dps. When u put a CW and a TR together, how do u judge? Who's DPS is bigger. In other game, people see a versatile spell based class and a tactical stealth class. Will they complain about who has a greater dps? No, because each provide a different capabilities to the group and are a welcome addition to the group regardless. Back in the days when I played baldurs gate, the reason to get a rogue in your group is to have it's rogue skill. Pickpocket, trapping & stealth. The reason to have a wizard is to have the versatility of the wizard spell. In this game, why would u want a TR? DPS. Why would u want a CW? DPS. Typically, everything is DPS.
It really comes down to how the developer design their content. If they are making content that gauge completion through dps, people are going to make dps a common standard ground. That's when people start complaining about x class are doing 30% less damage than y class. It makes the game really dull. What's there other than dps? I mean D&D certainly has more to offer than just dps. What this game got to offer being part of a D&D game?
I agree and that's why people rather just go with any wiz and rogue and be satisfied that their dps will be good enough instead of risking a dps SW, DC, GF and barb.
I believe healing has similar issues. Pally can do any game content with much more ease because of their niche of providing shields and the game just requires that more because of one shot mechanics. If they could somehow make DC's a buffers as well as burst aoe healers and warlocks as debuffers and burst single target healers then that would give each healer its own niche.
I always have been and still remain of the opinion that "Class Balance" is an unachievable myth.
No. No.
The game classes are balanced when MY primary class is top dps. Nothing else.
2
thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
edited September 2019
I find it funny that the people who can't do it take the time to tell the people who can do it what is required to finish it. It can be done with rainbow DpS assuming everyone knows what they are doing, anyone who thinks otherwise, cannot finish the trial to begin with without being hard carried. Is class balance an issue? Yes, but its not the deciding factor in whether or not you can complete tomm.
I find it funny that the people who can't do it take the time to tell the people who can do it what is required to finish it. It can be done with rainbow DpS assuming everyone knows what they are doing, anyone who thinks otherwise, cannot finish the trial to begin with without being hard carried. Is class balance an issue? Yes, but its not the deciding factor in whether or not you can complete tomm.
From what I see, I don't think the concern here are about being able to complete with a rainbow party. Its more on the class they played has less contribution compare to the other class thus causing them difficulty to get into groups. It something that only those that get discriminated know more about than those who didn't. Nothing to do with those player that already completed the content since they have not experience discriminated like those who did. Except if u did experience the discrimination, then post something that are relevant.
you obviously do not play the under performing dps classes... we know the mechanics but when u can not beat the dps check even with a FULL TEAM with no res sickness.. and u have no wizards or rogues in your party let alone the 4 needed.. GOODLUCK passing the dps check. Please explain how learning mechanics and spending time on test( which alot of us do) will help us under performing dps... you generalized here i was always VS making lotmm easier and i dont want Tomm touched either.. its a class issue not a mechanics issue again. and yes we have a fullstack of debuff artifacts
You need to coordinate your attacks and rotations as well as the use of artifacts and debuffs. It's the only way to maximize the damage output. This thing require the use of vocal chat (like discord) or a well knowledge of the other players playstyle/timing.
I find it funny that the people who can't do it take the time to tell the people who can do it what is required to finish it. It can be done with rainbow DpS assuming everyone knows what they are doing, anyone who thinks otherwise, cannot finish the trial to begin with without being hard carried. Is class balance an issue? Yes, but its not the deciding factor in whether or not you can complete tomm.
From what I see, I don't think the concern here are about being able to complete with a rainbow party. Its more on the class they played has less contribution compare to the other class thus causing them difficulty to get into groups. It something that only those that get discriminated know more about than those who didn't. Nothing to do with those player that already completed the content since they have not experience discriminated like those who did. Except if u did experience the discrimination, then post something that are relevant.
Maybe, but the Main reason why ppl who finished it didnt experience this "discrimination" was because they made their own Party, instead of hopeing to beat it with a PE Pug group.
@coolgor28#5062 About Companion Slots I agree with you. To start the balancing Devs should make the same Companion Slots depending on which loadout you are playing. For example taking into account Barbarians: Are you playing Tank loadout? Then you should have 3 Defensive slots, 1 Offensive slot and 1 Utility slot. Are you playing DPS loadout? Then you should have 3 Offensive slots, 1 Defensive slot and 1 Utility slot. This is the point where the balancing procedure start...
I agree with @kangkeok ... If dungeons were designed in a way you would actually need to utilise classes strengths in some way, it would be different. All you need for any dung is dps... And all dps want to do is top paingiver. Everybody is always talking about difficult content, so you build a single boss trial with the mechanics you could think of and yeah, thats fine for itself, but where is content for aoe mob control while st dps takes care of the boss, or mob control of any kind, where is variation within dps or within healers, other than healer class a) can't heal this boss because of broken mechanic b) can heal if you find somebody willing to do it c) can do some fancy stuff for a while til it was too fancy and got nerfed. Playing in certain party setup because teamwork is actually necessary and a fun and engaging part of the game and playing in certain party setup because somebody else told you to do it are two completely separate things. If nobody got a job and everybody is out for the same thing/chart, you force ppl to pick best dps/healer/tank class to be competitive after you already stripped them of builds, feats and more often than not entire buggy paragons.
- bye bye -
0
darthpotaterMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,261Arc User
@coolgor28#5062 About Companion Slots I agree with you. To start the balancing Devs should make the same Companion Slots depending on which loadout you are playing. For example taking into account Barbarians: Are you playing Tank loadout? Then you should have 3 Defensive slots, 1 Offensive slot and 1 Utility slot. Are you playing DPS loadout? Then you should have 3 Offensive slots, 1 Defensive slot and 1 Utility slot. This is the point where the balancing procedure start...
I think that solution is the best for players, but not the best for developers. Changing slots must be more challenging because the loadout mechanic (i assume is more or less generic) becomes more complicated. I assume that is the reason dual-role-classes have the same companions in both roles.
One solution not hard to implement is that this classes have 2 offense, 2 defense, 1 utility. Maybe is not perfect but is something
I think that solution is the best for players, but not the best for developers. Changing slots must be more challenging because the loadout mechanic (i assume is more or less generic) becomes more complicated. I assume that is the reason dual-role-classes have the same companions in both roles.
One solution not hard to implement is that this classes have 2 offense, 2 defense, 1 utility. Maybe is not perfect but is something
Could be hard, sure, no one said it's not. But it's the only way to start balancing... Or, you can make a way easier thing: remove the "type" of slot and make possible to put whatever companion you want in your companion slots. Never you do this, never Classes like Barbarians will be at the same level of pure DPS role Classes because they have not the possibility to have the same amount of "Power Companions" as well as "Damage Bonus Companions". After that, you can work on feats/encounters/damage formula to try to do your best to balance the game.
For a moment I thought this was a thread about class balance.. but I guess balance is all about TOMM now?
TOMM is great, all the truths bandied about should be utterly obvious (don't pug, use voice, coordinate) but its good to have them reiterated. Also I am happy to learn that in TOMM the differences in DPS potential that exists between classes is not a deal breaker (thx tom). As with most challenging raids it seems to be about the people working together more than purely individual prowess (not that that does not still matter ). Awesome
But, TOMM is so specific and such a narrow basis for comparison, that I would not want it used as the main/only basis for determining balance issues. Sure, I want to be able to try TOMM on my DPS Warlock (and fail horribly a couple dozen times), but mostly I want balance to be looked at in a significantly broader perspective. Its not all about the damage potential, its also about the effort and investment required to reach it. About not giving some classes powers that always just work, while letting other classes have powers that just cannot be made to work under certain circumstances..etc. etc..
Comments
EDIT: Before someone deletes my comment for flaming...
Tomm can be completed, it is completed daily by people at the very endgame, that's intended. If you can't do something, work towards it instead of lowering the bar.
No one has said even once in this thread to make TOMM easier. All everyone is saying is to make their dps classes (which are not the top 3) to be able to complete TOMM.
Lets say a wiz does 100k dps per second at 100k power, but a barbie would probably do 70k dps per second with 100k power. This is a 30% damage difference and at end game with diminishing returns from power, this could really mean that you would probably need every single BiS gear and enchant to rank 15 to be able to complete TOMM. Whilst In Sharpedge's guide 150k is recommended as minimum but that is taken into account when the dps are wiz/rogue. Now do the maths for a barb who needs 30% more damage (not exaggerating in dmg difference here) and how much power they would require with 3 defensive slots for companions bonuses lol.
It's clear that people who come here and belittle others for not learning the mechanics have never played a non-dps class in TOMM. They are glory hunters more like, chickens, and keyboard warriors.
> Uh-oh, the crybabies set their targets on tomm, enjoy the challenge while you can, before it becomes trivial content like lomm or tong.
>
> EDIT: Before someone deletes my comment for flaming...
> Tomm can be completed, it is completed daily by people at the very endgame, that's intended. If you can't do something, work towards it instead of lowering the bar.
What challenge after 500 runs you don't die on mechanic, you die from the sunnfall bc you don't meet the dps check . ( sure I can finish it on my tank build if we have the dps or they can carry my dps but eventually everyone want to finish it with the playstyle they want. Until they fix the dps for all )
And people that ask tomm to be removed please don't, first time in years that we have something to play all together and enjoy to still play this game.
The imaginary Friends
Main Kingslayer.jr(barb)
It's the same kind of people who complained about LoMM because it was not doable and too hard but now running this dungeon on a daily base..
They should stop trying to lure Dev's into a new infinite circle of complains, fixes, adjustment and followed by even more complains.
They should not trying to set the game to their hands, but working on their char instead..
As for the call for removal of ToMM, finally a trial a lot of ppl have being looked for, a real challenge..
A trial who is made for endgame players, and not for those who seeks the 1 million AD rings presented on a silver platter.
People must also realizing the frequently a Dev is joining the ToMM run for observation purposes to get the balances fixed..
That being said, this game involved a lot of dps check component in their content. It may look challenging but in the sense of gear score rather than the player skill. Take the Ras'nisi phase for example, no matter how good u dodge the redzone or how good u play, as long as the group dps aren't good enough to eliminate those soul within the time frame, the group are bound for a wipe. Or tiamat, if u can't kill all head in time, it fail.
That why I still prefer game like dragon nest. U can be a lowly geared toon but u can still beat the content with your own skill since their content design are mostly based on positioning and coordination. It just takes much longer time and effort compared to geared character to complete. Thus u have a higher chance for mistake and fail the quest but it is still possible. In this game, u will never beat most of the content if u are not geared. Something that I dislike.
Edit, I would like to add,
Its true that content that gauge dps will bring in more income but its the content that test player's skill that keeps the player's heart at the game.
We did some runs today, with me as a warlock, here are the ACT logs from our last run:
Phase 1
1st DPS check:
Phase 2:
so, as u can see my Warlock is quite far behind Yuna, our best CW, with whom im usually on Paar when i run my CW, however, im quite close to the other CWs (Monster Mage, Serafin) and also to our TR (Chev Chillos), Kadlin (our HR) was in ToMM for her 2cnd Time today. Kadlin died close to the start of phase 2 and Serafin at about 50% of phase 2.
Somehow we still managed to finish it, but it was the closest run we had so far.
Also, in our other runs i was behind Yuna in the DPS checks, i got lucky with crits in this try
I died quite a lot in Phase 3, so that also lowered my dps by a bunch.
Its really impossible to stack Risky Investment in Phase 3, due to the soulpuppet dying to almost everything.
So, this shows warlock is really underperfoming in ToMM, BUT i think its still doable, so ppl should still give it their best and train and try to finish, even as warlocks.
Im trying to get a group together to run with as many "offmeta" classes as possible atm, but its hard to find 6 ppl that play sw/dc/gf/gwf as dps, that all know the trial and then to find a time where everyone can play. So i cant tell u when we will do it, but ill try to do it ASAP.
> (Quote)
> Doable with a full on carry, that dps is garbage it even makes warlocks look worse then they really are
Even with my garbage dps its enough to beat ToMM, take Yuna and the 2 ppl that fell off away, and add 3 ppl that do the same dmg as my garbage warlock and we still finish.
EDIT: im not saying Warlock dps is ok, before someone puts words in my mouth.
We just did a run with the following group composition: Tank: GF/OP, Heal: OP/SW, DPS: 2x SW/GF/DC/HR/CW
informations for more context: Our dps GF was playing DPS for the first time in Mod 17, and our DC was also playing DPS DC for the first time in ToMM, so they definitly didnt perform the best the class can possibly do.
ACT Logs:
Phase 1:
Complete Run:
Sunfall dps check:
it Took us 18 seconds to finish the last dps check, so we had quite a bit of room in terms of DPS.
So in conclusion, i think this supports, that we need another balance pass on classes, but the Number one reason why some ppl cant run ToMM is propably not their class.
Edit: here is the link to the Twitch VOD of the run, in case someone wants to watch (the run starts at around the 24 minutes mark)
Anyway great testing job!
It’s like saying a professional football player should be just as adapt at laying brick as a professional mason -and vice versa – a professional mason should be able to play professional football like a pro football player… It’s completely unreasonable and to pretend otherwise is to attempt to deny reality, but some players keep demanding and Neverwinter continues to attempt to achieve the impossible.
As to character class "mechanics" I get it, some characters actually don’t understand the most effective mechanics and tactics for their characters and it can tend to be aggravating. That there will be some characters who do not know or understand the mechanics of their class is an undeniable given – the only remaining question is what if anything should we do about it? Continue to ineffectively complain about it or try to make the attempt to change it?
I had never played a Control Wizard (back when there were Control Wizards), but eventually I did roll one and as it turned out my build really sucked. Fortunately another player noticed my floundering and offered me some advice: “Increase your armor penetration and power and don’t max out your deflection it’s a waste use distance to your advantage. You’re not a Tank.”. I followed that advice and my Control Wizard became a much more effective character and today I can hold my own against most Wizards of equal IL and about all the opponents my character fights.
That is I believe at least something worth thinking about.
It really comes down to how the developer design their content. If they are making content that gauge completion through dps, people are going to make dps a common standard ground. That's when people start complaining about x class are doing 30% less damage than y class. It makes the game really dull. What's there other than dps? I mean D&D certainly has more to offer than just dps. What this game got to offer being part of a D&D game?
I agree and that's why people rather just go with any wiz and rogue and be satisfied that their dps will be good enough instead of risking a dps SW, DC, GF and barb.
I believe healing has similar issues. Pally can do any game content with much more ease because of their niche of providing shields and the game just requires that more because of one shot mechanics. If they could somehow make DC's a buffers as well as burst aoe healers and warlocks as debuffers and burst single target healers then that would give each healer its own niche.
The game classes are balanced when MY primary class is top dps. Nothing else.
All you need for any dung is dps... And all dps want to do is top paingiver. Everybody is always talking about difficult content, so you build a single boss trial with the mechanics you could think of and yeah, thats fine for itself, but where is content for aoe mob control while st dps takes care of the boss, or mob control of any kind, where is variation within dps or within healers, other than healer class a) can't heal this boss because of broken mechanic
b) can heal if you find somebody willing to do it
c) can do some fancy stuff for a while til it was too fancy and got nerfed.
Playing in certain party setup because teamwork is actually necessary and a fun and engaging part of the game and playing in certain party setup because somebody else told you to do it are two completely separate things.
If nobody got a job and everybody is out for the same thing/chart, you force ppl to pick best dps/healer/tank class to be competitive after you already stripped them of builds, feats and more often than not entire buggy paragons.
One solution not hard to implement is that this classes have 2 offense, 2 defense, 1 utility. Maybe is not perfect but is something
Caturday Survivor
Elemental Evil Survivor
Undermontain Survivor
Mod20 Combat rework Survivor
Mod22 Refinement rework Survivor
TOMM is great, all the truths bandied about should be utterly obvious (don't pug, use voice, coordinate) but its good to have them reiterated. Also I am happy to learn that in TOMM the differences in DPS potential that exists between classes is not a deal breaker (thx tom). As with most challenging raids it seems to be about the people working together more than purely individual prowess (not that that does not still matter
But, TOMM is so specific and such a narrow basis for comparison, that I would not want it used as the main/only basis for determining balance issues. Sure, I want to be able to try TOMM on my DPS Warlock (and fail horribly a couple dozen times), but mostly I want balance to be looked at in a significantly broader perspective. Its not all about the damage potential, its also about the effort and investment required to reach it. About not giving some classes powers that always just work, while letting other classes have powers that just cannot be made to work under certain circumstances..etc. etc..