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paladin is too high DPS
pariswinters
Member Posts: 858 Arc User
Since its been a few months now of module 16 I've ran quite a few dungeons.
From my experience whenever there is a paladin tank in the party they tend to outdps at least 2 of the dps in the team, while a Fighter tank is always dead last.
Paladin healer deals far more damage then cleric healer also, and probably about the same as the warlock healer.
doing epic trials paladin tanks tend to always end up on the paingiver chart, even though there are 5-7 dps in the group.
I feel that the class needs to be looked at again and rebalanced, focusing more on controlling aggro and not dying and less on being a dps machine that has a shield and 2-3x the max HP of every other role.
From my experience whenever there is a paladin tank in the party they tend to outdps at least 2 of the dps in the team, while a Fighter tank is always dead last.
Paladin healer deals far more damage then cleric healer also, and probably about the same as the warlock healer.
doing epic trials paladin tanks tend to always end up on the paingiver chart, even though there are 5-7 dps in the group.
I feel that the class needs to be looked at again and rebalanced, focusing more on controlling aggro and not dying and less on being a dps machine that has a shield and 2-3x the max HP of every other role.
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paladins do not out dps an actual dps. if by paingiver chart, you mean threat level, the little bar that changes color from green to red as it fills up, thats THREAT LEVEL. it doesnt just go off damage. TANKS generate threat. its to keep mobs going after them instead of the more squishy dps characters that are doing the most damage.
tank mode, hardly does any damage. heal mode, they could give a dps a run for their money but still not be as good damage-wise, but they would have no heals.
Neither tanks can actually compete with equally geared and well played DPS class. But i have beaten many lesser geared dps classes on my tanks. But also bear in mind, cryptic have said they want tanks to do 70% of a dps classes dmg. (think it was here on forums in a thread, dont have link sorry).
But also remember each dungeon only have x amount of dmg needed to be done, so who ever gets to the mobs first, have good AoE will get a good lead on the adds in all dungeons. And tanks now do have a base 10% movement speed, so often they are the first ones there. And since mobs have become a much bigger part of the total % of dmg needed to be done in dungeons now (compared to before mod 16), tanks will have it easier to compete.
My fighter and paladin tank are mostly equally geared on stats. The fighter have lower magnitude dmg, but doesnt need divnity, so overall they are very close in dmg, and both of them have beaten lesser geared dps classes.
The paladin dmg vs cleric dmg depends on their setups. Ive seen a lot of clerics not use any dmg besides atwills. Encounters and dailies are all heals. But on the paladin u only really have 1 heal thats worth using. And because of the paladin giving shields with their heals they have to spend less divinity on heals than a cleric does. This gives them both extra encounter slots and dailies for dmg. It gives them more time to do atwills. And they can spend some divinity on dps too. On my cleric i can do some pretty good dmg on adds (daunting light), but on bosses i only use that for debuff every 20 sec ish, all other divinity i save for healing.
Warlock have heal encounters that also does dmg at the same time. They have to do dmg to build sparks so they can heal. The warlock healer should be doing more dmg than both the other healers.
I havnt had any problem with agro on either of my tanks. 200k power dps's have tried to steal it, but failed. Paladin have better AoE threat mechanics. Fighter have better single target threat mechanics. But both can do both things very well. For the tanks to not die they do need good defensive stats, and be healed by the healer. And yes any tank can get a lot of HP. Ive seen many tanks of any class with 600k+ HP. They are tanks after all, so building into HP is normal. But i have tanked LoMM with 370k HP as both paladin and fighter. U can do it, just less room for mistakes, and u have to use ur shield more and pay more attention to the little animations of some bosses. And ofc u need a decent healer.
Nothing new here, is an mmo you see everything from best to worst. Stop mixing things and thinking paladin is the problem. I assume you arent new to the game but with this kind of posts it seems that every dps you play with are very bad.
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It's well known that DPS players have a nasty habit to get themselves into a DPS race against other DPS players at all cost (even a party wipe) for their own egoistic reasons.
Thing is (especially ranged DPS) that they start to DPS before tank gets there to collect the aggro he/she need for a 100% controlled fight.
By doing that they get instantly a 10% base aggro for the first one who is doing DPS to these mobs, which means that tank must pull all his registers open (and burn trough his divinity) to gather aggro and hope he can keep it up.
In those case he is forced to use heavy DPS powers (at the cost of divinity)
Simple solution for those wannabe heroes.
1. Green... means youre in save zone
2. Yellow.. means be aware of your DPS output, and hold back a little
3. Red...….means you have full aggro and deserves to die
After I have pulled mobs (without actions of DPS players) and after my opening rotation (to build a solid aggro) the mobs are glued to me, no matter how much DPS is being delivered on those mobs… It only take a few seconds for a tank to build up this aggro BEFORE DPS are jumping in.. A few seconds.
DPS players who are abusing this aggrometer (and openly shows disrespect toward a tank) and totally ignore the role of a tank in group, tanks shouldn't take actions to intercept the aggro from that particulary DPS player and just let him/her die in the progress, despite the fact that remarks will come towards the tank that he/she should do a better job....
My personal view is that I let them go, and let them die because I will not burn trough divinity to get the mobs off them and move on to the next..
With this being said, most DPS players do respect the role of a tank and follow the tank (who is pulling) without doing DPS and start with DPS when tank stops to fight the cluster (I even have regurally a Rogue in group who helps pulling by gathering mobs and bring to tank, well kudo's to them for doing a good job).
Very often I see (as soon I start pulling) the Icy ground appearing, even before I reached those mobs, to them I say.. You pulled HAMSTER, you deal with it. Period… And I will move on.
If DPS players have the impression that a Paladin does too much damage I suggest to read this post again to determine how and why.
note,
If a Paladin is doing too much damage (in your eyes) at the end of a fight it is not a Paladins fault but more of your own incapabillity to do proper damage as being a DPS.
darthpotator got it right in his reply on this topic
BTW, what use does it have to complain about this when the succes of the group goes first instead of an invidual.. ???
My two cents.
I have 5 toons ranging between 22k and 25k IL. I know, that the skill is always the same (mine) and I can compare the gear. I do not know, if I have the best build for my chars, but I try different builds and read the forum for tips.
That beeing said, I could voice an opinion, ranking them dps wise, with the grain of salt, that one or more of my builds or my rotations might have a major flaw.
Yesterday I did a RQ run Manycoin bank heist. The dps sucked. My 22k HR was paingiver. 2nd, with 30% less dps, was a CW with 25k IL and good gear. The other players, all well above 23k IL, had dealt a fraction of our dmg. If I would not know, that my CW with ca. 25k IL deals much more dmg then my HR and that the other classes are in a somehow similar range (when I play them) I could conclude, that HR is a beast, dps wise. As it is, I know, that HR is in a good place and the the other players used the wrong skills (I saw the skills they used) and might have had the wrong build.
Asking for a nerf to another class bc of your own opinion, without solid data, is not a good move.
Actually they should remove that from game.
In a good group I'm 4th in damage, in an average group 2nd or 3rd, in a bad group 1st.
That tells you plenty about where the problem is, and its not the Paladin class.
Obsidian Oath - Warlock
A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
Somehow the orignal poster have issues with tanks overal, hence the remark that tanks are not needed.
It's not the first time that person comes with similair remarks.
Dev's should change the accessibility of latest dungeon and all future ones so ppl will be forced to have a tank and healer in group to be able to enter (like the que system)
Good players will take tanks, even if not technically needed, because every time a new mod rolls around you need tanks and healers to help push you to the new peak of the game as fast as possible.
Obsidian Oath - Warlock
A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
But It's not needed to vent out your personal grudge against tanks, I see that as childish behave..
Guess what…. Miss Pariswinters has even opened a new post with her same grudges….
Actually these posts shouldnt belong here in this section, but in rant and flames section
As a support class, I often press X to see who is doing the most damage, because that determines who I'm going to target with my Staff of Flowers. It also lets me know if I can offer advice to my guildies or alliance members on their builds because it lets me know there may be a problem somewhere besides the gear I can inspect.
Personally I built my tank to hit all her offensive caps meaning her damage is respectable (but in no way comparable) when I go with skilled players, so I really don't think that Paladins do too much damage. Some tanks I've seen build far too much defense and completely neglect their offensive stats. I've seen DPS with above 21k that are still using summoned companions and don't hit their offensive caps. I don't think it's fair to compare classes using random queues because there are just too many unknown variables. I think the only way to fairly compare classes is to look at them when most of the contributing factors are the same, i.e. build, skill, stats, internet connection to name a few.
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The paladin is stronger but not by enough that it should require any changes. The paladin needs to be stronger since they dont have a dps path to use on solo. The fighter have that option. So if u reduce the paladin dmg its not gonna change much of anything in the average dungeon, but it can quickly mess up solo, specially for those lesser geared.
But like others have said, random ques are the worst place for any measurement of how a class is doing. U need controlled environment with equally geared well built toons. And the players need to be about equal skill to. And sorry to say, but random ques doesnt tend to attract most of those kind of people.