But healing should be in a place where the majority of average players can do content. Healing should be in a place where everyone can do everything because no one can die due to so much healing.
That really depends on how u describe average player. From my experience, majority of average player could not do Tong and CR content. That's why u see most of the time, those dungeon wont even start where people start afking at the campfire. Tong is much better since the 1st 2 boss are doable with average player up till the end fight. Majority of Tong run ended up with abandon instance at end fight. That's the most frustrating part when u have spend so much time to get there and end up a fail run. Even before patch, I have to pray that my group are good enough for the end fight because good group to complete Tong are hard to come by. With the patch kick in, it filter even more player away from being the eligible group for Tong end fight. Player don't know what they are doing? Well, that's the average player this game had. Should healing be in a place where they could do those content? U tell me.
Well, you don't have to worry about running ToNG as an OP healer, just don't. It seems the shield effect from pally heals now seem to replace the HP buff for avatar meant for absorbing the death orbs, removing it from the player and preventing them from being healed till end of fight.
I notice people saying that healing is still easy for them but are not posting their outgoing healing % or their power numbers and bonding rune stones numbers and guild boons. Not everyone has leg healing companions and for lower new players or middle tier it makes it more difficult. I notice that people talk about end game but in this game there is more to this them just endgame. The game is filled with players of all levels and of all gear scores. I understand and respect that you want a challenge. If content is too easy have you tried to create a new character from start to endgame again without using other characters to help gear up your character and not having guild boons.
1
arazith07Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,719Arc User
I personally have 120k power and 0% outgoing healing and have no issues with LoMM (have not healed CR or ToNG since the patch).
But healing should be in a place where the majority of average players can do content. Healing should be in a place where everyone can do everything because no one can die due to so much healing.
That really depends on how u describe average player. From my experience, majority of average player could not do Tong and CR content. That's why u see most of the time, those dungeon wont even start where people start afking at the campfire. Tong is much better since the 1st 2 boss are doable with average player up till the end fight. Majority of Tong run ended up with abandon instance at end fight. That's the most frustrating part when u have spend so much time to get there and end up a fail run. Even before patch, I have to pray that my group are good enough for the end fight because good group to complete Tong are hard to come by. With the patch kick in, it filter even more player away from being the eligible group for Tong end fight. Player don't know what they are doing? Well, that's the average player this game had. Should healing be in a place where they could do those content? U tell me.
Before mod 16 the majority of players couldnt afford being a DPS in TONG or CR. It was easier to be a support, but a system where DPS is only for the rich is a bad system.
Now they can afford being a DPS. But they are also forced to care about their stats. They are forced to pay attention to red. They are forced to learn mechanics and do them. And when they dont it sucks for everyone. They can no longer be fully carried by 1 person anymore. Some places u still can to a point. But most groups have to put in some work if they want rewards. Why is that such a bad system ?
I notice people saying that healing is still easy for them but are not posting their outgoing healing % or their power numbers and bonding rune stones numbers and guild boons. Not everyone has leg healing companions and for lower new players or middle tier it makes it more difficult. I notice that people talk about end game but in this game there is more to this them just endgame. The game is filled with players of all levels and of all gear scores. I understand and respect that you want a challenge. If content is too easy have you tried to create a new character from start to endgame again without using other characters to help gear up your character and not having guild boons.
I have 140k power and only outgoing healing from WIS on my healers. And it wouldnt be a problem for me to heal at lower power. And i know this because i spend a lot of divinity on DPS powers too when im running, or because im always above 50% on my runs. So less more would just mean less divinity on DPS and i would get closer to 0.
I was doing LoMM since day 1, when things had more HP and we had less stats cause of enchantments. My first heals on LoMM i had 110-120k power and same amount of outgoing healing, and i had 0 issues with it.
I had guildies healing on pretty much new toons with 100k power no extra outgoing healing and it was nice and smooth runs.
2
arazith07Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,719Arc User
Not every person in this game is out to be an end-gamer. Some of us just run casually, help out Guildies or want to relax running solo in campaigns. Also, not everybody plays this game in a way that requires "home-work" before running a dungeon or skirmish. No game ought to function that way. This is a video game, not a college exam. Regardless, I am also seeing an issue of healers taking a significant amount of agro away from the Tank. Ever since the launch of Mod 16, I am seeing healers one-shot repeatedly! A dead healer is good to no one. Its gotten to the point where I am specing my healing Paladin to a Tank spec... but I believe all healers need to try this:
- Soulforged and Holy enchantments slotted, - Lathander set, Wandering Orb, plus two other HP-centric artifacts, - All Radiants in slots and HP armor kits, - Bulette Pup, Celeste, Phoera, Mystic Phoera, Angel, any augment (summoned). - Drowned Weapon set.
I have tried to get my hands on a Drowned weapon set just to have that 50% HP passive heal to stay alive for my team, but the drop rates for the Motes of Water are insanely low, and nobody is selling Water Seeker's Wands on the AH any more. (Come on you Neverwintan entrepreneurs, work with us!) There is also an issue where the mount insignia healing bonuses are failing to trigger until after combat has ended. And then there is the companion nerf... where before having a healer companion summoned helped take some pressure off of the party-healer to stay alive... now the companion just stands there like a fence-post and does nothing.
Not good.
Post edited by caldochaud#4880 on
"Talent is a flame. Genius is a fire." - Sir Bernard Williams
I notice people saying that healing is still easy for them but are not posting their outgoing healing % or their power numbers and bonding rune stones numbers and guild boons. Not everyone has leg healing companions and for lower new players or middle tier it makes it more difficult. I notice that people talk about end game but in this game there is more to this them just endgame. The game is filled with players of all levels and of all gear scores. I understand and respect that you want a challenge. If content is too easy have you tried to create a new character from start to endgame again without using other characters to help gear up your character and not having guild boons.
I just ran a LoMM with a cleric with sub 100k power. He started his account 45 days ago. No legendary companions either. He was able to heal my tank with 850k HP to full when I was cocooned. Then I ran with a paladin with BiS everything and he let me die (killing the team in the process) to the cocoon twice. I think that's pretty impressive and also indicative of what healers are capable of when you substitute gear for learning the intricacies of a class.
When I started playing this game, I almost solely focused on pvp, where your gear is highly important. But, I didn't HAVE the gear to go toe to toe with everyone. I had to really learn what my class was able to do, and think about how I could win despite being at a disadvantage numerically. When the content is difficult, it falls on us to use our brains to think of creative ways to make it work. The more personal accountability we take for failing, the more we can learn and grow as people and as players. Immediately blaming failure on some outside force like "not enough gear" means we don't have to look at ourselves and how we can improve skillwise.
While Neverwinter is a game based on numbers and calculations, those things aren't everything.
I am also seeing an issue of healers taking a significant amount of agro away from the Tank. Ever since the launch of Mod 16, I am seeing healers one-shot repeatedly! A dead healer is good to no one. Its gotten to the point where I am specing my healing Paladin to a Tank spec... but I believe all healers need to try this:
- Soulforged and Holy enchantments slotted, - Lathander set, Wandering Orb, plus two other HP-centric artifacts, - All Radiants in slots and HP armor kits, - Bulette Pup, Celeste, Phoera, Mystic Phoera, Angel, any augment (summoned). - Drowned Weapon set.
I have tried to get my hands on a Drowned weapon set just to have that 50% HP passive heal to stay alive for my team, but the drop rates for the Motes of Water are insanely low, and nobody is selling Water Seeker's Wands on the AH any more. (Come on you Neverwintan entrepreneurs, work with us!) There is also an issue where the mount insignia healing bonuses are failing to trigger until after combat has ended. And then there is the companion nerf... where before having a healer companion summoned helped take some pressure off of the party-healer to stay alive... now the companion just stands there like a fence-post and does nothing.
Not good.
If a tank cant hold agro against a healer, the tank is doing some seriously wrong. Holding agro vs a strong DPS can be hard for lower geared tanks, but should never be an issue vs a healer.
Everyone should build some HP and make sure they have enough defense to do die on skills that cant be dodged, like final blow in LoMM.
While soulforged is nice, if u need it, something else is wrong in the party. Holy enchantment heal is very low and doesnt help much of anything. Lathander set is a waste. HP artifacts are nice to have, but there is cheaper ways to boost HP on a healer.
Augments give more stats than an attacking pet, but as a healer u can use attacking pet just fine and still reach needed caps for being a good healer.
Drowned weapon set is the worst possible advice u could ever give anyway. Its a very old set, so the weapon dmg is very low, and that will reduce ur heals by a lot. And the healing from it is horrible, close to the point where its worthless for anyone.
Before mod 16 pets healing was pointless, even cleric heals where pointless. Only healers anyone used was paladin and warlock. And pets did so little compared that u never noticed them and didnt take any pressure of anything.
I can understand why ur having trouble with healing from what ur saying. Ur idea of whats good and bad is no where near reality.
Before mod 16 pets healing was pointless, even cleric heals where pointless. Only healers anyone used was paladin and warlock. And pets did so little compared that u never noticed them and didnt take any pressure of anything.
The pets I've used most are an Energon, Remorhaaz, and a Lilend. Energons don't really do much. Remorhaaz tend to die a lot. Which leaves the Lilend, who mostly just heals me. Not really sure why she likes to hug dragons though. The dragons apparently don't like it...
But healing should be in a place where the majority of average players can do content. Healing should be in a place where everyone can do everything because no one can die due to so much healing.
That really depends on how u describe average player. From my experience, majority of average player could not do Tong and CR content. That's why u see most of the time, those dungeon wont even start where people start afking at the campfire. Tong is much better since the 1st 2 boss are doable with average player up till the end fight. Majority of Tong run ended up with abandon instance at end fight. That's the most frustrating part when u have spend so much time to get there and end up a fail run. Even before patch, I have to pray that my group are good enough for the end fight because good group to complete Tong are hard to come by. With the patch kick in, it filter even more player away from being the eligible group for Tong end fight. Player don't know what they are doing? Well, that's the average player this game had. Should healing be in a place where they could do those content? U tell me.
Before mod 16 the majority of players couldnt afford being a DPS in TONG or CR. It was easier to be a support, but a system where DPS is only for the rich is a bad system.
Now they can afford being a DPS. But they are also forced to care about their stats. They are forced to pay attention to red. They are forced to learn mechanics and do them. And when they dont it sucks for everyone. They can no longer be fully carried by 1 person anymore. Some places u still can to a point. But most groups have to put in some work if they want rewards. Why is that such a bad system ?
Well, when RAQ dungeon like Tong and CR which are meant for 16k ilvl are actually harder than REQ Lomm which is for 20K+ people, that's a bad system. Tong and CR are suppose to be easier than Lomm. Not the other way around.
So far I have no problem healing with 110k power and 42% outgoing heal in Lomm. Its doable. Tong and CR however, the problem lies with end fight. There is no room for u to regen your divinity no matter how efficient u manage your divinity and with all your divinity regen encounter, feat and class feature turned on. The longer the fight last the less divinity u have and ultimately a wipe. Even using health stone are more effective than having a healer to be honest. The heal magnitude and the divinity regen rate are just too low after the patch. With dungeon scaling further reducing it, there is no way u can keep up against the consistent damage your group received especially u are playing with at level group. And that me as a 21k healer. U can imagine that if u are a 16k healer.
So yeah, Tong and CR difficulty are definitely off for a RAQ standard. The developer should consider either toning the difficulty down or reevaluate the heal scaling in RAQ. Especially with the healing nerf patch, it just makes no sense that CR and Tong are more difficulty than Lomm.
Not every person in this game is out to be an end-gamer. Some of us just run casually, help out Guildies or want to relax running solo in campaigns. Also, not everybody plays this game in a way that requires "home-work" before running a dungeon or skirmish. No game ought to function that way. This is a video game, not a college exam. Regardless, I am also seeing an issue of healers taking a significant amount of agro away from the Tank. Ever since the launch of Mod 16, I am seeing healers one-shot repeatedly! A dead healer is good to no one. Its gotten to the point where I am specing my healing Paladin to a Tank spec... but I believe all healers need to try this:
- Soulforged and Holy enchantments slotted, - Lathander set, Wandering Orb, plus two other HP-centric artifacts, - All Radiants in slots and HP armor kits, - Bulette Pup, Celeste, Phoera, Mystic Phoera, Angel, any augment (summoned). - Drowned Weapon set.
I have tried to get my hands on a Drowned weapon set just to have that 50% HP passive heal to stay alive for my team, but the drop rates for the Motes of Water are insanely low, and nobody is selling Water Seeker's Wands on the AH any more. (Come on you Neverwintan entrepreneurs, work with us!) There is also an issue where the mount insignia healing bonuses are failing to trigger until after combat has ended. And then there is the companion nerf... where before having a healer companion summoned helped take some pressure off of the party-healer to stay alive... now the companion just stands there like a fence-post and does nothing.
Not good.
I agree. The problem lies with not many people in this game are able to embrace casual player or even accept their casual behavior. Most will expect u to be as good as them and will blame u at the first sign of not knowing the game. However there are few who are willing to accept of who u are and laugh at each other failure on a Friday night game. My old guild run is a fine example. We will hangout doing dread vault while laughing at each other goofiness.
But healing should be in a place where the majority of average players can do content. Healing should be in a place where everyone can do everything because no one can die due to so much healing.
That really depends on how u describe average player. From my experience, majority of average player could not do Tong and CR content. That's why u see most of the time, those dungeon wont even start where people start afking at the campfire. Tong is much better since the 1st 2 boss are doable with average player up till the end fight. Majority of Tong run ended up with abandon instance at end fight. That's the most frustrating part when u have spend so much time to get there and end up a fail run. Even before patch, I have to pray that my group are good enough for the end fight because good group to complete Tong are hard to come by. With the patch kick in, it filter even more player away from being the eligible group for Tong end fight. Player don't know what they are doing? Well, that's the average player this game had. Should healing be in a place where they could do those content? U tell me.
Well, you don't have to worry about running ToNG as an OP healer, just don't. It seems the shield effect from pally heals now seem to replace the HP buff for avatar meant for absorbing the death orbs, removing it from the player and preventing them from being healed till end of fight.
Now that u remind me of that, it seem to be a bug during orcus phase in Tong after the patch. The relic no longer give u the yellow hp buff. It seem that u are able to stll absorb the orb but at the cost of your real hp. U can't heal yourself and u take damage from zombie. However, I m not sure if it is caused by paladin heal but I shall take note. Thanks for sharing.
I am also seeing an issue of healers taking a significant amount of agro away from the Tank. Ever since the launch of Mod 16, I am seeing healers one-shot repeatedly! A dead healer is good to no one. Its gotten to the point where I am specing my healing Paladin to a Tank spec... but I believe all healers need to try this:
- Soulforged and Holy enchantments slotted, - Lathander set, Wandering Orb, plus two other HP-centric artifacts, - All Radiants in slots and HP armor kits, - Bulette Pup, Celeste, Phoera, Mystic Phoera, Angel, any augment (summoned). - Drowned Weapon set.
I have tried to get my hands on a Drowned weapon set just to have that 50% HP passive heal to stay alive for my team, but the drop rates for the Motes of Water are insanely low, and nobody is selling Water Seeker's Wands on the AH any more. (Come on you Neverwintan entrepreneurs, work with us!) There is also an issue where the mount insignia healing bonuses are failing to trigger until after combat has ended. And then there is the companion nerf... where before having a healer companion summoned helped take some pressure off of the party-healer to stay alive... now the companion just stands there like a fence-post and does nothing.
Not good.
If a tank cant hold agro against a healer, the tank is doing some seriously wrong. Holding agro vs a strong DPS can be hard for lower geared tanks, but should never be an issue vs a healer.
Everyone should build some HP and make sure they have enough defense to do die on skills that cant be dodged, like final blow in LoMM.
While soulforged is nice, if u need it, something else is wrong in the party. Holy enchantment heal is very low and doesnt help much of anything. Lathander set is a waste. HP artifacts are nice to have, but there is cheaper ways to boost HP on a healer.
Augments give more stats than an attacking pet, but as a healer u can use attacking pet just fine and still reach needed caps for being a good healer.
Drowned weapon set is the worst possible advice u could ever give anyway. Its a very old set, so the weapon dmg is very low, and that will reduce ur heals by a lot. And the healing from it is horrible, close to the point where its worthless for anyone.
Before mod 16 pets healing was pointless, even cleric heals where pointless. Only healers anyone used was paladin and warlock. And pets did so little compared that u never noticed them and didnt take any pressure of anything.
I can understand why ur having trouble with healing from what ur saying. Ur idea of whats good and bad is no where near reality.
While I don't have every piece I listed here, I've actually died less after beginning to work towards this build... and the times I have died, I find that I rez agro-free/sickness-free and can keep healing the team. Prior to that, I was following what everybody said my build should be according to Mod 16... and it simply didn't work for me. As for the Drowned set... it is the only set in the entire game offering a stated 50% heal based of your total HP and I am seeing players still using it even now. That raises the argument if the theory-crafters in the game must have stumbled on a new benefit from this old set.
"Talent is a flame. Genius is a fire." - Sir Bernard Williams
I don't agree completely about the general consens "lomm is easy" and I don't think the level of measure should be premade runs with veteran player. If I would be a dev and read through this "my DC has 90k power and zero outgoing and I am at full Divinity all time", all I would pull out of it was: -> 2. round nerf started, when a class at minimum gear has no isseus running that dungeon. Maybe the rest of the group was pretty strong in terms of gameplay, can't tell. I advise some in here to queue random and look for the challenge on their "90k power zero %heal toons"
Lomm looks like this to me as Oathkeeper, where I think the class is still ahead of the others. My Oathkeeper at 40% outgoing and 130k power 126k crit actually. 1. boss is the most easy one, not that much of a challenge for most healer classes at decent gear 2. boss is challenging , at least the moment you run with a random group that is not perfect in gameplay and maybe in terms of stats too, and there seem to be a lot of groups that actually fail on life after rework. 3. last boss is easier in generel for Oathkeeper, where the 2 other classes tend to fail a lot from my observation. There are far more critical moments when the tank misses his block etc. from my pov.
I met groups stuck at 2. boss, left by the tank and heal, me queing as random healer. From dps side I saw sveral DC's with better gear than my pally, who struggled at 2. and 3. boss significant, where the tank died in a row (maybe the tank was simply bad). The most reliable class stays paladin imo, I am pretty sure new content will not be absolvable without that solid barrier effect lowered for 30% now. Maybe there will be groups capable to absolve tomm with DC/Soulweaver at the end of mod 17, maybe.. maybe not.
There will allways be some very, very few player that reach perfect results with a 300k+ barrier on the group as you can witness in those preview vids, but this is a very, very small minority... maybe like 2 or 3 Not sure if the downgrade was active that time, same as I read somewhere those groups run their chars at up to 30% incoming healing, not sure. I am very curious about what the general feedback will turn into, the moment the new trial starts for the masses and this hits on top: "Critical Touch may no longer proc when an offensive action such as Valorous Strike is used without a target." Maybe this will lead to an even smaller ammount of groups capable to absolve those dungeons.
Beside that I think there are a lot of player that pretty much focus on damage exclusively, missing stats like def or awareness same as HP, also due to lower gearlevel, agreed. But I also saw a lot of tanks running at 300k HP or worse, where your HP (capped def/awarness etc.) is your most important stat to block attacks. I tend to say, a huge number of tanks in this game, esp. concerning random groups, runs an awkward setup. Stats not adjusted, "sloppy setup" to some degree and I think this is not only caused by low gearlevel same as I think this is one of the core problems. Same as I met tanks, who were pretty much capable to run though that dungeon nearly without being in need of a healer. I think damagedealer (provided they don't play and build as a jerk) are from minor importance in this discussion.
I am also seeing an issue of healers taking a significant amount of agro away from the Tank. Ever since the launch of Mod 16, I am seeing healers one-shot repeatedly! A dead healer is good to no one. Its gotten to the point where I am specing my healing Paladin to a Tank spec... but I believe all healers need to try this:
- Soulforged and Holy enchantments slotted, - Lathander set, Wandering Orb, plus two other HP-centric artifacts, - All Radiants in slots and HP armor kits, - Bulette Pup, Celeste, Phoera, Mystic Phoera, Angel, any augment (summoned). - Drowned Weapon set.
I have tried to get my hands on a Drowned weapon set just to have that 50% HP passive heal to stay alive for my team, but the drop rates for the Motes of Water are insanely low, and nobody is selling Water Seeker's Wands on the AH any more. (Come on you Neverwintan entrepreneurs, work with us!) There is also an issue where the mount insignia healing bonuses are failing to trigger until after combat has ended. And then there is the companion nerf... where before having a healer companion summoned helped take some pressure off of the party-healer to stay alive... now the companion just stands there like a fence-post and does nothing.
Not good.
If a tank cant hold agro against a healer, the tank is doing some seriously wrong. Holding agro vs a strong DPS can be hard for lower geared tanks, but should never be an issue vs a healer.
Everyone should build some HP and make sure they have enough defense to do die on skills that cant be dodged, like final blow in LoMM.
While soulforged is nice, if u need it, something else is wrong in the party. Holy enchantment heal is very low and doesnt help much of anything. Lathander set is a waste. HP artifacts are nice to have, but there is cheaper ways to boost HP on a healer.
Augments give more stats than an attacking pet, but as a healer u can use attacking pet just fine and still reach needed caps for being a good healer.
Drowned weapon set is the worst possible advice u could ever give anyway. Its a very old set, so the weapon dmg is very low, and that will reduce ur heals by a lot. And the healing from it is horrible, close to the point where its worthless for anyone.
Before mod 16 pets healing was pointless, even cleric heals where pointless. Only healers anyone used was paladin and warlock. And pets did so little compared that u never noticed them and didnt take any pressure of anything.
I can understand why ur having trouble with healing from what ur saying. Ur idea of whats good and bad is no where near reality.
While I don't have every piece I listed here, I've actually died less after beginning to work towards this build... and the times I have died, I find that I rez agro-free/sickness-free and can keep healing the team. Prior to that, I was following what everybody said my build should be according to Mod 16... and it simply didn't work for me. As for the Drowned set... it is the only set in the entire game offering a stated 50% heal based of your total HP and I am seeing players still using it even now. That raises the argument if the theory-crafters in the game must have stumbled on a new benefit from this old set.
W/e works for u i guess. Doesnt change the fact that its not a good setup. U have lower heals, u have lower stats, ur relying on years old gear.
Yes the drowned set does heal u for 50% of ur HP, but its over 30 sec. That means if u have 300k HP, u will get a 5k heal every sec. That heals is enough to keep u alive for solo play, but that heal is way way to low to do anything for u in dungeons if u keep taking dmg. So what ur saying is, when u stand in red and cause urself to take dmg u could have avoided, ur using drowned set instead of potions because ur not able to heal urself with ur skills ?
Are u sure ur not just dying less because u had no clue how to play at the start of mod 16, and now after some months its slowly starting to sink in ? And it has nothing to do with using old outdated useless gear?
Just because someone uses something doesnt mean its good. I also see people who doesnt wanna use bondings. That doesnt mean bondings are bad, it means the player is stupid.
In my opinion, the balance between paladin and cleric is not much of a difference at average ilvl. Paladin heals may seems to be better due to its shield which give an extra layer of hp to the group but it has lower heal per second. If u face a fight with a hard hitting boss like Ras'nisi, paladin are gonna have a hard time trying to out heal the damage. Cleric on the other hand specialize in that. With their higher heal per second, hard hitting boss fight are easier for them to out heal. Paladin could use bond of virtue to assist their heal per second but that's only single target. Cleric on the other hand heal in mass aoe at a higher heal per second. That's the strength of cleric.
However, at a BIS level, when paladin has such a high stat that they could easily zero to full someone hp bar with ease and provide a shield on top of the group hp, its for certainly that cleric will be much inferior since cleric high heal magnitude would be unnecessary. Any heal that went past the max hp are to of no use but is considered an overheal. In my opinion, this is more like a design flaw than actual balance. Nerfing heal magnitude are only temporary solution as more and more powerful gear are gonna release into the game, the same problem are gonna resurface again.
From what I see, a much better solution need to be introduced. Maybe a healing system which heal off base on % of hp instead of magnitude. The more hp a person have, the greater the resistance against healing. Outgoing heal and incoming heal are the stat to reduce that resistance. The power will determine the healing percent of the encounter. Healing resistance from hp will be used to offset this. However the end value will be cap by the % hp healing intended by the encounter. For example,
Eg 1.
An encounter that is capable of healing 50% hp is used. The healer has 80k power ( 80% heal power ), the target has 200k hp ( 20% heal resistance ) and outgoing heal is 20%. So 80 - 20 + 20 = 80%. 80% of 50% heals of the encounter is 40% nett heal.
Eg 2.
encounter of 50% healing. Healer power is 130k ( 130% ), target hp is 200k hp ( 20% heal resist ), outgoing heal is 0%. So 130 - 20 +0 = 110%. So 110% of 50% heals of the encounter is 55%. Because it a 50% healing encounter, it is cap at 50%.
Eg 3,
encounter of 50% heal. Healer power is 130k ( 130% ), target hp is 400k (40% heal resist), out going heal is 0%. So 130 - 40 +0 = 90%. So 90% of 50% heal of the encounter is 45%.
Basically, the greater the power, you are capable of healing a higher hp person but u will not heal more than what the encounter is intended for. That will prevent overhealing at BIS level and thus retain cleric position at that level. Its just a rough and simplified idea and it isn't perfect. Maybe some math genius would futher develop this. Anyway the main idea here is to have a system that could be use to maintain the balance no matter how the stat are evolved in the future. All in all, healing need a system that prevent overheal from happening so cleric are not inferior to paladin at BIS level. Nerfing heal magnitude are only a temporary solution.
0
thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
As for the Drowned set... it is the only set in the entire game offering a stated 50% heal based of your total HP and I am seeing players still using it even now. That raises the argument if the theory-crafters in the game must have stumbled on a new benefit from this old set.
There are zero theorycrafters worth their salt who will advocate using the drowned set, it is a bad choice on every level. Let us say you have 300k hp (for arguments sake). Half of that is 150k. 150k/30=roughly 5k hp per second over its full duration. Halve again because its only up for 30 out of 60 seconds and its at 2.5k, thats more or less the same as a level 60 rejuvenation potion. That is minuscule. Furthermore, you are losing 40% of your healing capacity simply due to your choice of weapon, because of the low weapon damage. You would be better off using the green weapons you receive upon reaching level 80.
To any random person reading this thread, do not use the drowned weapons, it is a bad investment.
Comments
Not everyone has leg healing companions and for lower new players or middle tier it makes it more difficult. I notice that people talk about end game but in this game there is more to this them just endgame. The game is filled with players of all levels and of all gear scores.
I understand and respect that you want a challenge. If content is too easy have you tried to create a new character from start to endgame again without using other characters to help gear up your character and not having guild boons.
Now they can afford being a DPS. But they are also forced to care about their stats. They are forced to pay attention to red. They are forced to learn mechanics and do them. And when they dont it sucks for everyone. They can no longer be fully carried by 1 person anymore. Some places u still can to a point. But most groups have to put in some work if they want rewards. Why is that such a bad system ?
I was doing LoMM since day 1, when things had more HP and we had less stats cause of enchantments. My first heals on LoMM i had 110-120k power and same amount of outgoing healing, and i had 0 issues with it.
I had guildies healing on pretty much new toons with 100k power no extra outgoing healing and it was nice and smooth runs.
- Soulforged and Holy enchantments slotted,
- Lathander set, Wandering Orb, plus two other HP-centric artifacts,
- All Radiants in slots and HP armor kits,
- Bulette Pup, Celeste, Phoera, Mystic Phoera, Angel, any augment (summoned).
- Drowned Weapon set.
I have tried to get my hands on a Drowned weapon set just to have that 50% HP passive heal to stay alive for my team, but the drop rates for the Motes of Water are insanely low, and nobody is selling Water Seeker's Wands on the AH any more. (Come on you Neverwintan entrepreneurs, work with us!) There is also an issue where the mount insignia healing bonuses are failing to trigger until after combat has ended. And then there is the companion nerf... where before having a healer companion summoned helped take some pressure off of the party-healer to stay alive... now the companion just stands there like a fence-post and does nothing.
Not good.
When I started playing this game, I almost solely focused on pvp, where your gear is highly important. But, I didn't HAVE the gear to go toe to toe with everyone. I had to really learn what my class was able to do, and think about how I could win despite being at a disadvantage numerically. When the content is difficult, it falls on us to use our brains to think of creative ways to make it work. The more personal accountability we take for failing, the more we can learn and grow as people and as players. Immediately blaming failure on some outside force like "not enough gear" means we don't have to look at ourselves and how we can improve skillwise.
While Neverwinter is a game based on numbers and calculations, those things aren't everything.
Everyone should build some HP and make sure they have enough defense to do die on skills that cant be dodged, like final blow in LoMM.
While soulforged is nice, if u need it, something else is wrong in the party. Holy enchantment heal is very low and doesnt help much of anything. Lathander set is a waste. HP artifacts are nice to have, but there is cheaper ways to boost HP on a healer.
Augments give more stats than an attacking pet, but as a healer u can use attacking pet just fine and still reach needed caps for being a good healer.
Drowned weapon set is the worst possible advice u could ever give anyway. Its a very old set, so the weapon dmg is very low, and that will reduce ur heals by a lot. And the healing from it is horrible, close to the point where its worthless for anyone.
Before mod 16 pets healing was pointless, even cleric heals where pointless. Only healers anyone used was paladin and warlock. And pets did so little compared that u never noticed them and didnt take any pressure of anything.
I can understand why ur having trouble with healing from what ur saying. Ur idea of whats good and bad is no where near reality.
My character Tsin'xing
So far I have no problem healing with 110k power and 42% outgoing heal in Lomm. Its doable. Tong and CR however, the problem lies with end fight. There is no room for u to regen your divinity no matter how efficient u manage your divinity and with all your divinity regen encounter, feat and class feature turned on. The longer the fight last the less divinity u have and ultimately a wipe. Even using health stone are more effective than having a healer to be honest. The heal magnitude and the divinity regen rate are just too low after the patch. With dungeon scaling further reducing it, there is no way u can keep up against the consistent damage your group received especially u are playing with at level group. And that me as a 21k healer. U can imagine that if u are a 16k healer.
So yeah, Tong and CR difficulty are definitely off for a RAQ standard. The developer should consider either toning the difficulty down or reevaluate the heal scaling in RAQ. Especially with the healing nerf patch, it just makes no sense that CR and Tong are more difficulty than Lomm.
If I would be a dev and read through this "my DC has 90k power and zero outgoing and I am at full Divinity all time", all I would pull out of it was:
-> 2. round nerf started, when a class at minimum gear has no isseus running that dungeon.
Maybe the rest of the group was pretty strong in terms of gameplay, can't tell.
I advise some in here to queue random and look for the challenge on their "90k power zero %heal toons"
Lomm looks like this to me as Oathkeeper, where I think the class is still ahead of the others.
My Oathkeeper at 40% outgoing and 130k power 126k crit actually.
1. boss is the most easy one, not that much of a challenge for most healer classes at decent gear
2. boss is challenging , at least the moment you run with a random group that is not perfect in gameplay and maybe in terms of stats too, and there seem to be a lot of groups that actually fail on life after rework.
3. last boss is easier in generel for Oathkeeper, where the 2 other classes tend to fail a lot from my observation.
There are far more critical moments when the tank misses his block etc. from my pov.
I met groups stuck at 2. boss, left by the tank and heal, me queing as random healer.
From dps side I saw sveral DC's with better gear than my pally, who struggled at 2. and 3. boss significant, where the tank died in a row (maybe the tank was simply bad).
The most reliable class stays paladin imo, I am pretty sure new content will not be absolvable without that solid barrier effect lowered for 30% now. Maybe there will be groups capable to absolve tomm with DC/Soulweaver at the end of mod 17, maybe.. maybe not.
There will allways be some very, very few player that reach perfect results with a 300k+ barrier on the group as you can witness in those preview vids, but this is a very, very small minority... maybe like 2 or 3
Not sure if the downgrade was active that time, same as I read somewhere those groups run their chars at up to 30% incoming healing, not sure.
I am very curious about what the general feedback will turn into, the moment the new trial starts for the masses and this hits on top: "Critical Touch may no longer proc when an offensive action such as Valorous Strike is used without a target."
Maybe this will lead to an even smaller ammount of groups capable to absolve those dungeons.
Beside that I think there are a lot of player that pretty much focus on damage exclusively, missing stats like def or awareness same as HP, also due to lower gearlevel, agreed.
But I also saw a lot of tanks running at 300k HP or worse, where your HP (capped def/awarness etc.) is your most important stat to block attacks. I tend to say, a huge number of tanks in this game, esp. concerning random groups, runs an awkward setup.
Stats not adjusted, "sloppy setup" to some degree and I think this is not only caused by low gearlevel same as I think this is one of the core problems.
Same as I met tanks, who were pretty much capable to run though that dungeon nearly without being in need of a healer. I think damagedealer (provided they don't play and build as a jerk) are from minor importance in this discussion.
Yes the drowned set does heal u for 50% of ur HP, but its over 30 sec. That means if u have 300k HP, u will get a 5k heal every sec. That heals is enough to keep u alive for solo play, but that heal is way way to low to do anything for u in dungeons if u keep taking dmg. So what ur saying is, when u stand in red and cause urself to take dmg u could have avoided, ur using drowned set instead of potions because ur not able to heal urself with ur skills ?
Are u sure ur not just dying less because u had no clue how to play at the start of mod 16, and now after some months its slowly starting to sink in ? And it has nothing to do with using old outdated useless gear?
Just because someone uses something doesnt mean its good. I also see people who doesnt wanna use bondings. That doesnt mean bondings are bad, it means the player is stupid.
However, at a BIS level, when paladin has such a high stat that they could easily zero to full someone hp bar with ease and provide a shield on top of the group hp, its for certainly that cleric will be much inferior since cleric high heal magnitude would be unnecessary. Any heal that went past the max hp are to of no use but is considered an overheal. In my opinion, this is more like a design flaw than actual balance. Nerfing heal magnitude are only temporary solution as more and more powerful gear are gonna release into the game, the same problem are gonna resurface again.
From what I see, a much better solution need to be introduced. Maybe a healing system which heal off base on % of hp instead of magnitude. The more hp a person have, the greater the resistance against healing. Outgoing heal and incoming heal are the stat to reduce that resistance. The power will determine the healing percent of the encounter. Healing resistance from hp will be used to offset this. However the end value will be cap by the % hp healing intended by the encounter. For example,
Eg 1.
An encounter that is capable of healing 50% hp is used. The healer has 80k power ( 80% heal power ), the target has 200k hp ( 20% heal resistance ) and outgoing heal is 20%. So 80 - 20 + 20 = 80%. 80% of 50% heals of the encounter is 40% nett heal.
Eg 2.
encounter of 50% healing. Healer power is 130k ( 130% ), target hp is 200k hp ( 20% heal resist ), outgoing heal is 0%. So 130 - 20 +0 = 110%. So 110% of 50% heals of the encounter is 55%. Because it a 50% healing encounter, it is cap at 50%.
Eg 3,
encounter of 50% heal. Healer power is 130k ( 130% ), target hp is 400k (40% heal resist), out going heal is 0%. So 130 - 40 +0 = 90%. So 90% of 50% heal of the encounter is 45%.
Basically, the greater the power, you are capable of healing a higher hp person but u will not heal more than what the encounter is intended for. That will prevent overhealing at BIS level and thus retain cleric position at that level. Its just a rough and simplified idea and it isn't perfect. Maybe some math genius would futher develop this. Anyway the main idea here is to have a system that could be use to maintain the balance no matter how the stat are evolved in the future. All in all, healing need a system that prevent overheal from happening so cleric are not inferior to paladin at BIS level. Nerfing heal magnitude are only a temporary solution.
To any random person reading this thread, do not use the drowned weapons, it is a bad investment.