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Game Content is now too easy

katamaster81899katamaster81899 Posts: 1,148Member Arc User
I haven't posted on the forums in a *long* time, but I think that this issue warrants me coming back for a post.

I've been playing NW pretty actively over the past month or two, and I've gotten my characters that I play actively geared fairly well (23k CW, and a 20k DC). Sadly, I'm already finding that content is growing.... trivial. Not because of a lack of content, but because all of the content is just too easy. LOMM runs take 25 minutes, CR runs take 35 minutes, and CODG takes 10 minutes with a group that understands the mechanics. How is it possible that my 20.2k DC with less than 100k power is able to heal a lomm run with no wipes and no deaths? It shouldn't be.

Back in mod 2 and 3, CN, VT, and MC were the perfect difficulty - challenging for even well geared players, but not so easy that you could smack the keyboard with your face a couple of times and watch things melt.

I guess what I'm saying is - things are too easy now, and I think it would be great if we could holistically evaluate and discuss what the player experience is like for a casual player, a daily player, and a hardcore player; and then, find a way to meet the needs of all three of these categories. Because right now, I don't think the needs of any of these groups are being met.
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Comments

  • zimxero#8085 zimxero Posts: 292Member Arc User
    One thing they SHOULD do... is keep the Gallant 'Hardmode' rewards relevant. Give a top end shirt & pants, & introduce the Apocalypse dagger, add the Bile Drenched Scale, & maybe have an exchange for Companion upgrade tokens. Make it so that players cant find "one" weekly dungeon thats easy & get it all that week. Instead I would do this:

    Each Dungeon in the game gives one reward per week (in hardmode). The weekly dungeon gives triple, but can still only be run once for reward in that week. This keeps it challenging & not repetitive.

    New Campaigns:
    1) an extention to Undermountain "The Deep"
    2) Another large city... with wars & faction missions - building an army & developing alliances.
    3) A gods & Deities final campaign that can be repeated & escalates in difficulty to insane levels. Completing the campaign allows you to increase a character stat by +1. (can be done six times, once per stat)
    4) Add usefull next-level crafting items - not as recipe books... but as recipies in the campaign stores to purchase. Gotta spend campaign money on something besides junk in the end game.
  • mentinmindmakermentinmindmaker Posts: 779Member Arc User
    I just think we need to bear with Cryptic at this time. Mod 16 did not quite go as they intended, and it probably was tuned to be on the easy side from the start too since it represented so major changes.

    Mod 17 should tune in classes better, and they can adjust the overall difficulty level based on the experiences from mod 16.

    They better get mod 17 right.
  • chemjeffchemjeff Posts: 420Member Arc User

    How is it possible that my 20.2k DC with less than 100k power is able to heal a lomm run with no wipes and no deaths?

    How did you accomplish that? Any advice?
  • ramesh84ramesh84 Posts: 64Member Arc User
    Here's a good post speaking about that:
    https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1249734/can-we-please-get-harder-content
    Tbh I really like my idea of a X multiplier linking reward multipliers with a dungeon's critters power and HP, avoiding stuff like recharge/movement speed debuff because they're only annoying without providing additional challenge. That would give more reasons to gear up just for the challenge of getting an higher tier done. Should also work better than reduced level mode because is skipping issues due by weird scaling math and actually providing a better reward chance. Hope Devs could do that: I'm aware it's probably it's not a develop for everyone, but sounds so fast to implement on paper.
  • arcanjo86arcanjo86 Posts: 993Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    private queue can be easy(specially if all player are above 20k il req.), try minimum item level req option enabled and run lomm that the real challenge option on queue
  • tom#6998 tom Posts: 629Member Arc User

    Most of the problem lies in PUG group vs pre-made group.

    If you find the content too easy try pugging it. Really.

    I appreciate that for people who know the mechanics and have a great guild, most content IS TOO EASY.

    But for Pug groups? Not as much


    My experience [I tend to avoid RAQ and above]


    FBI - took 40 minutes to get to final boss - then multi wipes and after 20 minutes trying I gave up. Mostly a lack of understanding of the mechanics. But also woeful lack of DPS - great tanking and healing though!

    yes, pugging is where u can have remotly challenging content, but only because there are so many ppl that understand less then 0 about this game.
    And if its the case that besides u there is 1 other semi competent player in the pug group, the FBI run is still done in 20 min or less because u dont even need the other 3 ppl...
  • pilsbury187#6808 pilsbury187 Posts: 3Member Arc User
    I have a different experience. Before the new mod and skill rework I had 14.3k item level and could complete leveling and intermediate queue with little difficulty but advanced was difficult depending on queue. After new mod, item level is 17.3k and only queue that's easy is leveling queue. Intermediate is almost impossible and haven't even tried an advanced. Wtf? I want the old system back. Hate the rework. Playing on xbox. Any thoughts?
  • pariswinters#7118 pariswinters Posts: 759Member Arc User
    my typical experience as a 25k+ cleric running only public groups:
    LOMM: N/A ( I don't do LoMM, did it one time was 33 mins with a premade team)
    CN:15 mins
    TONG: 20 mins
    FBI: 15 mins
    MSP: 25 mins
    CR: Unplayable
  • callumf#9018 callumf Posts: 984Member Arc User
    tom#6998 said:

    Most of the problem lies in PUG group vs pre-made group.

    If you find the content too easy try pugging it. Really.

    I appreciate that for people who know the mechanics and have a great guild, most content IS TOO EASY.

    But for Pug groups? Not as much


    My experience [I tend to avoid RAQ and above]


    FBI - took 40 minutes to get to final boss - then multi wipes and after 20 minutes trying I gave up. Mostly a lack of understanding of the mechanics. But also woeful lack of DPS - great tanking and healing though!

    yes, pugging is where u can have remotly challenging content, but only because there are so many ppl that understand less then 0 about this game.
    And if its the case that besides u there is 1 other semi competent player in the pug group, the FBI run is still done in 20 min or less because u dont even need the other 3 ppl...
    Yes but you still need at least 2 competent players otherwise its wipes at the end.
  • callumf#9018 callumf Posts: 984Member Arc User

    my typical experience as a 25k+ cleric running only public groups:
    LOMM: N/A ( I don't do LoMM, did it one time was 33 mins with a premade team)
    CN:15 mins
    TONG: 20 mins
    FBI: 15 mins
    MSP: 25 mins
    CR: Unplayable

    Again - if you are a 25k Cleric I guess you can more or less solo everything up to CR cant you?
  • chemjeffchemjeff Posts: 420Member Arc User
    To those who think the game is too easy, why not share some tips on how to complete the content?
    How is it that you are able to do CR in 35 mins?
  • mentinmindmakermentinmindmaker Posts: 779Member Arc User
    edited July 6

    I have a different experience. Before the new mod and skill rework I had 14.3k item level and could complete leveling and intermediate queue with little difficulty but advanced was difficult depending on queue. After new mod, item level is 17.3k and only queue that's easy is leveling queue. Intermediate is almost impossible and haven't even tried an advanced. Wtf? I want the old system back. Hate the rework. Playing on xbox. Any thoughts?

    17.3k is not exactly well geared.

    Remember there is supposed to be a progression here. You are NOT supposed to do well in all dungeons/queues the moment you hit 80. You are supposed to be able to do harder and harder content as you fix your gear.

    And make sure your stat distribution is correct, cap your offensive stats then build power. If you don't get that right you'll be weaker than you should, for your IL.

    Most RIQ runs are pretty trivial, if for no other reason there usually is 1-2 well geared players to carry the team. One change from old times is that soloing dungeons is a lot harder/impossible now. You ARE doing this in a 5-man team, you are not trying to solo it? You are not supposed to be able to solo it.
  • katamaster81899katamaster81899 Posts: 1,148Member Arc User
    chemjeff said:

    To those who think the game is too easy, why not share some tips on how to complete the content?
    How is it that you are able to do CR in 35 mins?

    We had players who knew the mechanics, and were communicating in discord when to move. Funnily enough, (and no, I swear to *** that I am not trolling or joking), this was my first CR run ever. (everyone else in the party had run it before). Understanding the mechanics for the sisters, and then for the final boss, knowing when to move, where to stand - once you figure that out, there really isn't any challenge with it. The only important thing is to make sure you have 2 healers in the group, not one. We did this run with 1 tank, 2 healers, 2 DPS, and I think that is what made it such a smooth run.
    dulopa4e1d9.png
    || Axios Guild Leader || Neverwinter Trade Forum Moderator || Infernal Paragons ||
    Check out my foundry, titled "Akro's Gone Wacko", featuring our ex-CM Akromatik!: NW-DL8J7BY5T
    Erza Moonstalker | Lara Moonstalker | Julie Marvell | Erza Moonhunter | Annie Hellangel | Jenn Moonstalker
  • katamaster81899katamaster81899 Posts: 1,148Member Arc User

    I haven't posted on the forums in a *long* time, but I think that this issue warrants me coming back for a post.

    I've been playing NW pretty actively over the past month or two, and I've gotten my characters that I play actively geared fairly well (23k CW, and a 20k DC). Sadly, I'm already finding that content is growing.... trivial. Not because of a lack of content, but because all of the content is just too easy. LOMM runs take 25 minutes, CR runs take 35 minutes, and CODG takes 10 minutes with a group that understands the mechanics. How is it possible that my 20.2k DC with less than 100k power is able to heal a lomm run with no wipes and no deaths? It shouldn't be.

    Back in mod 2 and 3, CN, VT, and MC were the perfect difficulty - challenging for even well geared players, but not so easy that you could smack the keyboard with your face a couple of times and watch things melt.

    I guess what I'm saying is - things are too easy now, and I think it would be great if we could holistically evaluate and discuss what the player experience is like for a casual player, a daily player, and a hardcore player; and then, find a way to meet the needs of all three of these categories. Because right now, I don't think the needs of any of these groups are being met.

    There is an EASY fix to your problem... TAKE OUT YOUR ENCHANTS and Bonding RUNES... seriously!! That will make the game SO MUCH HARDER!!!! Trust me, I am a 17k CW and this game is NOT EASY for that IL.
    It is easier for YOU to become weak, then the rest of us to become YOUR IL. Just saying.

    It's funny how so many players do all they can to become powerful, and then COMPLAIN that they are TO POWERFUL... REALLY??????
    Ok, let's consider this as an option. If I take all my gear off my companion, and drop my IL to 17k... I can't run lomm. So theoretically, let's say that I drop my IL to just above 20k, enough to run lomm. Now, nobody in lfg will let me into their parties. Still, let's assume that I have a group of friends who is willing to run with me in my weakened state. I can still run lomm... because I have, with my 20.2k DC. And it's still not difficult.

    Furthermore, what is the point of running content at all, if not to better my gear, stats, and increase my IL and damage output. If I'm going to strip down to run every dungeon, well, what's the point of playing at all?
    dulopa4e1d9.png
    || Axios Guild Leader || Neverwinter Trade Forum Moderator || Infernal Paragons ||
    Check out my foundry, titled "Akro's Gone Wacko", featuring our ex-CM Akromatik!: NW-DL8J7BY5T
    Erza Moonstalker | Lara Moonstalker | Julie Marvell | Erza Moonhunter | Annie Hellangel | Jenn Moonstalker
  • katamaster81899katamaster81899 Posts: 1,148Member Arc User

    I have a different experience. Before the new mod and skill rework I had 14.3k item level and could complete leveling and intermediate queue with little difficulty but advanced was difficult depending on queue. After new mod, item level is 17.3k and only queue that's easy is leveling queue. Intermediate is almost impossible and haven't even tried an advanced. Wtf? I want the old system back. Hate the rework. Playing on xbox. Any thoughts?

    17.3k is not exactly well geared.

    Remember there is supposed to be a progression here. You are NOT supposed to do well in all dungeons/queues the moment you hit 80. You are supposed to be able to do harder and harder content as you fix your gear.

    And make sure your stat distribution is correct, cap your offensive stats then build power. If you don't get that right you'll be weaker than you should, for your IL.

    Most RIQ runs are pretty trivial, if for no other reason there usually is 1-2 well geared players to carry the team. One change from old times is that soloing dungeons is a lot harder/impossible now. You ARE doing this in a 5-man team, you are not trying to solo it? You are not supposed to be able to solo it.
    This is true. I have found howerver, that if you get the bank heist in RIQ, a lot of random groups aren't able to do it. One player cannot carry that run, no matter how strong they are - because you need at least one decent player on each portal to contain mobs.
    dulopa4e1d9.png
    || Axios Guild Leader || Neverwinter Trade Forum Moderator || Infernal Paragons ||
    Check out my foundry, titled "Akro's Gone Wacko", featuring our ex-CM Akromatik!: NW-DL8J7BY5T
    Erza Moonstalker | Lara Moonstalker | Julie Marvell | Erza Moonhunter | Annie Hellangel | Jenn Moonstalker
  • mentinmindmakermentinmindmaker Posts: 779Member Arc User
    edited July 6



    This is true. I have found howerver, that if you get the bank heist in RIQ, a lot of random groups aren't able to do it. One player cannot carry that run, no matter how strong they are - because you need at least one decent player on each portal to contain mobs.

    That is true. Bank Heist got some tuning problems at the moment, it is way too hard. You need a fairly massive dps to be able to keep up with the spawns. I would actually call Bank Heist bugged.

    Bank Heist is not representative for the majority of the RIQ runs though.
  • utookmynickutookmynick Posts: 140Member Arc User
    chemjeff said:

    How is it possible that my 20.2k DC with less than 100k power is able to heal a lomm run with no wipes and no deaths?

    How did you accomplish that? Any advice?
    If you are in a good group, it is very easy for a DC healer. Conversely, if you are in a bad group, it becomes frantic for a healer.

  • utookmynickutookmynick Posts: 140Member Arc User

    a daily player, and a hardcore player; and then, find a way to meet the needs of all three of these categories.

    Erza, given that this game was obviously developed with a focus towards casual gamers and now doesn't have a population to support increased dev, I sincerely doubt this will happen. However, there are other MMOs that are more challenging. I know that is not an ideal suggestion, but that's the reality. Once you've gotten over the learning curve and completed an instance, it will become easy after that. One solution is to pug with 4 other first time, casual players, but you wouldn't call that a challenge, just frustrating and not fun :)

  • zimxero#8085 zimxero Posts: 292Member Arc User
    edited July 6
    Honestly, there are only 3 issues with the balance:

    1) General balancing is not quite there yet. Some missions way harder than others. Certain creatures take too long to kill, etc..

    2) All the end-game players are capped. There are a lot of solutions... none of them elegant. The one I prefer is to add 5% base chance to defense and deflection... & go to a standard 1:3 ratio on monster stats... all monsters have 3 times as much for positive stats as negative. With this set-up, ME enemies would have about 20,000 negative stats, and 60,000 for positive stats (plus 5%). A player would need 65,000 in a stat to hit 50% effectiveness or to negate enemies.

    3) Tanking and Healing have become less important than intended. Lots of things can be done including nothing. I would raise all "Non-Boss" monster damage by 10%. Give all tanks 10% incoming damage reduction, +10% threat generation, and a 5% penalty to outgoing damage dealing. This would create a greater need for healers, while also separatiing tank & DPS roles.
  • lukejones77lukejones77 Posts: 250Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    edited July 7

    Most of the problem lies in PUG group vs pre-made group.

    If you find the content too easy try pugging it. Really.

    I appreciate that for people who know the mechanics and have a great guild, most content IS TOO EASY.

    But for Pug groups? Not as much


    My experience [I tend to avoid RAQ and above]


    FBI - took 40 minutes to get to final boss - then multi wipes and after 20 minutes trying I gave up. Mostly a lack of understanding of the mechanics. But also woeful lack of DPS - great tanking and healing though!

    This.

    A run will have a certain difficulty factor.
    Should you be able to log in, PUG up for a run, and enjoy an experience according to what the item level requirements are? Sure, why not?
    Now, a fully experienced and geared guild/friend party, talking to each other via something like Discord is going to find it massively easy compared to said PUG group.
    Optimized groups should be able to drop and experienced player (*maybe* even two), and take a newbie along for an enjoyable, very generally successful run. That's a pig part of the MMO social experience, and the content needs to be easy enough to allow it.

    Did the DEVs get it wrong? No. There is no easy answer.
    Right now, player base has possibly contracted to where experienced pre-made groups are the norm, and the temptation is to develop content to target that. In my opinion, that would be a mistake. You need to have a marketable game for casual players that like to PUG. Forcing new players to join one of the large guilds, to get anywhere, isn't good. Having a free to play game that only caters for long-term experienced players that don't need to spend real money is a sure fire way to kill the game.

    Probably one of the better suggstions I've heard is the concept of choosing to scale extra difficulty for extra reward. This is what we have now with MEs and the number of runes you choose to place. Great idea, and let's see more of it!
    Now, imagine that you could place up to 8 runes in an ME with scaled rewards - with areas respawning when you wipe.
    Now *that* is a carrot for guilds and friends to really get their stuff together - bragging rights, 1/2 your daily RAD in a run, really good chances of the big drops.
    That kind of scaling (instead of what MOD 16 brought us) would be a real winner!!

    I could get flamed for this, but on the other side of the coin, I agree that when you PUG fully geared (i.e. have high power), the scale down isn't nearly large enough. You still get to stomp through the lower run PUG content, way above the group capability, and they don't need to do enough of the things that make the content enjoyable (learn the mechanics, manage damage, formulate strategy after a wipe etc).
    I think there's a challenge there to DEVs specifically with scaling and Power. Scaling needs to somehow wind back the power.
  • chemjeffchemjeff Posts: 420Member Arc User

    chemjeff said:

    To those who think the game is too easy, why not share some tips on how to complete the content?
    How is it that you are able to do CR in 35 mins?

    We had players who knew the mechanics, and were communicating in discord when to move. Funnily enough, (and no, I swear to *** that I am not trolling or joking), this was my first CR run ever. (everyone else in the party had run it before). Understanding the mechanics for the sisters, and then for the final boss, knowing when to move, where to stand - once you figure that out, there really isn't any challenge with it. The only important thing is to make sure you have 2 healers in the group, not one. We did this run with 1 tank, 2 healers, 2 DPS, and I think that is what made it such a smooth run.
    Can you share the mechanics for these bosses? Especially Strand?
  • chemjeffchemjeff Posts: 420Member Arc User

    chemjeff said:

    To those who think the game is too easy, why not share some tips on how to complete the content?
    How is it that you are able to do CR in 35 mins?

    We had players who knew the mechanics, and were communicating in discord when to move. Funnily enough, (and no, I swear to *** that I am not trolling or joking), this was my first CR run ever. (everyone else in the party had run it before). Understanding the mechanics for the sisters, and then for the final boss, knowing when to move, where to stand - once you figure that out, there really isn't any challenge with it. The only important thing is to make sure you have 2 healers in the group, not one. We did this run with 1 tank, 2 healers, 2 DPS, and I think that is what made it such a smooth run.
    Also, you found it easy because you had 2 healers. Try the 3 1 1 composition.
  • chemjeffchemjeff Posts: 420Member Arc User

    chemjeff said:

    How is it possible that my 20.2k DC with less than 100k power is able to heal a lomm run with no wipes and no deaths?

    How did you accomplish that? Any advice?
    If you are in a good group, it is very easy for a DC healer. Conversely, if you are in a bad group, it becomes frantic for a healer.

    Ok so no advice then.
  • kangkeokkangkeok Posts: 1,062Member Arc User
    I totally agree with player who feels the game getting too easy should try out PUG more than premade. Not that I'm against premade or guild run, it just that both premade and pug need a balance. By playing PUG, u get the challenge that u wanted AND also help out people especially new and guildless player. U could also use it as a recruitment hub for your guild. I usually balance out my daily run between guildmate and pug. If I already did RAQ and RIQ with guildmate, I would do REQ and leveling daily with pug. Keeping both PUG and premade going is a way to keep the game healthy. Don't forget PUG is where the newbie would 1st go to. Helping them helps the future generation of the game.
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