More skills in skill bar.

metaleiro

I've been playing a lot of mmorpg since i was 10-12 and there i could use a lot of skills in skill bar or commands like shift+ L or shift+ R or S + R or W+R... Why here in NWO we can only use 3 skills? Why not have 5-6 skill in skill bar o one way to alternate 2-3 skills bars ? It should be better to our dps and i dont see any reason to limit it...

@nitocris83

darthpotater

Because then it will be the same like the other MMOs...

finmakin

Simple answer…
This is Neverwinter and not World of Warcraft…
Take it or leave it...

utookmynick

I think there were 2 reasons:

1) They were creating a quicker pace, more action oriented MMO. For example, MOBAs and FPS games don't rely on lots of different skills/buttons.

2) Keep things simple, and this is for:

a) Smaller learning curve, more casual, can appeal to wider audience, etc.

b) I think they always had expanding to console in mind. (can still map a lot of skills of course, like MHW)

It's hard to say how well this worked out. It's restrictive even for designing the skills (reason why most skills do multiple things. ie. pre-mod16 DG was a heal, dmg, buff/debuff skill all in one) and annoying to have to swap skills between boss and trash fights (or when fighting different classes in PVP).

rjc9000

metaleiro#1139 said:

I've been playing a lot of mmorpg since i was 10-12 and there i could use a lot of skills in skill bar or commands like shift+ L or shift+ R or S + R or W+R... Why here in NWO we can only use 3 skills? Why not have 5-6 skill in skill bar o one way to alternate 2-3 skills bars ? It should be better to our dps and i dont see any reason to limit it...

I wouldn't mind those extra slots using button combos like that. I don't think we'd need a whole lot of extra slots, but maybe 1-3 extra encounter slots depending on what class you are could be interesting.

utookmynick said:

b) I think they always had expanding to console in mind. (can still map a lot of skills of course, like MHW)

Ultimately, I'd guess that this is the reason why slots are capped at 3. Something about controllers lacking the simplicity.

Alternatively, I'd guess that the devs won't give more or less encounter slots due to citing some sort of "balance" in mind (nevermind that Mod 16 just changed the way many ingame problems were presented rather than killing them off outright).

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sandukutupu

metaleiro#1139 said:

I've been playing a lot of mmorpg since i was 10-12 and there i could use a lot of skills in skill bar or commands like shift+ L or shift+ R or S + R or W+R... Why here in NWO we can only use 3 skills? Why not have 5-6 skill in skill bar o one way to alternate 2-3 skills bars ? It should be better to our dps and i dont see any reason to limit it...

Back when the game was in alpha, I pretty much felt the same as you do. Then I realized what the truth was, there are not enough powers to have the massive build as other MMOs do. Now that mod 16 has them reduced even fewer, everyone would place the top ones and have the exact same build. The number of feats reduced from 33 down to 10 and the encounter powers from 15 down to 10, if you were to place 6 encounter powers and 2 at wills for a total of 8, it would not leave much behind.

The wizards get 1 more power under Tab (mastery) and all the rangers have duel powers, 3 become 6 when you swap using Tab.

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kreatyve

While it's not an unreasonable request, I don't honestly see anything like this happening. They limit the number of skills you can use for a reason. To add more would require a much larger bit of work than you seem to realize.

kangkeok

metaleiro#1139 said:

Why not have 5-6 skill in skill bar o one way to alternate 2-3 skills bars ?

Checkout the Hunter Ranger class.

plasticbat

The game is changed to make you to use at will more, less encounter (longer timeout) and less daily (harder to gain AP). Adding more encounter slots defeat that 'goal'.

lantern22

plasticbat said:

The game is changed to make you to use at will more, less encounter (longer timeout) and less daily (harder to gain AP). Adding more encounter slots defeat that 'goal'.

I wouldn't mind a quick loadout change to swap at wills as well - ie between single target and AOE etc. but there wouldn't be much point when everything went on a 10 sec cooldown

kreatyve said:

While it's not an unreasonable request, I don't honestly see anything like this happening. They limit the number of skills you can use for a reason. To add more would require a much larger bit of work than you seem to realize.

god forbid they might actually do some work on stuff that the player base might like

darpendragon

> @metaleiro#1139 said:
> I've been playing a lot of mmorpg since i was 10-12 and there i could use a lot of skills in skill bar or commands like shift+ L or shift+ R or S + R or W+R... Why here in NWO we can only use 3 skills? Why not have 5-6 skill in skill bar o one way to alternate 2-3 skills bars ? It should be better to our dps and i dont see any reason to limit it...
>
> @nitocris83

The reason for the limited number usable skills in the skill bar is that neverwinter was created in conjunction with the release of 4th edition of dungeons and dragons.

In 4th ed, you were limited in the number of abilities you can know and use.

sandukutupu

My point is that many MMOs that use larger skill bars have hundreds of skills to choose from. This one has only 15 per 8 classes. I am not comparing it to WoW either. Guild Wars the original game, has over 140 just for the warrior class alone. When you configure this with your secondary class skills, from the other 9 classes and the common, you end up with thousands of choices.

But this game is based (very loosely) on the D&D 5th edition by Wizard's of the Coast. If your daily power was a true daily, there would be no action points, you would end up waiting 24 hours to learn the spell again. As we all know, according to Barovia day/night timer, a game day is 30 minutes. I would hate waiting 30 minutes for those dailies to recharge. Cryptic has to keep within the realm of the WoC IP or they could get irate about them not representing the material within appropriate guidelines.

What you are talking about, at the end of the day, is some other company holding you hostage with a strict IP license. Have fun!

cheerz4beerz

The only thing I wish we had was one more slot dedicated to movement based encounters.

cdnbison

metaleiro#1139 said:

I've been playing a lot of mmorpg since i was 10-12 and there i could use a lot of skills in skill bar or commands like shift+ L or shift+ R or S + R or W+R... Why here in NWO we can only use 3 skills? Why not have 5-6 skill in skill bar o one way to alternate 2-3 skills bars ? It should be better to our dps and i dont see any reason to limit it...

You ever watch any of those cooking competition TV shows? Top Chef, Chopped, etc? Ever notice that when they want to make things difficult, they severely limit what the chefs have available to them? ("You must create a 7 course meal, using whatever is in this bachelor's fridge, and one frying pan!")

Yes, they could have gone the EQ \ WoW \ SWToR route, and given you all sorts of skills and skill bars to use. They didn't. Your choices are limited. You need to make choices about what you're going to use in a fight, not just have everything available, all the time. This allows for some customization, adds a bit to the difficulty, and makes powers part of the build process - your AoE / trash mob build is geared to AoE powers and feats. A single target build meant to take down bosses will not perform as well against groups of targets.

It also adds to how you strategize (mainly against bosses, but applies to your solo / questing build, too) - does the Cleric slot Cleanse to remove that negative effect, or a different, bigger heal? Or Divine Glow for divinity recovery to keep casting the heals? What combination is most effective in a given situation? What matches your playstyle?

darpendragon

> @sandukutupu said:
> My point is that many MMOs that use larger skill bars have hundreds of skills to choose from. This one has only 15 per 8 classes. I am not comparing it to WoW either. Guild Wars the original game, has over 140 just for the warrior class alone. When you configure this with your secondary class skills, from the other 9 classes and the common, you end up with thousands of choices.
>
> But this game is based (very loosely) on the D&D 5th edition by Wizard's of the Coast. If your daily power was a true daily, there would be no action points, you would end up waiting 24 hours to learn the spell again. As we all know, according to Barovia day/night timer, a game day is 30 minutes. I would hate waiting 30 minutes for those dailies to recharge. Cryptic has to keep within the realm of the WoC IP or they could get irate about them not representing the material within appropriate guidelines.
>
> What you are talking about, at the end of the day, is some other company holding you hostage with a strict IP license. Have fun!

Point #1

Your use of Guild Wars as an example is a pretty bad. Yes there are over 100 skills per class, however you are limited to only using 8 at a time. Also, you could only change them in town.

Point #2

This game is based on 4th edition of Dungeons and Dragons, not 5th edition, so rules for mechanics had to be adapted so the game would still resemble D&D and still be fun.

Point #3

Wizards of the Coast own Dungeons and Dragons, And whether you like it or not, they have final say on what is allowed and what is not allowed in the game. Otherwise Cryptic could lose the license to D&D and the game would shut down. It is like that in any licensed product, if the licesenee and the ip holder do not agree, the ip holder can revoke the license.

greywynd

darpendragon said:

This game is was based on 4th edition of Dungeons and Dragons, not 5th edition, so rules for mechanics had to be adapted so the game would still resemble D&D and still be fun.

Fixed that for you. With the change from 4th Ed to 5th, this game has also shifted its paradigm (M16 overhaul).

utookmynick

rjc9000 said:

Ultimately, I'd guess that this is the reason why slots are capped at 3. Something about controllers lacking the simplicity.

Alternatively, I'd guess that the devs won't give more or less encounter slots due to citing some sort of "balance" in mind (nevermind that Mod 16 just changed the way many ingame problems were presented rather than killing them off outright).

The console controller limitation and the simplicity of fewer buttons must be the main reasons. Having 10+ keys for powers can be daunting for casual gamers or people new to the genre.

However, I think the 3 power limit (4 cw) really shows itself in mod 16. They want to have more distinct, specialized powers, but as players, it is hard to choose some of these because it means giving up a much better encounter.

sandukutupu

darpendragon said:

Point #1

Your use of Guild Wars as an example is a pretty bad. Yes there are over 100 skills per class, however you are limited to only using 8 at a time. Also, you could only change them in town.

Actually it depends. If one is playing it solo (not in a party), you can equip all 7 of the heroes (e.g. companions) you choose to place in your party. Each hero has a build with dual professions and you can control which skills they have as well. You can tell them how to fight or not fight, what spells to cast. If I want to micro manage my heroes, that would give me 64 spell slots. Because Guild Wars is non-IP related, you can give monks any weapons. I have a hero dwarf Warrior Monk who wields dual axes and can heal you. If you are in a party of 8 people, then you hope the others have builds that don't stink. I mostly PvP on the weekends with my friends, since I beat the storyline and they don't plan to add any more to the story. A much better game than its sequel ever will be.

darpendragon said:

Point #2

This game is based on 4th edition of Dungeons and Dragons, not 5th edition, so rules for mechanics had to be adapted so the game would still resemble D&D and still be fun.

Yes, I am a table top player from the 1980's. Been playing a long time. This game never resembled D&D in any format other than name only. Since when do you play D&D with a level 80 character who has 160,000 HP? I found the mechanics of DDO much closer to the actual table top game. Unfortunately a lot of the game is behind a pay wall and both the GUI and the game play feels very "clunky" and outdated.

darpendragon said:

Point #3

Wizards of the Coast own Dungeons and Dragons, And whether you like it or not, they have final say on what is allowed and what is not allowed in the game. Otherwise Cryptic could lose the license to D&D and the game would shut down. It is like that in any licensed product, if the licesenee and the ip holder do not agree, the ip holder can revoke the license.

I think Cryptic almost proved this statement somewhat flawed with module 15 "Acquisitions Incorporated". I found out the YouTuber who plays Omin Dran is a former executive of WoC. I guess he pulled some strings to get that included. I was not upset by this content, it is just not my idea of a good module. I watched the 1 hour PAX video as the WoC executive looked bored and said, Wizards of the Coast only concern was Cryptic representation of content. I guess that means all the content is canon now. I like some humor in my D&D but that module went above and beyond. As I said above, any game based on works from another company is going to be restricted to the IP holder. I really don't see where we disagree on this statement?

matthattr

The original thing was to make you choose a path, it was one class with 3 feat paths locking you into a "style" of your class. Then later they added paragon routes for each class, once again making you choose a path or style. The few encounters and at-wills are deliberate to make you have to pick and choose between your play style and not have a slew of every buttons.

Then they added load-out slots. This was A. a monetization ploy, but also allow you to choose a different customization with a different play style, but also still limiting you to have to pick and choose what is most important to you rather than 2 doz. buttons.

Now they have cut down on feats and powers but still leaving the paragons and loadouts. I go both ways over this, I would like a few more buttons/attacks at hand to throw, making your character more versatile depending on enemy. But I also see where they have gone with it, forcing a choice on you and keeping the buttons uncluttered. 6 of one half doz. of another.

darpendragon

sandukutupu said:

darpendragon said:

Point #1

Your use of Guild Wars as an example is a pretty bad. Yes there are over 100 skills per class, however you are limited to only using 8 at a time. Also, you could only change them in town.

Actually it depends. If one is playing it solo (not in a party), you can equip all 7 of the heroes (e.g. companions) you choose to place in your party. Each hero has a build with dual professions and you can control which skills they have as well. You can tell them how to fight or not fight, what spells to cast. If I want to micro manage my heroes, that would give me 64 spell slots. Because Guild Wars is non-IP related, you can give monks any weapons. I have a hero dwarf Warrior Monk who wields dual axes and can heal you. If you are in a party of 8 people, then you hope the others have builds that don't stink. I mostly PvP on the weekends with my friends, since I beat the storyline and they don't plan to add any more to the story. A much better game than its sequel ever will be.

It has been a while since I played Guild Wars, but I do not remember being able to activate skills on heroes. I know you can set their skills and chose which ones they can use and which ones to disable, but I do not remember that you can actually activate their skills.

sandukutupu

darpendragon said:

sandukutupu said:

darpendragon said:

Point #1

Your use of Guild Wars as an example is a pretty bad. Yes there are over 100 skills per class, however you are limited to only using 8 at a time. Also, you could only change them in town.

Actually it depends. If one is playing it solo (not in a party), you can equip all 7 of the heroes (e.g. companions) you choose to place in your party. Each hero has a build with dual professions and you can control which skills they have as well. You can tell them how to fight or not fight, what spells to cast. If I want to micro manage my heroes, that would give me 64 spell slots. Because Guild Wars is non-IP related, you can give monks any weapons. I have a hero dwarf Warrior Monk who wields dual axes and can heal you. If you are in a party of 8 people, then you hope the others have builds that don't stink. I mostly PvP on the weekends with my friends, since I beat the storyline and they don't plan to add any more to the story. A much better game than its sequel ever will be.

It has been a while since I played Guild Wars, but I do not remember being able to activate skills on heroes. I know you can set their skills and chose which ones they can use and which ones to disable, but I do not remember that you can actually activate their skills.

No problem here you can see this image, I have my 8 skills on right hand lower corner. The 7 heroes are on the left side.

Each hero has 8 skills at the bottom of their box. The top 3 (sword, shield, and dove) allow me to command them to attack, guard, or evade. I don't normally have a ll 7 heroes up like this, most of the time I micro manage my monks to keep them healing the party. Some cases the AI fails to cast the spell at the right time.


But this thread is about Neverwinter. I was just using this to point out that Neverwinter does not have enough skills to make dozens of buttons. In fact, the one game they have done with lots of skill buttons is Star Trek and I get lost on it.

darpendragon

sandukutupu said:

darpendragon said:

sandukutupu said:

darpendragon said:

Point #1

Your use of Guild Wars as an example is a pretty bad. Yes there are over 100 skills per class, however you are limited to only using 8 at a time. Also, you could only change them in town.

Actually it depends. If one is playing it solo (not in a party), you can equip all 7 of the heroes (e.g. companions) you choose to place in your party. Each hero has a build with dual professions and you can control which skills they have as well. You can tell them how to fight or not fight, what spells to cast. If I want to micro manage my heroes, that would give me 64 spell slots. Because Guild Wars is non-IP related, you can give monks any weapons. I have a hero dwarf Warrior Monk who wields dual axes and can heal you. If you are in a party of 8 people, then you hope the others have builds that don't stink. I mostly PvP on the weekends with my friends, since I beat the storyline and they don't plan to add any more to the story. A much better game than its sequel ever will be.

It has been a while since I played Guild Wars, but I do not remember being able to activate skills on heroes. I know you can set their skills and chose which ones they can use and which ones to disable, but I do not remember that you can actually activate their skills.

No problem here you can see this image, I have my 8 skills on right hand lower corner. The 7 heroes are on the left side.

Each hero has 8 skills at the bottom of their box. The top 3 (sword, shield, and dove) allow me to command them to attack, guard, or evade. I don't normally have a ll 7 heroes up like this, most of the time I micro manage my monks to keep them healing the party. Some cases the AI fails to cast the spell at the right time.


But this thread is about Neverwinter. I was just using this to point out that Neverwinter does not have enough skills to make dozens of buttons. In fact, the one game they have done with lots of skill buttons is Star Trek and I get lost on it.

Yes it allows you to choose attack, defend, or passive(not doing anything), but my point is that you can't really activate their skills by clicking on them. The heroes use their skills based on their chosen "stance" as it were.

sandukutupu

darpendragon said:

Yes it allows you to choose attack, defend, or passive(not doing anything), but my point is that you can't really activate their skills by clicking on them. The heroes use their skills based on their chosen "stance" as it were.

Yes, I can click on those 8 skill buttons and tell them to cast that spell or use that skill. If they don't have the required energy or adrenaline available, it places a green check mark on it and they cast it as soon as possible. Otherwise it is an immediate cast. My monk Tahikora has Heal Party as her 8th skill, if the party is looking beat up I check it. Kind of like shouting at them, hey moron do something the party is about to wipe! lol

zimxero

Really, NW has:
3 encounters
1 At will (with 2 options)
1 TAB power
1 mount power
1 artifact power
3 item powers
1 action power (running, warping, blocking)
1 daily power (with 2 options)

In total, we have at least 12 active skills or actions


Additionally, each player has a multitude of enhancement options & passives.

We don't need an overhaul. A class-based item like a Wizard's Spell book (containing a skill ) with triple default recharge, might be cool. It would be nice to see some low-grade damage & effect producing consumable items with crafting. More than anything, NW needs to buff its seldom used skills so that there is a more dynamic variety of options to choose from.

darpendragon

sandukutupu said:

darpendragon said:

Yes it allows you to choose attack, defend, or passive(not doing anything), but my point is that you can't really activate their skills by clicking on them. The heroes use their skills based on their chosen "stance" as it were.

Yes, I can click on those 8 skill buttons and tell them to cast that spell or use that skill. If they don't have the required energy or adrenaline available, it places a green check mark on it and they cast it as soon as possible. Otherwise it is an immediate cast. My monk Tahikora has Heal Party as her 8th skill, if the party is looking beat up I check it. Kind of like shouting at them, hey moron do something the party is about to wipe! lol

Alright, I shall concede this point then. As I said earlier, I haven't played in a long while, since I started playing STO, the other Cryptic Studios game, so I probably have forgotten some of the mechanics of Guild Wars. I should get back into Guild Wars, someday, but now is not the time to talk about that.

Back to discussing about Neverwinter.