@mebengalsfan, you can call it a small power loss from companions, and DC has same issues...but ignore that DC gets a 2 off/2 utility, so they are not in same boat. 1 def spot. And saying people need to learn to play? Most are talking about experiences in LOMM or other content. I don't stand at target dummy and ask HR/cw's to stand there and see who hits it harder. I see stamina drain and dps in content. And if your advice on "learning to play" is similar to fighter views, like saying ITF helps make you keep up to faster teammates.....yeah by staying behind so they don't get ITF buff.....brilliant. But not exactly a good fix or solving anything. Yes, power is more valuable if under 100k power...but you're being very general there and acting like a big diminish. At 100k, 2k power is 1%, at 150k 2.5k is 1 %. Saying most are around 150k, we still lose %. At 100k, 4k would be 2%. At 150k, 4k would be 1.6%. To say that isn't enough to matter, then why are people running the kiuno and heels for the 3%, and lose 5k power, and noticing a diff. And that's saying we lose only 4k. Getting stuck with 3 def comps that have 4k/2k stats on the majority of the 68 offered is a joke. I would like to try combo's with siegemaster and others, but we can't. Run a few CODG, and you see it. On most groups, the elevator is not bad, we're involved. By tentacles, we might hit 1-2 out of the 8. On the last 2 phases I go from threatening top dps, to getting crushed by top 2, and usually finish 3rd. I agree that enemies need more life, but if that doesn't happen, we are always going to be slower generating our DPS at the beginning of the fights, at least compared to other classes geared the same.
And that is where part of the issue is; enemies health were reduced by over 30%. Taking that into account I believe that Barbarian, Fighters and Warlocks would all be slightly better at damage dealers if enemies health were not reduced by so much.
As for the companion bonus issue; developers already stated that is something they are aware of it and will resolve once they have the resources to resolve it. It's not like it is being ignored; it is being put on hold until they have the capability to make it happen. That is why I arguing and pointing out the flaws about something already acknowledge is a waste of your and any other barbarian time.
As I point out you need to see where your class fails at producing damage and make recommendations. One thing I keep hearing is about how most Barbarians use Stamina to get to the target and than they have none to avoid an attack later on. Ok, well since speed at the start of combat is a barbarian type of ability I recommend giving the barbarian damage dealer side a 10 second speed boost so you don't burn through stamina getting to your target. That update would resolve one of the issues that many barbarians are talking about.
The other issue I keep hearing about is rage build up and how it takes a while. If enemies had more health I don't think this would be an issue. However, with the current game setup and enemies having low health I believe requesting an increase to this or a modification to something to make it build faster would be worth pursuing. But like encounters cool down and damage; when you increase one side you lower the other side. It is to keep things a bit balanced.
All of the testing to balance these changes out would happen at a sparring target, not in content. Data would be collected and used to update class later if needed if the changes made the class weaker or to strong.
I have no issues with any class being updated, but prior to any class getting a balance pass I rather the devs debug all classes first than do balancing afterwards. That is where I think a few issues with damage exist. Than balancing would be easier.
Prior mods the devs simply tried to balance classes without ever fixing the underling issues that the class had. Warlock, Wizard, Fighter, etc... all had issues in prior mods that were never properly fixed and each time an update to the class happened either the class bug was exploited or the class became so bad players changed over to another class.
The problem I see is that players need to relearn how to play as a Barbarian DPS. Instead of being first in and first out of the fight because you ran ahead and killed everything before anyone else got there now you have to play the way other classes have been playing since the game came out; waiting for the tank to go into the fight and than positioning yourself to get into proper range.
As for the mechanics for each class and its damage potential; this was the first pass to fix the long time issues of class balance. It is a step in the right direction and will take time to fix and balance out the game. IMO though striving for class balance is a waste as balancing occurs at a sparring target and never in content do to variables in content that can alter how a class actually performs.
For instance longer fights Clerics take a damage loss trying to maintain divinity but a warlock will have an easier time with soul sparks. These mechanics are added to each class and IMO we would hear less on the warlock front if enemies health were not adjusted downward as they would have had the time to build the sparks to do more damage and clerics would produce less damage do to maintaining divinity making these two classes closer in damage.
The problem I see with balancing ATM is that the devs have nerfed enemies health and that has made classes less balanced. More health for enemies would have given barbarian, warlock, etc.. extra time to do their fair share in damage.
I don't think your first part of that is really a good point to be stating for all barbarian. The issue isn't that we just need to learn to play better. The issue is that no matter how we play we are outclassed in all ways we play by most classes in the game. The next part is that is the best way to play the most fun way to play the class? I would say that the class and what I see as them trying to make us into an off tank is the reason that we just don't work well. If we are supposed to be this semi tank/semi dps class it just won't work out well for us in the game.
Off tank? That isn't a thing any more. You are a tank, healer or a damage dealer. If you want to state off tank, any healer or damage dealer can be the off tank as long as they have the HP and defensive stats to take the hits. My wizard is the tank when I run with 3 other damage dealers in LoMM as I have the HP & defensive stats to hold my own. So the argument of being the off tank is garbage. The barbarian has two roles tank and damage dealer.
Since this discussion is about the damage dealer side let's talk about that. First I hear about the impact the companion bonus has. As I already pointed out that the barbarian does have a slight power loss, which equates to some damage loss when compared to four of the five other damage dealer classes. The cleric is in the same boat as the barbarian as it also doesn't have 3 offensive companion bonuses. The extra power that is gained is around 4-8K. This can have a marginal impact to overall damage. If you are over 100K power, and most I imagine are at that or well over that, that 4-8K extra power is less impactful than if you had under 100K power.
The bigger issue is getting into melee range and being able to build up rage to get those bigger harder hits. If that is a concern lets talk about adding a slight speed boost to the class at the start of combat for 10 seconds, similar to the Orc speed boost. The other thing is modifying how quickly you get your into rage or whatever its called to get the harder hits. Now with a quicker build up to rage your rage hits will do less damage if you can activate it more often. This is similar to how encounters work with cool downs; if you want faster cool downs your encounters will do less damage.
The one item that I think many players are forgetting is that the each class when balancing was being done was done when enemies had more health. That is why I made my comment that if enemies health were not adjusted to be lower I think the issue between each class wouldn't be as serve as it is now. Do to how enemies health have been lowered it has negatively impacted a few class. I believe the classes that were most negatively impacted are the barbarian, warlock and fighter.
IMO mod 16 class fixes didn't need to happen. What we did need was some adjustments to the game; however, what we got seriously broke the game IMO. It is less fun and engaging now for me as wizard. To me the wizards now are easier to play than previously. The wizard class to me is just as boring right now as a GWF was in mod 15 and other earlier mods. In older mods GWF was stupid easy and boring for me and that is how I'm viewing wizards, rangers, and rogues ATM. The only classes I'm enjoying are the ones that produce less damage and have some type of mechanic you need to use to ensure maximum damage such as the cleric divinity.
I hope the devs can give you want seem to want; to be top damage dealer again because that is what I'm hearing more than a list of items that need to be fixed that can make the class better. I just see complaints and not solutions to the problem. In the future include a solution to the problem so the devs can at least consider it as a probable fix when they decide to tweak the class.
For instance we need to get in range to do our damage please provide the Barbarian Swordmaster a speed boost at the start of combat for 10 seconds. It takes a while to build up rage, please double how fast rage builds up and to counter how often we get rage please reduce the damage of our attacks to offset the quicker build up of rage.
What may help also is that there are unresolved code issues with other classes allowing them to be stronger than they are; if those get fixed that may help balancing out as well.
As for balancing please keep in mind it is done at a sparring target and when you run content when you see at a sparring target may not be what actually happens in a dungeon do to variables.
I agree with you on the health of minions at the start of Mod 16 being much higher causing a lot of the issues. The problem is that during preview the fights with 1 set of minions was between 30 seconds and 2 minutes. Nobody will get to where the veterans are at in game if the fights for these minions take that long. Who wants to do an hour long dread ring lairs, or 1 hour for the blizzard quest in SKT, or 2 hours to do CN. The rhetorical on that is nobody wants to have combat last that long unless you never have to do old content again. This high amount of HP caused classes that had long wined up times to do a lot more damage.
In regards to where dps classes are at the difference between the 3 pure dps classes and 4 multi path classes is big. At end game BiS builds for all classes, the multi path classes are about 25% to 40% lower in damage. The damage differences needs to get closer to about 3% from the best class to worst class to make class requests for really hard content like ToMM not be limited. This can be helped for the barb which is in the bottom tier of dps classes by fixing some of the above. Remember, they have to increase the damage by about 25% to make them comparable so any of this if you attack faster you need to do less damage isn't an issue since the idea of increasing mobility/rage/buffs is to improve the classes damage to be closer to the top tier classes. If not improving the damage of the bottom tier classes then the only other method to balance the classes is to nerf classes like the Wizard/Rogue/Ranger which I think more players will have issue with.
The idea isn't that I want Barb to be the best damage dealer. The idea is for all of the dps classes to be as close to even as possible at end game so players don't have an incentive to tell another player to go away because their class just doesn't do well in queued group content. It's much more fun for me when all classes are viable in end game than just 1 or a few classes because I like to say "I will fill roles" at the start of the queue group to allow other players to play the class they want to play. When balance is good I also don't have to have those awkward conversations to settle disputes of players due to imbalance as well as it stops this genocide of players leaving the game because their favorite class doesn't perform well.
Guild Leader: Under the Influence Yule (Barb): 72k : Siren (TR): 78k : Torun (DC): 73k : Siren OP (OP): 76k : Siren SW (SW): 78k : Modern (F): 80k : Cherry1 (CW) : 68k Siren HR (HR): 78k
@mebengalsfan, you can call it a small power loss from companions, and DC has same issues...but ignore that DC gets a 2 off/2 utility, so they are not in same boat. 1 def spot. And saying people need to learn to play? Most are talking about experiences in LOMM or other content. I don't stand at target dummy and ask HR/cw's to stand there and see who hits it harder. I see stamina drain and dps in content. And if your advice on "learning to play" is similar to fighter views, like saying ITF helps make you keep up to faster teammates.....yeah by staying behind so they don't get ITF buff.....brilliant. But not exactly a good fix or solving anything. Yes, power is more valuable if under 100k power...but you're being very general there and acting like a big diminish. At 100k, 2k power is 1%, at 150k 2.5k is 1 %. Saying most are around 150k, we still lose %. At 100k, 4k would be 2%. At 150k, 4k would be 1.6%. To say that isn't enough to matter, then why are people running the kiuno and heels for the 3%, and lose 5k power, and noticing a diff. And that's saying we lose only 4k. Getting stuck with 3 def comps that have 4k/2k stats on the majority of the 68 offered is a joke. I would like to try combo's with siegemaster and others, but we can't. Run a few CODG, and you see it. On most groups, the elevator is not bad, we're involved. By tentacles, we might hit 1-2 out of the 8. On the last 2 phases I go from threatening top dps, to getting crushed by top 2, and usually finish 3rd. I agree that enemies need more life, but if that doesn't happen, we are always going to be slower generating our DPS at the beginning of the fights, at least compared to other classes geared the same.
And that is where part of the issue is; enemies health were reduced by over 30%. Taking that into account I believe that Barbarian, Fighters and Warlocks would all be slightly better at damage dealers if enemies health were not reduced by so much.
As for the companion bonus issue; developers already stated that is something they are aware of it and will resolve once they have the resources to resolve it. It's not like it is being ignored; it is being put on hold until they have the capability to make it happen. That is why I arguing and pointing out the flaws about something already acknowledge is a waste of your and any other barbarian time.
As I point out you need to see where your class fails at producing damage and make recommendations. One thing I keep hearing is about how most Barbarians use Stamina to get to the target and than they have none to avoid an attack later on. Ok, well since speed at the start of combat is a barbarian type of ability I recommend giving the barbarian damage dealer side a 10 second speed boost so you don't burn through stamina getting to your target. That update would resolve one of the issues that many barbarians are talking about.
The other issue I keep hearing about is rage build up and how it takes a while. If enemies had more health I don't think this would be an issue. However, with the current game setup and enemies having low health I believe requesting an increase to this or a modification to something to make it build faster would be worth pursuing. But like encounters cool down and damage; when you increase one side you lower the other side. It is to keep things a bit balanced.
All of the testing to balance these changes out would happen at a sparring target, not in content. Data would be collected and used to update class later if needed if the changes made the class weaker or to strong.
I have no issues with any class being updated, but prior to any class getting a balance pass I rather the devs debug all classes first than do balancing afterwards. That is where I think a few issues with damage exist. Than balancing would be easier.
Prior mods the devs simply tried to balance classes without ever fixing the underling issues that the class had. Warlock, Wizard, Fighter, etc... all had issues in prior mods that were never properly fixed and each time an update to the class happened either the class bug was exploited or the class became so bad players changed over to another class.
You bounce all over the place and give no answers, and ignore most. As you point out....There are recommendations throughout the thread. Maybe read a few. There's issues that need fixed, most can agree, even if you can't. The rage builds slow, and they give a feat to help increase, but drop unstoppable damage from 15% to 10%. Adding life to enemies would help some, but wont solve a broken rage system. The feats are a joke, only 4 encounters work with the 10 options. And the comps, well you said it's not a big deal...then dev's are working on it, so why complain. What happened to being minimal or DC's having same issue...oh that's right they get 4 off/utility too. When you called out, you say devs have acknowleged so why complain.... I'm done here, you can continue to write essays and try and twist it.
Trample the fallen, Raging Strikes and Battlerage "bonus damage" are bugged. They are added to crit sev. and CA damage. No wonder why this class is F*** up, the "best features" we have are bugged.
Trample the fallen, Raging Strikes and Battlerage "bonus damage" are bugged. They are added to crit sev. and CA damage. No wonder why this class is F*** up, the "best features" we have are bugged.
Ok and where is the proof of that? I haven't heard anything about it before. ACT log ?
Trample the fallen, Raging Strikes and Battlerage "bonus damage" are bugged. They are added to crit sev. and CA damage. No wonder why this class is F*** up, the "best features" we have are bugged.
Ok and where is the proof of that? I haven't heard anything about it before. ACT log ?
You bounce all over the place and give no answers, and ignore most. As you point out....There are recommendations throughout the thread. Maybe read a few. There's issues that need fixed, most can agree, even if you can't. The rage builds slow, and they give a feat to help increase, but drop unstoppable damage from 15% to 10%. Adding life to enemies would help some, but wont solve a broken rage system. The feats are a joke, only 4 encounters work with the 10 options. And the comps, well you said it's not a big deal...then dev's are working on it, so why complain. What happened to being minimal or DC's having same issue...oh that's right they get 4 off/utility too. When you called out, you say devs have acknowleged so why complain.... I'm done here, you can continue to write essays and try and twist it.
The best long term solution for this game and balancing is first debugging all classes. I read the post on the issues with the Barbarian. Glad to see these were discovered and hopefully the devs can resolve them before mod 18.
I hope other players testing the game out continue to help debug each class to a point where no bugs exist. Than from that point the devs can start to balance out classes to be more inline with each other. Until that time the best thing to do is continue to find areas where the class can improve upon. This would give the devs a nice list of item to adjust/modify to improve the class if its needed.
The best long term solution for this game and balancing is first debugging all classes. I read the post on the issues with the Barbarian. Glad to see these were discovered and hopefully the devs can resolve them before mod 18.
I joked about it for a little bit on the Barbie discord after checking the GF rumors.
Someone from the Barbie discord brought me back from Fodlan when they mentioned that everything seemed to be bugged except for the Relentless Slash buff, which was the same pattern as the GF bug (everything but Heavy Slash was bugged).
Until that time the best thing to do is continue to find areas where the class can improve upon. This would give the devs a nice list of item to adjust/modify to improve the class if its needed.
I hear that was also tried in the Mod 16 QA Expense Saving Preview build, except that feedback was "heard" but never acted upon.
I can point to Viral's feedback on Ranger, Edgelord on the beta version of Fireball, Janne on TR, and pretty much everyone on scaling.
I also heard that was tried when Mod 16's preview went public and as well as after Mod 16's launch (*coughcoughwarlockcoughcough*).
As before, feedback was "heard" but barely implemented (with the exception of Fireball, since enough Wizards qq'd about it).
... you know, what? I'm beginning to think it would be easier, and healthier for everbody, adapt Bladmaster to be a (offensive) tank as well. more than that, maybe this game should have tanks/healers and buffers-debuffers. never dps. solo pve will be more easy (adapted to the new reality of damage), the damage of partys will be more balanced because buffers/debuffers will garantee a good but secundary damage for everyone, but still needing a defender that need a healer...
... dont looks simple to me. the gap between dps classes is something that never get fixed. for now what we know is, bladmasters already dont leads in any offensive category and already have more defensive slots, what we dont have is... extra hp, extra threat and a block. maybe a 10% of damage reduction for tanks and a tab change is enough to created a difference between a offensive tank and a dps.
the other thing is... despites the rage gain, the new unstoppable looks much more natural and a truly tab power because take the strongest defensive mechanic of the class and improve that.
battle rage is the opossite; offensively is outdated, improving, unsatisfactorily, the weakest damage mechanic - atwills - for a dps class today. defensively is the worst version of this tab mechanic in the history of this game.
... this transition looks to me a win-win for devs, main players, and haters.
well... ignoring rangers - not sure how good or bad this class perform now. the others dps classes with a alternative role are in the "same" boat... and for what i ready, they dont have enough to do the new content satisfactorily. Anyway, the point is, bladmasters dont overperform in some area like conquerers in the past. That should be a problem if happens, but already dont happen.
On the top, fixed or not, battle rage will still looks... crippled . Dont getme wrong, by nature of this game/class, any other deserve more a solid dps patch than a gwf. But... well... i dont see a good perspective for any other dual-dps class. If you have one single exception.. but dont. That say much about that.
@asterdahl@terramak@nitocris83@mimicking#6533 Alot of people made valid points here. This is my 2 cents: 1. We need more Offense companion slots 2. Our AOE at will, Relentless slash does more dmg than Sure Strike on single target. 3. Trample of the Fallen has 2 parts. The 1st part with 5% buff works, but the 2nd part with 10% dmg doesn't work on bosses because they are control immune. Wizards have a feat giving them more dmg vs control immune targets... No wonder we cant compete in single target dps. 4. When Battlerage runs out, we don't have anything like in pre mod16 buffing our dmg out of determination.
There are alot wrong with Barbies, not being able to complete the new trial as a DPS class will probably be the feedback we need to get back on track. I dont mind not being the top dps class anymore, but make us competitive at least. Clearly the feedback given during Beta testing mod16 was better for Wizards than Barbarians.
Not sure if this is the correct forum for my comments, but I cannot find any other thread.
I loved playing my GWF. I am learning to play my barbarian, warts and all. But I cannot survive the last blast of Trobriand in LoMM. When I read the log after the fight, it says I took over 300k Unavoidable Damage, while the other members of my party take 220K or so Unavoidable Damage. I have put the hit point boon on, and the blast blows right through the hit points (over 310K). I put on the Defense boon and was immediately defeated. I tried standing behind the fighter with his shield in front of me, and was defeated. I joked that it felt like the game took my hitpoints, then added 5000 to the damage blast to make sure I died. Why is the barbarian targeted with such a bit hit from Trobriand? Any suggestions?
While there is a bug here, no one on this thread is going to like that it is the reverse of what is being called out.
Multiplicative buff stacking was a big problem for Neverwinter and is what would cause a normal geared group to do a boss over minutes, and a group that knew how to min max all of the stacking buffs to complete a boss in seconds.
We had made the decision in M16 to switch the buffs over to additive instead of multiplicative to keep power creep in a better place to allow content to be designed better for both elite and standard groups.
Throughout the handover of classes as staff changes occurred, this adjustment was missed for the Ranger, Warlock, Wizard, and Rogue. They are actually the classes in error here and the ones that will need to have their buffs adjusted.
I realize that the players in this thread understand the significant difference between the two methods (which is exactly why you did tests and brought this up), but for those who have not delved as far into the math:
If a player has 10 buffs that each increase the damage 10%, there are two main ways to do this. The first is to add up all of the buffs together and then multiply by the base. If the player's base damage was 1000, then the end result would be 2000 damage as it would be a total of 10 x 10% = 100%.
The second method is to multiply each bonus on top of the previous bonus. In the past this was how most damage boosts worked, and it was also the one of the biggest source of problems of having so many stacking sources that players could even potentially 1 or 2 shot endgame bosses. With the same number of bonuses as the above example, instead of ending at 2000 damage you'd end up at ~2600 damage, or in this particular case 30% more damage than the other method.
Now that might not look like much at a small scale, but let's compare bigger effects. Let's look at if in the examples above instead each boost was 20%.
Additive = 3000 damage Multiplicative = ~6200 damage - so now the multiplicative approach is over double the value of the additive.
The bigger the value of the bonuses and the more of them that there are, the bigger the gap between the two methods. Additive provides a much more linear approach that works better for the long term health and balance of the game.
long story short... extra 200/250 magnituded for encounter when used during battle rage or two tanks paths? (being one more offensive?)
I'm surprise no one has brought up that the developers should create range based damage. Melee, mid range and long range. This way if a player is within melee range they have higher damage potential, if the player is within mid range they produce a bit less damage and finally long range damage takes a pretty big hit in the total damage an ability can produce when a player uses it at or near maximum range.
This idea would help balance the game out a bit as players that tend to stay away from the target and at a further range takes a small damage penalty but as the range decrease their damage goes up do to higher risk. This is a risk based approach to damage, meaning higher risk (closer to the boss/enemy) more damage with longer range attacks producing less damage.
This is a just a thought on what may help balance out some of the classes.
@asterdahl@terramak@nitocris83@mimicking#6533 Alot of people made valid points here. This is my 2 cents: 1. We need more Offense companion slots 2. Our AOE at will, Relentless slash does more dmg than Sure Strike on single target. 3. Trample of the Fallen has 2 parts. The 1st part with 5% buff works, but the 2nd part with 10% dmg doesn't work on bosses because they are control immune. Wizards have a feat giving them more dmg vs control immune targets... No wonder we cant compete in single target dps. 4. When Battlerage runs out, we don't have anything like in pre mod16 buffing our dmg out of determination.
There are alot wrong with Barbies, not being able to complete the new trial as a DPS class will probably be the feedback we need to get back on track. I dont mind not being the top dps class anymore, but make us competitive at least. Clearly the feedback given during Beta testing mod16 was better for Wizards than Barbarians.
After another week or 2, they'll say some changes are coming in mod 18. Still no response on the bug report.
I'm surprise no one has brought up that the developers should create range based damage. Melee, mid range and long range. This way if a player is within melee range they have higher damage potential, if the player is within mid range they produce a bit less damage and finally long range damage takes a pretty big hit in the total damage an ability can produce when a player uses it at or near maximum range.
1 - doing more or less, range will still a option for a non melee class.
2 - the point is how long you get attached to the enemie to use your melee arsenal. take close, use a encounter A of fast cast and leave your position after 0.5 sec is enough. For atwills sounds fair, but atwill is not a issue anymore.
3 - but yes, over the top maybe some bonus can be losted based in your range. basic mechanics (acurracy/critical chance) or class mechanics. of course some ranger power will ignore that through feats/class features.
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johnjohniiiMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 108Arc User
wms (or whatever it's called now) is the only attack you should be using for aoe or single target, bounding to help close the distance, not so fast, ibs, bloodletter, the slow bonus damage class feature, the bonus crit feature, the feat to proc not so fast, the bloodletter feat, but mainly the feat that reduces damage of rage to %10 but doubles the rate in which we get rage. done. we'll be fine. we're not the best dps but we can still carry our own. we just need to learn to dodge. can't stay in the red all the time anymore. we must improve our skill in playing. if i'm going against another equally geared person i may loose but not by much and i'm still contributing a ton. we're not bis for dps but it's not a wide margin.
While there is a bug here, no one on this thread is going to like that it is the reverse of what is being called out.
Multiplicative buff stacking was a big problem for Neverwinter and is what would cause a normal geared group to do a boss over minutes, and a group that knew how to min max all of the stacking buffs to complete a boss in seconds.
We had made the decision in M16 to switch the buffs over to additive instead of multiplicative to keep power creep in a better place to allow content to be designed better for both elite and standard groups.
Throughout the handover of classes as staff changes occurred, this adjustment was missed for the Ranger, Warlock, Wizard, and Rogue. They are actually the classes in error here and the ones that will need to have their buffs adjusted.
I realize that the players in this thread understand the significant difference between the two methods (which is exactly why you did tests and brought this up), but for those who have not delved as far into the math:
If a player has 10 buffs that each increase the damage 10%, there are two main ways to do this. The first is to add up all of the buffs together and then multiply by the base. If the player's base damage was 1000, then the end result would be 2000 damage as it would be a total of 10 x 10% = 100%.
The second method is to multiply each bonus on top of the previous bonus. In the past this was how most damage boosts worked, and it was also the one of the biggest source of problems of having so many stacking sources that players could even potentially 1 or 2 shot endgame bosses. With the same number of bonuses as the above example, instead of ending at 2000 damage you'd end up at ~2600 damage, or in this particular case 30% more damage than the other method.
Now that might not look like much at a small scale, but let's compare bigger effects. Let's look at if in the examples above instead each boost was 20%.
Additive = 3000 damage Multiplicative = ~6200 damage - so now the multiplicative approach is over double the value of the additive.
The bigger the value of the bonuses and the more of them that there are, the bigger the gap between the two methods. Additive provides a much more linear approach that works better for the long term health and balance of the game.
long story short... extra 200/250 magnituded for encounter when used during battle rage or two tanks paths? (being one more offensive?)
What this tells me given the dev response is that some classes are bugged and still doing the wrong type of buff. Once those are fixed than they can collect more data before balancing the classes. Unless the above was stated before any fixes were implemented to the other classes. If the other classes are still not working as intended than they do need to be fixed.
... nop, because they sayed that broken classes dont will be fixed (another topic)... in other words, who is broken will still broken and for who is not broken they will find "another way". to be honest, i dont understood too.
but because of that iam asking to have the same dps as today, but having the advantages to be a tank (yep, now i agree with you about barbarians defenders but by other reasons). if that happens, when that damage HAMSTER become a snowball, we will still have two competitive paragons (both tanks, be a dps in this game is a nightmare.)
Only a subjective impression from a "Non Barbarian" player and not ment as offence to anyone same as it only feedbacks the tank role of the class. From all those tanking classes I run, Barbarian tank seem to be the most reliable tank in my random runs in the sum. They do have issues with aggro time to time, true, but where a Paladin or GF drops dead in short, the Barbarian soaks up a lot. Might be players skill, might be be due to his build. But running lomm repeatedly 100's times, the most relaxing fights were beside a Barbarian tank from healers sight. Where I needed to heal that Paladin almost every 3 seconds to full HP since he lost all his Divinity or simply forgot to block, maybe also due to poor gameplay, I have an easy time when that Barbarian tanks. I have not the slightes clue why, but that`s my subjective preception out of many runs.
* beside that it looks like most Barbarians left this game, same as warlock, regarding the last dates in this forum clapp clapp cryptic
"From all those tanking classes I run, Barbarian tank seem to be the most reliable tank in my random runs in the sum. They do have issues with aggro time to time, true, but where a Paladin or GF drops dead in short, the Barbarian soaks up a lot. Might be players skill, might be be due to his build."
believe or not, the main problem, against bosses, to barbarians lose your aggro is be healed instead to generete threat by healing yourself.
challengers charge sometimes dont work (or dont work against two enemies in the same time, like the last boss+scorpion) and CGI... something need be worked here.
"Where I needed to heal that Paladin almost every 3 seconds to full HP since he lost all his Divinity or simply forgot to block, maybe also due to poor gameplay, I have an easy time when that Barbarian tanks."
primal fury feated can healing a lot, so you can choose take small damages - healing yourself using restoring strike - and block the big ones. when you block the big ones, you loose your shield and then primal fury come to heal you too (full 600 magnitude damage back as heal too).
"For AoE, your only option is to use Challenger's Charge, but make sure you use Come and Get it before, "
i will try that. bosses is not a problem (ignoring scorpions sometimes) but groups during a dungeon...
offensive is ok too... or we have a lot of bad dps in the game... i have no idea.
"also if the Draw in effect would be stronger that would be nice."
i feel that is the main problem... should work like... i dont remember the name, a thau daily. 16.5 cooldown for a aggro encounter that need a secundary power to work... at least put a real control here.
Comments
As for the companion bonus issue; developers already stated that is something they are aware of it and will resolve once they have the resources to resolve it. It's not like it is being ignored; it is being put on hold until they have the capability to make it happen. That is why I arguing and pointing out the flaws about something already acknowledge is a waste of your and any other barbarian time.
As I point out you need to see where your class fails at producing damage and make recommendations. One thing I keep hearing is about how most Barbarians use Stamina to get to the target and than they have none to avoid an attack later on. Ok, well since speed at the start of combat is a barbarian type of ability I recommend giving the barbarian damage dealer side a 10 second speed boost so you don't burn through stamina getting to your target. That update would resolve one of the issues that many barbarians are talking about.
The other issue I keep hearing about is rage build up and how it takes a while. If enemies had more health I don't think this would be an issue. However, with the current game setup and enemies having low health I believe requesting an increase to this or a modification to something to make it build faster would be worth pursuing. But like encounters cool down and damage; when you increase one side you lower the other side. It is to keep things a bit balanced.
All of the testing to balance these changes out would happen at a sparring target, not in content. Data would be collected and used to update class later if needed if the changes made the class weaker or to strong.
I have no issues with any class being updated, but prior to any class getting a balance pass I rather the devs debug all classes first than do balancing afterwards. That is where I think a few issues with damage exist. Than balancing would be easier.
Prior mods the devs simply tried to balance classes without ever fixing the underling issues that the class had. Warlock, Wizard, Fighter, etc... all had issues in prior mods that were never properly fixed and each time an update to the class happened either the class bug was exploited or the class became so bad players changed over to another class.
In regards to where dps classes are at the difference between the 3 pure dps classes and 4 multi path classes is big. At end game BiS builds for all classes, the multi path classes are about 25% to 40% lower in damage. The damage differences needs to get closer to about 3% from the best class to worst class to make class requests for really hard content like ToMM not be limited. This can be helped for the barb which is in the bottom tier of dps classes by fixing some of the above. Remember, they have to increase the damage by about 25% to make them comparable so any of this if you attack faster you need to do less damage isn't an issue since the idea of increasing mobility/rage/buffs is to improve the classes damage to be closer to the top tier classes. If not improving the damage of the bottom tier classes then the only other method to balance the classes is to nerf classes like the Wizard/Rogue/Ranger which I think more players will have issue with.
The idea isn't that I want Barb to be the best damage dealer. The idea is for all of the dps classes to be as close to even as possible at end game so players don't have an incentive to tell another player to go away because their class just doesn't do well in queued group content. It's much more fun for me when all classes are viable in end game than just 1 or a few classes because I like to say "I will fill roles" at the start of the queue group to allow other players to play the class they want to play. When balance is good I also don't have to have those awkward conversations to settle disputes of players due to imbalance as well as it stops this genocide of players leaving the game because their favorite class doesn't perform well.
Yule (Barb): 72k : Siren (TR): 78k : Torun (DC): 73k : Siren OP (OP): 76k : Siren SW (SW): 78k : Modern (F): 80k : Cherry1 (CW) : 68k Siren HR (HR): 78k
I'm done here, you can continue to write essays and try and twist it.
No wonder why this class is F*** up, the "best features" we have are bugged.
https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1250926/barbarian-damage-bonuses-bugged
I hope other players testing the game out continue to help debug each class to a point where no bugs exist. Than from that point the devs can start to balance out classes to be more inline with each other. Until that time the best thing to do is continue to find areas where the class can improve upon. This would give the devs a nice list of item to adjust/modify to improve the class if its needed.
Someone from the Barbie discord brought me back from Fodlan when they mentioned that everything seemed to be bugged except for the Relentless Slash buff, which was the same pattern as the GF bug (everything but Heavy Slash was bugged). I hear that was tried in Mod 16.
Too bad that the email misspelled "lowering our QA expense in exchange for previewing Mod 16" as "beta testing". I hear that was also tried in the Mod 16 QA Expense Saving Preview build, except that feedback was "heard" but never acted upon.
I can point to Viral's feedback on Ranger, Edgelord on the beta version of Fireball, Janne on TR, and pretty much everyone on scaling.
I also heard that was tried when Mod 16's preview went public and as well as after Mod 16's launch (*coughcoughwarlockcoughcough*).
As before, feedback was "heard" but barely implemented (with the exception of Fireball, since enough Wizards qq'd about it).
the other thing is... despites the rage gain, the new unstoppable looks much more natural and a truly tab power because take the strongest defensive mechanic of the class and improve that.
battle rage is the opossite; offensively is outdated, improving, unsatisfactorily, the weakest damage mechanic - atwills - for a dps class today. defensively is the worst version of this tab mechanic in the history of this game.
... this transition looks to me a win-win for devs, main players, and haters.
well... ignoring rangers - not sure how good or bad this class perform now. the others dps classes with a alternative role are in the "same" boat... and for what i ready, they dont have enough to do the new content satisfactorily. Anyway, the point is, bladmasters dont overperform in some area like conquerers in the past. That should be a problem if happens, but already dont happen.
On the top, fixed or not, battle rage will still looks... crippled
.
Dont getme wrong, by nature of this game/class, any other deserve more a solid dps patch than a gwf. But... well... i dont see a good perspective for any other dual-dps class. If you have one single exception.. but dont. That say much about that.
1. We need more Offense companion slots
2. Our AOE at will, Relentless slash does more dmg than Sure Strike on single target.
3. Trample of the Fallen has 2 parts. The 1st part with 5% buff works, but the 2nd part with 10% dmg doesn't work on bosses because they are control immune. Wizards have a feat giving them more dmg vs control immune targets... No wonder we cant compete in single target dps.
4. When Battlerage runs out, we don't have anything like in pre mod16 buffing our dmg out of determination.
There are alot wrong with Barbies, not being able to complete the new trial as a DPS class will probably be the feedback we need to get back on track. I dont mind not being the top dps class anymore, but make us competitive at least. Clearly the feedback given during Beta testing mod16 was better for Wizards than Barbarians.
I loved playing my GWF. I am learning to play my barbarian, warts and all. But I cannot survive the last blast of Trobriand in LoMM. When I read the log after the fight, it says I took over 300k Unavoidable Damage, while the other members of my party take 220K or so Unavoidable Damage. I have put the hit point boon on, and the blast blows right through the hit points (over 310K). I put on the Defense boon and was immediately defeated. I tried standing behind the fighter with his shield in front of me, and was defeated. I joked that it felt like the game took my hitpoints, then added 5000 to the damage blast to make sure I died. Why is the barbarian targeted with such a bit hit from Trobriand? Any suggestions?
While there is a bug here, no one on this thread is going to like that it is the reverse of what is being called out.
Multiplicative buff stacking was a big problem for Neverwinter and is what would cause a normal geared group to do a boss over minutes, and a group that knew how to min max all of the stacking buffs to complete a boss in seconds.
We had made the decision in M16 to switch the buffs over to additive instead of multiplicative to keep power creep in a better place to allow content to be designed better for both elite and standard groups.
Throughout the handover of classes as staff changes occurred, this adjustment was missed for the Ranger, Warlock, Wizard, and Rogue. They are actually the classes in error here and the ones that will need to have their buffs adjusted.
I realize that the players in this thread understand the significant difference between the two methods (which is exactly why you did tests and brought this up), but for those who have not delved as far into the math:
If a player has 10 buffs that each increase the damage 10%, there are two main ways to do this. The first is to add up all of the buffs together and then multiply by the base. If the player's base damage was 1000, then the end result would be 2000 damage as it would be a total of 10 x 10% = 100%.
The second method is to multiply each bonus on top of the previous bonus. In the past this was how most damage boosts worked, and it was also the one of the biggest source of problems of having so many stacking sources that players could even potentially 1 or 2 shot endgame bosses. With the same number of bonuses as the above example, instead of ending at 2000 damage you'd end up at ~2600 damage, or in this particular case 30% more damage than the other method.
Now that might not look like much at a small scale, but let's compare bigger effects. Let's look at if in the examples above instead each boost was 20%.
Additive = 3000 damage
Multiplicative = ~6200 damage - so now the multiplicative approach is over double the value of the additive.
The bigger the value of the bonuses and the more of them that there are, the bigger the gap between the two methods. Additive provides a much more linear approach that works better for the long term health and balance of the game.
long story short... extra 200/250 magnituded for encounter when used during battle rage or two tanks paths? (being one more offensive?)
This idea would help balance the game out a bit as players that tend to stay away from the target and at a further range takes a small damage penalty but as the range decrease their damage goes up do to higher risk. This is a risk based approach to damage, meaning higher risk (closer to the boss/enemy) more damage with longer range attacks producing less damage.
This is a just a thought on what may help balance out some of the classes.
2 - the point is how long you get attached to the enemie to use your melee arsenal. take close, use a encounter A of fast cast and leave your position after 0.5 sec is enough. For atwills sounds fair, but atwill is not a issue anymore.
3 - but yes, over the top maybe some bonus can be losted based in your range. basic mechanics (acurracy/critical chance) or class mechanics. of course some ranger power will ignore that through feats/class features.
but because of that iam asking to have the same dps as today, but having the advantages to be a tank (yep, now i agree with you about barbarians defenders but by other reasons). if that happens, when that damage HAMSTER become a snowball, we will still have two competitive paragons (both tanks, be a dps in this game is a nightmare.)
From all those tanking classes I run, Barbarian tank seem to be the most reliable tank in my random runs in the sum. They do have issues with aggro time to time, true, but where a Paladin or GF drops dead in short, the Barbarian soaks up a lot. Might be players skill, might be be due to his build.
But running lomm repeatedly 100's times, the most relaxing fights were beside a Barbarian tank from healers sight.
Where I needed to heal that Paladin almost every 3 seconds to full HP since he lost all his Divinity or simply forgot to block, maybe also due to poor gameplay, I have an easy time when that Barbarian tanks.
I have not the slightes clue why, but that`s my subjective preception out of many runs.
* beside that it looks like most Barbarians left this game, same as warlock, regarding the last dates in this forum
clapp clapp cryptic
believe or not, the main problem, against bosses, to barbarians lose your aggro is be healed instead to generete threat by healing yourself.
challengers charge sometimes dont work (or dont work against two enemies in the same time, like the last boss+scorpion) and CGI... something need be worked here.
"Where I needed to heal that Paladin almost every 3 seconds to full HP since he lost all his Divinity or simply forgot to block, maybe also due to poor gameplay, I have an easy time when that Barbarian tanks."
primal fury feated can healing a lot, so you can choose take small damages - healing yourself using restoring strike - and block the big ones. when you block the big ones, you loose your shield and then primal fury come to heal you too (full 600 magnitude damage back as heal too).
i will try that. bosses is not a problem (ignoring scorpions sometimes) but groups during a dungeon...
offensive is ok too... or we have a lot of bad dps in the game... i have no idea.
"also if the Draw in effect would be stronger that would be nice."
i feel that is the main problem... should work like... i dont remember the name, a thau daily. 16.5 cooldown for a aggro encounter that need a secundary power to work... at least put a real control here.