checkmatein3Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 525Arc User
I will attempt to answer, Adinosii.
The current state of the GF will attract two kinds of players:
The first kind of player will be the new player who thinks that the GF is one of two tanks in the game. Expecting a game to follow the trinity of roles, the GF would be chosen for that role. The new player would try and build the GF that way, with high hit points, lots of defense, minimal damage, and debuffing the damage of enemies. This player will be disappointed to find that parties do not want the GF in the role of the tanky tank. This player will either quit the character out of frustration (and maybe the game) or start reading guides or asking advice to change their build.
The second kind of player is one who has either gone through the above and/or knows enough about the GF in the game to build a dps monster OR a supplemental buff bot. When the disappointment clears, the extravagant damage that a GF can give out when expertly and uniquely specced for dps will make the player salivate. The cost of achieving such a spec in some cases is a lot of investment (since the GF is going for in game items that are also wanted by other dps classes, or that rarely drop [survivor wraps]), but the player will please themselves with the output of the GF in comparison to other classes, and take all the trolling in stride, and defend the dps GF spec on forums because of the investment needed to get to its specific setup. The only lack of satisfaction for the dps GF player will be that he might find himself perturbed at how to get into parties in high end dungeons, because the queue system does not recognize him as dps. So, premades are usually the way to go, and he now competes directly with other dps classes, and some in the player community might avoid the dps GF as a punishment for doing something THEY think the GF should not do, or they just have other dps friends. Either way, a large and solid FRIEND base is needed for end game dps GF players. For the player who chooses to be the supplemental buff bot, they must realize that they are the filler, the add-on. It does not mean that a GF is not easily added, but the GF is added over a 2nd dps slot, not the OP, and usually not over a 2nd DC (that might change in the next mod). Also, in this setup, the GF is still competing against a dps, or another buffer, and it is up to the party lead to know what they want. However, the buffing of the GF is so universal that any buff GF can do the job credibly. So, it comes down to availability. A buff GF will do the job. NO special skill needed. However, the player must be resigned to be chosen as an add-in. For random queues, the team might moan if the GF comes in instead of the OP. And a main GF that must do the duties of buffing and tanking will find that the run 1) takes longer, 2) requires a lot of skill. In fact, the GF player must be very skilled in the tanking (positioning), marking, and buffing duties to be the main 'tank' in the queue role. This gives the most satisfaction for the player, but it happens rarely.
I do not speak of PvP. I avoid it, and therefore, have nothing to say on it in regards to the GF.
Why should a player choose a GF? Because in a game, the GF is fun to play. You can be a dps god, a universal buffer, or do the role of tank/buff while actually needing skill to watch your back and watch where you party members are.
***For full disclosure, I do not play a dps GF. I do not begrudge those who choose such a setup, as it is in the game, and they put a lot of effort to get it. And, they have helped the other GF roles avoid mistakes in setup even while focusing on dps.***
For some reason the damage have dropped significantly with self buffs. Like I do fairly well DPS in live server, but in m15, the damage is 30% of the live server with exact same stats and builds (for example I do 40k damage with one hit of Weapon Master's strike in live server, in m15 preview, I just do 12k). Please take a look into this.
For some reason the damage have dropped significantly with self buffs. Like I do fairly well DPS in live server, but in m15, the damage is 30% of the live server with exact same stats and builds (for example I do 40k damage with one hit of Weapon Master's strike in live server, in m15 preview, I just do 12k). Please take a look into this.
Apperently combat advantage is not working on preview.
In this thread,we were asked as a community to provide info and testing in preview server about the upcoming GF changes in Mod15. A dev is clearly checking this thread ,so we all be carefull what to say and in what way.Yet this thread was derailed by some self nerf post of some Guardian Fighters.
"Especially on a Conqueror build, so as long as the Conqueror related feat nerfed basic shielding (something like: basic guarding reduces incoming damage only by 15%) "
"and/or made the feat unspammable"
"the need to have amazing timing"
"Conqueror Capstone: +30% damage buff, +10% crit, +20% CA, -50% DR and -25% stamina gain to GF"
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This cannot be.Their accounts must be stolen by defiant.Cannot be true.
If you two guys think that Gf needs a damage nerf please state it clearly.And if so,get straight to the point ,Knights Challenge. Ask KC bonus to be reduced or damage multiplier to be removed corectly.But since one of you two gentlemen,plays a DPS Gf with the support of 2 DC and one OP,you did not asked for this but for a universal nerf to 99% of GF population.And for what?I dont know?To be likable by the nerfers you run dungeons with?The DC/CW? A reduce in defense of a GF will not harm your toons since the support will cover that. Great,but you know ,we dont all run with 2 17k DCs and one 15k OP ,as you do.Sorry,we pug a lot.And proud of it. If you think Gf needs a nerf,ask the obvious that only affect the DPS Gf (1% of population) and not the Hybrid builds (80% of population).KC.
Some speak about perfect timing?How you measure your "perfect timing" and expect the rest of the population to adapt to this,when i suspect they never run tank solo?Do your "perfect timing" yourself and then ask from others to do it.
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I am sad. Only in the Gf community you can find posts like this. And the DC has a DPS path,never heard a DC ever to say " Since we have DPS ,half our buffs!" etc etc...
Kinda sad.
Nothing personal with anyone that feels offended just stated what many GFs thought by reading these.....ehm..proposals.
Cheers to all
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checkmatein3Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 525Arc User
edited September 2018
My proposal changes the survivability of the dps GF who would choose the Conqueror capstone. The damage is increased (5% more, 20% more CA).
You should not include my example as a DAMAGE nerf. There is no DAMAGE nerf.
However, my example was given because the devs are BUFFING the dps of the GF on a few key encounters, buffs which would most likely be used by GFs who favor dps. Moreover, the tanking role of the GF is almost overtaken by the role of the OP (practically speaking). I am not against buffing damage on any GF. I just shrug and yawn, because it does not provide viable trees to the other roles.
So, my example was to provide an idea on how to distinguish the 3 paths so that each has advantages the other does not, at a cost. That COST for the conqueror is NOT a damage nerf, but a survivability nerf for a dps specced GF. If a player wants be the berzerked warrior, go ahead. But, it doesn't mean the player should get all the advantage of the turtle.
I have proposed this as an example many mods ago.
The PROTECTOR line is 100% dead. If a GF runs protector, they are pretty much useless.
So, here is the logic of my EXAMPLE. Stats and % can always vary, but the essence is this:
Conqueror paths should have even more damage than they have now, stacked when they DEAL dmg AT A COST to survivability.
Protector paths should have more aggro, much higher debuffs that make sense [so that a GF protector might be considered in place of a damage buffer] to bosses and mobs and provide party buffs that are useful for a defensive purpose, at a COST of DPS to the GF. Stacks gained when they TAKE damage, which makes sense.
Tactician path should have a party based buff ONLY. The advantage of the Tactician is to be a general in the party. Thus, the stackable buff to ordinary GF buffs (IL, marking, party AP gain, CP, etc), would multiply based on party and GF play with each other. This makes it separate from either the Conq or the Protector. Does it nerf the Tactician? It changes it completely.
I post it here because the changes are just middling nothings. There is a community here, and I am one of them, that does not play a dps GF. I am hoping that the dev reads my suggestions and that it spurns some serious thought into them on how to make the 3 paths of the GF viable.
I do not comment on other classes because: 1) I don't play other classes, and 2) I don't care about other classes. Let the long time players in those classes make suggestions on how to make the 'dead' pathways viable. I have played the GF since open beta and will continue to play it.
I am in a guild with 2 very well and highly respected GFs that excel at the dps GF. They play the GF very well as the dps, and I hold nothing against them. This mod will benefit their builds I think, and mine as well, in certain situations.
But, again, the proposed changes does nothing to address the fundamental flaw in the 3 pathways that is primarily PHILOSOPHICAL.
Let me put it this way..
Normally, the higher the damage you are able to do, the less you can survive on your own, in the canons of the game.
Normally, the lower the damage you do, the more you can survive on your own.
Normally, when focusing on buffing, you are neither highest damage nor the highest survivor.
When any of these three are combined into one pathway (two or more), you get imbalance. By imbalance, I mean the other pathways, though technically available in the game, are practically shunned by the community.
I am not sorry for posting an example of an idea to stimulate the devs to think hard about this practical imbalance.
I am also not scared of what the devs might read and do, read and not do, not read and not do, or not read and do.
For those who are dps GFs, I wish more dps upon you. For those who want to be a turtle tanks, I wish more tankiness that might be useful For those who want to be the buff bots, I wish upon you more party buffing.
I do not wish upon the dps GF high dps and/or high survivability I do not wish upon the turtle tank high dps and/or high survivability I do not wish upon the buff bot high dps and/or high survivability and/or self party buffing.
"My proposal changes the survivability of the dps GF who would choose the Conqueror capstone. The damage is increased (5% more, 20% more CA)."
Why to change the survivability atr first place? DPS Gf is absent from CR and even there needs optimal party composition and near perfect DCs ,otherwise he is wiping the floor all the time and uses scrolls.
You proposed a severe ,outstanding nerf to Conq path,while it is the path that is chosen by a big majority of Gf players for hybrid builds.If you want to reduce survivability of a DPS Gf look at the KC encounter .That clearly separates DPS GFs and hybrid builds.
"You should not include my example as a DAMAGE nerf. There is no DAMAGE nerf."
You are wrong.As a hybrid build ,the -50% Dr you proposed ,would force me and countless others to cover that with extra defense and lose offensive stats.It is clearly a nerf you proposed,at least for my toon.
"However, my example was given because the devs are BUFFING the dps of the GF on a few key encounters, "
They do not buff the DPS of the GF,please read again the patch notes.It is clearly that you have not tested the changes.The GW in preview atm is completely broken,and you should not make your judgement based on that. Devs aim was to increase ICD to 16 secs from 12 now.They failed to do that ,it is in 12 secs now,plus infinite hits if you press fast enough the encounter button.
"Moreover, the tanking role of the GF is almost overtaken by the role of the OP (practically speaking). I am not against buffing damage on any GF. I just shrug and yawn, because it does not provide viable trees to the other roles."
And you accept that,as a prominent member of Gf community and what do you propose?Nerf hybrid builds of GF. Let's go again. You aknowldge the fact that tank Gf is delegated to second choise and at the same time you propose severe nerfs to that clas that needs buffs. And you do know that the HYBRID BUILDS are THE BEST TANKS..right?LS +plus damage.
"That COST for the conqueror is NOT a damage nerf, but a survivability nerf for a dps specced GF. "
Conqs are not only DPS but hybrid builds.I would say conqs are 20% DPS and 80% hybrids.With your proposal you screw the hybrids (solo tanks,Damage plus LS synergy) and you leave the DPS alone.A -50% DR reduction would do nil real nerf to DPS GF survivability since he always gets babysitted by the meta group .
"The PROTECTOR line is 100% dead. If a GF runs protector, they are pretty much useless."
With your proposal you will do useles and the other trees.
"I post it here because the changes are just middling nothings."
i hope for nothing changes,cause with proposals like yours I will quit the game.
"I am in a guild with 2 very well and highly respected GFs that excel at the dps GF. They play the GF very well as the dps, and I hold nothing against them. This mod will benefit their builds I think, and mine as well, in certain situations."
The changes you propose would not affect the survivability of these two guys,but will affect my gaming playstyle.(Hybrid LS Conq tank)
" "Peace!"
Amen! peace to you to beth.Nothing personal I just strongly disagree with you cause it is the third time i heard this thing. One from defiant two years ago as a trolling tactic,and two from RJC. It is becoming a trend and I wanted to showcase how wrongly and poorly conceived that ideas of yours are,according to my perception and opinion.
GF is in a good place right now. There is a place for OP and GF. OP provides more buffs, but GFs can bring personal damage as well as buff and tank too with many encounter to pick from.
The only changes I would like to see is a change to tactician capstone and protectors.
Tactician could be GF mark giving a 3% encounter reduction when hit, up to 5 times.
Protectors could get a capstone that upgrades Knights Valor to provide addition buffs (faster movement speed, stamina regeneration, CC resistance).
checkmatein3Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 525Arc User
edited September 2018
Yeah, Hyper, I am not trolling. I stood against defiant and others specifically because they were asking for nerfs based on the argument that all GFs should never do damage in a game. I even made an blatant troll post about it where I mocked him and others for what they were suggesting. I think you can find it in the bowels of the forum somewhere.
So, let me address your concerns in my example. Thanks for responding, by the way.
First, it is PHILOSOPHICAL, not mathematical. What I wrote is to be taken as an example as how to achieve the philosophy. There is no MATH behind it. Perhaps a -50% DR buff is extreme in the example, but it is easy to get to 120% DR on a GF without sacrificing dps or buffing. I sit at 95%, and I do not own a Negation enchant. But, again, the math in the example is 100% arbitrary. I almost did not post %s, but I thought that the IDEA of what I was proposing would be understood before the MATH. I guess I was unclear. The IDEA is more important.
Second, the next mod is, indeed a damage buff. There are a few key things that are broken, but so far, testing done on preview, even with the broken mechanism accounted for, and no CA, seems to show a damage increase, because of some other things that are being fixed. There are a few order of encounter issues, but the overall changes seems to give a slight damage increase, if the GF adapts. I will not detail these here. But as the next mod creeps closer, the final 'GF balance' will be better understood. It is still too early to tell conclusively.
Third, the Hybrid GF Conqueror would be affected, as would the Hybrid Tactician, and the Hybrid Protector (which does not exist on the PvE side of the game...maybe PvP??).
If you look at my example, and remove the MATH, but focus on the philosophy, what am I arguing? MORE DPS inversely effects SURVIVABILITY.
A Hybrid GF sacrifices some dps to get more survivability that a current pure dps GF does not have. Would the MATH behind my proposal be too much for the Hybrid Conq GF? Sure, maybe. On that, reduce it down. The cost can be commensurate with the advantage. A pure dps GF will run KC in order to get the highest dps possible. But, with a conqueror capstone that penalizes DR and stamina, that double damage and stay in one place begins to be a real problem. The Hybrid Conq GF may or may not run KC, maybe choosing to buff with CS or maybe run KV or maybe they are IV pathway and run FS or something. Either way, if the Hybrid Conq GF takes KC, they will put themselves at risk just like the dps GF. Maybe their DR will hold, to where they can stand, maybe not. If the Hybrid Conq GF runs KV, will the GF be too squishy to be a tank. I don't know. I would dearly love to be put in this scenario. This is why I say my proposal is not MATHEMATICAL. I would boost the KV DR% for self anyway, but I did not post to get into details on specific encounters.
I run as a Hybrid Tactician GF (CN and higher) and sometimes as a Hybrid Conq GF (solo and anything else). I can pull all of mSP without a problem and no OP, if I setup more tanky. If I still setup as dps, I cannot pull two groups without feeling it more. The PHILOSOPHICAL proposal will give players more possibilities in both pure builds and in Hybrid Builds. I believe the Hybrid Builds exist because the dps of the GF has been proven too good to be ignore AND at the same time, wanting to get into dungeons to buff and to be an off-tank to the OP.
My proposal will not kill off the Hybrid Conq GF. But, the Hybrid Conq GF build would be much more situational and be replaced situationally by loadouts for Hybrid Protector GF AND Hybrid Tactician GF.
Finally, my proposal if PHILOSOPHICALLY undestood will promote more options for GFs. The pure dps GF will get damage boosts. The pure tank GF will be useful damage debuffs. The pure buff GF will get more party buffs The Hybrid Conq GF will get more damage but need to account for the defense penalty in certain situations The Hybrid Prot GF will get more debuffs, but need to account for the damage penalty in certain situations (like dps checks on bosses) The Hybrid Tactician GF will get more party buffs, but need to account for not being a great tank OR dps, and fill in the build accordingly.
This all seems reasonable, even if the MATH in the capstones I proposed did not. For that, I sincerely apologize for the confusion.
Survivability being pointless isn't a problem of GF. It's a problem of the state game.
No amount of changes you make to Protector will change that. You could literally say Protector is immortal, and I still wouldn't play it, because not dying is something everyone can do if they try.
If you actually want to make a meaningful change to protector, you need to make it bring more for the team to the table. Logically that thing Protector provides to the team would be survivability, but like I said before, survivability is not needed in the endgame parties.
There's no point in going tanky when even dps classes can tank endgame bosses, thanks to stat creep.
Philosophical way of thinking,fine ,as it is.Yet we are in a game,that GF struggles to find its place. And I am sure you can understand the two theseis I m going to put forward that make GFs future highly risky,so any nerf would have dramatic consequences for the class.
Thesis A: OP gets buffed significantly evey mod ,with out even a patch note.The tanking potential of OP gets buffed every mod. Why i say that? Cause new weapon sets ,more damage,more temp hp,more tankiness. In a twisted way,OPs tankiness scales with the content ,since he gains more temp hp
Thesis B: Gf tanking abilities get nerf every mod cause of harder hitting enemies..yet fixed Gfs defenses.GF has 80% capped Shield DR and 80% capped defenses.Sure we all know he can get 150% if he likes but the effectiveness is 80% DR. That means that in 2-3 mods,the Bosses and adds will simply overwhelm GFs defenses.It is pure math.
Essentialy your proposal would not change anything..your aim is to nerf -reduce DPS GFs tankiness.I say it again,even if you make it 0% a DPS GF will have no problem.Cause of the meta grp composition.2 DCs and a dev OP will make GF to have nearly 70-80% DR,coupled with DCs using shepherd devotion and appropriate encounters and rotation ,plus Dev OP Shield of Faith. Yet at the same time a Hybrid LS Conq tank will be dead in the water,cause of reduced DR ,plus mod scaled content difficulty.
You do recognize ,you did not have absolute prediction of how your proposals would affect the Hybrids' aand the DPS GF tankiness and survivability.Then why you post them in a thread where the almighty balance DEV (named Balanced :P ) is present? You invite catastrophe ,that way
You are wrong about the preview,I being there i used ACTs ,I saw the bugged GW ,the broken ICD etc...there is not buff.In the contrary CA is absent.Cannot go into details about CA..but I suspect i know what is going on..nvm...
You put too much faith on the roumors that a spesific Gf says in the Farm Club.He is wrong he did not even tested at least when he was saying that.I was there the moment he said that and there were 2 hours since preview went online and he was just logged.Test your own man,trust none
There would be no a final GF balance as you seem to point,in which you hint a major nerf.It will not be ,as long as we keep the conversation and the flow of info secured.If we start talking about nerfs in a thread where a dev is present,we had signed our nerf ourselves.
these... As about msp..ask mel how many adds a Hybrid can gather,in the final run before nostura campfire..he will know!
Cheers and goodnight o/
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checkmatein3Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 525Arc User
edited September 2018
Hyper, I hope you give me more respect on this point than what your post might suggest. Please refrain from putting in personal assumptions about how I gain my information. There is no collusion from Farm Club or IF in this thread. I speak my own mind, when I want, and when the opportunity affords it, in my opinion, to the betterment of the whole GF community. I build everything myself, research everything myself, and if someone says something, I try and verify it, if it is interesting to me. I do not share my specific choices on my build with anyone, or the specific means that I chose to conclude how and why it works best for what I want. I never share my methods because there is more to a build than what ACT shows when hitting a dummy. I was the one who discovered with Dekonia Moone the OP + GF synergy in mod 6 that made burning bosses (including eCC final boss) easy. I was the one who discovered the 2xKV GA reflect burn with another GF friend, none of which came from whacking at a dummy. Those who know me, know I am level headed. I love the GF, but I just consider this a game. It is not life nor death. And in a game, the options for the GF as is, are limited, even with hybrid builds. There is nothing wrong in giving suggestions in a game forum about the opinion from a long time GF lover that could create more options.
As to asking Mel, Mel knows how many, because I run mSP with Mel when Mel wants RAQ and we get mSP. I pull the whole bottom floor.
As stated, I do not comment on other classes. Part of your argument has now twice referenced other classes. Asking a DC for nerf and the OP getting buffed. I don't ever comment on other classes. Let those who play those classes comment.
Cryptic has a history of favoring a class so as to generate income flow through a kind of flavor of the month (or season). As the community shifts to that FOTM, Cryptic makes money. There is no easy solution, in my opinion, to the current mechanics of how all the classes interact. The reason I say this is not because there are not proposals, but because Cryptic in its high end dungeon design has not stayed to one philosophy. Therefore, as Cryptic changes its whims to what the high end dungeon must have to challenge players, what is not considered is how it might challenge a variety of builds.
I know this was not part of the original discussion, but it is germane to the fluctuations and the arguments for keeping everything as is. I agree on this point. The GF is playable in the current gaming environment. But, like other classes, the current gaming environment, by design, excludes the possibility, both in mechanics and class design and meta, of certain builds. Why? Because it is all so vanilla! Or I should say vanilla and chocolate. Either you are a dps GF, a hybrid Conq GF who favors dps with a few buffs, or a hybrid Tactician GF, who maxes Crushing Pin and party buff. How can other choices become practically viable in a shifting game environment? Grimah said make capstone of protector and tactician better and different. Awesome! And how can it be competitive to other GF builds (not other classes) in certain dungeons and situations? I cannot agree with the philosophy not to change anything because so many GFs right now are forced into about 3 kinds of builds. How many would wish to be another kind of GF given the viability in game play? Would a new player, who knows nothign about Neverwinter, and whom Cryptic is targetting as a philosophy, understand the 3 build choice, or would they think, OP or GF for tank? GF... and then find out it is not viable. Retention of players comes from options in builds that fit situations in multiple scenarios.
So, given the fickle nature of mechanics, having options is always better. The Protector Option AND the Tactician option (to a lesser extent) are not great and run counter to game design. I mean, consider the GF Tactician is penalized on its capstone if the GF builds for high HP. Now, is it possible to achieve all of this AND provide a practical balance IN the game for the GF that favors dps. I believe it is. Only those who fear the unknown of what might happen would fear the conqueror receiving a removal of some of its survivabilty and a boost to its dps, without understanding that for situations that require it, the debuffing of mobs and BOSS should be more desireable in some situations. For example, I remember when you had to spec tank and aggro so that you can get into parties for Frozen Heart (and nothing else). And I never tanked the mobs, but had to kite them away from everyone. I remember having to tank and hold aggro and mark for original CN, eGWD, LoMD, and my favorite, Dread Vault (where you had to have dps, tank, aggro, buff, heal, control...everything in the party).
Since there is a hint in mod 15 that old dungeons are coming back (check out the campaign window), it behooves me to provide feedback to the developers to consider modifications to the GF that make all its trees viable.
My post do not point any disrespesct to anyone,I just state my opinion about the GF changes and your/Rjc proposals.
And yes I do refer to other classes,how I cannot do so,when one class off them ,directly competes with my own? Is not relevant?
In a time frame where the competent class gets huge buffs ,that directly will lead to even better tankiness,you propose an outstanding ,dramatic,severe ,extreme nerf.-50% Dr?
As you said ,you play mainly a tact ,the changes you propose would buff your playstyle ,and they will ruin mine . Fine,but that does not make me aggressive or whatever.It is simply I have much more to lose from your proposal,than to gain.
You said a Gf needs to have more choises. If ,in favor to have more choises ,we should destroy a playstyle and build ,that covers around 50% of endgame GFs,in order to favor the 1% of the population (DPS GFs babysitted by the meta ) and another 2% (Tacts) ,in order to bring into the light the third path (Prots) 0% ; Then simply I am against it.
(By that way of thinking ,trade offs I could propose a severe nerf to tact aggro and its tankiness..No? Why since aggro collides with its role as a buffbot and pet-companion of an Op?)
About respect and all ,if an unknown Gf would said that ,I would let it pass,but I cannot let you and Rjc spreading these thoughs uncontested.I respond to your question,indirectly.
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Our fundamental difference hides beneath our words. I want GF to be N1 tank again,you want GF to provide buffs in an integrated party.Delegated to a buff bot,a supplament to an OP. Sadly I do not accept that ,this is my personal view.
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I apologize to anyone reading this thread and to the mods and the devs ,that I derailed this tread,but I could not so do. Nothing personal to anyone,cheers to all o/
checkmatein3Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 525Arc User
edited September 2018
Hyper, I respect your desire to benefit the whole GF community, and that, in that desire, you would disagree with the philosophy I have put forth. I hope that others who read our respectful disagreement will learn how real conversation and dialogue can be had, while disagreeing, so that, in the end, IF changes are made, those who make the changes (devs) will be fully aware of multiple perspectives and concerns!
My philosophy is NOT to have the GF be a buff bot only.
My philosophy is to have the GF have a choice of many roles provided in the trees be viable in game that makes sense to each role. Conqueror for dps. Protector for debuffing mobs/bosses and party survival Tactician for party buffing
Our point of disagreement is NOT on what we want, but how we get there. Your position is that the GF is already not as tanky as an OP and therefore, adding a penalty to the Conqueror line in defense, would destroy this as an option. I agree with the first part (OPs are better tanks). I disagree with the second half (adding a penalty would destroy a playstyle).
Your stated reasons for disagreement are: 1) a large % of the playerbase would be affected, and, in competition for an OP tank, the GF would lose out. 2) the OP tank is better 3) my proposals only benefit myself and the 1% dps GFs. 4) my proposals would kill off the GF because there would be nothing left to do.
My reasons for stating the proposal are: 1) The Conqueror tree can be tweaked so that its dps increased for those GFs that want to be dps-focused 2) The Protector tree can be revitalized so that those players who want to have this playstyle can directly compete with the OP and not be shunned. 3) The Tactician tree can be revamped so that its buffs make sense. None of these kill off playstyle, but makes options, MORE than what we have right now.
With this comes, of course, an understanding that content created will actually support such playstyle. For example, what if the Protector GFs line's 50% debuff affected the Call of Winter on Drufi, or Ras Nsi's soulmonger instant kill?
The main problem is that, in order to solve a problem, we sometimes are so far inside the problem, that we only look at symptoms and not the problem itself. I think it is a problem that, in your words, 0% of GFs play protector in end-game dungeons. THAT is a problem. No option.
I prefer to give an opinion that is outside the box, to stimulate solutions that might be able to untangle this rather unfortunate web we are bound in as GFs.
But, again, as you are in disagreement with my proposal or philosophy, which is your right as a person who enjoys and is passionate about the GF, I am glad that you have posted your disagreement.
Let us hope developers actually do understand with some insight the nature of the game, and the manner in which part of the GF play is in limbo, and that solutions would come in future mods.
Actually at current state of the game being a "tank" means nothing. Not sure like you m8s by my GF is either alive and kicking or dead. I mean when was a last time you were wounded (not full hp) and had to choose - strike to kill before oponent kills you or raise shield to survive next hit..
Funny thing is that being a tank means something when you leveling up, and on very low IL closer to end game, and end game meta you are, less it means. And due to a fact that you leveling up fast you may not even notice that.
What is worse for GFs and even OPs - that makes classes unable to tank at all in so much better situation . They already dont have a useless part of their tree and powers following it.
Exactly like @hypervoreian mentioned, but not just classes or trees but entire mechanic branch become more useless with every mode, DR, HP (not for AOC but survivial) Deflect who needs those when in end game meta party game comes down to - alive/immortal due to party composition and buffing/debuffing/dpsing or oneshoted regardless of your whole defensive capabilities at once.
First game killed entire CC - who would need that if mobs melts with a blink of an eye and bosses are immune. Now its time for all kind of defences.
And that taken together put me in a situation when asked about - what changes would you like to see on your GF I am pretty much speechless. Ask for more DPS - so called dps classes will cry, ask for being more tanky - pointless. Whats left - buff/debuff.
Actually I got only 1 proposition here:
Increase a GF and GF only effective DR to 95% - and let 50% of that amount work out for ITF purposes. That one move would both increase real tankiness of GFs and would boost most resonable buff it has. And while some latest mobs and bosses do have some ArPen that would add for GFs a need to stack defence some more if they would like to keep buff at maximum level (110%DR)
In short dear @devs - let us do our job, 8 mods of nerfing or not touching at best in a row, is a bit too much dont you think?
Philosophical way of thinking,fine ,as it is.Yet we are in a game,that GF struggles to find its place. And I am sure you can understand the two theseis I m going to put forward that make GFs future highly risky,so any nerf would have dramatic consequences for the class.
Dude, we do have a place. Pure DPS GFs are not very common and the ones that are only run with certain comps/players. I pug ALOT, and I've only met ONE dps GF during this time. I have played with a bunch of DPS GFs within guild/friends/alliance (my guild has a bunch of them) and I can see that it can work great (damage wise) but it's poorly designed for it.
Apart from the same repeat whiners on the forums, I've yet to hear ANYONE ingame complain about GF DPS. Sure I've heard people talk about their own classes needing a buff, but I never heard once someone say GFs are hurting the game, not once. But I think the DEVs already know this, which is why from the list of GF changes you can see that they want to keep it's damage where it is.
Reckless Attacker provides 25% personal damage bonus. If your changes were applied, there'd be no reason to go Conqueror for dps, because Tactician would provide 55% more personal damage from buffed ITF.
KV DR bonus is irrelevant 90% of the time. The most damage you can take is the damage your allies have HP for. Personal defensive stats or simply shielding is enough to deal with that. The difference between rank 1 KV and rank 4 KV is unnoticable and irrelevant.
Your proposed changes kills Conqueror path, doesn't bring anything to the Protector path, so it also stays dead. And they make Tactician the only viable style of play.
Well, i play GF and i see that atm we are a class able to do eveything almost at the same level being conqueror, protector or tactician. So i want to make a propose... Lets nerf KV and ITF and speciallize all paths.
Knights Valor DR - 5% per additional rank, down from 10% InTo The Fray - 10% base +5% per additional rank (total 25%)
So, now that we know what i sugest as a nerf lets speciallize each class:
Conqueror Path: Does more damage but have less KV (5% per additional rank) and 25% ITF
And fixed Griffon Wrath
Protector Path: Brawling Warrior Feat: Now with 5 points gives 20% more DR per additional rank. 1 point: 8% (5% + 3%) 2 points: 11% (8% + 3%) 3 points: 14% (11% + 3%) 4 points: 17% (14% + 3%) 5 points: 20% (17% + 3%)
Unshakable Line: Each ally within 20' of you increases your stamina regen by 2/4/6/8/10% and party damage by 5/10/15/20/25%. (swich Unshakable line position with overwhelming impact, this prevent tactician/conqueror GF from adding points here, making it exclusive for protector)
A more protective path with increased KV and 50% damage buff (25% ITF + 25% Unshakable Line)
OK, so i wanted to make a long and detailed post... but what does it matter? How does these proposals matter when the current state of the game considers only DPS and Buff in superlatives. How can we propose a meaningfull Protector design when currently it is useless and we dont know what changes to meta through stats or other things can happen?
In Tactician it is obvious it needs more buffs and needs to scale off stats somehow (like make Recovery a thing) also some debuffs wouldnt be bad, right?
*Fight ON+CP, T1 feats... okay *Daunting Challenge- correct the tooltip to state "less dmg to you and your allies" *Battle Trample- get rid of it, its bugged and useless. Complete replacement is needed. Example: Marked targets have 5% less DR, deal 5% less dmg and allies gain 5% buff against them. * Grim Promise- tie it to a different dayli like Supermacy of Steel, debuff should be general damage debuff not just self only. * Rousing Speech- 10% AP gain and 10% RechargeSpeedIncrease * United- You and allies take 10% less damage (not a DR buff but a direct reduction of damage) * Inspiring Leader- 10% more ITF buff and 10% more AP gain * Powerfull Strike- Comanders Strike does 50% of first encounters dmg, 40% of anothers, 30% of anothers etc. down to 0 * Surging Tide- Tide of Irons debuff is now general, not only for self. * Terrifying Menace- untie it from a power, there are enough Tact powers tied with specific powers. All enemies in 30 range have 10% less DR and all allies within 30 are buffed by 10% for 5 secs whenever GF gets hit. * Martial Mastery- the GF regenerates AP of party members by 5% every 5 seconds, every time hes hit regenerates another 5% of AP 2 sec cooldown and every time he uses an encounter he regenerates 10% AP over 5 seconds, stacks 5 times. (numbers are rough, cant be estimated like this without a testing in action)
For Conqueror id like to see rationalizing of feats, a big rework like for Tactician is not needed. The dmg nerf that some people cry for... well, just a tone down of KC is completly enough, with other paths being viable you will see less Conquerors and wont scare to outDPS your DPS :P. On the other hand, some AoE damage should be brought to GF.
* Improved Vigor- change to: when more than 50% health, gain 10% more Action Points. When >50% another 10% AP gain. * Take Measure- 15% instead of mere 5% temp HP, 20 second cooldown. * Wrathful Warrior- When you gain (instead of have) temp. HP you deal 15% more dmg for 10 seconds. * Stunning Flourish- Swap it with Staying Power from Protector tree. * Reinforced Surge- this feat doesnt work at all btw, its a blank space currently. Make it work and do 10% more instead of just 5% * Jagged Blades- affected targets radiate 100% of JBs dmg to targets in X range, max 5 radiators radiating to max 5 targets. * Crushing Shield- damage is increased by 10% when striking multiple targets - same to GWFs Mighty Blade * Cruel Cut Style- tie it to Crushing Surge instead of so terribly clunky Cleave * Staggering Challenge- OK * Tactical Superiority- OK ... more or less, not much for a T5 feat, but fine. * Menacing Impact- General 10% buff to daylies, and 5 second longer duration for SoS,FR,VM. * Reckless Attacker- make it last 20 seconds and be gained on hitting rather than taking damage.
Powers need a rework too, their usefulness is broken down to few that are being used by almost all GF specs and the ones that are useless to all. But thats for a much longer post than this.
I know this (15) mod we are getting only little something, but mod 16 is bound to carry some bigger changes to GF, so i only hope devs will listen to players and will make more GF paths good and usefull while keeping Conqeror relevant.
Mark: This power should no longer be interrupted by other powers Mark: This power should now cast slightly faster
Awesome, this should actually help managing aggro a lot, as well as help GWF damage. Mark has been a little clunky sometimes.
Sad to see that the annoying "step-in" of Aggravating Strike hasn't been addressed. That makes it really "aggravating" to tank effectively. Maybe that can still be worked into the patch?
Not really a lost cause , but in all honesty this thread wont have much going on for this mod, that i'm almost certain. Before mod 16 , sure gf's probably will have some major rework.
Alright, my quiting failed 'cause of the horible commands on the other game, sorry my grammer eglish is not perfect but am sure you can understand me well enough. So since I play a GF and gonna be playing the game for a while to come I would like to suggest some minor tweaks that would improve overall playing a GF more enjoyable.
Crushing Surge At-Will, can you please (dev's) smooth animation of this skill, it very slow and clunky. I do belive its the slowest At-Will skill of any class curently in the game.
Into the Fray Encounter Power, this skill give very small amount of Temp HP points, I would apreciate very much if you could make the skill generate 15% of the Max Hp as Temp HP.
Enforced Threat Encounter Power, Please lower the cooldown on this skill, it's GF's one and only skill to generate threat, it would help imencly!
If you even consider reading my post (dev's) its apreciated.
I did no testing on Preview with my GF actually. But I wonder about the pretty small ammount of changes about GF-class in the sum. Did i miss something ? Or did devs simply forgot about GF. I read in the TR posts that a lot of ideas, mentioned in former threats, were brought into those patch nodes for the class, changes that were written down by long term player, ok @balanced#2849 said it is a rework, I think the second one I witnessed for TR, last bigger rework was mod 5 I guess. Devs took that input and improved "stepchild-trees", sure they also did changes to obviously overperforming powerbuffs/loops, but forgot about their credo "small steps" as it looks like. I don´t want the class to be stomped in the ground , even though hated in PVP.
In case of GF there is nothing I can read out of those patch that can be found good or bad in any way. It´s nothing tbh, smaller nerfs etc. Conqueror is in a good spot and does not need a lot attention. I really don´t care about GF´s 3 hitting bosses, in case that´s what they like to do all day running beside a devo-OP, 2 DC's and another buffbot. Most player neither like to run in a fix setup like that, nor have the dps setup, nor the friendlist to fill in those spots all day , same as the playstyle is a butthurt anyway.
The focus should have been Protector and Tactitian, for ages now. The difference between GF and OP tank is the most obvious disbalance in this game in my eyes. Protector is a completely forgotten tree, the tree that fits in the main role of that class mostly. It might be ment as the spec for low geared player, but there should have been a buff to tier 4 and 5 feats and capstone. Prot. OP running AoC, AoW, Blitz, powerbuffs, debuffs 30%, on top of unlimited temp HP... there is no room for a GF running protector. Same as tactitian is nothing than a buffbot, a 5. wheel more needed than wanted, concerning metaruns without a conqueror GF.
Comments
The current state of the GF will attract two kinds of players:
The first kind of player will be the new player who thinks that the GF is one of two tanks in the game. Expecting a game to follow the trinity of roles, the GF would be chosen for that role. The new player would try and build the GF that way, with high hit points, lots of defense, minimal damage, and debuffing the damage of enemies. This player will be disappointed to find that parties do not want the GF in the role of the tanky tank. This player will either quit the character out of frustration (and maybe the game) or start reading guides or asking advice to change their build.
The second kind of player is one who has either gone through the above and/or knows enough about the GF in the game to build a dps monster OR a supplemental buff bot. When the disappointment clears, the extravagant damage that a GF can give out when expertly and uniquely specced for dps will make the player salivate. The cost of achieving such a spec in some cases is a lot of investment (since the GF is going for in game items that are also wanted by other dps classes, or that rarely drop [survivor wraps]), but the player will please themselves with the output of the GF in comparison to other classes, and take all the trolling in stride, and defend the dps GF spec on forums because of the investment needed to get to its specific setup. The only lack of satisfaction for the dps GF player will be that he might find himself perturbed at how to get into parties in high end dungeons, because the queue system does not recognize him as dps. So, premades are usually the way to go, and he now competes directly with other dps classes, and some in the player community might avoid the dps GF as a punishment for doing something THEY think the GF should not do, or they just have other dps friends. Either way, a large and solid FRIEND base is needed for end game dps GF players. For the player who chooses to be the supplemental buff bot, they must realize that they are the filler, the add-on. It does not mean that a GF is not easily added, but the GF is added over a 2nd dps slot, not the OP, and usually not over a 2nd DC (that might change in the next mod). Also, in this setup, the GF is still competing against a dps, or another buffer, and it is up to the party lead to know what they want. However, the buffing of the GF is so universal that any buff GF can do the job credibly. So, it comes down to availability. A buff GF will do the job. NO special skill needed. However, the player must be resigned to be chosen as an add-in. For random queues, the team might moan if the GF comes in instead of the OP. And a main GF that must do the duties of buffing and tanking will find that the run 1) takes longer, 2) requires a lot of skill. In fact, the GF player must be very skilled in the tanking (positioning), marking, and buffing duties to be the main 'tank' in the queue role. This gives the most satisfaction for the player, but it happens rarely.
I do not speak of PvP. I avoid it, and therefore, have nothing to say on it in regards to the GF.
Why should a player choose a GF? Because in a game, the GF is fun to play. You can be a dps god, a universal buffer, or do the role of tank/buff while actually needing skill to watch your back and watch where you party members are.
***For full disclosure, I do not play a dps GF. I do not begrudge those who choose such a setup, as it is in the game, and they put a lot of effort to get it. And, they have helped the other GF roles avoid mistakes in setup even while focusing on dps.***
Guild--And the Imaginary Friends
A dev is clearly checking this thread ,so we all be carefull what to say and in what way.Yet this thread was derailed by some self nerf post of some Guardian Fighters.
"Especially on a Conqueror build, so as long as the Conqueror related feat nerfed basic shielding (something like: basic guarding reduces incoming damage only by 15%) "
"and/or made the feat unspammable"
"the need to have amazing timing"
"Conqueror Capstone: +30% damage buff, +10% crit, +20% CA, -50% DR and -25% stamina gain to GF"
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This cannot be.Their accounts must be stolen by defiant.Cannot be true.
If you two guys think that Gf needs a damage nerf please state it clearly.And if so,get straight to the point ,Knights Challenge.
Ask KC bonus to be reduced or damage multiplier to be removed corectly.But since one of you two gentlemen,plays a DPS Gf with the support of 2 DC and one OP,you did not asked for this but for a universal nerf to 99% of GF population.And for what?I dont know?To be likable by the nerfers you run dungeons with?The DC/CW?
A reduce in defense of a GF will not harm your toons since the support will cover that.
Great,but you know ,we dont all run with 2 17k DCs and one 15k OP ,as you do.Sorry,we pug a lot.And proud of it.
If you think Gf needs a nerf,ask the obvious that only affect the DPS Gf (1% of population) and not the Hybrid builds (80% of population).KC.
Some speak about perfect timing?How you measure your "perfect timing" and expect the rest of the population to adapt to this,when i suspect they never run tank solo?Do your "perfect timing" yourself and then ask from others to do it.
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I am sad.
Only in the Gf community you can find posts like this.
And the DC has a DPS path,never heard a DC ever to say " Since we have DPS ,half our buffs!"
etc etc...
Kinda sad.
Nothing personal with anyone that feels offended just stated what many GFs thought by reading these.....ehm..proposals.
Cheers to all
You should not include my example as a DAMAGE nerf. There is no DAMAGE nerf.
However, my example was given because the devs are BUFFING the dps of the GF on a few key encounters, buffs which would most likely be used by GFs who favor dps. Moreover, the tanking role of the GF is almost overtaken by the role of the OP (practically speaking). I am not against buffing damage on any GF. I just shrug and yawn, because it does not provide viable trees to the other roles.
So, my example was to provide an idea on how to distinguish the 3 paths so that each has advantages the other does not, at a cost. That COST for the conqueror is NOT a damage nerf, but a survivability nerf for a dps specced GF. If a player wants be the berzerked warrior, go ahead. But, it doesn't mean the player should get all the advantage of the turtle.
I have proposed this as an example many mods ago.
The PROTECTOR line is 100% dead. If a GF runs protector, they are pretty much useless.
So, here is the logic of my EXAMPLE. Stats and % can always vary, but the essence is this:
Conqueror paths should have even more damage than they have now, stacked when they DEAL dmg AT A COST to survivability.
Protector paths should have more aggro, much higher debuffs that make sense [so that a GF protector might be considered in place of a damage buffer] to bosses and mobs and provide party buffs that are useful for a defensive purpose, at a COST of DPS to the GF. Stacks gained when they TAKE damage, which makes sense.
Tactician path should have a party based buff ONLY. The advantage of the Tactician is to be a general in the party. Thus, the stackable buff to ordinary GF buffs (IL, marking, party AP gain, CP, etc), would multiply based on party and GF play with each other. This makes it separate from either the Conq or the Protector. Does it nerf the Tactician? It changes it completely.
I post it here because the changes are just middling nothings. There is a community here, and I am one of them, that does not play a dps GF. I am hoping that the dev reads my suggestions and that it spurns some serious thought into them on how to make the 3 paths of the GF viable.
I do not comment on other classes because: 1) I don't play other classes, and 2) I don't care about other classes. Let the long time players in those classes make suggestions on how to make the 'dead' pathways viable. I have played the GF since open beta and will continue to play it.
I am in a guild with 2 very well and highly respected GFs that excel at the dps GF. They play the GF very well as the dps, and I hold nothing against them. This mod will benefit their builds I think, and mine as well, in certain situations.
But, again, the proposed changes does nothing to address the fundamental flaw in the 3 pathways that is primarily PHILOSOPHICAL.
Let me put it this way..
Normally, the higher the damage you are able to do, the less you can survive on your own, in the canons of the game.
Normally, the lower the damage you do, the more you can survive on your own.
Normally, when focusing on buffing, you are neither highest damage nor the highest survivor.
When any of these three are combined into one pathway (two or more), you get imbalance. By imbalance, I mean the other pathways, though technically available in the game, are practically shunned by the community.
I am not sorry for posting an example of an idea to stimulate the devs to think hard about this practical imbalance.
I am also not scared of what the devs might read and do, read and not do, not read and not do, or not read and do.
For those who are dps GFs, I wish more dps upon you.
For those who want to be a turtle tanks, I wish more tankiness that might be useful
For those who want to be the buff bots, I wish upon you more party buffing.
I do not wish upon the dps GF high dps and/or high survivability
I do not wish upon the turtle tank high dps and/or high survivability
I do not wish upon the buff bot high dps and/or high survivability and/or self party buffing.
Peace to all my GF mates!
Guild--And the Imaginary Friends
Why to change the survivability atr first place? DPS Gf is absent from CR and even there needs optimal party composition and near perfect DCs ,otherwise he is wiping the floor all the time and uses scrolls.
You proposed a severe ,outstanding nerf to Conq path,while it is the path that is chosen by a big majority of Gf players for hybrid builds.If you want to reduce survivability of a DPS Gf look at the KC encounter .That clearly separates DPS GFs and hybrid builds.
"You should not include my example as a DAMAGE nerf. There is no DAMAGE nerf."
You are wrong.As a hybrid build ,the -50% Dr you proposed ,would force me and countless others to cover that with extra defense and lose offensive stats.It is clearly a nerf you proposed,at least for my toon.
"However, my example was given because the devs are BUFFING the dps of the GF on a few key encounters, "
They do not buff the DPS of the GF,please read again the patch notes.It is clearly that you have not tested the changes.The GW in preview atm is completely broken,and you should not make your judgement based on that.
Devs aim was to increase ICD to 16 secs from 12 now.They failed to do that ,it is in 12 secs now,plus infinite hits if you press fast enough the encounter button.
"Moreover, the tanking role of the GF is almost overtaken by the role of the OP (practically speaking). I am not against buffing damage on any GF. I just shrug and yawn, because it does not provide viable trees to the other roles."
And you accept that,as a prominent member of Gf community and what do you propose?Nerf hybrid builds of GF.
Let's go again.
You aknowldge the fact that tank Gf is delegated to second choise and at the same time you propose severe nerfs to that clas that needs buffs.
And you do know that the HYBRID BUILDS are THE BEST TANKS..right?LS +plus damage.
"That COST for the conqueror is NOT a damage nerf, but a survivability nerf for a dps specced GF. "
Conqs are not only DPS but hybrid builds.I would say conqs are 20% DPS and 80% hybrids.With your proposal you screw the hybrids (solo tanks,Damage plus LS synergy) and you leave the DPS alone.A -50% DR reduction would do nil real nerf to DPS GF survivability since he always gets babysitted by the meta group .
"The PROTECTOR line is 100% dead. If a GF runs protector, they are pretty much useless."
With your proposal you will do useles and the other trees.
"I post it here because the changes are just middling nothings."
i hope for nothing changes,cause with proposals like yours I will quit the game.
"I am in a guild with 2 very well and highly respected GFs that excel at the dps GF. They play the GF very well as the dps, and I hold nothing against them. This mod will benefit their builds I think, and mine as well, in certain situations."
The changes you propose would not affect the survivability of these two guys,but will affect my gaming playstyle.(Hybrid LS Conq tank)
"
"Peace!"
Amen!
One from defiant two years ago as a trolling tactic,and two from RJC.
It is becoming a trend and I wanted to showcase how wrongly and poorly conceived that ideas of yours are,according to my perception and opinion.
Cheers.
The only changes I would like to see is a change to tactician capstone and protectors.
Tactician could be GF mark giving a 3% encounter reduction when hit, up to 5 times.
Protectors could get a capstone that upgrades Knights Valor to provide addition buffs (faster movement speed, stamina regeneration, CC resistance).
and also the featured satirical comedic adventure "A Call for Heroes".
So, let me address your concerns in my example. Thanks for responding, by the way.
First, it is PHILOSOPHICAL, not mathematical. What I wrote is to be taken as an example as how to achieve the philosophy. There is no MATH behind it. Perhaps a -50% DR buff is extreme in the example, but it is easy to get to 120% DR on a GF without sacrificing dps or buffing. I sit at 95%, and I do not own a Negation enchant. But, again, the math in the example is 100% arbitrary. I almost did not post %s, but I thought that the IDEA of what I was proposing would be understood before the MATH. I guess I was unclear. The IDEA is more important.
Second, the next mod is, indeed a damage buff. There are a few key things that are broken, but so far, testing done on preview, even with the broken mechanism accounted for, and no CA, seems to show a damage increase, because of some other things that are being fixed. There are a few order of encounter issues, but the overall changes seems to give a slight damage increase, if the GF adapts. I will not detail these here. But as the next mod creeps closer, the final 'GF balance' will be better understood. It is still too early to tell conclusively.
Third, the Hybrid GF Conqueror would be affected, as would the Hybrid Tactician, and the Hybrid Protector (which does not exist on the PvE side of the game...maybe PvP??).
If you look at my example, and remove the MATH, but focus on the philosophy, what am I arguing?
MORE DPS inversely effects SURVIVABILITY.
A Hybrid GF sacrifices some dps to get more survivability that a current pure dps GF does not have. Would the MATH behind my proposal be too much for the Hybrid Conq GF? Sure, maybe. On that, reduce it down. The cost can be commensurate with the advantage. A pure dps GF will run KC in order to get the highest dps possible. But, with a conqueror capstone that penalizes DR and stamina, that double damage and stay in one place begins to be a real problem. The Hybrid Conq GF may or may not run KC, maybe choosing to buff with CS or maybe run KV or maybe they are IV pathway and run FS or something. Either way, if the Hybrid Conq GF takes KC, they will put themselves at risk just like the dps GF. Maybe their DR will hold, to where they can stand, maybe not. If the Hybrid Conq GF runs KV, will the GF be too squishy to be a tank. I don't know. I would dearly love to be put in this scenario. This is why I say my proposal is not MATHEMATICAL. I would boost the KV DR% for self anyway, but I did not post to get into details on specific encounters.
I run as a Hybrid Tactician GF (CN and higher) and sometimes as a Hybrid Conq GF (solo and anything else). I can pull all of mSP without a problem and no OP, if I setup more tanky. If I still setup as dps, I cannot pull two groups without feeling it more. The PHILOSOPHICAL proposal will give players more possibilities in both pure builds and in Hybrid Builds. I believe the Hybrid Builds exist because the dps of the GF has been proven too good to be ignore AND at the same time, wanting to get into dungeons to buff and to be an off-tank to the OP.
My proposal will not kill off the Hybrid Conq GF. But, the Hybrid Conq GF build would be much more situational and be replaced situationally by loadouts for Hybrid Protector GF AND Hybrid Tactician GF.
Finally, my proposal if PHILOSOPHICALLY undestood will promote more options for GFs.
The pure dps GF will get damage boosts.
The pure tank GF will be useful damage debuffs.
The pure buff GF will get more party buffs
The Hybrid Conq GF will get more damage but need to account for the defense penalty in certain situations
The Hybrid Prot GF will get more debuffs, but need to account for the damage penalty in certain situations (like dps checks on bosses)
The Hybrid Tactician GF will get more party buffs, but need to account for not being a great tank OR dps, and fill in the build accordingly.
This all seems reasonable, even if the MATH in the capstones I proposed did not. For that, I sincerely apologize for the confusion.
Cheers all!
Guild--And the Imaginary Friends
No amount of changes you make to Protector will change that. You could literally say Protector is immortal, and I still wouldn't play it, because not dying is something everyone can do if they try.
If you actually want to make a meaningful change to protector, you need to make it bring more for the team to the table. Logically that thing Protector provides to the team would be survivability, but like I said before, survivability is not needed in the endgame parties.
There's no point in going tanky when even dps classes can tank endgame bosses, thanks to stat creep.
And I am sure you can understand the two theseis I m going to put forward that make GFs future highly risky,so any nerf would have dramatic consequences for the class.
Thesis A:
OP gets buffed significantly evey mod ,with out even a patch note.The tanking potential of OP gets buffed every mod.
Why i say that?
Cause new weapon sets ,more damage,more temp hp,more tankiness.
In a twisted way,OPs tankiness scales with the content ,since he gains more temp hp
Thesis B:
Gf tanking abilities get nerf every mod cause of harder hitting enemies..yet fixed Gfs defenses.GF has 80% capped Shield DR and 80% capped defenses.Sure we all know he can get 150% if he likes but the effectiveness is 80% DR.
That means that in 2-3 mods,the Bosses and adds will simply overwhelm GFs defenses.It is pure math.
Essentialy your proposal would not change anything..your aim is to nerf -reduce DPS GFs tankiness.I say it again,even if you make it 0% a DPS GF will have no problem.Cause of the meta grp composition.2 DCs and a dev OP will make GF to have nearly 70-80% DR,coupled with DCs using shepherd devotion and appropriate encounters and rotation ,plus Dev OP Shield of Faith.
Yet at the same time a Hybrid LS Conq tank will be dead in the water,cause of reduced DR ,plus mod scaled content difficulty.
You do recognize ,you did not have absolute prediction of how your proposals would affect the Hybrids' aand the DPS GF tankiness and survivability.Then why you post them in a thread where the almighty balance DEV (named Balanced :P ) is present?
You invite catastrophe ,that way
You are wrong about the preview,I being there i used ACTs ,I saw the bugged GW ,the broken ICD etc...there is not buff.In the contrary CA is absent.Cannot go into details about CA..but I suspect i know what is going on..nvm...
You put too much faith on the roumors that a spesific Gf says in the Farm Club.He is wrong he did not even tested at least when he was saying that.I was there the moment he said that and there were 2 hours since preview went online and he was just logged.Test your own man,trust none
There would be no a final GF balance as you seem to point,in which you hint a major nerf.It will not be ,as long as we keep the conversation and the flow of info secured.If we start talking about nerfs in a thread where a dev is present,we had signed our nerf ourselves.
these...
As about msp..ask mel how many adds a Hybrid can gather,in the final run before nostura campfire..he will know!
Cheers and goodnight o/
As to asking Mel, Mel knows how many, because I run mSP with Mel when Mel wants RAQ and we get mSP. I pull the whole bottom floor.
As stated, I do not comment on other classes. Part of your argument has now twice referenced other classes. Asking a DC for nerf and the OP getting buffed. I don't ever comment on other classes. Let those who play those classes comment.
Cryptic has a history of favoring a class so as to generate income flow through a kind of flavor of the month (or season). As the community shifts to that FOTM, Cryptic makes money. There is no easy solution, in my opinion, to the current mechanics of how all the classes interact. The reason I say this is not because there are not proposals, but because Cryptic in its high end dungeon design has not stayed to one philosophy. Therefore, as Cryptic changes its whims to what the high end dungeon must have to challenge players, what is not considered is how it might challenge a variety of builds.
I know this was not part of the original discussion, but it is germane to the fluctuations and the arguments for keeping everything as is. I agree on this point. The GF is playable in the current gaming environment. But, like other classes, the current gaming environment, by design, excludes the possibility, both in mechanics and class design and meta, of certain builds. Why? Because it is all so vanilla! Or I should say vanilla and chocolate. Either you are a dps GF, a hybrid Conq GF who favors dps with a few buffs, or a hybrid Tactician GF, who maxes Crushing Pin and party buff. How can other choices become practically viable in a shifting game environment? Grimah said make capstone of protector and tactician better and different. Awesome! And how can it be competitive to other GF builds (not other classes) in certain dungeons and situations? I cannot agree with the philosophy not to change anything because so many GFs right now are forced into about 3 kinds of builds. How many would wish to be another kind of GF given the viability in game play? Would a new player, who knows nothign about Neverwinter, and whom Cryptic is targetting as a philosophy, understand the 3 build choice, or would they think, OP or GF for tank? GF... and then find out it is not viable. Retention of players comes from options in builds that fit situations in multiple scenarios.
So, given the fickle nature of mechanics, having options is always better. The Protector Option AND the Tactician option (to a lesser extent) are not great and run counter to game design. I mean, consider the GF Tactician is penalized on its capstone if the GF builds for high HP. Now, is it possible to achieve all of this AND provide a practical balance IN the game for the GF that favors dps. I believe it is. Only those who fear the unknown of what might happen would fear the conqueror receiving a removal of some of its survivabilty and a boost to its dps, without understanding that for situations that require it, the debuffing of mobs and BOSS should be more desireable in some situations. For example, I remember when you had to spec tank and aggro so that you can get into parties for Frozen Heart (and nothing else). And I never tanked the mobs, but had to kite them away from everyone. I remember having to tank and hold aggro and mark for original CN, eGWD, LoMD, and my favorite, Dread Vault (where you had to have dps, tank, aggro, buff, heal, control...everything in the party).
Since there is a hint in mod 15 that old dungeons are coming back (check out the campaign window), it behooves me to provide feedback to the developers to consider modifications to the GF that make all its trees viable.
Cheers!
Guild--And the Imaginary Friends
And yes I do refer to other classes,how I cannot do so,when one class off them ,directly competes with my own?
Is not relevant?
In a time frame where the competent class gets huge buffs ,that directly will lead to even better tankiness,you propose an outstanding ,dramatic,severe ,extreme nerf.-50% Dr?
As you said ,you play mainly a tact ,the changes you propose would buff your playstyle ,and they will ruin mine .
Fine,but that does not make me aggressive or whatever.It is simply I have much more to lose from your proposal,than to gain.
You said a Gf needs to have more choises.
If ,in favor to have more choises ,we should destroy a playstyle and build ,that covers around 50% of endgame GFs,in order to favor the 1% of the population (DPS GFs babysitted by the meta ) and another 2% (Tacts) ,in order to bring into the light the third path (Prots) 0% ;
Then simply I am against it.
(By that way of thinking ,trade offs I could propose a severe nerf to tact aggro and its tankiness..No? Why since aggro collides with its role as a buffbot and pet-companion of an Op?)
About respect and all ,if an unknown Gf would said that ,I would let it pass,but I cannot let you and Rjc spreading these thoughs uncontested.I respond to your question,indirectly.
----------------
Our fundamental difference hides beneath our words.
I want GF to be N1 tank again,you want GF to provide buffs in an integrated party.Delegated to a buff bot,a supplament to an OP.
Sadly I do not accept that ,this is my personal view.
-----------------
I apologize to anyone reading this thread and to the mods and the devs ,that I derailed this tread,but I could not so do.
Nothing personal to anyone,cheers to all o/
I respect your desire to benefit the whole GF community, and that, in that desire, you would disagree with the philosophy I have put forth. I hope that others who read our respectful disagreement will learn how real conversation and dialogue can be had, while disagreeing, so that, in the end, IF changes are made, those who make the changes (devs) will be fully aware of multiple perspectives and concerns!
My philosophy is NOT to have the GF be a buff bot only.
My philosophy is to have the GF have a choice of many roles provided in the trees be viable in game that makes sense to each role.
Conqueror for dps.
Protector for debuffing mobs/bosses and party survival
Tactician for party buffing
Our point of disagreement is NOT on what we want, but how we get there.
Your position is that the GF is already not as tanky as an OP and therefore, adding a penalty to the Conqueror line in defense, would destroy this as an option. I agree with the first part (OPs are better tanks). I disagree with the second half (adding a penalty would destroy a playstyle).
Your stated reasons for disagreement are:
1) a large % of the playerbase would be affected, and, in competition for an OP tank, the GF would lose out.
2) the OP tank is better
3) my proposals only benefit myself and the 1% dps GFs.
4) my proposals would kill off the GF because there would be nothing left to do.
My reasons for stating the proposal are:
1) The Conqueror tree can be tweaked so that its dps increased for those GFs that want to be dps-focused
2) The Protector tree can be revitalized so that those players who want to have this playstyle can directly compete with the OP and not be shunned.
3) The Tactician tree can be revamped so that its buffs make sense.
None of these kill off playstyle, but makes options, MORE than what we have right now.
With this comes, of course, an understanding that content created will actually support such playstyle. For example, what if the Protector GFs line's 50% debuff affected the Call of Winter on Drufi, or Ras Nsi's soulmonger instant kill?
The main problem is that, in order to solve a problem, we sometimes are so far inside the problem, that we only look at symptoms and not the problem itself. I think it is a problem that, in your words, 0% of GFs play protector in end-game dungeons. THAT is a problem. No option.
I prefer to give an opinion that is outside the box, to stimulate solutions that might be able to untangle this rather unfortunate web we are bound in as GFs.
But, again, as you are in disagreement with my proposal or philosophy, which is your right as a person who enjoys and is passionate about the GF, I am glad that you have posted your disagreement.
Let us hope developers actually do understand with some insight the nature of the game, and the manner in which part of the GF play is in limbo, and that solutions would come in future mods.
Peace all!
Guild--And the Imaginary Friends
Funny thing is that being a tank means something when you leveling up, and on very low IL closer to end game, and end game meta you are, less it means. And due to a fact that you leveling up fast you may not even notice that.
What is worse for GFs and even OPs - that makes classes unable to tank at all in so much better situation . They already dont have a useless part of their tree and powers following it.
Exactly like @hypervoreian mentioned, but not just classes or trees but entire mechanic branch become more useless with every mode, DR, HP (not for AOC but survivial) Deflect who needs those when in end game meta party game comes down to - alive/immortal due to party composition and buffing/debuffing/dpsing or oneshoted regardless of your whole defensive capabilities at once.
First game killed entire CC - who would need that if mobs melts with a blink of an eye and bosses are immune.
Now its time for all kind of defences.
And that taken together put me in a situation when asked about - what changes would you like to see on your GF I am pretty much speechless. Ask for more DPS - so called dps classes will cry, ask for being more tanky - pointless. Whats left - buff/debuff.
Actually I got only 1 proposition here:
Increase a GF and GF only effective DR to 95% - and let 50% of that amount work out for ITF purposes.
That one move would both increase real tankiness of GFs and would boost most resonable buff it has.
And while some latest mobs and bosses do have some ArPen that would add for GFs a need to stack defence some more if they would like to keep buff at maximum level (110%DR)
In short dear @devs - let us do our job, 8 mods of nerfing or not touching at best in a row, is a bit too much dont you think?
Apart from the same repeat whiners on the forums, I've yet to hear ANYONE ingame complain about GF DPS. Sure I've heard people talk about their own classes needing a buff, but I never heard once someone say GFs are hurting the game, not once. But I think the DEVs already know this, which is why from the list of GF changes you can see that they want to keep it's damage where it is.
and also the featured satirical comedic adventure "A Call for Heroes".
Reckless Attacker provides 25% personal damage bonus. If your changes were applied, there'd be no reason to go Conqueror for dps, because Tactician would provide 55% more personal damage from buffed ITF.
KV DR bonus is irrelevant 90% of the time. The most damage you can take is the damage your allies have HP for. Personal defensive stats or simply shielding is enough to deal with that. The difference between rank 1 KV and rank 4 KV is unnoticable and irrelevant.
Your proposed changes kills Conqueror path, doesn't bring anything to the Protector path, so it also stays dead. And they make Tactician the only viable style of play.
Knights Valor DR - 5% per additional rank, down from 10%
InTo The Fray - 10% base +5% per additional rank (total 25%)
So, now that we know what i sugest as a nerf lets speciallize each class:
Conqueror Path: Does more damage but have less KV (5% per additional rank) and 25% ITF
And fixed Griffon Wrath
Protector Path: Brawling Warrior Feat: Now with 5 points gives 20% more DR per additional rank.
1 point: 8% (5% + 3%)
2 points: 11% (8% + 3%)
3 points: 14% (11% + 3%)
4 points: 17% (14% + 3%)
5 points: 20% (17% + 3%)
Unshakable Line: Each ally within 20' of you increases your stamina regen by 2/4/6/8/10% and party damage by 5/10/15/20/25%. (swich Unshakable line position with overwhelming impact, this prevent tactician/conqueror GF from adding points here, making it exclusive for protector)
A more protective path with increased KV and 50% damage buff (25% ITF + 25% Unshakable Line)
Tactician Path: Inspiring Leader: Now 5 points gives 20% per rank.
1 point: 12% (10% + 2%)
2 points: 14% (12% + 2%)
3 points: 16% (14% + 2%)
4 points: 18% (16% + 2%)
5 points: 20% (18% + 2%)
More buff (ITF 80%) but less KV (5% per aditional rank)
In Tactician it is obvious it needs more buffs and needs to scale off stats somehow (like make Recovery a thing) also some debuffs wouldnt be bad, right?
*Fight ON+CP, T1 feats... okay
*Daunting Challenge- correct the tooltip to state "less dmg to you and your allies"
*Battle Trample- get rid of it, its bugged and useless. Complete replacement is needed. Example: Marked targets have 5% less DR, deal 5% less dmg and allies gain 5% buff against them.
* Grim Promise- tie it to a different dayli like Supermacy of Steel, debuff should be general damage debuff not just self only.
* Rousing Speech- 10% AP gain and 10% RechargeSpeedIncrease
* United- You and allies take 10% less damage (not a DR buff but a direct reduction of damage)
* Inspiring Leader- 10% more ITF buff and 10% more AP gain
* Powerfull Strike- Comanders Strike does 50% of first encounters dmg, 40% of anothers, 30% of anothers etc. down to 0
* Surging Tide- Tide of Irons debuff is now general, not only for self.
* Terrifying Menace- untie it from a power, there are enough Tact powers tied with specific powers. All enemies in 30 range have 10% less DR and all allies within 30 are buffed by 10% for 5 secs whenever GF gets hit.
* Martial Mastery- the GF regenerates AP of party members by 5% every 5 seconds, every time hes hit regenerates another 5% of AP 2 sec cooldown and every time he uses an encounter he regenerates 10% AP over 5 seconds, stacks 5 times. (numbers are rough, cant be estimated like this without a testing in action)
For Conqueror id like to see rationalizing of feats, a big rework like for Tactician is not needed. The dmg nerf that some people cry for... well, just a tone down of KC is completly enough, with other paths being viable you will see less Conquerors and wont scare to outDPS your DPS :P. On the other hand, some AoE damage should be brought to GF.
* Improved Vigor- change to: when more than 50% health, gain 10% more Action Points. When >50% another 10% AP gain.
* Take Measure- 15% instead of mere 5% temp HP, 20 second cooldown.
* Wrathful Warrior- When you gain (instead of have) temp. HP you deal 15% more dmg for 10 seconds.
* Stunning Flourish- Swap it with Staying Power from Protector tree.
* Reinforced Surge- this feat doesnt work at all btw, its a blank space currently. Make it work and do 10% more instead of just 5%
* Jagged Blades- affected targets radiate 100% of JBs dmg to targets in X range, max 5 radiators radiating to max 5 targets.
* Crushing Shield- damage is increased by 10% when striking multiple targets - same to GWFs Mighty Blade
* Cruel Cut Style- tie it to Crushing Surge instead of so terribly clunky Cleave
* Staggering Challenge- OK
* Tactical Superiority- OK ... more or less, not much for a T5 feat, but fine.
* Menacing Impact- General 10% buff to daylies, and 5 second longer duration for SoS,FR,VM.
* Reckless Attacker- make it last 20 seconds and be gained on hitting rather than taking damage.
Powers need a rework too, their usefulness is broken down to few that are being used by almost all GF specs and the ones that are useless to all. But thats for a much longer post than this.
I know this (15) mod we are getting only little something, but mod 16 is bound to carry some bigger changes to GF, so i only hope devs will listen to players and will make more GF paths good and usefull while keeping Conqeror relevant.
conqueror ->hdps
Tactician -> dps/buffer
about gf tank, it's clearly need a good balance rework
https://my.mixtape.moe/iievbx.mp4
Sad to see that the annoying "step-in" of Aggravating Strike hasn't been addressed.
Somehow when I hear major rework I am almost sure that class reworked gona be unplayable for some time.
Crushing Surge At-Will, can you please (dev's) smooth animation of this skill, it very slow and clunky. I do belive its the slowest At-Will skill of any class curently in the game.
Into the Fray Encounter Power, this skill give very small amount of Temp HP points, I would apreciate very much if you could make the skill generate 15% of the Max Hp as Temp HP.
Enforced Threat Encounter Power, Please lower the cooldown on this skill, it's GF's one and only skill to generate threat, it would help imencly!
If you even consider reading my post (dev's) its apreciated.
But I wonder about the pretty small ammount of changes about GF-class in the sum.
Did i miss something ? Or did devs simply forgot about GF.
I read in the TR posts that a lot of ideas, mentioned in former threats, were brought into those patch nodes for the class, changes that were written down by long term player, ok @balanced#2849 said it is a rework, I think the second one I witnessed for TR, last bigger rework was mod 5 I guess.
Devs took that input and improved "stepchild-trees", sure they also did changes to obviously overperforming powerbuffs/loops, but forgot about their credo "small steps" as it looks like. I don´t want the class to be stomped in the ground , even though hated in PVP.
In case of GF there is nothing I can read out of those patch that can be found good or bad in any way. It´s nothing tbh, smaller nerfs etc.
Conqueror is in a good spot and does not need a lot attention.
I really don´t care about GF´s 3 hitting bosses, in case that´s what they like to do all day running beside a devo-OP, 2 DC's and another buffbot. Most player neither like to run in a fix setup like that, nor have the dps setup, nor the friendlist to fill in those spots all day , same as the playstyle is a butthurt anyway.
The focus should have been Protector and Tactitian, for ages now.
The difference between GF and OP tank is the most obvious disbalance in this game in my eyes.
Protector is a completely forgotten tree, the tree that fits in the main role of that class mostly.
It might be ment as the spec for low geared player, but there should have been a buff to tier 4 and 5 feats and capstone.
Prot. OP running AoC, AoW, Blitz, powerbuffs, debuffs 30%, on top of unlimited temp HP... there is no room for a GF running protector.
Same as tactitian is nothing than a buffbot, a 5. wheel more needed than wanted, concerning metaruns without a conqueror GF.