Are we playing the same game? (The anti-meta bogus)

almondum

Hello everyone,

Short version: Lately, well, maybe for some months now (?), I have been seeing a lot of complaints regarding the meta-groups compositions.
Why everyone is complaining? You are not supposed to copy other people, just form your own group. You can't? No problem(!), make friends and join a friendly and helpful guild and do dungeons with them/their alliance! That is what I do, it's simple really! DON'T force others' choices on yourself, just make use of your friends/guild/knowledge (yeah, you need to read/watch videos) to progress!

Long version: Get an active guild, make friends and band together against the new challenges created by our esteemed devs! Don't look at those meta groups, they do work of course, but it does not mean that what you want (1 tank, 1 healer, 3 dps) doesn't. I have done a bit of both, and all it takes, is INFORMED people. Before venturing into the unexplored waters, just do a guild google search and read the basics about each boss. I assure you, it will help! Make sure your class build is working/viable. Why I can't have any build I like you ask? Because Devs are still working on making every tree build viable for all classes. It is a work in progress and right now, at least 1 build works for each class and can be used in end content (Castle Ravenloft, Cradle of the Dead Gods and lower stuff). Read, Lean and Socialize!

Due to ignorance (people being unwilling to learn), things like requirement to have mass scrolls of life in PUGS for Castle Ravenloft have emerged. This is not Devs fault and it means bad news(!). It's players' fault, who do not wish to learn and want to ignore tactics in order to succeed. Why a casual player like me, will risk 10 or more Mass Scrolls with a bunch of strangers to maybe finish the dungeon. Does it make sense to you, that just because folks don't want to read/watch videos people like me and other casuals have to risk 50k AD (10 scrolls at minimum) for a single dungeon run to "attempt" finishing it? Well, think a little more before jumping to conclusions and blaming the Devs.

This is an MMO, we are supposed to communicate with each other and make "virtual friendships" that sometimes can or not flourish into something real. Make friends, join communities and beat the content. I can't advertise good alliances/guilds in this thread as it's forbidden by law (game rules), but I assure you, there are plenty of cheerful and active guilds that welcome active/casual players willing to learn and cooperate to beat the content legitimately.

Like in real life, don't try to fit into someone's pattern, sew your own!

I wish you luck in your endeavours,
Have fun!

Almondum

Edit: some major typos I found when reading through it quickly for the second time

chivonica

Errm. I was with you up until you started calling people ignorant and unwilling to learn and placing a lot of the so called blame on the players. There are many problems with the game atm in terms of this subject. Sure some are due to players but they are only working with what the Devs put in front of them.

This forum is for feedback and discussion on subjects and is filled with massive amounts of such on this topic. That alone should indicate there are problems for a lot of players. Take some time to really read some of the topics and you will see very detailed information on what is causing these perceived and actual problems in game.

They range from balancing classes, content difficulty, mechanics, Min iL reqs, Max iL achievability, RQ accessibility and enjoyment, Private queue becoming the go to tool to use over RQ for a myriad of reasons and concerns over player interest vs business interests to name but a few.

These are definitely not all or even remotely a majority of ignorant players unwilling to learn or adapt. In fact many of these players have extensive knowledge of the game and have chosen to adapt to different classes/META because of the current and past situations even though they may not of wanted to. You also have those who cling to dear life for their class even though they may lack up until a certain iL hoping for better days ahead.

When a tool such as RQ is put in the game to help players access content easier and the majority choose to avoid it at Adv./Expert there are problems and no, its not because all the players there except a few are ignorant or unwilling to learn lol. RQ at those levels are cancerous in its current implementation and push people towards private queues or away completely. This is a massive game changing tool put in for players, all but useless to a lucky few runs with over geared characters ignored by the majority of players its meant for. They no doubt have the data to verify this as well.

If they can really sort out RQ without just increasing the iL (which personally I'm not against), they will probably resolve a lot of these problems as they would have to address a lot of things that make people avoid it and/or run to private queues instead. To me these problems are one and the same but highlighted more in RQ.

In the relatively short period but not time I have played I've seen some sweeping changes so I don't doubt that they work hard to address some concerns of the players nor incapable of doing so but in the mean time threads on these topics will continue unless there's no one affected who cares left to post. It is what it is.

vorphied

This thread strikes me as another well-intentioned "forget the meta" message gone awry.

I'm going only with the short version because this has been beaten into the ground too many times:

- Few players dispute the value of forming social connections in a game like this.

- Class balance issues remain fair game for constructive feedback, regardless of how one feels about playing with guild and friends.

- CR is still extremely buggy with an erratic soak mechanic, frequent invisible splats, phase skipping, etc., etc. This has nothing to do with casual vs. not-casual, but it does affect the community's use of scrolls.

- Again, the message of "play together and have fun" stands on its own. Players absolutely should be informed regarding "meta" gameplay and how classes function more or less objectively. Even among friends, no one really enjoys watching their chosen class noticeably underperform at its target role compared to similarly equipped and experienced peers. They also don't necessarily enjoy taking unnecessarily long dungeon trips if their intent is to complete content efficiently rather than to go for a relaxed run. Cryptic bears a great deal of responsibility because they are the ones who control the code; we can't simply state or imply that all would be well if only players would take it upon themselves to ignore what is most efficient and makes the most sense from a game mechanics perspective.

mentinmindmaker

Playing the game in a social context certainly is important.

However, that does not invalidate the meta. You will find most endgame groups are running in close to meta setups because not doing so will lead to very slow and long dungeon clears. Even in a social setting people want a minimum of efficiency.

Having a social group to play with does not really get rid of the meta, it just mitigates it a little. It could actually lead to pressure to raise and play alts so the social group is able to field meta-like groups.

Some classes are still left out in the cold.

kangkeok

If meta is not the problem here, u will see archery HR as main dps firing from range or will u see virtuos DC healing the party or an off-tank gwf saving his party mate etc. No, because they are not part of meta. A lot of things has been taken out of the game making some class just not viable anymore yet they still exist and its part of the game. Player that play those class either being force into playing those class that are in meta to stay in the game or remain loyal to his class and get alienate from group content. I blame the developer for leaving those class in fotm spot light for too long and neglecting those class that need a boost. Like all MMO, class balance need to be updated constantly to avoid a stagnant meta from happening. Thats causing some player to be isolated from group content for more than a Mod. Just saying.

thefabricant

Agreed with the OP.

CR can be beat with 1 op, 1 gf, 3 non gwf/tr classes in 22-25 minutes by a co-ordinated team if they are trying to. Same team will manage 30-35 minutes without much effort if they are just running casually, both runs without using scrolls. In fact, I would rather run with that team composition then with 2 dc, 1 prot op, 2 dps, since devo OP+gf is a better party composition for CR.

kangkeok said:

If meta is not the problem here, u will see archery HR as main dps firing from range or will u see virtuos DC healing the party or an off-tank gwf saving his party mate etc. No, because they are not part of meta. A lot of things has been taken out of the game making some class just not viable anymore yet they still exist and its part of the game. Player that play those class either being force into playing those class that are in meta to stay in the game or remain loyal to his class and get alienate from group content. I blame the developer for leaving those class in fotm spot light for too long and neglecting those class that need a boost. Like all MMO, class balance need to be updated constantly to avoid a stagnant meta from happening. Thats causing some player to be isolated from group content for more than a Mod. Just saying.

No, you are saying, "everything should be able to beat everything" and then complaining because you cannot beat CR naked using level 1 weapons basically. Archery HR is bad, its a fact and the problem is not with the content but with the spec. CR is not balanced around a specific subset of classes although I would argue it favors OP and GF more than dcs. If you are not able to get into CR because you are playing Archery HR, it is your own fault. The game should have difficult content, it should have content that excludes people who aren't at the top of their game.

Arguing it should not is like saying, "players that want difficult content should not be allowed to have it and all the content in the game should be designed for me." No, there is plenty of content designed for "every spec" that caters to the player who wants to play bad builds, more of it then end game content. Castle Ravenloft is content aimed at a specific subset of players and it is a step in the right direction. It is still imo not hard enough, but it is for me a lot more fun to run then anything else. And no, I don't think they should make an "easy" version of it for the people who cannot run it currently, as having only a hard version gives them something to work towards.

almondum

chivonica said:

They range from balancing classes, content difficulty, mechanics, Min iL reqs, Max iL achievability, RQ accessibility and enjoyment, Private queue becoming the go to tool to use over RQ for a myriad of reasons and concerns over player interest vs business interests to name but a few.

These are definitely not all or even remotely a majority of ignorant players unwilling to learn or adapt. In fact many of these players have extensive knowledge of the game and have chosen to adapt to different classes/META because of the current and past situations even though they may not of wanted to. You also have those who cling to dear life for their class even though they may lack up until a certain iL hoping for better days ahead.

When a tool such as RQ is put in the game to help players access content easier and the majority choose to avoid it at Adv./Expert there are problems and no, its not because all the players there except a few are ignorant or unwilling to learn lol. RQ at those levels are cancerous in its current implementation and push people towards private queues or away completely. This is a massive game changing tool put in for players, all but useless to a lucky few runs with over geared characters ignored by the majority of players its meant for. They no doubt have the data to verify this as well.

@chivonica
- Balancing classes? If you read everything, you would have read that every class has at very least 1 viable setup that is effective. Majority of classes have 2 specs. A player just need to open the browser, read a bit and choose. This is not a PVP related topic, and regarding PVE there's a role for every class to fullfill.
- Content difficulty/mechanics. Our Devs have been getting better and better with boss fights creation. If you look to the very first fights the game had, they are nothing more than a pure DPS race with some minor mobs appearing here and there. Now we have boss fights with 2-3 different phases and the need to interact with objects/players. You want all that gone, just because some folks are lazy to quickly check a 90 seconds videos in rapid motion to understand the fight? FBI/TONG/CR/Merchant's Folly are steps in the right direction where you don't just smash things without having to make at least a single extra thought or pay attention to something else than numbers.
- Min IL requirements/Max IL achievablity. Minimum IL is used as a reference to new players so they are aware if they character is ready to attempt the dungeon and it's not a fixed value that guarantees your success if you reach it, id est, it avoids pointless attempts of completion persued by unprepared players. Max IL achievability could serve as a measure of progression for many players and its gradual increase can serve as a motivation to play to some people, for instance, min-maxers.
IL is not a perfect system to judge one's character, but it still does a decent job to know if a certain person has the endurance to withstand the damage and strength to beat the monsters in a certain dungeons. The problem with IL, is that it considers all stats, even if they are useless for a certain class build. This means that we can have a an Anoited Champion Devoted Cleric stacking deflection and armor penetration with rank 13 enchantments and see a high item level...even if that setup is horrible and has no use in PVE. Due to this problem, there are still TONG runs with 15k IL players failing...as people with completely wrong specs/stats attempt the dungeon and fail to pass the DPS check at the first boss (Orcus).
- RQ accessibility and enjoyment. RQ is accessible to everyone, reach the intended IL and you may try to complete the dungeon alone or with your friends. Enjoyment? What do you mean? I for one, have liked the gradual diversity that each new dungeon brings to the game. Who could imagine that one day in NWO we would be resisting strong winds on a little platform that intend to throw us into a boiling cauldon of plasma? Who could imagine that one day in NWO one would carry and wield a holy sword against supreme evil? Even questing has improved. I am sure many folks have already tried the Nostura Mini-dungeon in River District and had fun there. There are also similar mini-dungeons for Kabal and Gyrion.


There are many players who are ignorant and unwilling to learn and adapt.
I do at minimum 15 REQs a day, with just 1 friend and roughly half of them are CR. I will assume 7, although I'm a pessimist and for me it's an 8. This means that 3 other people are randoms. Within 1 week (7 playing days) of REQ (my holidays started back then \o/) 100% of Castle Ravenloft runs failed (7*7 = 49 runs) due to people NOT knowing tactics. Apart from that, I found people with horrible gear and enchantment choices. I won't even comment their DPS. Once I or my friend tried to explain the tactics, people ignored our advice, didn't answer or approved them and tried to follow. We even gave links to videos and guide for people to read in 5 minutes...the result? 49 failed runs.
The majority of people don't want to learn, the just want to sit down on their computer after work and smash things without thinking to forget their stresses from that day. It's upon Devs to choose whom to cater. I hope they choose to cater folks who enjoy thinkings and planning/interacting, because if they choose to remove the little challenge there is, a lot of people will move on to new shores.


- Private Queue "pushing"? Noone is pushing you, except for Atropal/Acererak maybe, to the private queue. The private queue allows you to do dungeons with your friends/family/guild/etc, it allows you to choose with whom you wish to play. What is wrong with that? People don't like playing with their friends? Why should we be forced to play with random players if we don't want to? This is an MMO game, we are supposed to socialize and create virtual bonds and play with people whom we liked. As I wrote above, I did several REQs in the past week, with "randoms"...you read the result.
Why should one expose himself/herself to such "torture" if one can just play with friends/people who listen and read? Once again, random adventuring fails because people don't read/watch tactics before going into a hard dungeon and don't build their characters correctly, once again, because they don't read/watch class related content. Ignorance is no bliss in this context...it only ruins your and others' gaming experience. People will complain that queues are bad until everyone becomes informed.

vorphied said:

This thread strikes me as another well-intentioned "forget the meta" message gone awry.

- Again, the message of "play together and have fun" stands on its own. Players absolutely should be informed regarding "meta" gameplay and how classes function more or less objectively. Even among friends, no one really enjoys watching their chosen class noticeably underperform at its target role compared to similarly equipped and experienced peers. They also don't necessarily enjoy taking unnecessarily long dungeon trips if their intent is to complete content efficiently rather than to go for a relaxed run. Cryptic bears a great deal of responsibility because they are the ones who control the code; we can't simply state or imply that all would be well if only players would take it upon themselves to ignore what is most efficient and makes the most sense from a game mechanics perspective.

@vorphied , there is no need to be 100% informed in "meta" gameplay to progress. There is how to play the class X properly, and there is how to make a run faster/easier to complete several times in a row, aka meta. It's important to distinguish both as if not, one might think that you can't play outside meta which is competely false. You are saying that certain classes are underperforming, in which role? All of them? Every class have at least 1 role that is viable, working and is wanted in group content. It's obvious that all of us would like to see more spec variations in the future and our Devs certainly know that. Right now, everyone has the option to play their class effectively, there is no excuse to use underperforming builds in group content until they receive improvements.


@mentinmindmaker

mentinmindmaker said:

Playing the game in a social context certainly is important.

However, that does not invalidate the meta. You will find most endgame groups are running in close to meta setups because not doing so will lead to very slow and long dungeon clears. Even in a social setting people want a minimum of efficiency.

Having a social group to play with does not really get rid of the meta, it just mitigates it a little. It could actually lead to pressure to raise and play alts so the social group is able to field meta-like groups.

Some classes are still left out in the cold.

Why meta should be invalidated? Meta gameplay allows you to complete dungeons faster and in an easier way, so you can repear the "drill" several times in a row within a short time-frame. Noone forbids you do a non-meta group and if you do so, there is no content that you can't complete, and no, it does not take a very very long time, it just takes slightly more than a meta group. The point of meta is that this "slightly more" becomes a lot if you farm the same dungeons over and over through the day/week, id est, meta is used for farming purposes most of the time.

frogwalloper

I don't think it's bogus.

Inflexibility in group composition and character speccing isn't exactly a good thing, and it's even more worrisome when it's justified. That's one reason why people 'complain.'

It's true that a lot of players who don't conform, just don't know how. But there's also that elite group of players with enough skill, knowledge, and imagination to challenge the status quo, and even they have trouble queuing sometimes because nothing sticks to meta quite like a group of scrubs - who are inflexible by nature. While the public queue is...public, it's invariably the domain of the scrub. They're not fun to deal with. That's another reason why people 'complain.'

Really, the public queue isn't a great place to try to enforce some meta. You could just as easily tell people who insist on it to form their own groups, play only with friends, join a guild, etc... Same goes for farming runs - meta's great for that, but the public queue's probably not the best venue. Yet another reason for all the 'complaining.'

vorphied

almondum said:

vorphied said:

This thread strikes me as another well-intentioned "forget the meta" message gone awry.

- Again, the message of "play together and have fun" stands on its own. Players absolutely should be informed regarding "meta" gameplay and how classes function more or less objectively. Even among friends, no one really enjoys watching their chosen class noticeably underperform at its target role compared to similarly equipped and experienced peers. They also don't necessarily enjoy taking unnecessarily long dungeon trips if their intent is to complete content efficiently rather than to go for a relaxed run. Cryptic bears a great deal of responsibility because they are the ones who control the code; we can't simply state or imply that all would be well if only players would take it upon themselves to ignore what is most efficient and makes the most sense from a game mechanics perspective.

@vorphied , there is no need to be 100% informed in "meta" gameplay to progress. There is how to play the class X properly, and there is how to make a run faster/easier to complete several times in a row, aka meta. It's important to distinguish both as if not, one might think that you can't play outside meta which is competely false. You are saying that certain classes are underperforming, in which role? All of them? Every class have at least 1 role that is viable, working and is wanted in group content. It's obvious that all of us would like to see more spec variations in the future and our Devs certainly know that. Right now, everyone has the option to play their class effectively, there is no excuse to use underperforming builds in group content until they receive improvements.

- I didn't state that one needs to be 100% informed in meta gameplay simply to progress; I implied that it would be helpful to know what's going on with the meta, which I believe is true, especially for players who spend any amount of time in public queues.

- I think most players on this forum recognize that there is no requirement to play strictly within the meta. Anyone who has ever succeeded with an objectively sub-optimal setup will agree that meta does not rule all.

- I don't really understand your point about underperforming classes. The most obvious exception to what you appear to be suggesting is CW, which has no build or path that is close to universally wanted. There are few, if any, circumstances in which the party would be better served to take a CW either as main DPS or as support over a different class. Again, CW can do the job, but if we're talking about relative performance, CW lags behind. Also, maybe I'm the one not getting your point...on one hand you seem to be suggesting that players need to be social and not rely on the meta, but on the other you say "there is no excuse to use underperforming builds in group content until they receive improvements." That strikes me as a very pro-meta argument.

therealprotex

thefabricant said:

Arguing it should not is like saying, "players that want difficult content should not be allowed to have it and all the content in the game should be designed for me." No, there is plenty of content designed for "every spec" that caters to the player who wants to play bad builds, more of it then end game content. Castle Ravenloft is content aimed at a specific subset of players and it is a step in the right direction. It is still imo not hard enough, but it is for me a lot more fun to run then anything else. And no, I don't think they should make an "easy" version of it for the people who cannot run it currently, as having only a hard version gives them something to work towards.

I'd almost agree with you. If it was for content alone. But it isn't. No matter how good the sun weapons turn out to be, they are - in their restaurated form - available only by running CR multiple times. And if CR is content that excludes certain classes or builds, the currently (alleged) top weapon set is excluded from these classes, too.

I do not have to run CR actually, because I do not like the Ravenloft setting too much for Neverwinter. But I would like to be able to earn this weapon set as any other player, too, who happens to play a class and build that is favored by the current Dev team.

And btw, what I said about the weapon set is also true for the 550 armours. You can not get them without running CR at the moment.

So in the end it IS Cryptic who is to blame: If what you said was their plan, they "forgot" to implement content, where non-CR-eligible classes and builds can get/farm/grind their BiS equipment. If it was not their plan, they deliberately favored some classes over others and approved or even supported the current meta actively.

almondum

frogwalloper#6494 said:

I don't think it's bogus.

Inflexibility in group composition and character speccing isn't exactly a good thing, and it's even more worrisome when it's justified. That's one reason why people, 'complain.'

It's true that a lot of players who don't conform, just don't know how. But there's also that elite group of players with enough skill, knowledge, and imagination to challenge the status quo, and even they have trouble queuing sometimes because nothing sticks to meta quite like a group of scrubs - who are inflexible by nature. While the public queue is...public, it's invariably the domain of the scrub. They're not fun to deal with. That's another reason why people, 'complain.'

Really, the public queue isn't a great place to try to enforce some meta. You could just as easily tell people who insist on it to form their own groups, play only with friends, join a guild, etc... Same goes for farming runs - meta's great for that, but the public queue's probably not the best venue.

@frogwalloper#6494 What group compositon inflexibility? Please explain. A tank (GF or OP), a healer (OP or DC) and 3 DPS can complete any content right now.
Yesterday, at late evening, I completed Castle Ravenloft for the first time with this group composition: Guardian Fighter, Devoted Cleric, Control Wizard, Control Wizard and a Trickster Rogue. The only person I knew in that group, was my control wizard friend, we joined through public random expert queue, and the that run felt like a miracle as you can imagine. We used 1 single scroll of Mass Life on the last boss, for a person who got "stunned/feared" and killed inside the kidnapping room.
Regarding the character speccing being inflexible (PVE), while it is true for 1 class, the remaining 7 classes have at least 2 builds to choose from. It's obvious that we all want more diversity, but having 7 classes with at least 2 options + 1 build from 8th class, that means 15 builds at least to choose from. It is also important to note, that within the same class, the builds don't do the same thing and may serve different roles. The latter is good, as it gives more playstyles to choose from.

The elite players. This elite group of players with enough skill, knowledge and imagination spend hours of their time testing game mechanics and class feats with program like ACT to write and post guides and spreadsheets on this forums and other websites for you and me to read. I'm a casual, and I'm glad there are still dedicated players who test and PUBLISH the information they find! Without these players, I would not know what to do in Castle Ravenloft and there would be no accurate guides to read/watch.

almondum

therealprotex said:

And btw, what I said about the weapon set is also true for the 550 armours. You can not get them without running CR at the moment.

So in the end it IS Cryptic who is to blame: If what you said was their plan, they "forgot" to implement content, where non-CR-eligible classes and builds can get/farm/grind their BiS equipment. If it was not their plan, they deliberately favored some classes over others and approved or even supported the current meta actively.

@therealprotex

I agree with you in regards of the Sun Weapons. The 550 IL armor pieces can be obtained without doing Castle Ravenloft by finishing Random Expert Queue and earning 20 seals of the crown for the first run at that day and 10 seals for the subsequent successful runs. You can argue that CR "drops" in that queue, and that's fine as you can practice and teach others how to do the first boss (and kill it) or leave after 15 minutes if it does not work (vote to abandon) or leave if someone else leaves first (abandon instance without incurring queue penalty). I farm the seals of the crown this way, to get my 550 IL armor, I "aim" at the TONG runs as I can buff my friends to do damage and if we get a tank who can read/play he holds aggro while my friends kills the bosses. If you have a DC friend, or are a DC yourself this becomes easier as you enter the queues faster. I gathered 350 seals this way.

It's also true that some builds (feat branches) in certain classes are not viable for the current content, the classes themselves are viable through at least 1 build. Maybe there is a "build" preference (example: buffing/debuffing builds being preferred to pure healing builds), there is no class preference. Every class can enter any dungeons and complete it with other players as long as the players knows how to play and uses a viable build.
Why blame the farmers/metas (not saying you blame them, speaking in general), instead of requesting a fix/rework on unviable feat branches? It is not the fault of experienced players that a class works the way it works. They should't be "nerfed" for that. We all know how RNG work in this game, for seasoned players who are active and don't spend real money, farm is required. They have no other choice but to optimize their farm, hence meta usage is so popular.

thefabricant

therealprotex said:

thefabricant said:

Arguing it should not is like saying, "players that want difficult content should not be allowed to have it and all the content in the game should be designed for me." No, there is plenty of content designed for "every spec" that caters to the player who wants to play bad builds, more of it then end game content. Castle Ravenloft is content aimed at a specific subset of players and it is a step in the right direction. It is still imo not hard enough, but it is for me a lot more fun to run then anything else. And no, I don't think they should make an "easy" version of it for the people who cannot run it currently, as having only a hard version gives them something to work towards.

I'd almost agree with you. If it was for content alone. But it isn't. No matter how good the sun weapons turn out to be, they are - in their restaurated form - available only by running CR multiple times. And if CR is content that excludes certain classes or builds, the currently (alleged) top weapon set is excluded from these classes, too.

I do not have to run CR actually, because I do not like the Ravenloft setting too much for Neverwinter. But I would like to be able to earn this weapon set as any other player, too, who happens to play a class and build that is favored by the current Dev team.

And btw, what I said about the weapon set is also true for the 550 armours. You can not get them without running CR at the moment.

So in the end it IS Cryptic who is to blame: If what you said was their plan, they "forgot" to implement content, where non-CR-eligible classes and builds can get/farm/grind their BiS equipment. If it was not their plan, they deliberately favored some classes over others and approved or even supported the current meta actively.

1) It isn't the best set, except for if you are running CR, in which case it is the best set only for the dungeon itself.
2) I don't see why players who are playing casually, who want to play thematic non optimal builds should have access to the best gear. Best rewards should be for the hardest content. If a player decides for themselves that they want x item and it happens to be from the hardest content, then they also need to accept the work involved that comes with it. That means they need to make their character CR capable. and need to be willing to play a build that can complete that content.

kangkeok

thefabricant said:

Agreed with the OP.

CR can be beat with 1 op, 1 gf, 3 non gwf/tr classes in 22-25 minutes by a co-ordinated team if they are trying to. Same team will manage 30-35 minutes without much effort if they are just running casually, both runs without using scrolls. In fact, I would rather run with that team composition then with 2 dc, 1 prot op, 2 dps, since devo OP+gf is a better party composition for CR.

kangkeok said:

If meta is not the problem here, u will see archery HR as main dps firing from range or will u see virtuos DC healing the party or an off-tank gwf saving his party mate etc. No, because they are not part of meta. A lot of things has been taken out of the game making some class just not viable anymore yet they still exist and its part of the game. Player that play those class either being force into playing those class that are in meta to stay in the game or remain loyal to his class and get alienate from group content. I blame the developer for leaving those class in fotm spot light for too long and neglecting those class that need a boost. Like all MMO, class balance need to be updated constantly to avoid a stagnant meta from happening. Thats causing some player to be isolated from group content for more than a Mod. Just saying.

No, you are saying, "everything should be able to beat everything" and then complaining because you cannot beat CR naked using level 1 weapons basically. Archery HR is bad, its a fact and the problem is not with the content but with the spec. CR is not balanced around a specific subset of classes although I would argue it favors OP and GF more than dcs. If you are not able to get into CR because you are playing Archery HR, it is your own fault. The game should have difficult content, it should have content that excludes people who aren't at the top of their game.

Arguing it should not is like saying, "players that want difficult content should not be allowed to have it and all the content in the game should be designed for me." No, there is plenty of content designed for "every spec" that caters to the player who wants to play bad builds, more of it then end game content. Castle Ravenloft is content aimed at a specific subset of players and it is a step in the right direction. It is still imo not hard enough, but it is for me a lot more fun to run then anything else. And no, I don't think they should make an "easy" version of it for the people who cannot run it currently, as having only a hard version gives them something to work towards.

First of, I would like to correct your statement as I do not say that the content should be kept away from player that wants difficult content. In fact, content should not be kept away from player based on the class they play. Its like you are not allowed to buy iPhone x because you choose to be doctor. People should be given a fair chance of accessing it. It just makes no sense and the company ( in our case, the developer) should responsible to ensure their product is indiscriminate and not the other way around. It should not be hindered by the class the player picked. Gear wise, yes. I agree that people should work on gear to able to join end game content. If its not for the poor class balance in this game that got people ousted from content, I would not have complain much.

kvet

My only input to this thread is... stop moaning about things like "I'm an Archery HR and can't get into DDs" -- Because of loadouts, one is not an "Archery HR" anymore - it's just HR and one can be whatever kind of HR one want to be for any given run. Just build out a new (or respec an old) loadout to fit whatever the needs are. If one doesn't know how to play a different style of HR, that's not a meta problem, that's not a DD problem, that's just something the player needs to practice with a bit. The power of loadouts is the fact that you can tune your character much more broadly to fit different needs.

As far as the difficulty discussion - it's only hard now. Sooner or later, it will be easy for anyone just like so many other dungeons that were hard when they were first released. I would entirely, however, agree that the best rewards should only be available to those willing to put the effort and time (and, yes, money if you're in a hurry) into learning and mastering the most difficult aspects of the game. "Causal" players with mediocre (aka "thematic") builds who spend most of their time goosing each other in the Moonstone Mask or whatever, simply don't deserve to be able to earn the top-end gear. You can't not-play and expect to be on par with characters that play for real all the time.

thefabricant

kangkeok said:

thefabricant said:

Agreed with the OP.

CR can be beat with 1 op, 1 gf, 3 non gwf/tr classes in 22-25 minutes by a co-ordinated team if they are trying to. Same team will manage 30-35 minutes without much effort if they are just running casually, both runs without using scrolls. In fact, I would rather run with that team composition then with 2 dc, 1 prot op, 2 dps, since devo OP+gf is a better party composition for CR.

kangkeok said:

If meta is not the problem here, u will see archery HR as main dps firing from range or will u see virtuos DC healing the party or an off-tank gwf saving his party mate etc. No, because they are not part of meta. A lot of things has been taken out of the game making some class just not viable anymore yet they still exist and its part of the game. Player that play those class either being force into playing those class that are in meta to stay in the game or remain loyal to his class and get alienate from group content. I blame the developer for leaving those class in fotm spot light for too long and neglecting those class that need a boost. Like all MMO, class balance need to be updated constantly to avoid a stagnant meta from happening. Thats causing some player to be isolated from group content for more than a Mod. Just saying.

No, you are saying, "everything should be able to beat everything" and then complaining because you cannot beat CR naked using level 1 weapons basically. Archery HR is bad, its a fact and the problem is not with the content but with the spec. CR is not balanced around a specific subset of classes although I would argue it favors OP and GF more than dcs. If you are not able to get into CR because you are playing Archery HR, it is your own fault. The game should have difficult content, it should have content that excludes people who aren't at the top of their game.

Arguing it should not is like saying, "players that want difficult content should not be allowed to have it and all the content in the game should be designed for me." No, there is plenty of content designed for "every spec" that caters to the player who wants to play bad builds, more of it then end game content. Castle Ravenloft is content aimed at a specific subset of players and it is a step in the right direction. It is still imo not hard enough, but it is for me a lot more fun to run then anything else. And no, I don't think they should make an "easy" version of it for the people who cannot run it currently, as having only a hard version gives them something to work towards.

First of, I would like to correct your statement as I do not say that the content should be kept away from player that wants difficult content. In fact, content should not be kept away from player based on the class they play. Its like you are not allowed to buy iPhone x because you choose to be doctor. People should be given a fair chance of accessing it. It just makes no sense and the company ( in our case, the developer) should responsible to ensure their product is indiscriminate and not the other way around. It should not be hindered by the class the player picked. Gear wise, yes. I agree that people should work on gear to able to join end game content. If its not for the poor class balance in this game that got people ousted from content, I would not have complain much.

Every class can run CR, the only classes with an "advantage" over any other class when it comes to CR is the OP and the GF, that is it. Every DPS can do CR, if you choose to play an archery hr, you are choosing not to be able to run CR, since the HR class is fine.

pitshade

I've completed CR with an Archer on the team.

chivonica

@almondum

Your op and title as well as some other posts suggest that the META does not really matter, that its just there for a slightly faster run and people complaining are ignorant and/or unwilling to learn based on your experiences.

You blame players for a lot that is outside their control and suggest workarounds. Say dont copy people but use other peoples knowledge, videos, builds and guides etc to succeed or imply PQ with friends/guildies etc. A lot of people do/have done this already because of past and current situations. You also provide a slight but not detailed insight into your endgame runs/experience which generally blame peoples ignorance and in some areas you yourself even mention details on devs on going process of balancing etc.

I listed a few but hot and relevant topics in relation to yours. They and others contribute to the sum of the games experience and need to be considered as a whole. You listed and touched upon some of them and I am not saying you are wrong on what you wrote about these but nothing of what you wrote suggests to me that the META situation and peoples concerns are Bogus. In many places you even confirm some concerns people have on these matters.

Work arounds are just that. They usually leave the main problem(s) in place. I have not said I wanted anything nerfd/buffed, taken out completely etc etc. Maybe your You was generic/universal but I personally have not mentioned anything of that kind here, just an inkling of raising RQ iL reqs in some areas and addressing why PQ is so overwhelmingly preferred by the majority of the player base over RQ at those lvls. Again all things must be considered.

Imo you have not done anything to quell these concerns except provide workarounds or say things that a lot of people don't already know or do and does not change the situation for many. I do not expect you, I or anyone else to provide all the answers especially as we are not paid to do so but there are many suggestions already. Devs/company will do what they want in the end. Like I said, I was with you until a certain point as there are so many other things that contribute to the actual or perceived problem(s).

kangkeok

thefabricant said:

kangkeok said:

thefabricant said:

Agreed with the OP.

CR can be beat with 1 op, 1 gf, 3 non gwf/tr classes in 22-25 minutes by a co-ordinated team if they are trying to. Same team will manage 30-35 minutes without much effort if they are just running casually, both runs without using scrolls. In fact, I would rather run with that team composition then with 2 dc, 1 prot op, 2 dps, since devo OP+gf is a better party composition for CR.

kangkeok said:

If meta is not the problem here, u will see archery HR as main dps firing from range or will u see virtuos DC healing the party or an off-tank gwf saving his party mate etc. No, because they are not part of meta. A lot of things has been taken out of the game making some class just not viable anymore yet they still exist and its part of the game. Player that play those class either being force into playing those class that are in meta to stay in the game or remain loyal to his class and get alienate from group content. I blame the developer for leaving those class in fotm spot light for too long and neglecting those class that need a boost. Like all MMO, class balance need to be updated constantly to avoid a stagnant meta from happening. Thats causing some player to be isolated from group content for more than a Mod. Just saying.

No, you are saying, "everything should be able to beat everything" and then complaining because you cannot beat CR naked using level 1 weapons basically. Archery HR is bad, its a fact and the problem is not with the content but with the spec. CR is not balanced around a specific subset of classes although I would argue it favors OP and GF more than dcs. If you are not able to get into CR because you are playing Archery HR, it is your own fault. The game should have difficult content, it should have content that excludes people who aren't at the top of their game.

Arguing it should not is like saying, "players that want difficult content should not be allowed to have it and all the content in the game should be designed for me." No, there is plenty of content designed for "every spec" that caters to the player who wants to play bad builds, more of it then end game content. Castle Ravenloft is content aimed at a specific subset of players and it is a step in the right direction. It is still imo not hard enough, but it is for me a lot more fun to run then anything else. And no, I don't think they should make an "easy" version of it for the people who cannot run it currently, as having only a hard version gives them something to work towards.

First of, I would like to correct your statement as I do not say that the content should be kept away from player that wants difficult content. In fact, content should not be kept away from player based on the class they play. Its like you are not allowed to buy iPhone x because you choose to be doctor. People should be given a fair chance of accessing it. It just makes no sense and the company ( in our case, the developer) should responsible to ensure their product is indiscriminate and not the other way around. It should not be hindered by the class the player picked. Gear wise, yes. I agree that people should work on gear to able to join end game content. If its not for the poor class balance in this game that got people ousted from content, I would not have complain much.

Every class can run CR, the only classes with an "advantage" over any other class when it comes to CR is the OP and the GF, that is it. Every DPS can do CR, if you choose to play an archery hr, you are choosing not to be able to run CR, since the HR class is fine.

If I choose to play archery HR and I m being denied of content then something is wrong with the balance within HR class. It only allow HR player to play as trapper or combat to be able to access end game content. HR is fine. Its just not balance. CW class is balanced because all of the 3 tree are viable. Content shouldn't be denied because of class balance.

therealprotex

thefabricant said:

therealprotex said:

thefabricant said:

Arguing it should not is like saying, "players that want difficult content should not be allowed to have it and all the content in the game should be designed for me." No, there is plenty of content designed for "every spec" that caters to the player who wants to play bad builds, more of it then end game content. Castle Ravenloft is content aimed at a specific subset of players and it is a step in the right direction. It is still imo not hard enough, but it is for me a lot more fun to run then anything else. And no, I don't think they should make an "easy" version of it for the people who cannot run it currently, as having only a hard version gives them something to work towards.

I'd almost agree with you. If it was for content alone. But it isn't. No matter how good the sun weapons turn out to be, they are - in their restaurated form - available only by running CR multiple times. And if CR is content that excludes certain classes or builds, the currently (alleged) top weapon set is excluded from these classes, too.

I do not have to run CR actually, because I do not like the Ravenloft setting too much for Neverwinter. But I would like to be able to earn this weapon set as any other player, too, who happens to play a class and build that is favored by the current Dev team.

And btw, what I said about the weapon set is also true for the 550 armours. You can not get them without running CR at the moment.

So in the end it IS Cryptic who is to blame: If what you said was their plan, they "forgot" to implement content, where non-CR-eligible classes and builds can get/farm/grind their BiS equipment. If it was not their plan, they deliberately favored some classes over others and approved or even supported the current meta actively.

1) It isn't the best set, except for if you are running CR, in which case it is the best set only for the dungeon itself.
2) I don't see why players who are playing casually, who want to play thematic non optimal builds should have access to the best gear. Best rewards should be for the hardest content. If a player decides for themselves that they want x item and it happens to be from the hardest content, then they also need to accept the work involved that comes with it. That means they need to make their character CR capable. and need to be willing to play a build that can complete that content.

@thefabricant it is not the question if a someone plays casually or if someone is willing to do the work involved to run end game content. I know casual players who are by far more dedicated, who invest far more brain work in their chars than some 24/7 players. The point is that they invested in a class and build that is FUN for them to play. And that class and build is no longer eligible for end game content.

In an ideal world, why should it be legitimate that for example a top BiS GWF out-dps'es a top BiS SW by far? Why shouldn't classes with the same role produce similar results? Why shouldn't players choose classes by the subjective fun factor instead of the objective eligibility to run end game content? The fact that we are far away from this ideal world, the fact that we are far away from classes being balanced, the fact that in the recent past there have been more changes that increase the class imbalance than decrease it, that all is not any player's fault, it is Cryptic's.

hastur905

@kangkeok @thefabricant @kvet I am not really going to get into the whole meta discussion, I have found that running more of a rainbow party has been more beneficial for both speed and ease. I have run my Archery spec through CR quite a number of times as both main dps in a Meta party and in a rainbow party. It does do less damage than a Combat build and so it can take a bit longer on the second boss, and you have to be a little more careful on the first boss, but it is definitly doable. SO the question of having to be combat spec is not true, but I do not disagree that it is inferior for damage compared to a combat. My build is a hybrid build so it is not pure Archer, so if ur point is that the trees are not balanced then that can be said about any class.

Most of the builds I have seen, and ones that I run, never have all the feats in one tree, sometimes its 5, or 10, and in rare cases 15 points in another tree. Does that make them unbalanced? Would I like Archery to be better, I would be a fool to say no, but that is the same refrain from anyone, playing any class, at anytime in NWO history. I mean people talk about the OP being "OP", but that class only has one viable build, Justice and 15 points in Light, is that balanced? Let's not even talk about GWF, too many things to say about GWF but they have a tree balance issue as well.

My hope is that you are seeing my point, Archery is viable, maybe not bis as a main dps, but viable. Build and playstyle will have a lot to do with how successful you are in endgame dungeons. You will not see a full Bulwark OP running CR, neither should a full Archer. If you choose those builds then that is your choice, just be sure that you choose your friends wisely and good luck to you.

frogwalloper

almondum said:

What group compositon inflexibility? Please explain.

- was just trying to point out some of the reasons people express concern, or complain about the meta. That's all. One reason is that a significant number of players have gotten it into their heads that harder content can only be completed with certain characters who've taken a specific paragon path and selected a specific set of feats - and cannot be completed by certain other characters or those who have chosen a different paragon path or some other feat. These pedants are one of the reasons public queuing is painful.

On the one hand as you and a few others have pointed out, they're wrong.

Yet, on the other hand, they're right. When it comes to efficiency and rate of success, the optimal party compositions are exclusive.

That's two causes for concern, and they highlight areas in need of improvement. Hence the complaining 'cause that's what we do.

I liked that you pointed out that class balance is a work in progress. I suppose it almost always is in any decent multiplayer, and I'm excited to see how the devs respond. In the meantime, I actually do sympathize with the most experienced players and completely understand why they're selective. People may have the right to try and get into challenging content with subpar characters, but experienced players have every right to run them off.

thefabricant

hastur905 said:

@kangkeok @thefabricant @kvet I am not really going to get into the whole meta discussion, I have found that running more of a rainbow party has been more beneficial for both speed and ease. I have run my Archery spec through CR quite a number of times as both main dps in a Meta party and in a rainbow party. It does do less damage than a Combat build and so it can take a bit longer on the second boss, and you have to be a little more careful on the first boss, but it is definitly doable. SO the question of having to be combat spec is not true, but I do not disagree that it is inferior for damage compared to a combat. My build is a hybrid build so it is not pure Archer, so if ur point is that the trees are not balanced then that can be said about any class.

Most of the builds I have seen, and ones that I run, never have all the feats in one tree, sometimes its 5, or 10, and in rare cases 15 points in another tree. Does that make them unbalanced? Would I like Archery to be better, I would be a fool to say no, but that is the same refrain from anyone, playing any class, at anytime in NWO history. I mean people talk about the OP being "OP", but that class only has one viable build, Justice and 15 points in Light, is that balanced? Let's not even talk about GWF, too many things to say about GWF but they have a tree balance issue as well.

My hope is that you are seeing my point, Archery is viable, maybe not bis as a main dps, but viable. Build and playstyle will have a lot to do with how successful you are in endgame dungeons. You will not see a full Bulwark OP running CR, neither should a full Archer. If you choose those builds then that is your choice, just be sure that you choose your friends wisely and good luck to you.

Just because you can get 4 other people to carry you through something, does not make archery hr viable. In fact, I consider it 1 of the worst specs in the game right now, in the same pool as a non destroyer gwf or damnation SW. Sure, you can have 1 or 2 people in a CR group with specs like that and have no issues, but 5? Then you will encounter problems. Can it still be completed? Yes, but considering how much longer it will take then a run with proper builds I do not consider it viable.

kangkeok

hastur905 said:

@kangkeok @thefabricant @kvet I am not really going to get into the whole meta discussion, I have found that running more of a rainbow party has been more beneficial for both speed and ease. I have run my Archery spec through CR quite a number of times as both main dps in a Meta party and in a rainbow party. It does do less damage than a Combat build and so it can take a bit longer on the second boss, and you have to be a little more careful on the first boss, but it is definitly doable. SO the question of having to be combat spec is not true, but I do not disagree that it is inferior for damage compared to a combat. My build is a hybrid build so it is not pure Archer, so if ur point is that the trees are not balanced then that can be said about any class.

Most of the builds I have seen, and ones that I run, never have all the feats in one tree, sometimes its 5, or 10, and in rare cases 15 points in another tree. Does that make them unbalanced? Would I like Archery to be better, I would be a fool to say no, but that is the same refrain from anyone, playing any class, at anytime in NWO history. I mean people talk about the OP being "OP", but that class only has one viable build, Justice and 15 points in Light, is that balanced? Let's not even talk about GWF, too many things to say about GWF but they have a tree balance issue as well.

My hope is that you are seeing my point, Archery is viable, maybe not bis as a main dps, but viable. Build and playstyle will have a lot to do with how successful you are in endgame dungeons. You will not see a full Bulwark OP running CR, neither should a full Archer. If you choose those builds then that is your choice, just be sure that you choose your friends wisely and good luck to you.

If u are talking about mix build it is subjective. Have u tried doing the traditional pure archer way? Because archery, trapper & combat has different playstyle. If u are following hybrid build that plays like a trapper that someone post up in this forum or some hybrid point blank setup, sure it might be viable. But archery will lose it ingenuity. Still that does not restore its original playstyle back into the game. Its just a pity that we loses a playstyle in this game. Also hybrid build or mix build shouldn't be performing better that pure build tree. It should have the flexibility of all the tree it mixed in but it never will surpass pure build tree. That is balance. Anyway, its not about non meta class can do a content. Its about how well it is tolerate in this community. Sure u can have a group of buddy, saying Hey I wanna test archery build in this run. Care to join? But how many strangers are willing to take non meta class in their group? I cant blame them either. Like @thefabricant , they just think they are bad and who is the real culprit? Cryptic. I m not trying to change or asking to nerf the meta. I m trying to let the developer know that they have neglected quite a few class in the past. Its time to boost them up to the meta level so player that plays those class have an equal chance with those that are in the meta in accessing the content.

almondum

vorphied said:

- I didn't state that one needs to be 100% informed in meta gameplay simply to progress; I implied that it would be helpful to know what's going on with the meta, which I believe is true, especially for players who spend any amount of time in public queues.

- I think most players on this forum recognize that there is no requirement to play strictly within the meta. Anyone who has ever succeeded with an objectively sub-optimal setup will agree that meta does not rule all.

- I don't really understand your point about underperforming classes. The most obvious exception to what you appear to be suggesting is CW, which has no build or path that is close to universally wanted. There are few, if any, circumstances in which the party would be better served to take a CW either as main DPS or as support over a different class. Again, CW can do the job, but if we're talking about relative performance, CW lags behind. Also, maybe I'm the one not getting your point...on one hand you seem to be suggesting that players need to be social and not rely on the meta, but on the other you say "there is no excuse to use underperforming builds in group content until they receive improvements." That strikes me as a very pro-meta argument.

@vorphied

I will try to clarify to the best of my ability.

- I took it too literally then. What I meant to note is simple, as long as you/your group are well informed regarding the class you play and know the fights, you don't need to use a meta setup/read about all dungeon shortcuts or memorize all rooms with mobs for buffing purposes, etc.

- I agree. Meta is used mostly for farming and it does not mean that different class compositions will fail. This is true, to the extend that their classes are well build/used (for the current game challenges). Example: Orcus Green Ball one shots people and there is no way to heal it through, a Faithful DO/AC Clerics joins the group and is asked to switch to Righteous to help overcome the challenge. In my opinion, the cleric should humbly switch to the request loadout. Why? Due to the mechanics of that fight: it is a DPS race without any need for heals. The goal is to kill Orcus before the cursed player with Temporary Points dies.
I also believe that this is the main problem, people wanting to fit class builds into environments where those don't belong, and that's is where many people think that they are refused because of the "meta gameplay", but it's not, it's just their lack of understanding of the fight. In the end, players who used meta setups are blamed, and they shouldn't (I just tried to exemplify, I hope it's easier to understand this way).

- Regarding the underperforming classes, I was trying to explain that every class has at least one setup that works/is used for the current content, I didn't mean that all classes are on equal grounds regarding DPS, my point is that every class has an option to be viable for the current content. I only have a CW alt, and from what I remember they can spec into Masters of Flame and full a support or DPS roles. Of course all us wants to have more options, like to be able to have a CW do damage on equal level to GWFs, but that's all balance and it's up to Devs to change that. My post intends to defend the players who farm (use meta), it is not their fault that balance is not equal for all classes and that there's a lack of content for each spec of each class. The social argument attempts to remind players that they have friends and are free to build their own groups (their own class compositions), that they are not "dependant of the invite requests of other people who post on Zone/LFG/other channels", if they wish to be dependent of those offers, then they must accept their terms and not try to force something people don't want into the group. I also believe we have different definitions of meta, as I treat it as farming in the shorter time possible. Knowledge of one's class is independent of meta, while meta assumes that you know enough about your class and the content to do it on a fast manner synergizing with your teammates. I tried to denote that distinction in the beginning as it's very important, since knowledge allows you to progress further (with or without a meta group combo), while copying a meta group setups with no knowledge might keep you on the same spot.

almondum

chivonica said:

@almondum

Your op and title as well as some other posts suggest that the META does not really matter, that its just there for a slightly faster run and people complaining are ignorant and/or unwilling to learn based on your experiences.

You blame players for a lot that is outside their control and suggest workarounds. Say dont copy people but use other peoples knowledge, videos, builds and guides etc to succeed or imply PQ with friends/guildies etc. A lot of people do/have done this already because of past and current situations. You also provide a slight but not detailed insight into your endgame runs/experience which generally blame peoples ignorance and in some areas you yourself even mention details on devs on going process of balancing etc.

I listed a few but hot and relevant topics in relation to yours. They and others contribute to the sum of the games experience and need to be considered as a whole. You listed and touched upon some of them and I am not saying you are wrong on what you wrote about these but nothing of what you wrote suggests to me that the META situation and peoples concerns are Bogus. In many places you even confirm some concerns people have on these matters.

Work arounds are just that. They usually leave the main problem(s) in place. I have not said I wanted anything nerfd/buffed, taken out completely etc etc. Maybe your You was generic/universal but I personally have not mentioned anything of that kind here, just an inkling of raising RQ iL reqs in some areas and addressing why PQ is so overwhelmingly preferred by the majority of the player base over RQ at those lvls. Again all things must be considered.

Imo you have not done anything to quell these concerns except provide workarounds or say things that a lot of people don't already know or do and does not change the situation for many. I do not expect you, I or anyone else to provide all the answers especially as we are not paid to do so but there are many suggestions already. Devs/company will do what they want in the end. Like I said, I was with you until a certain point as there are so many other things that contribute to the actual or perceived problem(s).

@chivonica

I don't understand why I need to provide the details of all those runs to prove a point, they wouldn't even fit in here.
What I am trying to say with this post is simple: Don't blame players who use Meta for their farming/other uses. Devs do what they can, and I am sure that sooner or later, new options will come and players might persue other builds. Until then, I believe meta players should not be blamed for not accepting players who used class builds that don't fit the current challenge. I tried to exemplify this in my previous post.

For a player to progress, he/she needs to know how to efficiently use their class and how the fight they are about to face is. When I invoke ignorance within the playerbase, it's regarding the former sentence.

I meant "you" in general and apologize if something there sounded directed on you, it wasn't.
I haven't indeed, the workarounds were a courtesy and intend to aid people. My workaround in most cases is very simple, be informed and play with friends/guild! If all 5 members in a group are informed and the group has a normal composition (1 tank, 1 healer and 3 dps or a meta group), I don't see how the they will fail (except for bugs of course).

pterias

I think what people are upset over regarding the meta is that there is a massive imbalance between DPS and support. Most people *want* to play DPS, while most people only *get* to play support. The ability for people to impose upon the charity of friends doesn't resolve that problem. At best, you have to have a support and a DPS both at top tier so you can brown-nose and guilt your way into occasionally getting to play what you really want to play. If you can't afford that and you don't have a 4-man Sherpa-support team willing to drag you through content all the time, you get to make a support character only or not play endgame stuff at all.

Also, I know some may act differently, but this isn't a 'player' problem (if that's what you're feeling defensive about), it's a game design problem. The meta exists this strongly because Cryptic has created an imbalanced system that doesn't reflect what people want to actually play, nor does it reflect their original design intent of 1 Tank, 1 Healer, 3 DPS. Pointing this out isn't an attack on you and your friends, it's to draw the company's attention to a very real problem they've created that is causing a lot of stress to a wide swath of the playerbase.

wintersmoke

almondum said:

frogwalloper#6494 said:

I don't think it's bogus.

Inflexibility in group composition and character speccing isn't exactly a good thing, and it's even more worrisome when it's justified. That's one reason why people, 'complain.'

It's true that a lot of players who don't conform, just don't know how. But there's also that elite group of players with enough skill, knowledge, and imagination to challenge the status quo, and even they have trouble queuing sometimes because nothing sticks to meta quite like a group of scrubs - who are inflexible by nature. While the public queue is...public, it's invariably the domain of the scrub. They're not fun to deal with. That's another reason why people, 'complain.'

Really, the public queue isn't a great place to try to enforce some meta. You could just as easily tell people who insist on it to form their own groups, play only with friends, join a guild, etc... Same goes for farming runs - meta's great for that, but the public queue's probably not the best venue.

@frogwalloper#6494 What group compositon inflexibility? Please explain. A tank (GF or OP), a healer (OP or DC) and 3 DPS can complete any content right now.
Yesterday, at late evening, I completed Castle Ravenloft for the first time with this group composition: Guardian Fighter, Devoted Cleric, Control Wizard, Control Wizard and a Trickster Rogue. The only person I knew in that group, was my control wizard friend, we joined through public random expert queue, and the that run felt like a miracle as you can imagine. We used 1 single scroll of Mass Life on the last boss, for a person who got "stunned/feared" and killed inside the kidnapping room.
Regarding the character speccing being inflexible (PVE), while it is true for 1 class, the remaining 7 classes have at least 2 builds to choose from. It's obvious that we all want more diversity, but having 7 classes with at least 2 options + 1 build from 8th class, that means 15 builds at least to choose from. It is also important to note, that within the same class, the builds don't do the same thing and may serve different roles. The latter is good, as it gives more playstyles to choose from.

The elite players. This elite group of players with enough skill, knowledge and imagination spend hours of their time testing game mechanics and class feats with program like ACT to write and post guides and spreadsheets on this forums and other websites for you and me to read. I'm a casual, and I'm glad there are still dedicated players who test and PUBLISH the information they find! Without these players, I would not know what to do in Castle Ravenloft and there would be no accurate guides to read/watch.

The problem isn't the theory crafters. The problem is that the information that the theory crafter produce then gets absorbed & applied to public group runs (for which it was not intended) and becomes the measuring stick by which most parties are formed.

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almondum

chivonica said:

@almondum

Your op and title as well as some other posts suggest that the META does not really matter, that its just there for a slightly faster run and people complaining are ignorant and/or unwilling to learn based on your experiences.

You blame players for a lot that is outside their control and suggest workarounds. Say dont copy people but use other peoples knowledge, videos, builds and guides etc to succeed or imply PQ with friends/guildies etc. A lot of people do/have done this already because of past and current situations. You also provide a slight but not detailed insight into your endgame runs/experience which generally blame peoples ignorance and in some areas you yourself even mention details on devs on going process of balancing etc.

I listed a few but hot and relevant topics in relation to yours. They and others contribute to the sum of the games experience and need to be considered as a whole. You listed and touched upon some of them and I am not saying you are wrong on what you wrote about these but nothing of what you wrote suggests to me that the META situation and peoples concerns are Bogus. In many places you even confirm some concerns people have on these matters.

Work arounds are just that. They usually leave the main problem(s) in place. I have not said I wanted anything nerfd/buffed, taken out completely etc etc. Maybe your You was generic/universal but I personally have not mentioned anything of that kind here, just an inkling of raising RQ iL reqs in some areas and addressing why PQ is so overwhelmingly preferred by the majority of the player base over RQ at those lvls. Again all things must be considered.

Imo you have not done anything to quell these concerns except provide workarounds or say things that a lot of people don't already know or do and does not change the situation for many. I do not expect you, I or anyone else to provide all the answers especially as we are not paid to do so but there are many suggestions already. Devs/company will do what they want in the end. Like I said, I was with you until a certain point as there are so many other things that contribute to the actual or perceived problem(s).

@chivonica (my "you" was generic, and I apologize if, somewhere in there, it sounded direct/agressive, that wasn't the intent at all)

I'm not sure why I am supposed to provide my personal experience of all those runs, they woudn't even fit in here, I could use it to try to prove a point, but its purpose was mostly illustrative, to explain a point.
With this post I'm trying to defend the players who use meta, the bogus reffers to "the anti-players who use meta game play bogus", as it is not their fault that the game is how it is. Devs do what they do, and hopefully soon they will introduce new builds that can be used by us.

I know that many people want to play class paths that currently are "out of context", id est, don't fit the fight mechanics the game currently has (this assuming that everyone - 5 people - goes with "custom" specs instead of a tested and viable specs. I made an attempt to exemplify this in my previous reply to Vorphield. Meta players shoudn't be blamed for refusing people whose builds don't currently fit the content. Meta gaming primarily serves to repeat content several times on a regular basis, it's like a tool free players use to progress as they don't have money to buy their progress or simply enjoy doing it this way.

Knowledge is what makes players to progress through content, and that is my biggest advice to everyone, to learn about their classes and boss fights and then try it out. That's also where I seen people to lack knowledge, folks don't know what they are doing in new dungeons and bring high item level characters who don't seem to be effective in combat.

When I spoke about using the knowledge of others (copying), I meant that folks should learn what others tested (so they don't spend their own time, casuals for instance) and apply it in their guild/friends runs. If someone goes into a dungeon with their friends where everyone studies the fight and have well built characters, I don't see how the challenge won't be surpassed, unless there are fight breaking bugs. You can take a rainbow party and it will succeed, just respect the tactics and bring a well build character.

Workarounds were not the emphasis of this post, they were a courtesy to aid players. Private Queue will always be preffered to Public Queue as long as one has friends/guilds or wishes to fit into the demands of "pugs meta farmers". Private queue is a tool to play with whom we like, and if it's taken away (not saying Chivonica wishes it to be taken away) it would harm the game a lot.

I wish to, although not here for, to find a solution to the current problems. You said it well, there are several problems that need solving, but we can't blame the playerbase for the way the game works. If we wish to play, we can learn and adapt (simultaneously request changes if needed) or just wait for the game to become what we want, if it ever does. The meta concept and players are not the problem here, there is no point in blaming them, they simply adapted to what there is. I believe we should try to request/suggest changes to the unviable class paths rather than pointing fingers at each other (once again, I don't mean that it was Chivonica who said this).

chivonica

@almondum No need for apologies I just wanted to know but ty for the thought. I honestly did not get these impressions from your op and some others, maybe its just the way I read them.

Yes I agree on not blaming players even if they are elitist/picky call it w/e as its their preference how and who they play with. Yes it can create a nasty atmosphere within the game depending upon the severity but it is still their choice and options are open to us all, be it solutions or workarounds. But yeh there are on going dev processes too.

I didn't/don't want you to list your full experiences but in relation to such topics it helps understand more. Pointless to say everything is ok with a full 18k knowledgeable group who farm everything pretty much exclusively together and substitute 1 player per run with their 13k alt or some random. Not saying you said/do this and its a bit extreme but you get my point.

Yes ignorant or lazy players do exist. Everyone knows this. I still get Tiamat RQ and find I'm 1 of only 3 people in a whole raid who actually picked up a soul and even then 1 or 2 of them will be for the non threatening dragons causing mass deaths and time waste This is not so bad at these lvls but problems are more noticeable higher up and harder to deal with unless most are over geared and knowledgeable. I also think RQ - Adv/Expert are unfortunately great examples where many problems are exposed.

A lot of what you recently wrote I do agree with, idk (and I'm not checking all this lol) if u changed it, explained it more, I misread what you wrote or all the above but there's a w/end to be had so tc and have a good one