Devs, Please Scrap The Daily Power Damage Suppressor Idea You Were Considering For PVP

trgluestickz

@asterdahl @noworries#8859 @nitocris83 @tripsofthrymr @kreatyve @terramak

Now that the PVP crowd has had some time to adjust their toons's gear for PVP, and matches have been happening, its become apparent that most players will be very tanky in PVP this mod.

We can stack more than twice the amount of HP I had anticipated us being able to reach on preview. 280k through 400k+ HP will be the norm for PVPers in general, with tanks being able to reach 450k and above easily.

In addition to high HP, players are also stacking lots of defense/DR and crit avoidance. We can get lots of deflection too in the form of shadowclad enchantment. Ring of sieging is also seeing a comeback with several PVPers slotting it for more DR. Some players have also taken to running valhalla set for even more damage reduction. Holy avenger enchantment is very popular among tanks this mod so far, though this may be dropped in favor of vorpal later on.

Certain classes also have very powerful healing abilities, such as barbarian and paladin.

Magnitudes for powers were also lowered during the later stages of preview testing.

We will only get tankyer this mod since several items such as negation enchantment, shadowclad enchantment, and the HP campaign boons currently are bugged. The HP boons don't grant any HP and these 2 enchantments reportedly don't grant any DR right now. After these items are fixed, players will probably become too tanky in PVP, especially paladins and barbarians.

So far, 40k through 80k armor pen is reachable, not yet sure if we can go beyond that. I was doing ok with 60k armor pen on my rogue but suspect I will need more later.

Because of the above, I urge the devs to scrap the daily power damage suppressor idea, we definitely won't need it.

alfalolz

trgluestickz said:

@asterdahl @noworries#8859 @nitocris83 @tripsofthrymr @kreatyve @terramak

Now that the PVP crowd has had some time to adjust their toons's gear for PVP, and matches have been happening, its become apparent that most players will be very tanky in PVP this mod.

We can stack more than twice the amount of HP I had anticipated us being able to reach on preview. 280k through 400k+ HP will be the norm for PVPers in general, with tanks being able to reach 450k and above easily.

In addition to high HP, players are also stacking lots of defense/DR and crit avoidance. We can get lots of deflection too in the form of shadowclad enchantment. Ring of sieging is also seeing a comeback with several PVPers slotting it for more DR. Some players have also taken to running valhalla set for even more damage reduction. Holy avenger enchantment is very popular among tanks this mod so far, though this may be dropped in favor of vorpal later on.

Certain classes also have very powerful healing abilities, such as barbarian and paladin.

Magnitudes for powers were also lowered during the later stages of preview testing.

We will only get tankyer this mod since several items such as negation enchantment, shadowclad enchantment, and the HP campaign boons currently are bugged. The HP boons don't grant any HP and these 2 enchantments reportedly don't grant any DR right now. After these items are fixed, players will probably become too tanky in PVP, especially paladins and barbarians.

So far, 40k through 80k armor pen is reachable, not yet sure if we can go beyond that. I was doing ok with 60k armor pen on my rogue but suspect I will need more later.

Because of the above, I urge the devs to scrap the daily power damage suppressor idea, we definitely won't need it.

Cheeses Christ why on earth would you want 80k armor pen in pvp ??? are you joking me???

Most classes dont have more then 20 armor, thus needed only 20 armor pen. For tanks, yea you def need more, but i bet you wont be able to kill in solo any tank with your 80k arm pen.

tholan

Totally agree with trgluestickz, after a slow start, i've comed up to the same idea.
We are too much tanky, but really too much if build correctly and with one of those item.

But i will address more two of the item that you wrote down trgluestickz, the siege ring and the Valhalla set mainly, they should be scaled down a lot, actually they are so effective in pvp that even the new set present mod16 can't compare, even if they give you a lot more of HP and stat ( taking in account the Valhalla Set here)

trgluestickz

alfalolz said:

trgluestickz said:

@asterdahl @noworries#8859 @nitocris83 @tripsofthrymr @kreatyve @terramak

Now that the PVP crowd has had some time to adjust their toons's gear for PVP, and matches have been happening, its become apparent that most players will be very tanky in PVP this mod.

We can stack more than twice the amount of HP I had anticipated us being able to reach on preview. 280k through 400k+ HP will be the norm for PVPers in general, with tanks being able to reach 450k and above easily.

In addition to high HP, players are also stacking lots of defense/DR and crit avoidance. We can get lots of deflection too in the form of shadowclad enchantment. Ring of sieging is also seeing a comeback with several PVPers slotting it for more DR. Some players have also taken to running valhalla set for even more damage reduction. Holy avenger enchantment is very popular among tanks this mod so far, though this may be dropped in favor of vorpal later on.

Certain classes also have very powerful healing abilities, such as barbarian and paladin.

Magnitudes for powers were also lowered during the later stages of preview testing.

We will only get tankyer this mod since several items such as negation enchantment, shadowclad enchantment, and the HP campaign boons currently are bugged. The HP boons don't grant any HP and these 2 enchantments reportedly don't grant any DR right now. After these items are fixed, players will probably become too tanky in PVP, especially paladins and barbarians.

So far, 40k through 80k armor pen is reachable, not yet sure if we can go beyond that. I was doing ok with 60k armor pen on my rogue but suspect I will need more later.

Because of the above, I urge the devs to scrap the daily power damage suppressor idea, we definitely won't need it.

Cheeses Christ why on earth would you want 80k armor pen in pvp ??? are you joking me???

Most classes dont have more then 20 armor, thus needed only 20 armor pen. For tanks, yea you def need more, but i bet you wont be able to kill in solo any tank with your 80k arm pen.

I am already able to solo kill tanks with 60k armor pen, its not easy but I can do it. 80k armor pen doesn't require me to lose much offense stats so stacking to 80k is unlikely to cause me to be unable to kill tanks.

As for how much armor pen I actually need, I'm still unsure how much I really need; I can only see the DR on their sheets and items they have on. I don't know how much they have coming from class features yet and how much of that is affected by armor pen in mod 16.

That all said, it is still possible that I could lose the ability to solo kill tanks as they continue to tweak their builds. Tanks in the 450k and below HP range are killable with my 60k armor pen but I don't think that is the limit of what they can reach in PVP.
I did see an OP with 700k HP recently, some of that was coming from his companion though.

trgluestickz

lordnemesis1981 said:

Totally agree with trgluestickz, after a slow start, i've comed up to the same idea.
We are too much tanky, but really too much if build correctly and with one of those item.

But i will address more two of the item that you wrote down trgluestickz, the siege ring and the Valhalla set mainly, they should be scaled down a lot, actually they are so effective in pvp that even the new set present mod16 can't compare, even if they give you a lot more of HP and stat ( taking in account the Valhalla Set here)

I was wondering if those items would turn out to be overpowered or not, I'm not sure what my stance on these items is yet.

nezdin

I would rather wait until classes are balanced to a reasonable level. Right now there are flagrant imbalances, some classes fare much better than others. Tuning the DPS dailies up or down can be done at any point but right now I am guessing some classes need defensive capabilities more than others. Same goes for defensive items like Valhalla.

From the limited testing I have done my guess is that the HR performs sub-par (HR 3k levels higher than my no-vorpal and no-new weapon and generally undergeared CW lost 10-2 although HRs still seem to have the "I heal my enemies bug" lol). DCs need to stop mid battle to pray in order to be able to deliver attacks/heal - in essence we become rooted in place while praying and can be attacked by anyone. Sort of ridiculous. I also duelled against a BiS pvp OP - my Arbiter DC (DPS) stood no chance: rooted stunned and killed in seconds. Devout DC (healer) stood much better against him though. I believe I saw a BiS CW duelling the same OP though in a private match we organised and he seemed to stand his ground well.

As far as the items go, I do agree that ring of sieging (which I also use) needs to be nerfed a lot - why should a ring be able to give 30% DR?

alfalolz

nezdin#5514 said:

I would rather wait until classes are balanced to a reasonable level. Right now there are flagrant imbalances, some classes fare much better than others. Tuning the DPS dailies up or down can be done at any point but right now I am guessing some classes need defensive capabilities more than others. Same goes for defensive items like Valhalla.

From the limited testing I have done my guess is that the HR performs sub-par (HR 3k levels higher than my no-vorpal and no-new weapon and generally undergeared CW lost 10-2 although HRs still seem to have the "I heal my enemies bug" lol). DCs need to stop mid battle to pray in order to be able to deliver attacks/heal - in essence we become rooted in place while praying and can be attacked by anyone. Sort of ridiculous. I also duelled against a BiS pvp OP - my Arbiter DC (DPS) stood no chance: rooted stunned and killed in seconds. Devout DC (healer) stood much better against him though. I believe I saw a BiS CW duelling the same OP though in a private match we organised and he seemed to stand his ground well.

As far as the items go, I do agree that ring of sieging (which I also use) needs to be nerfed a lot - why should a ring be able to give 30% DR?

24k + Arbiter has no potential to kill OP but he can stand and not die. I can confirm that.
Although Arbiter lacks some sort of a control (Geas should have some sort of root or stun effect).

alfalolz

trgluestickz said:

alfalolz said:

trgluestickz said:

@asterdahl @noworries#8859 @nitocris83 @tripsofthrymr @kreatyve @terramak

Now that the PVP crowd has had some time to adjust their toons's gear for PVP, and matches have been happening, its become apparent that most players will be very tanky in PVP this mod.

We can stack more than twice the amount of HP I had anticipated us being able to reach on preview. 280k through 400k+ HP will be the norm for PVPers in general, with tanks being able to reach 450k and above easily.

In addition to high HP, players are also stacking lots of defense/DR and crit avoidance. We can get lots of deflection too in the form of shadowclad enchantment. Ring of sieging is also seeing a comeback with several PVPers slotting it for more DR. Some players have also taken to running valhalla set for even more damage reduction. Holy avenger enchantment is very popular among tanks this mod so far, though this may be dropped in favor of vorpal later on.

Certain classes also have very powerful healing abilities, such as barbarian and paladin.

Magnitudes for powers were also lowered during the later stages of preview testing.

We will only get tankyer this mod since several items such as negation enchantment, shadowclad enchantment, and the HP campaign boons currently are bugged. The HP boons don't grant any HP and these 2 enchantments reportedly don't grant any DR right now. After these items are fixed, players will probably become too tanky in PVP, especially paladins and barbarians.

So far, 40k through 80k armor pen is reachable, not yet sure if we can go beyond that. I was doing ok with 60k armor pen on my rogue but suspect I will need more later.

Because of the above, I urge the devs to scrap the daily power damage suppressor idea, we definitely won't need it.

Cheeses Christ why on earth would you want 80k armor pen in pvp ??? are you joking me???

Most classes dont have more then 20 armor, thus needed only 20 armor pen. For tanks, yea you def need more, but i bet you wont be able to kill in solo any tank with your 80k arm pen.

I am already able to solo kill tanks with 60k armor pen, its not easy but I can do it. 80k armor pen doesn't require me to lose much offense stats so stacking to 80k is unlikely to cause me to be unable to kill tanks.

As for how much armor pen I actually need, I'm still unsure how much I really need; I can only see the DR on their sheets and items they have on. I don't know how much they have coming from class features yet and how much of that is affected by armor pen in mod 16.

That all said, it is still possible that I could lose the ability to solo kill tanks as they continue to tweak their builds. Tanks in the 450k and below HP range are killable with my 60k armor pen but I don't think that is the limit of what they can reach in PVP.
I did see an OP with 700k HP recently, some of that was coming from his companion though.

I dont really beieve that you can kill a solid TANK with over 500k HP pool. Please make a video.

I run with 23k arm pen and thats pretty much enough for anyone unless its a tank. Ive tried stacking arm pen and still no way to kill a solid tank. So i would rather stack power and have 23k arm pen that is enough in most cases.

There is absolutely no way i can believe that yuo can have 80k arm pen and kill a tank. How much power do you have then? 40k?

trgluestickz

alfalolz said:

trgluestickz said:

alfalolz said:

trgluestickz said:

@asterdahl @noworries#8859 @nitocris83 @tripsofthrymr @kreatyve @terramak

Now that the PVP crowd has had some time to adjust their toons's gear for PVP, and matches have been happening, its become apparent that most players will be very tanky in PVP this mod.

We can stack more than twice the amount of HP I had anticipated us being able to reach on preview. 280k through 400k+ HP will be the norm for PVPers in general, with tanks being able to reach 450k and above easily.

In addition to high HP, players are also stacking lots of defense/DR and crit avoidance. We can get lots of deflection too in the form of shadowclad enchantment. Ring of sieging is also seeing a comeback with several PVPers slotting it for more DR. Some players have also taken to running valhalla set for even more damage reduction. Holy avenger enchantment is very popular among tanks this mod so far, though this may be dropped in favor of vorpal later on.

Certain classes also have very powerful healing abilities, such as barbarian and paladin.

Magnitudes for powers were also lowered during the later stages of preview testing.

We will only get tankyer this mod since several items such as negation enchantment, shadowclad enchantment, and the HP campaign boons currently are bugged. The HP boons don't grant any HP and these 2 enchantments reportedly don't grant any DR right now. After these items are fixed, players will probably become too tanky in PVP, especially paladins and barbarians.

So far, 40k through 80k armor pen is reachable, not yet sure if we can go beyond that. I was doing ok with 60k armor pen on my rogue but suspect I will need more later.

Because of the above, I urge the devs to scrap the daily power damage suppressor idea, we definitely won't need it.

Cheeses Christ why on earth would you want 80k armor pen in pvp ??? are you joking me???

Most classes dont have more then 20 armor, thus needed only 20 armor pen. For tanks, yea you def need more, but i bet you wont be able to kill in solo any tank with your 80k arm pen.

I am already able to solo kill tanks with 60k armor pen, its not easy but I can do it. 80k armor pen doesn't require me to lose much offense stats so stacking to 80k is unlikely to cause me to be unable to kill tanks.

As for how much armor pen I actually need, I'm still unsure how much I really need; I can only see the DR on their sheets and items they have on. I don't know how much they have coming from class features yet and how much of that is affected by armor pen in mod 16.

That all said, it is still possible that I could lose the ability to solo kill tanks as they continue to tweak their builds. Tanks in the 450k and below HP range are killable with my 60k armor pen but I don't think that is the limit of what they can reach in PVP.
I did see an OP with 700k HP recently, some of that was coming from his companion though.

I dont really beieve that you can kill a solid TANK with over 500k HP pool. Please make a video.

I run with 23k arm pen and thats pretty much enough for anyone unless its a tank. Ive tried stacking arm pen and still no way to kill a solid tank. So i would rather stack power and have 23k arm pen that is enough in most cases.

There is absolutely no way i can believe that yuo can have 80k arm pen and kill a tank. How much power do you have then? 40k?

Since I've never uploaded a video to a public space before, I won't be doing so for you. I don't know how and don't feel like bothering with it. We may encounter eachother in matches though and I'm sure I'll get chance to 1v1 a tank again.

Also, I didn't say I could kill a tank with above 500k HP, I said 450k and below. I have not gotten a chance to fight a tank with 500k+ HP so I don't know how it would go yet. Matches seem to have been dead this week and I have stopped queing owing to dead silence in the PVP chat and the new dungeon getting released.

I also said I had 60k armor pen and was thinking about moving up to 80k but hadn't done so yet.
I do know from counting up stat sources that my power won't drop to anywhere near 40k if I raise my armor pen to 80k. My power would increase to more than I have (which is around 80k) as I continue to update my toon and I could still have 80k armor pen at the same time. I also would have over 300k HP still.


Here is a little more info about my character:

I play a rogue assassin in case you missed that bit. I was running all heavy hitting single target dps attacks. I started out running bait and switch in place of lashing blade but quickly figured out I was tanky enough that I could just use all dps moves.

I had 320k HP during some fights and 370k in others.
In my first couple matches, I had 370k HP and less than 60k armor pen. For matches after that, I realized I was plenty tanky and could afford to drop my HP down to 320k and raise my armor pen to 60k. The latter worked better than the former.

With these same stats, I also had in the ballpark of 60 something k through 77k power. This is without pots, with pots I had more. If you are wondering why I said a range there, I was rapidly upgrading my companions over course of a few days and all 6 comp active bonuses were set to power when I finished upgrading them.

In case you hadn't heard about this yet, companion active bonuses do apply in domination PVP this mod.

Also, I wasn't running tenebrous enchantments and was improvising with a soulsight crystal instead of using envenomed storyteller's journal. I have since upgraded my journal for PVE but have yet to try it in PVP.


And now for an update on what I could reach statwise after counting things up:

I counted up various sources of armor pen recently and found I could increase it to 130k+ if I wanted to. I won't be doing so for now since that is probably way more than I need even vs a tank. That, and I'd have to buy and upgrade a lot of expensive stuff to raise it that high. With 130k armor pen, I would have to drop my power some but I'm not sure how much, my guess is around 50k or 60k would be max for power if I did this. My HP would need to drop below 300k as well.

For HP, I can definitely raise it to 400k+
I wasn't at my HP limit before and there are still a lot of things I could do to raise my HP further. I wouldn't be able to have extreme armor pen at the same time though. Around 70k through 90k max if I dicided to run this much HP.

trgluestickz

@alfalolz

Here are two screenshots of my sheet from today, I'm likely going to add another 8k armor pen soon and my power will drop into 80k range. I am fully potted in both images. The first one is me in PE with my pet desummoned, the second is me on the domination map.

quickfoot

When thinking about how much armor pen you need, we also need to (but shouldn't have to) figure out if the PVP "tenacity" buff stuff is actually working in PVP now. The "Armor Penetration is 60% less effective" stuff, and if it is working, do we still need some or all of it? I wonder, because I am fairly certain CC resist isn't working right in PVP, at least not for all CC powers. Same thing in PVE, some CC powers get through say Barbarians Rage, when it shouldn't. And then there is the fact that somethings that are supposed to buff damage resistance (to the supposed buffed cap of 80% DI), don't (at least not past the 50% DR cap from Defense stat). I'm also pretty sure that healing suppression isn't working anymore, for example the Sigil of the Paladin can heal you back to full health (but the DR isn't being *buffed* btw).

alfalolz

trgluestickz said:

@alfalolz

Here are two screenshots of my sheet from today, I'm likely going to add another 8k armor pen soon and my power will drop into 80k range. I am fully potted in both images. The first one is me in PE with my pet desummoned, the second is me on the domination map.

Dude, i only wish if i could meet you in pvp and absolutely MELT you down with almost zero deflect and crit avoidance. But unfortunately i play on Russian server and there is no absolute chance to 2 shot you nonstop. Anyways, keep on running with 75k arm pen i only could wish you luck.

trgluestickz

quickfoot#7851 said:

When thinking about how much armor pen you need, we also need to (but shouldn't have to) figure out if the PVP "tenacity" buff stuff is actually working in PVP now. The "Armor Penetration is 60% less effective" stuff, and if it is working, do we still need some or all of it? I wonder, because I am fairly certain CC resist isn't working right in PVP, at least not for all CC powers. Same thing in PVE, some CC powers get through say Barbarians Rage, when it shouldn't. And then there is the fact that somethings that are supposed to buff damage resistance (to the supposed buffed cap of 80% DI), don't (at least not past the 50% DR cap from Defense stat). I'm also pretty sure that healing suppression isn't working anymore, for example the Sigil of the Paladin can heal you back to full health (but the DR isn't being *buffed* btw).

My guess is there are 0 tenacity debuffs of any kind active, can't be sure without testing though. There is no longer a PVP debuff visible on PVP map and as you mentioned, heals and CCs appear to be full strength.