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Mod 16 Feat sistem

dingrongdingrong Posts: 55Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
"each paragon path will have 5 pairs of feats where you get to choose one of the two feats in each pair to customize your play. With this change we can offer more unique choices"

only 5 pairs ? And we can chose one of 2? So every feat u choose will be present on 1/2 of all characters same class/paragon?!

How is that "UNIQUE" ? there is only 32 posible combinations

a proposition : give us 10 feats and freedom to choose ANY 5 .. so we will have 30240 possible combination rather then 32
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  • adders79#8251 adders79 Posts: 6Member Arc User
    but at the moment there are less than 32 combinations that people use. Looks at GWF there are maybe 2-3 different variants people run but those are almost identical to each other. Yes there are others available but you are crippling yourself selecting some. If all 10 feats are useable it is more variety than currently exists
  • dingrongdingrong Posts: 55Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    yes, but why settle on more then current 2-3? .. i say lets touch the sky , u say cockroach is bigger then ant
  • mdarkangel#4696 mdarkangel Posts: 245Member Arc User
    All we can hope for is that all 32 choices will be playable for the aspects the feats provide. At least then only 1 out of every 32 characters will be the same instead of what we have now.
  • sgtpostal#4408 sgtpostal Posts: 220Member Arc User
    dingrong said:

    yes, but why settle on more then current 2-3? .. i say lets touch the sky , u say cockroach is bigger then ant</blockquo(raises finger) ya technicaly a cockroach is BIGGER than an ant lol

  • hustin1hustin1 Posts: 2,560Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    This demands better communication and explanation from the devs. The first thing I thought of was the part in 1984 (which I actually read in 1984) where the Ministry of Truth reported an increase in the chocolate ration to a certain amount. In reality, however, the new amount was actually lower than the previous ration.
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  • kvetkvet Posts: 2,657Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    It's more like a move toward 5e rules around feats rather than the massive and confusing mess that is feats in 3e and 4e (and Pathfinder *gag*). In 5e, players only get a small handful of feats - yes, it's not an either or like this, but nevertheless, this does simply the system a great deal and move it toward 5e rules. I suggest you don't judge it until you've tried it, the selections options are meaningful.
  • athena#9205 athena Posts: 569Member Arc User
    I'm worried about the class changes where 3 paragons are moved to 2 feat choice paths. In all my classes except HR there were only 2 good possible paragon paths, but HR has 3 good ones. I have a bad feeling they will be killing the trapper paragon to embellish the ranged one, that i never liked.
  • minotaur2857minotaur2857 Posts: 1,079Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User

    All we can hope for is that all 32 choices will be playable for the aspects the feats provide. At least then only 1 out of every 32 characters will be the same instead of what we have now.

    This will only happen if they put 2 feats that you want both of (and up to now could take both of) against each other, and no doubt the min-maxers will work out which is best. The old system at least there were differences in degree (maybe you took the odd 2/3 or 3/5 and somebody else split slightly differently).
  • callumf#9018 callumf Posts: 924Member Arc User
    kvet said:

    It's more like a move toward 5e rules around feats rather than the massive and confusing mess that is feats in 3e and 4e (and Pathfinder *gag*). In 5e, players only get a small handful of feats - yes, it's not an either or like this, but nevertheless, this does simply the system a great deal and move it toward 5e rules. I suggest you don't judge it until you've tried it, the selections options are meaningful.

    Let us be honest - ANYTHING which makes the game less confusing has to be a good thing.

    I am also a fan of simplicity.

    Fighters should melee and be very hard to kill and protect their team
    Mages should cast spells, be squishy but powerful
    Archers/Rangers should be less powerful than mages, harder to kill than mages
    Clerics should be reasonably hard to kill but provide healing to the Fighter taking the damage
    Rogues/Thieves should be squishy but use stealth to backstab their opponents - high burst DPS

    That is what D&D was back in the 70s and it was great
  • mentinmindmakermentinmindmaker Posts: 620Member Arc User
    Currently, if you deviate from the standard 'best' feat selection you have a big chance of nerfing your character seriously. Which means that for the players that care t olook up build advice, everyone is running with the same builds more or less.

    The players that do not do research on the Internet typically miss out and have substandard builds.

    So what they are removing is to a large extent not the variation between builds(there is little anyways for proper builds), but the opportunity to nerf yourself seriously(by not following a tested and functioning build).
  • romromeroromromero Posts: 24Member Arc User
    Will humans get a different bonus for the 3 additional heroic feats that they will no longer get when mod 16 hits?
  • rjc9000rjc9000 Posts: 1,957Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    edited February 22
    dingrong said:

    "each paragon path will have 5 pairs of feats where you get to choose one of the two feats in each pair to customize your play. With this change we can offer more unique choices"

    only 5 pairs ? And we can chose one of 2? So every feat u choose will be present on 1/2 of all characters same class/paragon?!

    How is that "UNIQUE" ? there is only 32 posible combinations

    a proposition : give us 10 feats and freedom to choose ANY 5 .. so we will have 30240 possible combination rather then 32

    I think the best comparison would be Killing Floor 2's skills, which also rolls with the "5 pairs of 2" system, with each "pair" unlocked with each level.



    And if we're going with the KF2 comparisons, then yes, every player of the same class (and presumably paragon, I can't imagine GF having DPS feats on a tank path) will have exactly the same feats.

    I think the above quote summed it up best:

    The description makes the new Feat system sound like they're replacing the Feat Trees with a set of class-specific Boons.

    ---

    Currently, if you deviate from the standard 'best' feat selection you have a big chance of nerfing your character seriously. Which means that for the players that care t olook up build advice, everyone is running with the same builds more or less.

    The players that do not do research on the Internet typically miss out and have substandard builds.

    So what they are removing is to a large extent not the variation between builds(there is little anyways for proper builds), but the opportunity to nerf yourself seriously(by not following a tested and functioning build).

    I get the plan was to make it so newbies don't need to spend 5 hours researching before they can hop in and have fun.
    I also get that the plan was to provide alternatives due to many feat choices right now being alternatives between "extremely good" or "extremely bad".

    But I am not sure giving us only 5 choices was the way to do it. To me, it implicitly tells me that I am too dumb to figure out what is good or bad on my own.

  • mentinmindmakermentinmindmaker Posts: 620Member Arc User
    edited February 22
    rjc9000 said:


    But I am not sure giving us only 5 choices was the way to do it. To me, it implicitly tells me that I am too dumb to figure out what is good or bad on my own.

    You are :) Well, the problem is not really you.. but the current system is so complicated and has so many non-obvious dependencies that it takes the work of several people over an extended time to figure out the best solutions. It is not really a one-man project.

  • pteriaspterias Posts: 655Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    edited February 22
    To expand on what @kvet was saying, 3E and 4E feats were boatloads of little this'n'that dials, mods, and circumstantial bonuses. It was a rats nest. Most of them were useless, some of them comically so, while others were all but mandatory. It wasn't long before those hundreds of feat options turned into a few "correct" choices amongst a LOT of wrong options. It's been the same in this game. Many of the choices we currently have are illusions. You can either choose one of the few winning options, or you can accidentally/deliberately gimp your character.

    In 5E, there are far fewer feats (and they are entirely optional at that), but they are much more meaningful. The average 5E feat is like 3-4 3E/4E feats. If they follow that philosophy here, you could see quite a bit of meaningful variation in that "32 combinations". I'm not betting on it, but we could actually see MORE viable variations between characters if done right.

    Also, it shouldn't require a room full of rocket scientists 6 weeks to tell the rest of us which end is up.

  • dingrongdingrong Posts: 55Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    well, i was hoping that this post will unite players on idea that MORE choices are better then FEW .. but , i see that is not the case .. well , anyways lets w8 for preview and see
  • kvetkvet Posts: 2,657Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    Too many choices results in what's called "Analysis Paralysis" (Ref: https://www.google.com/search?q=analysis+paralysis). Basically, it means there are so many choices that you can't figure out what choice to make. In game terms, that means since most players can't figure out the "best" path - they don't. In some cases this results in poor builds, in others it results in cookie cutters when someone spends the time doing the analysis and writing up their results as a recommend build. I'm not saying using someone's build is a bad idea, my point here is that whether you have 30K possible choices or 32 - the end result will still be one or two viable builds (as far as the meta is concerned), five or six marginal builds, and a pile of poor ones.

    Since that's the case, there is no point in having 30K choices when 29992 of them result in poor builds. Instead, they can make it so the feats are all meaningful and (perhaps) move the needle up and instead of only maybe six or eight variants being usable, maybe twelve or so will be now. In other words, with fewer more meaningful choices, you may even see the number of VIABLE options increase.
  • dingrongdingrong Posts: 55Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    you have a point .. just give us 1 quick build with all predetermined powers/boons/feats , who is going to waste time with character building at all? :dizzy:
  • theycallmetomutheycallmetomu Posts: 1,766Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    Meaningful choices are pro. I like feats to the extent that you can slowly power up, but there's really no need for such a massive onslaught of feats.
  • thefiresidecatthefiresidecat Posts: 2,877Member Arc User
    given their history it isn't 32 choices or even if it was done th eother way 30000 choices.. because knowing their history most of the choices will be garbage. lol. we haven't seen the trees yet.. and then when one is too powerful they'll nerf it so even less choices are available..

    I do agree though. please let us choose any 5 of the ten.
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  • thefiresidecatthefiresidecat Posts: 2,877Member Arc User

    I'm worried about the class changes where 3 paragons are moved to 2 feat choice paths. In all my classes except HR there were only 2 good possible paragon paths, but HR has 3 good ones. I have a bad feeling they will be killing the trapper paragon to embellish the ranged one, that i never liked.

    we have two paragon trees. hopefully one of them is more or less like trapper or combat
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  • lantern22lantern22 Posts: 822Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    rjc9000 said:

    dingrong said:

    "each paragon path will have 5 pairs of feats where you get to choose one of the two feats in each pair to customize your play. With this change we can offer more unique choices"

    only 5 pairs ? And we can chose one of 2? So every feat u choose will be present on 1/2 of all characters same class/paragon?!

    How is that "UNIQUE" ? there is only 32 posible combinations

    a proposition : give us 10 feats and freedom to choose ANY 5 .. so we will have 30240 possible combination rather then 32

    I think the best comparison would be Killing Floor 2's skills, which also rolls with the "5 pairs of 2" system, with each "pair" unlocked with each level.



    And if we're going with the KF2 comparisons, then yes, every player of the same class (and presumably paragon, I can't imagine GF having DPS feats on a tank path) will have exactly the same feats.

    I think the above quote summed it up best:

    The description makes the new Feat system sound like they're replacing the Feat Trees with a set of class-specific Boons.

    ---

    Currently, if you deviate from the standard 'best' feat selection you have a big chance of nerfing your character seriously. Which means that for the players that care t olook up build advice, everyone is running with the same builds more or less.

    The players that do not do research on the Internet typically miss out and have substandard builds.

    So what they are removing is to a large extent not the variation between builds(there is little anyways for proper builds), but the opportunity to nerf yourself seriously(by not following a tested and functioning build).

    I get the plan was to make it so newbies don't need to spend 5 hours researching before they can hop in and have fun.
    I also get that the plan was to provide alternatives due to many feat choices right now being alternatives between "extremely good" or "extremely bad".

    But I am not sure giving us only 5 choices was the way to do it. To me, it implicitly tells me that I am too dumb to figure out what is good or bad on my own.
    I agree.

    Wasn't too hard to look up builds, and bugged feats aside, it also isn't too hard to figure whether most feats are going to be any good or not.

    This is dumbing the system right down, and from first appearances probably too much for my liking (noted we have to wait and see).

    Mod 16 seems to be the Neverwinter Frontal Lobotomy. I just hope it frees up developer resources and we can get some new races, classes (Monk please), encounters (Fireball for Mages please), more content etc. so that there is a positive to this. Otherwise this is one step away from being Gauntlet the Arcade game (if anyone else can remember that one).

    And no matter what they do, there will always be a "best" build or two that will dominate
  • thefiresidecatthefiresidecat Posts: 2,877Member Arc User

    All we can hope for is that all 32 choices will be playable for the aspects the feats provide. At least then only 1 out of every 32 characters will be the same instead of what we have now.

    This will only happen if they put 2 feats that you want both of (and up to now could take both of) against each other, and no doubt the min-maxers will work out which is best. The old system at least there were differences in degree (maybe you took the odd 2/3 or 3/5 and somebody else split slightly differently).
    I'd be even happier with the old point system letting us split between. in games like this I am NOT a fan of simplicity. what makes it fun is learning how to min max. I want a learning curve. I do'nt want full plug and play. that makes it very very dull. I even miss the old artifact refining system.
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  • tgwolftgwolf Posts: 209Member Arc User
    Because Quality of choice is superior to Quantity of choice.

    You really think builds right now are any different?

    Current Meta:

    5000000 possible choices.

    BiS Build
    BiS Build
    Garbage Build
    Garbage Build
    Garbage Build
    Garbage Build
    Slightly less optimal build but necessary because of a playstyle difference
    Garbage Build
    Garbage Build
    Garbage Build
    Garbage Build
    Build with differences in Gear cause why not.
    Garbage Build
    Garbage Build
    Garbage Build
    Garbage Build
    ....etc.

    You don't need a lot of choices for any other reason but to mess around and honestly the extent of "messing around" in the game already is what results in players being terrible at the game and unable to actually clear content as intended.

    If you did CR at anything much higher than 14.5k yes I'm talking about you. The ones who did but are equally capable of doing so in a full 13k group are the exception.
  • checkmatein3checkmatein3 Posts: 521Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    edited February 25
    dingrong said:

    "each paragon path will have 5 pairs of feats where you get to choose one of the two feats in each pair to customize your play. With this change we can offer more unique choices"

    only 5 pairs ? And we can chose one of 2? So every feat u choose will be present on 1/2 of all characters same class/paragon?!

    How is that "UNIQUE" ? there is only 32 posible combinations

    a proposition : give us 10 feats and freedom to choose ANY 5 .. so we will have 30240 possible combination rather then 32

    Actually, its only 252 different combinations. But its still more than 32.

    The math is not 10x9x8x7x6 = 30,240. Rather the 5 feat choices are considered a set where order is not necessary. Thus, the first feat, selected can also be taken as the last feat, as long as no feat is taken twice. Therefore, the correct math is 10/5 x 9/4 x 8/3 x 7/2 x 6/1 = 252 combinations.

    It would be the same, for example, if you go to a restaurant, and you can choose any 1 entree with 3 side dishes. From entrees, you can select from any 10. From side dishes, you can select from any 20. The 3 sides dishes have no order in the choice, as long as you don't choose the same one.

    Total number of combinations is not 10x20x19x18 = 68,400. Rather its, 10/1 x 20/3 x 19/2 x 18/1 = 11,400.

    But your point is well taken. To announce that limiting the choice to 32 gives MORE choices is not honest.

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  • thefiresidecatthefiresidecat Posts: 2,877Member Arc User

    kvet said:

    It's more like a move toward 5e rules around feats rather than the massive and confusing mess that is feats in 3e and 4e (and Pathfinder *gag*). In 5e, players only get a small handful of feats - yes, it's not an either or like this, but nevertheless, this does simply the system a great deal and move it toward 5e rules. I suggest you don't judge it until you've tried it, the selections options are meaningful.

    Let us be honest - ANYTHING which makes the game less confusing has to be a good thing.

    I am also a fan of simplicity.

    Fighters should melee and be very hard to kill and protect their team
    Mages should cast spells, be squishy but powerful
    Archers/Rangers should be less powerful than mages, harder to kill than mages
    Clerics should be reasonably hard to kill but provide healing to the Fighter taking the damage
    Rogues/Thieves should be squishy but use stealth to backstab their opponents - high burst DPS

    That is what D&D was back in the 70s and it was great
    Maybe that is how d and d was in the 70's maybe but it would fail badly in this game. we'd be back to the meta of healer tank and three cws. bring back the complexity... stop with the dumb downededed nesses.. make neverwinter great again
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  • pteriaspterias Posts: 655Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    I think the counter argument is boiling down to a few meaningful options are better than tons of meaningless options. Obviously that's assuming the new options will be meaningful. We'll have to wait and see.

    As an added bonus, fewer feats would be fewer places for the code to go haywire. We all know how haywire the feats have always been. :wink:
  • thefiresidecatthefiresidecat Posts: 2,877Member Arc User
    edited February 25
    pterias said:

    I think the counter argument is boiling down to a few meaningful options are better than tons of meaningless options. Obviously that's assuming the new options will be meaningful. We'll have to wait and see.

    As an added bonus, fewer feats would be fewer places for the code to go haywire. We all know how haywire the feats have always been. :wink:

    but even at ten options with 5 dichotomies is less than most classes had before that were indeed meaningful. yes a lot of the trees had been nerfed to the ground but there were still a number of classes that had more than one paragon and more than one class choice. best instance there are two ways to play and the realistic option is one way to play.. and what happens when they decide they need to nerf one of those? (you know that's going to happen..) I really dislike being given one way to play the game. it's going to make things very boring
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  • gripnir78gripnir78 Posts: 226Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User

    All we can hope for is that all 32 choices will be playable for the aspects the feats provide. At least then only 1 out of every 32 characters will be the same instead of what we have now.

    This will only happen if they put 2 feats that you want both of (and up to now could take both of) against each other, and no doubt the min-maxers will work out which is best. The old system at least there were differences in degree (maybe you took the odd 2/3 or 3/5 and somebody else split slightly differently).
    I'd be even happier with the old point system letting us split between. in games like this I am NOT a fan of simplicity. what makes it fun is learning how to min max. I want a learning curve. I do'nt want full plug and play. that makes it very very dull. I even miss the old artifact refining system.
    I can see your point - that is when you actually enjoy a finding fine build yourself - like you or me.
    Thing is current state of the game was such a mess that most new comers seeing how complicated it is (no to mention that some feats/skills do not work as inscribed :D) ended up on forums/internet reading/using some1 elses builds.
    Now - even a single player MMOs or pen and paper one always had a variety of choices, out of witch just a small sample was really usefull. With time there was always a ultimate build for any class. And while in P&P games a GM could quite easy disable souch build putting it in non standard situation, all computer adatpations are in fact limited (no matter how much options you have those always runs out) and its always end up in ulti builds and meta teams.
    So in fact having a multiple options is a nice thing, but in most of cases it just mean that it takes more time to find out a new ulti build. Thats it. If however there would be lets say 2-3 comparable builds it wont be important if those were taken out of 30 or 30k options.
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