[Mod 15] What we like to see

majorcharvenak

gromovnipljesak#8234 said:

majorcharvenak said:

gromovnipljesak#8234 said:

majorcharvenak said:

gromovnipljesak#8234 said:

snotty said:

gromovnipljesak#8234 said:

A whole new 10 levels would make newer players able to catch up with us 17-18k beasties

Bull. All it will do is let you "beasties" become even more beast while the newer player will continue with the same problems.

Nope. If we have new powers, items, we're ALL starting from much less than we've had before.

On the same level, you can have 2, maybe 3 better items per mod - M13 was an example of this with Shadowstalker rings and fured kuino etc. With a new level cap, you have got to get all new gear if ya wanna be competitive, just like the rest of the playerbase.

Endgame players will ofc have an easier time, but that's a given since they have more time invested in the game. We all still had to get here, this just gives you a chance to do it more easily. If ya wanna be lazy, be lazy.

So it sounds like you ARE asking for mod 6 (v 2.0) kind of level increase. No thanks. I nearly quit the game the last time they moved the goal post that far.

Nope, I'm just asking for a level cap increase.

What I listed is what comes normally with a level cap increase. You can't (well, can - but probably shouldn't) have lvl80 characters with lvl 70 gear. For the same reason you ain't using lvl60 gear right now.

They don't even need to make the new gear something unique. The only thing they'd have to work on is new powers and feats, and if they want the class balance to remain identical, they can just make equal or worse powers for every class.

I never said anythin' about M6 and you do seem to be focused on it. And a game that never moves on is a game that stagnates.
For games, stagnation is equal to regression, since every other game will be trying to improve itself and give players something to strive for.

I mean, unless they decide to give us a Ring of Shadowstalker +10, which totally wouldn't be overpowered, and in that case, carry on. It seems no one gives a damn about power creep, which is the main reason half of my friends list left back during the bonding nerf. And getting more Lvl70 gear that people would actually want would mean more lvl70 gear that's more powerful than the current one.

I don't think we really need a new iteration of Hags rags with 13249% more damage.

I'm focused on Mod 6 because I remember what a pain in the backside that level cap increase was. I'm not saying the game shouldn't have one. I'm just saying that the way they did it last time, it was much more infuriating than the level increase Cryptic performed in STO - which took place at around the same time. Over there, you didn't have gear that you worked hard to achieve suddenly become worthless. You could use what dropped or craft and upgrade your current set. The level cap for new gear was set at the previous level of 50. The ship tier WAS also raised one level, but Cryptic provided an upgrade token that boosted your current endgame vessel half way between the old and new tier - just with some slightly reduced features. Those upgraded ships are still in use and still viable in spite of the fact that Cryptic just had another level increase from 60 to 65. From my perspective, it was pretty seamless. If they increase the powers, feats and boons, that's okay, but like you said, they'll probably have gear and items that drop during the level progression phase from 70 to 80. Just like they did in MOD 6. As long as they allow the current endgame gear to be viable (or better, incrementally increased but capped just below BiS) during the level progression phase, then I'm fine with it. As long as they don't change the salvage cap then I'm fine with it. As long as they don't drop trash gear (green) that's statistically far better than current endgame gear, then I'm fine with it, but if they follow the previous pattern of a level increase then I'm probably going to bow out.

Plus, like you said, 17-18K demigods and goddesses will probably have a much easier time of it since they already have max enchants, boons from campaigns completed, previous powers at max tier, max mounts and companions with top insignia and max bondings, so by definition the new players WONT be able to catch up with the 'beasties'. They'll just have to grind out both the level increase AND still update all the rest either via grind or becoming whales. It just sets the goal post for them a bit farther back. My two coppers.

The only possible issue I can see here is adapting the change from 70 to 80 in terms of content - something that can work for everyone in between, without the issue of having the >7 lvl difference resistances applied (eg lvl70 toon in lvl80 area would basically make you squish like a sponge).

They'd have to introduce 2 campaigns, or make 1 campaign and split it into 2 parts - up to lvl75, and then from 75 to 80.

Eg, Waterdeep is a massive content update, and that's what they've been hinting at for a while now, and that would definitely be fitting - there's plenty to explore there, and if they did it like M12 and 13 (or 12c, as I like to call it) - both are Chult, and if Soshenstar was up to 75, and Omu was up to 80, it would be perfect. That would be enough content to cover everything needed, minus the god awful boons we got there.

Also, to explain why lvl80 would make it easier for lower tier characters - let's look at M14.
When you entered the area, you were given certain pieces of gear. Those were really good for an alt, and the chest piece is BiS for CR due to the 5% DPS boost.

So if they did the same in M16 or whatever would Waterdeep be - they give gear that's mandatory to be competitive on lvl80, and replaces our current gear in a great majority of cases - we'd get rid of the OP, hard to get gear we currently have.

That would put our gear on the same level as everyone else - be it fresh max level toon or someone who has had maxed gear from before. Enchants are a different thing, but they can't give out end-game stuff for free - they still need something to make "end game" truly end game.

So the previously endgame characters would definitely have an easier time getting the gear, the newer ones would be able to attempt to get the same.

Let's make a hypothetical situation.
You have your average, relatively fit guy vs Usain Bolt in a relay race. However, whoever reaches the 1st "pass" (or relay, or whatever it's called) has to stop until the other guy catches up.

So Usain Bolt obviously finishes 1st, but then waits for the other guy for a few seconds, and then goes off again. Sure Usain will get to the next "pass" faster, but then again he trained for this sort of thing, so it's justified - AND it has given the other guy time to catch up.

The same would apply here - 16k+ players are now very far ahead because all of our gear is hard to get and we've played a lot for it. However, if you got everyone on lvl80 the same starting gear, you'd have the endgame players start from the same spot newer players are, just with a bit of a speed advantage due to the rest of the gear (enchants, pets, bondings...) being better.

However, everything else being the same gives new players a chance - as newer players can't hope to get Jawrippers, Fured Kiuno, Enduring boots and so on very quickly.

Now, some of the new gear could definitely stay viable due to the % damage increase (and I think that's why they added so many of those on new gear), however it DEFINITELY shouldn't be BiS or anything remotely close.

That way you get the same thing you got before with High Vizier or Grand Templar whatever those sets' names were - I can't remember, I'm senile. They'd just get nerfed and then thrown into oblivion. I still miss my Draconic weapons :c

Hmmm...Interesting. Might have to think on that one a little more. Though I think something like that would probably be better for Mod 16 with levels 71-75 being released as part of the first part of a Waterdeep/Undermountain campain with levels 76-80 coming when we would get Undermountain proper. I think it would also have to depend on how WoTC has their new Waterdeep (& Undermountain) campaign set up since NW has been mirroring their releases. We'll have to wait and see. Still...gonna think over what you proposed. You might have sold me or we'll just have to agree to disagree, @gromovnipljesak#8234 .

edit - I need to learn how to read. Still thinking over your proposal @gromovnipljesak#8234 when I noticed you mentioned how you would envision the level increase split into two parts and I essentially repeated it so please disregard. I'm still fixated on the gear though but I'll get back with you.

gromovnipljesak

majorcharvenak said:

gromovnipljesak#8234 said:

majorcharvenak said:

gromovnipljesak#8234 said:

majorcharvenak said:

gromovnipljesak#8234 said:

snotty said:

gromovnipljesak#8234 said:

A whole new 10 levels would make newer players able to catch up with us 17-18k beasties

Bull. All it will do is let you "beasties" become even more beast while the newer player will continue with the same problems.

Nope. If we have new powers, items, we're ALL starting from much less than we've had before.

On the same level, you can have 2, maybe 3 better items per mod - M13 was an example of this with Shadowstalker rings and fured kuino etc. With a new level cap, you have got to get all new gear if ya wanna be competitive, just like the rest of the playerbase.

Endgame players will ofc have an easier time, but that's a given since they have more time invested in the game. We all still had to get here, this just gives you a chance to do it more easily. If ya wanna be lazy, be lazy.

So it sounds like you ARE asking for mod 6 (v 2.0) kind of level increase. No thanks. I nearly quit the game the last time they moved the goal post that far.

Nope, I'm just asking for a level cap increase.

What I listed is what comes normally with a level cap increase. You can't (well, can - but probably shouldn't) have lvl80 characters with lvl 70 gear. For the same reason you ain't using lvl60 gear right now.

They don't even need to make the new gear something unique. The only thing they'd have to work on is new powers and feats, and if they want the class balance to remain identical, they can just make equal or worse powers for every class.

I never said anythin' about M6 and you do seem to be focused on it. And a game that never moves on is a game that stagnates.
For games, stagnation is equal to regression, since every other game will be trying to improve itself and give players something to strive for.

I mean, unless they decide to give us a Ring of Shadowstalker +10, which totally wouldn't be overpowered, and in that case, carry on. It seems no one gives a damn about power creep, which is the main reason half of my friends list left back during the bonding nerf. And getting more Lvl70 gear that people would actually want would mean more lvl70 gear that's more powerful than the current one.

I don't think we really need a new iteration of Hags rags with 13249% more damage.

I'm focused on Mod 6 because I remember what a pain in the backside that level cap increase was. I'm not saying the game shouldn't have one. I'm just saying that the way they did it last time, it was much more infuriating than the level increase Cryptic performed in STO - which took place at around the same time. Over there, you didn't have gear that you worked hard to achieve suddenly become worthless. You could use what dropped or craft and upgrade your current set. The level cap for new gear was set at the previous level of 50. The ship tier WAS also raised one level, but Cryptic provided an upgrade token that boosted your current endgame vessel half way between the old and new tier - just with some slightly reduced features. Those upgraded ships are still in use and still viable in spite of the fact that Cryptic just had another level increase from 60 to 65. From my perspective, it was pretty seamless. If they increase the powers, feats and boons, that's okay, but like you said, they'll probably have gear and items that drop during the level progression phase from 70 to 80. Just like they did in MOD 6. As long as they allow the current endgame gear to be viable (or better, incrementally increased but capped just below BiS) during the level progression phase, then I'm fine with it. As long as they don't change the salvage cap then I'm fine with it. As long as they don't drop trash gear (green) that's statistically far better than current endgame gear, then I'm fine with it, but if they follow the previous pattern of a level increase then I'm probably going to bow out.

Plus, like you said, 17-18K demigods and goddesses will probably have a much easier time of it since they already have max enchants, boons from campaigns completed, previous powers at max tier, max mounts and companions with top insignia and max bondings, so by definition the new players WONT be able to catch up with the 'beasties'. They'll just have to grind out both the level increase AND still update all the rest either via grind or becoming whales. It just sets the goal post for them a bit farther back. My two coppers.

The only possible issue I can see here is adapting the change from 70 to 80 in terms of content - something that can work for everyone in between, without the issue of having the >7 lvl difference resistances applied (eg lvl70 toon in lvl80 area would basically make you squish like a sponge).

They'd have to introduce 2 campaigns, or make 1 campaign and split it into 2 parts - up to lvl75, and then from 75 to 80.

Eg, Waterdeep is a massive content update, and that's what they've been hinting at for a while now, and that would definitely be fitting - there's plenty to explore there, and if they did it like M12 and 13 (or 12c, as I like to call it) - both are Chult, and if Soshenstar was up to 75, and Omu was up to 80, it would be perfect. That would be enough content to cover everything needed, minus the god awful boons we got there.

Also, to explain why lvl80 would make it easier for lower tier characters - let's look at M14.
When you entered the area, you were given certain pieces of gear. Those were really good for an alt, and the chest piece is BiS for CR due to the 5% DPS boost.

So if they did the same in M16 or whatever would Waterdeep be - they give gear that's mandatory to be competitive on lvl80, and replaces our current gear in a great majority of cases - we'd get rid of the OP, hard to get gear we currently have.

That would put our gear on the same level as everyone else - be it fresh max level toon or someone who has had maxed gear from before. Enchants are a different thing, but they can't give out end-game stuff for free - they still need something to make "end game" truly end game.

So the previously endgame characters would definitely have an easier time getting the gear, the newer ones would be able to attempt to get the same.

Let's make a hypothetical situation.
You have your average, relatively fit guy vs Usain Bolt in a relay race. However, whoever reaches the 1st "pass" (or relay, or whatever it's called) has to stop until the other guy catches up.

So Usain Bolt obviously finishes 1st, but then waits for the other guy for a few seconds, and then goes off again. Sure Usain will get to the next "pass" faster, but then again he trained for this sort of thing, so it's justified - AND it has given the other guy time to catch up.

The same would apply here - 16k+ players are now very far ahead because all of our gear is hard to get and we've played a lot for it. However, if you got everyone on lvl80 the same starting gear, you'd have the endgame players start from the same spot newer players are, just with a bit of a speed advantage due to the rest of the gear (enchants, pets, bondings...) being better.

However, everything else being the same gives new players a chance - as newer players can't hope to get Jawrippers, Fured Kiuno, Enduring boots and so on very quickly.

Now, some of the new gear could definitely stay viable due to the % damage increase (and I think that's why they added so many of those on new gear), however it DEFINITELY shouldn't be BiS or anything remotely close.

That way you get the same thing you got before with High Vizier or Grand Templar whatever those sets' names were - I can't remember, I'm senile. They'd just get nerfed and then thrown into oblivion. I still miss my Draconic weapons :c

Hmmm...Interesting. Might have to think on that one a little more. Though I think something like that would probably be better for Mod 16 with levels 71-75 being released as part of the first part of a Waterdeep/Undermountain campain with levels 76-80 coming when we would get Undermountain proper. I think it would also have to depend on how WoTC has their new Waterdeep (& Undermountain) campaign set up since NW has been mirroring their releases. We'll have to wait and see. Still...gonna think over what you proposed. You might have sold me or we'll just have to agree to disagree, @gromovnipljesak#8234 .

Who could've told that game design would've paid off in random internet arguments xd

In any case, the only really "hard" part is bridging between 70 and 80 - making the transition obvious, but seamless. That's just one variation of an idea we've had.

wisper2048

I would like lure management for mod 12/13 to be the same as in mod 14. It should stack and be tradeable on auction house. These will simplify life of those who trying to catch up and it will give a reason to return for those who completed campaign.

majorcharvenak

Looks like some of our arguments are moot since they've just released the Mod 15 changes.

gromovnipljesak

majorcharvenak said:

Looks like some of our arguments are moot since they've just released the Mod 15 changes.

I woke up 30 minutes ago and I'm still laughing after I saw those discord pics... oh god this brings a tear to my eye.

theycallmetomu

So, am I the only one who wants to see augments returned to being a top tier option in the meta?

I was too lazy/cheap to switch to something else+bondings, and now I have 3 rank 13s on my Ioun Stone of Allure. How do I convince the devs that augments should be king of the world again?

majorcharvenak

theycallmetomu said:

So, am I the only one who wants to see augments returned to being a top tier option in the meta?

I was too lazy/cheap to switch to something else+bondings, and now I have 3 rank 13s on my Ioun Stone of Allure. How do I convince the devs that augments should be king of the world again?

Give it time. I'm sure the "Good-idea Fairy" will find a way to run this idea through one of the devs to 'balance' the game. For those not familiar with the term, see here : https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=good idea fairy

theycallmetomu

majorcharvenak said:

theycallmetomu said:

So, am I the only one who wants to see augments returned to being a top tier option in the meta?

I was too lazy/cheap to switch to something else+bondings, and now I have 3 rank 13s on my Ioun Stone of Allure. How do I convince the devs that augments should be king of the world again?

Give it time. I'm sure the "Good-idea Fairy" will find a way to run this idea through one of the devs to 'balance' the game. For those not familiar with the term, see here : https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=good idea fairy

Look, all I'm saying is, right now the current meta is Bonding or Bust. If Ioun Stones are gonna be available in the Zen shop, they should at least be playable endgame.

Alternatively, I guess a useful enough augment companion drop from a lockbox would work, but it would need to have a really good active bonus to make up for the fact that you can't use bondings.

majorcharvenak

theycallmetomu said:

majorcharvenak said:

theycallmetomu said:

So, am I the only one who wants to see augments returned to being a top tier option in the meta?

I was too lazy/cheap to switch to something else+bondings, and now I have 3 rank 13s on my Ioun Stone of Allure. How do I convince the devs that augments should be king of the world again?

Give it time. I'm sure the "Good-idea Fairy" will find a way to run this idea through one of the devs to 'balance' the game. For those not familiar with the term, see here : https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=good idea fairy

Look, all I'm saying is, right now the current meta is Bonding or Bust. If Ioun Stones are gonna be available in the Zen shop, they should at least be playable endgame.

Alternatively, I guess a useful enough augment companion drop from a lockbox would work, but it would need to have a really good active bonus to make up for the fact that you can't use bondings.

I can agree with that or make so that some classes obtain a greater benefit from using an augment vice a bonded and vice versa while in group play.

theycallmetomu

Alternatively, make all companions augment companions [CLARIFYING EDIT: in that, you get the stats of your companion while it's summoned, not that your companion goes away], get rid of bonding runestones entirely (allow players to convert their bondings to another runestone of the same rank), and then just give what are currently augment companions a special active bonus that makes the loss of a physical companion worth it.

Like, if we look at the current meta and say "well, ignoring the stat bonuses from bonding runestones, what is worth to your overall character effectiveness?" And then target that.

So maybe an Ioun Stone of Allure could give a charisma bonus. An Ioun Stone of Might could give a strength bonus. And so on. Since ability scores tie directly into +damage on a 1% per basis, it'd be pretty easy to measure.

EDIT: also, get rid of Eldritch Enchantments, because as written, they're flat-out better than all non-bonding runestones once your companion has sufficient gear for anything with augments.

majorcharvenak

That seems...at least to my limited grasp...this would make having an active companion about as popular as having an augment is right now. They would only be good for the both the legendary and active bonus but that's about it. Personally I could go either way but I highly doubt the rest of the player-base would be keen on that idea.

theycallmetomu

majorcharvenak said:

That seems...at least to my limited grasp...this would make having an active companion about as popular as having an augment is right now. They would only be good for the both the legendary and active bonus but that's about it. Personally I could go either way but I highly doubt the rest of the player-base would be keen on that idea.

I guess the question is, ignoring bonding runestones, how valuable is having an active companion? My understanding is that things like the Chultan Tiger give damage debuffs on enemies that are actually a considerable DPS boost for the user, hence why I'm at such a disadvantage for using an augment companion.

So what you end up doing is comparing the debuffs et al of active companions, and then find some kind of stat bonus that corresponds to that. Depending on what the math says, it could be as low as a flat +400 power (after accounting for the "Active bonus" all companions get), or could be +2 or more to an ability score.

I don't have the exact math for how effective an active companion is once you take out the Bonding Runestone effectiveness aspect, so I couldn't tell you what the proper breakeven would be.

As an augment companion user, I'd be okay with erring on the side of making augment companions less useful than non-augment companions; just less so than they currently are in the endgame meta.

gromovnipljesak

They'd have to do more than just give stats tho. Maybe give a shitload of stats more to compensate for the difference that happens due to stat share?

theycallmetomu

gromovnipljesak#8234 said:

They'd have to do more than just give stats tho. Maybe give a shitload of stats more to compensate for the difference that happens due to stat share?

Well the concept was that both "augments" and non-augments would give 100% of stat points while summoned, and the companions that currently are augments would either have more stat points than other companions (in the "measured in increments of 400 power" range probably; again depends on the math) or have an ability score bonus while summoned.

The Ability Score bonus idea is just to link the mechanics back to D&D. An Ioun Stone of Allure in D&D, for instance, is a charisma boosting item. You can think of +1 Int as being worth around 400 recovery and between 400 and 800 power (depending on the user's power). Whether that's worth the loss of the powers of a non-augment companion I don't know (again, I wish there was a good crunchy math source for this sort of thing).

That being said, I think most people are just fine with the "Bonding is the only runestone that matters in the endgame" model, so it's low priority. It just wounds my soul is all.