Resolution in the newest patch notes is unacceptable and is yet another show of ignorance. Tweaking is not the solution. Scaling system used is flawed at the core. Removal is the only acceptable solution.
If I made mistakes half this bad in my job, I wouldn't have a job tomorrow.
You are fast approaching the point where people will stop logging in.
13
adinosiiMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,294Arc User
I wonder if today's patch will fix the issue with maze engine dailies which have been unplayable because of the scaling (you get downscaled, but the mobs are many, many levels above you). This also makes the challenge campaign quests annoyingly hard.
This has been noted as a "known issue", but the patch notes do not mention this being fixed.
Is it just me or is anyone else hoping and praying that some significant change comes to this decaying game. Scouring forums in hopes of a dev that actually listens and is brave enough to speak out against the blatant disregard for the game in response to player feedback, testing, and desires. It is time that the developers and Arc as a whole look at overhauling the way they communicate with their gaming community because it is such a travesty to know that in the end it’s all about money to these suits... implementation of this mod has been SUCH A JOKE... The changes to this game other than the campaign are impossible to speak positively about. I cannot think of any game whatsoever in which it is negative to you if you level up you character and your gear, other than Neverwinter. I cannot this of a game in which developers spend time making things hard for players and implement the exact same rewards! WTF! I am in the process of selling everything on my accounts to be done with the game I have been playing for over 6 years. WHAT A SICK JOKE.... Çhill TFÓ Maxed (CW, pally, cleric, TR)
6
arcanjo86Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,093Arc User
another thing is mobs damage need to be lowered in tiamant, tank role paragons need to have all their paragon powers generate aggro, queue system need to apply 1 tank/1healer/3dps to all queues due to the removal of life steal skirmishs/cta events need healer and tank or we will stop queueing for dungeons/skirmish/trials and start log in for daily MEX on all chars and log off.
0
silverkeltMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,235Arc User
The piece meal fixes do not address the overall bad scheme and design, that you , at lvl 80, are somehow weaker then you are at lvl 70.
Until this is addressed , then there is no real fix to scaling.
In no way shape or form, is this acceptable. There has to be some progression methodology better then this.
I will probably give up this attempt after today, I have better things to do with my time, I have 17 days left of vip and then I will be taking a break until logic is finally restored at some point, this current model isnt feasible for either the players or game company, there is no real incentive to purchase anything whatsoever (progression capped, so whats the point) (companions "reworked" to make them all worthless.. so whats the point..
not much point in anything at the moment.
5
adinosiiMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,294Arc User
I have said this before ... in fact, I have said this multiple times before. The scaling is not fundamentally "in a good place" and just in need of a few tweaks. The very design is broken.
It is bad.
Scrap it.
The proper way to do this would be to implement proper proportional scaling. Say that I am at 75% of "maximum efficiency" for a particular stat at level 80, relative to the mobs I am fighting in that area. If I go to a different area, I should be proportionally just as strong - at 75% of whatever the value in that area is. Power and HP would have to be scaled down differently, but that can be done in a reasonable way.
This would mean that people would not get punished for leveling up too fast. This would mean that people would still see a benefit to improve things like enchants and so on. This would solve the issue of differences is scaling depending on where your stats come from (stats from mount bonuses, insignia, enchants, gear etc.. scale in different way now....it's a mess). This would mean that a maxed-out level 80 player would be a bit stronger than a newbie in a low level area. So be it.
Will anyone listen to me? Probably not.
So, I'm only doing the L80 content for now - something my wife is happy about, as I spend a lot less time on the game than I used to do.
Hoping for improvements...
11
silverkeltMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,235Arc User
I have a lot of books to catch up on, while I can watch netflix shows while I play , hard to read.
anything is better atm, Im sort of pissed I hit lvl 71 with some of my toons.
Wish I could turn it all off at lvl 70.. so I can just do a couple dungeons and a few weeklies and log off..
I have a lot of books to catch up on, while I can watch netflix shows while I play , hard to read.
anything is better atm, Im sort of pissed I hit lvl 71 with some of my toons.
Wish I could turn it all off at lvl 70.. so I can just do a couple dungeons and a few weeklies and log off..
The shame in this is even at level 70 you are item scaled in level 70 zones. Which means in the future in the level 80 zones they have you will be item scaled. Granted at 70 the IL scaling alone isn't as bad as level and IL scaling combined.
New scaling system is terrible. Stats of character is have not impact in new system. Character 16+ = character 23+. Their stats are equal! Why character with 15 stones equal character with 9 stones? Many dungeons is very hard. Malabog castle is equal fangbreaker island! Party is run one and the other equal time. Why are improve the character? Destroy the scaling system or leave it for level 70 and below. It's a easy solution for this problem and will suit the players.
hey, my lvl 70 pally had around 80k in all stats, now that im lvl 80 with 100k stats. when i visit lvl 70 zone i get scaled down to 45-50k in stats. by upgrading my character, i lost around 150k stats. WoRkS aS iNtEnDeD.
also solution. if it gets scaled down to rank 9. make the difference in stats reduced instead of getting lowered. example. I have enchant that gives 1000 stats. its supposed to be scaled to enchant with 500 stats. instead of getting lowered to 500, make the difference between them ( 500 ) lowered by 40% for example to 300. meaning that my 1000 stats enchant gives 800. boom fixed. I accept paypal as payment for development.
My problem with the scaling system is that it calls into question the entire mechanics of the game.
We are told that stats work in pairs; eg ArP vs Defence and that the maximum efficiency you can obtain is 100% (50% for Deflect and Crit Strike).
If that is true, no scaling is needed at all.
Going up levels and getting better gear cannot make your stats more effective once you exceed the cap for a level.
But if, for some insane reason scaling must stay (instead of making RIQ and up level 80 and making all non-levelling zones level 80) only 3 things should be scaled; Hit Points Power Weapon Damage
Everything else is hard capped by the system.
If it’s not then you are saying the system doesn’t work.
Dungeons also need to stop dropping equipment from mod 6. That old equipment needs to simply be moved to the Adventurer’s Seals store and grouped into categories (eg mod 6 gear, Mod 7-10 gear or whatever).
Actually trusting the game mechanics to work would actually keep the Hunt gear from Chult/Barovia relevant as well for players in a much better way. As that gear becomes more desirable once you are at cap for content.
Your stated goals for scaling have not been achieved; RLQ is still a speed run for a level 80 character that is properly geared and you have made RIQ inaccessible in a meaningful way to the vast majority of players instead of making it more accessible and balanced between BIS and new players.
Yet actually trusting your own mechanics would achieve your goal. It’s the scaling that breaks it.
Obsidian Moonlight - Paladin Obsidian Oath - Warlock A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
I wonder if today's patch will fix the issue with maze engine dailies which have been unplayable because of the scaling (you get downscaled, but the mobs are many, many levels above you). This also makes the challenge campaign quests annoyingly hard.
This has been noted as a "known issue", but the patch notes do not mention this being fixed.
i completed the maze engine dailies without any issues, they were fairly easy
Could someone remind me why we need scaling anyway in new system?
Most of stats have hard caps 50% or 100%, so there is not much need for scaling them. So people gone to old zone, and all these stats are capped. They feel easier, but they still not overpowered as the only affect chances and relative power up, not absolute. For important stats they hit cap on lv80 anyway, so new stats that will reach cap are not essential to the builds.
There is also scaling of bonding (it is scaled down to r7), but as it seems to be not needed as handled by stat cap.
The stats that might need scaling: HP, weapon damage, and power - these are essential damage and defense stats, all other are relative and capped. So we could just introduce hard cap for weapon damage, power, and HP in old zones (per class paragon or just global). This would be much simpler system than current, will achieve the same goal of making power similar, it is easier to code, and it will require much less work from CPU.
so i just tried ToNG after they "fixed" it in the last patch, 2nd last boss is still triggering way too many traps and final boss is still a joke, sure the souls are now killable (barely) but the rest of the mobs just run over you like a truck, by the time we got the boss halfway the whole platform was just mobs, probably around 20 adds, its a mess.. at that point you cant go after the almost unkillable souls anymore, just run around like a chicken and pray
First, I apologize for repeating my post from Mr. Foss' thread here, but some things must be repeated until they are actually read by the development team. The recent apology for some of the issues created by Mod 16 is appreciated. However, if Cryptic is truly looking to better listen to players, the development team must address the scaling issues. Scaling has been commented on more than any single issue I can remember since NW's initial launch, yet the development team still does not seem to grasp the gravity and magnitude of this issue.
As scaling exists now, progression and increased stats from upgrading enchantments is stopped at very low ranks in scaled zones. This breaks a fundamental mechanic of level and stat based adventure games, which is that as you level up upgrade your character's equipment, you become stronger. This is a critical flaw with the new scaling system that is not a "bug" but must be addressed.
So, understanding the development team's desire to make older content more difficult, there are several ways to approach fixing this issue.
1. Make all dungeons level 80 and remove capping, but keep IL scaling for power. This approach is likely the best. It does require adjusting creatures in the existing dungeons, but this has to be done a anyway to make them playable again. I also suggest only scaling power, as power is the measure directly related to damage. This way people don't go from having met the minimum stats to being reduced below the minimum stats in the older content, as is happening now. It also allows for character progression to continue.
2. Keep the scaling as it is now (not recommended) but allow for some smaller increases in stats due to each enchantments rank a over the capped base rank value. While not as good of a method as 1, above, this at least allows for some minor sense of progression. A rank 6 bonding should never give the same stats as a rank 15 bonding in a dungeon. If it does, then it's actually better to use lower level enchants in the L70 content to avoid the additional IL scaling. Let's face it, that just makes no sense, ever!
3. Some other option that you think of that allows for some sort of progression and doesn't penalize players with scaling for having higher level enchantments.
The new level cap has made having any L70 content obsolete. People will typically spend only a week or two between L70 and L80. Therefore, the most obvious and best solution is 1 above, to make all current L70 content into L80 content.
No matter what, some sense of progression must be restored for NW to remain a viable world. Please take your own words to heart and consider the hundreds of player posts commenting on scaling and do something to truly address the core issues.
it takes 2-3 weeks depend on how easier with specific weekly heroic encounters to get 25 for "ultimate' mark, sound about right on value and cost. nothing as fast or slow. problem with elite encounters like Chult or Barovia BHE are often ghost town, very hard to get when many players got done after first hours of weeklies, then rest of week, rarely anyone shows up. i see many rather do demon heroic runs all week.
Remove Scaling for Dungeons and for Zones NOW. Its very late to do it but NOW is the right time. i mean NOW, not totmorrow or next thursday, i mean NOW just YET.
You see all the negative Feedback of this scaling, it is horrible what it does to the game at all. Everywhere leaver, no one wants to spend money on game that has nothing of value.
The ppl wo are lvl 80 now (nearly everyone) can not all do lotmm. its the most 10% that can do it. all the other 90% can do ME and … nothing. "Old" content is behind that scaling that makes us so weak. We can not progress to be better cause scaling makes progress useless. So never can we do "old" contant again.
New Player that quest with too fast XP gain (using azures or guild boons) are scaled in questing zones not able to do the questline anymore.
New Player that quest with too fast XP gain (using azures or guild boons) are scaled in questing zones not able to do the questline anymore.
Just that is terrible and terrible design. A new player joining this game - im talking about people that usually play video games or mmorpg - is gonna lvl to 80 because "shiny dungeon released with expansion". And this new player is gonna like it, pretty zones, fast leveling, nice story line, blah blah. Then the gate of the 20k is going to strike this player in the face, reaching the cap of 18kish with ME gear. So he will be told eventually by guildies or others that boons bring 1750 iL even if they are useless. Which is quite a lot iL... So he will go do dailies and stuffs to get the boons that Mister Foss insist all players finish through campains. That new player will finish dailies eventually, but with some difficulty, and at a slow pace. And then after few hours of gaming like that, he will just never come back.
If that new player stays, he will then want to make his daily rADs by going through RQs. But then he will see the apocalypse in there:
-Wraiths under speed in VT -Tears with so many HP in msp -Unkillable souls in Tong by the average joes. -Lava in elol hitting for hundreds and hundreds of thousands. -Formorian warriors in MC one shotting him in the face while the boss barely scratches his head for 25k -Clumsy aggro in CR and the Sisters (that might be at the number of 4 depending how the fight goes) with Ardor in last boss hitting people for 269k. -And so on...
I mean, what a disaster for us of course but we're used to it, we know how to deal with it more or less, we can still finish those dungeons if we're here since a while now and if we know the mechanisms that so many forgot/avoided because of cheese AA or bubble OP or whatnot. But a new player???? I have been pugging dungeons with a guildie lately, because i never mind pugging. But oh boy the disaster. If it wasnt for the two of us old timers in those runs, those new players would never had finished, since we got to duo every single boss..
I really do wish the success of the game, i am not having death wishes or anything. But if i had yet to be a new player in this disaster, i am really not sure i would stay.
Guys check what i found today, these guys even scaled artifacts. This image is from cloak tower I don't care as a 21k char i can complete more or less every dungeon, but for a newer char this genius idea of scaling gives him a horrible gameplay experience
I know a big patch is coming out but yet I am worried that will be again something that will apply to every dungeons evenly and not take in account how individual dungeons work. When mod 16 hit I was 10K IL now I am almost 20K IL. I can pay only RLQ and RIQ and I find then most workable with some ghastly exceptions. I did not finished yet most campaigns for any RAQ dungeon though strangely according the board I can sign up for them. Ironically if I get to 20K I can do LoMM … . But that is not the issue I have -- The issue is Valindra's tower and Malaborg's Castle. The mechanics of these 2 are off... not just the scaling. I was put in VT like 6 times (each time more then 1 hr) -- the groups finished only 2x and not because of the lack of trying or not being at appropriate IL level. Valindra's summoned warriors span way to fast but even that can be survived -- what kills the group is the 2nd area attack. If the group is lucky someone with long range attack survives and hence the 2 finishes. If not (like my paladin survived it 2x) then just all has to start again. The other day we were placed in MC -- took 1 hour to finish. I needed 15 resurrections (compared to Demogorgon where most time I need none; I play as tank there and hold him with a manageable damage to me). The rest of the party was not better in terms of resurrection needs. Whenever I tried agro I was run over in seconds an killed on spot. The healer was exhausted and run out of divinity and at the end we all agree that it is not worth our time and energy. Again it was not because of low IL or lack of trying! In my opinion it is important that dungeons are looked at individually as some RIQ dungeons now are almost at expert level.
Comments
If I made mistakes half this bad in my job, I wouldn't have a job tomorrow.
You are fast approaching the point where people will stop logging in.
This has been noted as a "known issue", but the patch notes do not mention this being fixed.
Çhill TFÓ
Maxed (CW, pally, cleric, TR)
Until this is addressed , then there is no real fix to scaling.
In no way shape or form, is this acceptable. There has to be some progression methodology better then this.
I will probably give up this attempt after today, I have better things to do with my time, I have 17 days left of vip and then I will be taking a break until logic is finally restored at some point, this current model isnt feasible for either the players or game company, there is no real incentive to purchase anything whatsoever (progression capped, so whats the point) (companions "reworked" to make them all worthless.. so whats the point..
not much point in anything at the moment.
It is bad.
Scrap it.
The proper way to do this would be to implement proper proportional scaling. Say that I am at 75% of "maximum efficiency" for a particular stat at level 80, relative to the mobs I am fighting in that area. If I go to a different area, I should be proportionally just as strong - at 75% of whatever the value in that area is. Power and HP would have to be scaled down differently, but that can be done in a reasonable way.
This would mean that people would not get punished for leveling up too fast. This would mean that people would still see a benefit to improve things like enchants and so on. This would solve the issue of differences is scaling depending on where your stats come from (stats from mount bonuses, insignia, enchants, gear etc.. scale in different way now....it's a mess). This would mean that a maxed-out level 80 player would be a bit stronger than a newbie in a low level area. So be it.
Will anyone listen to me? Probably not.
So, I'm only doing the L80 content for now - something my wife is happy about, as I spend a lot less time on the game than I used to do.
anything is better atm, Im sort of pissed I hit lvl 71 with some of my toons.
Wish I could turn it all off at lvl 70.. so I can just do a couple dungeons and a few weeklies and log off..
Stats of character is have not impact in new system. Character 16+ = character 23+. Their stats
are equal! Why character with 15 stones equal character with 9 stones?
Many dungeons is very hard. Malabog castle is equal fangbreaker island! Party is run one and the other equal time.
Why are improve the character? Destroy the scaling system or leave it for level 70 and below. It's a easy solution for this problem and will suit the players.
by upgrading my character, i lost around 150k stats. WoRkS aS iNtEnDeD.
also solution. if it gets scaled down to rank 9.
make the difference in stats reduced instead of getting lowered.
example. I have enchant that gives 1000 stats.
its supposed to be scaled to enchant with 500 stats. instead of getting lowered to 500, make the difference between them ( 500 ) lowered by 40% for example to 300. meaning that my 1000 stats enchant gives 800. boom fixed. I accept paypal as payment for development.
We are told that stats work in pairs; eg ArP vs Defence and that the maximum efficiency you can obtain is 100% (50% for Deflect and Crit Strike).
If that is true, no scaling is needed at all.
Going up levels and getting better gear cannot make your stats more effective once you exceed the cap for a level.
But if, for some insane reason scaling must stay (instead of making RIQ and up level 80 and making all non-levelling zones level 80) only 3 things should be scaled;
Hit Points
Power
Weapon Damage
Everything else is hard capped by the system.
If it’s not then you are saying the system doesn’t work.
Dungeons also need to stop dropping equipment from mod 6. That old equipment needs to simply be moved to the Adventurer’s Seals store and grouped into categories (eg mod 6 gear, Mod 7-10 gear or whatever).
Actually trusting the game mechanics to work would actually keep the Hunt gear from Chult/Barovia relevant as well for players in a much better way. As that gear becomes more desirable once you are at cap for content.
Your stated goals for scaling have not been achieved; RLQ is still a speed run for a level 80 character that is properly geared and you have made RIQ inaccessible in a meaningful way to the vast majority of players instead of making it more accessible and balanced between BIS and new players.
Yet actually trusting your own mechanics would achieve your goal. It’s the scaling that breaks it.
Obsidian Oath - Warlock
A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
Most of stats have hard caps 50% or 100%, so there is not much need for scaling them. So people gone to old zone, and all these stats are capped. They feel easier, but they still not overpowered as the only affect chances and relative power up, not absolute. For important stats they hit cap on lv80 anyway, so new stats that will reach cap are not essential to the builds.
There is also scaling of bonding (it is scaled down to r7), but as it seems to be not needed as handled by stat cap.
The stats that might need scaling: HP, weapon damage, and power - these are essential damage and defense stats, all other are relative and capped. So we could just introduce hard cap for weapon damage, power, and HP in old zones (per class paragon or just global). This would be much simpler system than current, will achieve the same goal of making power similar, it is easier to code, and it will require much less work from CPU.
https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/categories/player-feedback-pc
https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1248057/easy-solution-for-scaling
As scaling exists now, progression and increased stats from upgrading enchantments is stopped at very low ranks in scaled zones. This breaks a fundamental mechanic of level and stat based adventure games, which is that as you level up upgrade your character's equipment, you become stronger. This is a critical flaw with the new scaling system that is not a "bug" but must be addressed.
So, understanding the development team's desire to make older content more difficult, there are several ways to approach fixing this issue.
1. Make all dungeons level 80 and remove capping, but keep IL scaling for power. This approach is likely the best. It does require adjusting creatures in the existing dungeons, but this has to be done a anyway to make them playable again. I also suggest only scaling power, as power is the measure directly related to damage. This way people don't go from having met the minimum stats to being reduced below the minimum stats in the older content, as is happening now. It also allows for character progression to continue.
2. Keep the scaling as it is now (not recommended) but allow for some smaller increases in stats due to each enchantments rank a over the capped base rank value. While not as good of a method as 1, above, this at least allows for some minor sense of progression. A rank 6 bonding should never give the same stats as a rank 15 bonding in a dungeon. If it does, then it's actually better to use lower level enchants in the L70 content to avoid the additional IL scaling. Let's face it, that just makes no sense, ever!
3. Some other option that you think of that allows for some sort of progression and doesn't penalize players with scaling for having higher level enchantments.
The new level cap has made having any L70 content obsolete. People will typically spend only a week or two between L70 and L80. Therefore, the most obvious and best solution is 1 above, to make all current L70 content into L80 content.
No matter what, some sense of progression must be restored for NW to remain a viable world. Please take your own words to heart and consider the hundreds of player posts commenting on scaling and do something to truly address the core issues.
Talia (W)
Taragon (DC)
Tabbatha (OP)
Tanya (F)
Tasha (SW)
problem with elite encounters like Chult or Barovia BHE are often ghost town, very hard to get when many players got done after first hours of weeklies, then rest of week, rarely anyone shows up. i see many rather do demon heroic runs all week.
Obsidian Oath - Warlock
A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
Its very late to do it but NOW is the right time.
i mean NOW, not totmorrow or next thursday, i mean NOW just YET.
You see all the negative Feedback of this scaling, it is horrible what it does to the game at all.
Everywhere leaver, no one wants to spend money on game that has nothing of value.
The ppl wo are lvl 80 now (nearly everyone) can not all do lotmm. its the most 10% that can do it. all the other 90% can do ME and … nothing. "Old" content is behind that scaling that makes us so weak. We can not progress to be better cause scaling makes progress useless. So never can we do "old" contant again.
New Player that quest with too fast XP gain (using azures or guild boons) are scaled in questing zones not able to do the questline anymore.
Stop it.
Stop it NOW.
Remove scaling at all.
NOW
If that new player stays, he will then want to make his daily rADs by going through RQs. But then he will see the apocalypse in there:
-Wraiths under speed in VT
-Tears with so many HP in msp
-Unkillable souls in Tong by the average joes.
-Lava in elol hitting for hundreds and hundreds of thousands.
-Formorian warriors in MC one shotting him in the face while the boss barely scratches his head for 25k
-Clumsy aggro in CR and the Sisters (that might be at the number of 4 depending how the fight goes) with Ardor in last boss hitting people for 269k.
-And so on...
I mean, what a disaster for us of course but we're used to it, we know how to deal with it more or less, we can still finish those dungeons if we're here since a while now and if we know the mechanisms that so many forgot/avoided because of cheese AA or bubble OP or whatnot.
But a new player???? I have been pugging dungeons with a guildie lately, because i never mind pugging. But oh boy the disaster. If it wasnt for the two of us old timers in those runs, those new players would never had finished, since we got to duo every single boss..
I really do wish the success of the game, i am not having death wishes or anything. But if i had yet to be a new player in this disaster, i am really not sure i would stay.
Obsidian Oath - Warlock
A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
I don't care as a 21k char i can complete more or less every dungeon, but for a newer char this genius idea of scaling gives him a horrible gameplay experience
The other day we were placed in MC -- took 1 hour to finish. I needed 15 resurrections (compared to Demogorgon where most time I need none; I play as tank there and hold him with a manageable damage to me). The rest of the party was not better in terms of resurrection needs. Whenever I tried agro I was run over in seconds an killed on spot. The healer was exhausted and run out of divinity and at the end we all agree that it is not worth our time and energy. Again it was not because of low IL or lack of trying!
In my opinion it is important that dungeons are looked at individually as some RIQ dungeons now are almost at expert level.