The point of each class having a damage role was so that support classes can do solo content, nobody can really disagree with this. However having tank classes easily beating what are supposed to be real dps classes is simply not a valid game design. The game is badly imbalanced, this causes frustration with most classes and most players, it causes players to be kicked because they simply cannot perform, it forces player to be support when they are NOT support classes, it rewards a very select few that run the "correct" meta and punishes the rest. How in any reasonable world can such a game design be tolerated?
Like I stated, GF DPS setup is to hold threat. KC - makes the target focused on you - this is you basically holding threat. SWW is designed around adding damage and we all know more damage = more threat. Again, designed around threat. The conqueror build with focus on damage is designed to hold threat as a GF Tank by doing more damage. The Tac is to buff the group and the Prot is there for GF that need extra tanking ability. Out of the three, the Conqueror provides slightly less buffing than the Tac and can do some serious damage and that is why many GF don't run Tac or don't play as a tank really because the GF DPS can do so crazy damage when built and played with a buffing group.
I have a friend who runs a 17K+ almost 18K GF. We ran CN with him on his GF and me on my DC. Up to Orcus we were neck and neck in damage as the only buffing I was providing the group was TI. We got to Orcus and I went full on buff and we cordinate our buffs and he three shotted Orcus with just the two of us in the group.
We than reran it with me playing on my cleanse AC loadout and he could not four shot orcus as he was cleaned and it elminated his big hits. Now that is the biggest issue with a GF DPS; they need DCs not to have cleanse to produce their damage. If I brought along a TR, HR, GWF, CW or SW they all could do their damage without me needing to remove cleanse - those are true DPS. GF are one trick ponies but when played right they are the highest burst DPS in the game but their burst takes so much time to build up that if they miss the buff window or miscalculate their rotation their damage takes a nose dive.
Now running with a GF, OP Devo, HR/SW/GWF/TR/CW, and 2 DC a GF can do their job as a tank and produce some serious damage. In this setup the GF is the tank and is still getting the buffs from the group but if he or she cannot do their job there is another DPS to ensure that the group completes the content just fine.
The issue with the group above is the same meta we have seen for a while now with the OP moving from tank to healer. The problem in this metais not the GF but that groups are stacking one role, just like the previous meta.
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feanor70118Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,170Arc User
Personally I'm really tired of not being able to run the latest dungeons introduced in the last few mods until the following mod comes along and all the elite toons move on.
Each new dungeon should come out with a master version for the 2dc/tank/buff/dps metaheads, and a normal version for everyone else. I haven't even used the CR key I made a month ago, on my 17k HR stormwarden main...
Exactly. My main is 17.9k depending on which mount buff I use (I usually play at 17.65k using the 250 IL 2k recovery buff since I don't own a Tenser's disk) and I've only done TONG a few times (since the devs have never bothered to fix the fact that HR damage doesn't work with the DPS curse and the others are useless to HRs, I'm pretty much dead weight at Orcus) and CODG a few more, usually dying in the push-pull since I've never had the chance to practice and, of course, the devs have never listened or responded in a meaningful way when we've pointed out the problems with the HR dodge. I've never finished a CR run due to incompetent or not entirely sane players in the random queue and the fact that my available playing time just doesn't line up with much of my guild's.
Every boss encounter since mod 6 has been worse than the one before. They're all full of boring immunity, overpowered control and instadeath and meanwhile the real problem of no fun and no class balance in pve has been unaddressed for three years.
It's really simple: this game was fun back in mod 5 and earlier, particularly when we had dungeon delves and the dungeons hadn't been stripped of their side areas. Back then any decent group had a good chance of completing the dungeon and since the loot was useful for more than just seals or salvage, the atmosphere was more casual and more likely to be fun.
Making endgame content unavailable to people who aren't willing to take the months to build up a DC or paladin or GWF, collect all the boons and spec in a certain way is a terrible idea.
My solution? Redesign every boss encounter in TONG and later. Get rid of the immunity/control/instadeath mechanics from everywhere. Restore the original dungeon layouts. Make loot meaningful. If the OCD elitists want content that's as pointlessly terrible as endgame dungeons are now, they can have them and then maybe they won't pop up to derail every productive thread by complaining that it's actually easy or needs to be harder.
And of yeah, actually do that class balancing that's never been done.
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adinosiiMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,294Arc User
Making endgame content unavailable to people who aren't willing to take the months to build up a DC or paladin or GWF, collect all the boons and spec in a certain way is a terrible idea.
While it is true that some classes/builds are more sought after than others for end-game content, the endgame content is perfectly doable by every class. I have totally lost count of how many times I have run ToNG, but while a GWF has been the primary DPS in most runs, I have done runs with a HR, TR, GF, CW and even (once) a SW as the primary DPS. Sure, builds matter, if you go in as a pure archery HR, or a fully heal-oriented DC, you will be considered useless and probably kicked, but with a decent "end-game" build you can do "end-game" content. However... "Endgame" content should be unavailable to people who aren't willing to take months to build up their character, collect boons and spec in a way that actually benefits the group. The problem is just that some classes have only a single build that is considered "viable" for end-game content - and yes, those classes could really do with a bit of rework. The DCs got a really nice rework, which resulted in them having several "viable" builds - and that's what some of the other classes really need. The developers should focus on the least-played classes and give them a bit of a boost.
Hoping for improvements...
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feanor70118Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,170Arc User
Making endgame content unavailable to people who aren't willing to take the months to build up a DC or paladin or GWF, collect all the boons and spec in a certain way is a terrible idea.
While it is true that some classes/builds are more sought after than others for end-game content, the endgame content is perfectly doable by every class. I have totally lost count of how many times I have run ToNG, but while a GWF has been the primary DPS in most runs, I have done runs with a HR, TR, GF, CW and even (once) a SW as the primary DPS. Sure, builds matter, if you go in as a pure archery HR, or a fully heal-oriented DC, you will be considered useless and probably kicked, but with a decent "end-game" build you can do "end-game" content. However... "Endgame" content should be unavailable to people who aren't willing to take months to build up their character, collect boons and spec in a way that actually benefits the group. The problem is just that some classes have only a single build that is considered "viable" for end-game content - and yes, those classes could really do with a bit of rework. The DCs got a really nice rework, which resulted in them having several "viable" builds - and that's what some of the other classes really need. The developers should focus on the least-played classes and give them a bit of a boost.
You'd have a really good point if my main weren't a 17.9k HR with a SW Combat loadout specced for PVE, that took four years to build up. As it is, you have no point.
Making endgame content unavailable to people who aren't willing to take the months to build up a DC or paladin or GWF, collect all the boons and spec in a certain way is a terrible idea.
While it is true that some classes/builds are more sought after than others for end-game content, the endgame content is perfectly doable by every class. I have totally lost count of how many times I have run ToNG, but while a GWF has been the primary DPS in most runs, I have done runs with a HR, TR, GF, CW and even (once) a SW as the primary DPS. Sure, builds matter, if you go in as a pure archery HR, or a fully heal-oriented DC, you will be considered useless and probably kicked, but with a decent "end-game" build you can do "end-game" content. However... "Endgame" content should be unavailable to people who aren't willing to take months to build up their character, collect boons and spec in a way that actually benefits the group. The problem is just that some classes have only a single build that is considered "viable" for end-game content - and yes, those classes could really do with a bit of rework. The DCs got a really nice rework, which resulted in them having several "viable" builds - and that's what some of the other classes really need. The developers should focus on the least-played classes and give them a bit of a boost.
You'd have a really good point if my main weren't a 17.9k HR with a SW Combat loadout specced for PVE, that took four years to build up. As it is, you have no point.
I don't want to sound like "that guy", but if you've got a nearly 18k SW Combat HR spec'd for PvE and aren't doing high amounts of damage, there's a pretty good chance you've done something wrong somewhere in your build, your rotation isn't optimal or your stats aren't where they need to be (100% crit, 100% defenses ignored, low recovery). I'd suggest taking a look at some video guides by Sume or KB11.
@adinosii is correct in about all classes being viable for endgame PvE, though some with a very specific build. Iron Vanguard Sentinel GWF isn't gonna be all that sought after, nor would a Faithful DC or turtle tank OP/GF. But a 17.9k SW Combat HR is generally a highly sought after dps option. Remember too that Combat HR got a massive rework not all that long ago to finally make it a viable path to play.
Making endgame content unavailable to people who aren't willing to take the months to build up a DC or paladin or GWF, collect all the boons and spec in a certain way is a terrible idea.
While it is true that some classes/builds are more sought after than others for end-game content, the endgame content is perfectly doable by every class. I have totally lost count of how many times I have run ToNG, but while a GWF has been the primary DPS in most runs, I have done runs with a HR, TR, GF, CW and even (once) a SW as the primary DPS. Sure, builds matter, if you go in as a pure archery HR, or a fully heal-oriented DC, you will be considered useless and probably kicked, but with a decent "end-game" build you can do "end-game" content. However... "Endgame" content should be unavailable to people who aren't willing to take months to build up their character, collect boons and spec in a way that actually benefits the group. The problem is just that some classes have only a single build that is considered "viable" for end-game content - and yes, those classes could really do with a bit of rework. The DCs got a really nice rework, which resulted in them having several "viable" builds - and that's what some of the other classes really need. The developers should focus on the least-played classes and give them a bit of a boost.
You'd have a really good point if my main weren't a 17.9k HR with a SW Combat loadout specced for PVE, that took four years to build up. As it is, you have no point.
I don't want to sound like "that guy", but if you've got a nearly 18k SW Combat HR spec'd for PvE and aren't doing high amounts of damage, [blah blah blah]
That's 5 of 8 classes in basically the last year or so that have gotten substantial reworks in attempts to balance.
My complaint is not that I don't do adequate damage (although it isn't nearly as easy for HRs to do high damage as it is for at GWF or TR or even some CW builds, despite all the CW complaining lately). My complaint is that classes remain badly unbalanced and the design of every boss encounter since MSP has been awful. My complaint is that endgame PVE content has been atrociously designed since at least MSP, that the requirement for more support classes that not so many players actually want to play is obnoxious and requires better design rather than players adapting.
HR did NOT get a rework at any time since the introduction of the trapper build. All it's gotten are uncalled-for nerfs, the subtraction or addition of piercing damage that we didn't want and didn't ask for, and a precious few half-hearted and half-@r$3d attempts to respond to a tiny fraction of the longstanding player concerns. When a reqork was really attempted in mod 10, it got cut off at the ankles, the dev in charge got fired, apparently for taking player concerns seriously and reporting that the project needed more time and budget than it had been allocated, and we got piercing damage (that we didn't ask for and didn't want) for a mod and a half.
Making endgame content unavailable to people who aren't willing to take the months to build up a DC or paladin or GWF, collect all the boons and spec in a certain way is a terrible idea.
While it is true that some classes/builds are more sought after than others for end-game content, the endgame content is perfectly doable by every class. I have totally lost count of how many times I have run ToNG, but while a GWF has been the primary DPS in most runs, I have done runs with a HR, TR, GF, CW and even (once) a SW as the primary DPS. Sure, builds matter, if you go in as a pure archery HR, or a fully heal-oriented DC, you will be considered useless and probably kicked, but with a decent "end-game" build you can do "end-game" content. However... "Endgame" content should be unavailable to people who aren't willing to take months to build up their character, collect boons and spec in a way that actually benefits the group. The problem is just that some classes have only a single build that is considered "viable" for end-game content - and yes, those classes could really do with a bit of rework. The DCs got a really nice rework, which resulted in them having several "viable" builds - and that's what some of the other classes really need. The developers should focus on the least-played classes and give them a bit of a boost.
You'd have a really good point if my main weren't a 17.9k HR with a SW Combat loadout specced for PVE, that took four years to build up. As it is, you have no point.
I don't want to sound like "that guy", but if you've got a nearly 18k SW Combat HR spec'd for PvE and aren't doing high amounts of damage, [blah blah blah]
That's 5 of 8 classes in basically the last year or so that have gotten substantial reworks in attempts to balance.
My complaint is not that I don't do adequate damage (although it isn't nearly as easy for HRs to do high damage as it is for at GWF or TR or even some CW builds, despite all the CW complaining lately). My complaint is that classes remain badly unbalanced and the design of every boss encounter since MSP has been awful. My complaint is that endgame PVE content has been atrociously designed since at least MSP, that the requirement for more support classes that not so many players actually want to play is obnoxious and requires better design rather than players adapting.
HR did NOT get a rework at any time since the introduction of the trapper build. All it's gotten are uncalled-for nerfs, the subtraction or addition of piercing damage that we didn't want and didn't ask for, and a precious few half-hearted and half-@r$3d attempts to respond to a tiny fraction of the longstanding player concerns. When a reqork was really attempted in mod 10, it got cut off at the ankles, the dev in charge got fired, apparently for taking player concerns seriously and reporting that the project needed more time and budget than it had been allocated, and we got piercing damage (that we didn't ask for and didn't want) for a mod and a half.
HR have been really good damage wise with the combat build since mod 10. One of the top DPS classes since mod 10. Even with the SW being bugged I have seen plenty of combat HR beat a really good SW I know on a regular basis.
As for CW vs. HR, HR are good on both single and AoE and always outperform CW from my experience. HR and CW both have flexibility in build and are able to get into groups due their buffs. The difference is HR buffs out perform the buffs of the CW. Currently the trapper needs to be fixed but once it is fixed it will be better than a CW still.
Properly building a character is 50% of the battle. The other is having the class working as intended. I would like to see another October bug fix month where the devs work on fixing bugs. This may get us even closer damage wise.
What needs to be done this time around is looking at how buff impact each class. This way if a 20% damage provide SW a 30% but only 10% for a CW, that would require adjustment to the SW and CW to get both to the 20% mark.
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adinosiiMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,294Arc User
You'd have a really good point if my main weren't a 17.9k HR with a SW Combat loadout specced for PVE, that took four years to build up. As it is, you have no point.
Well, I'm not sure what your problem is. While a GWF has probably been the primary DPS in most of my ToNG runs, HR is, well, the second most common, and quite frankly I find the difference in run times (I don't really care about the damage numbers, just how long it takes to finish) to be insignificant.
So, no, as far as I am concerned (as a DC), I don't consider HRs to have any issues in ToNG as a class....individual players, well...that's a different story.
What I find kinda funny is people saying that X class doesn't hit hard, which is only remotely true for CWs.
We all know how GFs are, TRs are the single hardest hitting class atm (I mean, SoD and AoC bomb), GWF is still the good ol' all-rounder, HRs can usually melt trash before anyone even gets to hit that trash once and do I need to show a CODG run with a HR buddy of mine who at 15.5k dominated DPS charts vs a 17k GWF who's "fairly decent"? That was a one-phase run too. As for the last one, SWs can hit pretty hard, however they're more timing dependent than any other class, and missing timing for half a sec is basically RIP SW DPS.
CWs can hit fairly hard too, but they do need a pretty significant buff to be competitive.
As for the last one, SWs can hit pretty hard, however they're more timing dependent than any other class, and missing timing for half a sec is basically RIP SW DPS.
Not really. The "pretty hard hitting" SWs are using a "special setup". I thought you knwo that.
As for the last one, SWs can hit pretty hard, however they're more timing dependent than any other class, and missing timing for half a sec is basically RIP SW DPS.
Not really. The "pretty hard hitting" SWs are using a "special setup". I thought you knwo that.
I know how HRs and SWs get their DPS.
This HR I'm referring to didn't do that.
This SW I'm referring to doesn't use that, except on Orcus onephase attempts. Even a proper templock can hit hard.
What I find kinda funny is people saying that X class doesn't hit hard, which is only remotely true for CWs.
We all know how GFs are, TRs are the single hardest hitting class atm (I mean, SoD and AoC bomb), GWF is still the good ol' all-rounder, HRs can usually melt trash before anyone even gets to hit that trash once and do I need to show a CODG run with a HR buddy of mine who at 15.5k dominated DPS charts vs a 17k GWF who's "fairly decent"? That was a one-phase run too. As for the last one, SWs can hit pretty hard, however they're more timing dependent than any other class, and missing timing for half a sec is basically RIP SW DPS.
CWs can hit fairly hard too, but they do need a pretty significant buff to be competitive.
Devs need to tweak the CW so that it can be a buffer like a Templock and DO DC as well as buff its damage to be more inline with the other DPS classes.
As for the buglock as everyone is calling it; the SW is actually closer to TR, HR, and GWF in its current state. Not sure if the devs should even fix the SW and if the SW does get fixed, than the Devs will have to not only fix the current bugs of the class but also find a way to buff the SW damage.
As for the GF, eliminate the extra damage done by FC and simply make the GF take less damage when that is activated vs. more damage. Than Griffon Wraith adjust it so that with each strike instead of increasing damage it increases the threat. Now GF one trick pony DPS is no longer viable and the GF DPS will actually have to build their character around tanking/buffing.
GF DPS are great but again very niche build that need to go away IMO.
what are you on about? i'm doing fast tongs with 14-15k people as main dps. Tong/cradle/ even cr. if people dont invite you at 17k there might be other reason then the class
what are you on about? i'm doing fast tongs with 14-15k people as main dps. Tong/cradle/ even cr. if people dont invite you at 17k there might be other reason then the class
Exactly like Leonidrex stated, other reasons.
You don't need to be 16k+ for the end game dungeons. I have done T9, CoDG and CR on a 13k pally, a 14K GF and even a 12K Templock. All you need to do is know your how to play your character to its max potential and you will be fine in all content.
If you are not getting picked up there maybe other reasons. 1) Your stats are properly setup 2) You ran with a group before and your damage was below average 3) You say you will run a specific build but than run another build such as you state Templock but actually play as a DPS, etc....
NWO end game content is easy and boring. Can be completed with players at said IL if they have their character built up right.
I know as I took a 12K group through T9 and will be taking a 13K group through CR. The minimum IL requirement is there for simplicity sake but I imagine a group that is 12K that knows the mechanic and run the right group makeup could beat CR.
what are you on about? i'm doing fast tongs with 14-15k people as main dps. Tong/cradle/ even cr. if people dont invite you at 17k there might be other reason then the class
Erm...sry, what? Who said i didnt get invites? Why did you bring that argument, when no one mentioned it? And sry if...but 17 k GS is long time ago ^^. 18k ++ is the new black
"LFM CoDG training run 14K+", this I saw in PE the other night...
Thats nice. I never make any minimum GS requirements when i look for ppl for dungeons like Tong/codg or CR. If its enough to join, just do it. In dungoens like tong or cr you can carry 2 new ppl easy thru the dungeon if the rest knows what to do and is good enough.
If you are not getting picked up there maybe other reasons.
"LFM CoDG training run 14K+", this I saw in PE the other night...
if its pc it might have been my alliance, thats when we finished it as 4man, lots of fun shoutout to random CW that was awesome and not only tanked but also solo dpsed deathbaby
Comments
I have a friend who runs a 17K+ almost 18K GF. We ran CN with him on his GF and me on my DC. Up to Orcus we were neck and neck in damage as the only buffing I was providing the group was TI. We got to Orcus and I went full on buff and we cordinate our buffs and he three shotted Orcus with just the two of us in the group.
We than reran it with me playing on my cleanse AC loadout and he could not four shot orcus as he was cleaned and it elminated his big hits. Now that is the biggest issue with a GF DPS; they need DCs not to have cleanse to produce their damage. If I brought along a TR, HR, GWF, CW or SW they all could do their damage without me needing to remove cleanse - those are true DPS. GF are one trick ponies but when played right they are the highest burst DPS in the game but their burst takes so much time to build up that if they miss the buff window or miscalculate their rotation their damage takes a nose dive.
Now running with a GF, OP Devo, HR/SW/GWF/TR/CW, and 2 DC a GF can do their job as a tank and produce some serious damage. In this setup the GF is the tank and is still getting the buffs from the group but if he or she cannot do their job there is another DPS to ensure that the group completes the content just fine.
The issue with the group above is the same meta we have seen for a while now with the OP moving from tank to healer. The problem in this metais not the GF but that groups are stacking one role, just like the previous meta.
Every boss encounter since mod 6 has been worse than the one before. They're all full of boring immunity, overpowered control and instadeath and meanwhile the real problem of no fun and no class balance in pve has been unaddressed for three years.
It's really simple: this game was fun back in mod 5 and earlier, particularly when we had dungeon delves and the dungeons hadn't been stripped of their side areas. Back then any decent group had a good chance of completing the dungeon and since the loot was useful for more than just seals or salvage, the atmosphere was more casual and more likely to be fun.
Making endgame content unavailable to people who aren't willing to take the months to build up a DC or paladin or GWF, collect all the boons and spec in a certain way is a terrible idea.
My solution? Redesign every boss encounter in TONG and later. Get rid of the immunity/control/instadeath mechanics from everywhere. Restore the original dungeon layouts. Make loot meaningful. If the OCD elitists want content that's as pointlessly terrible as endgame dungeons are now, they can have them and then maybe they won't pop up to derail every productive thread by complaining that it's actually easy or needs to be harder.
And of yeah, actually do that class balancing that's never been done.
However...
"Endgame" content should be unavailable to people who aren't willing to take months to build up their character, collect boons and spec in a way that actually benefits the group.
The problem is just that some classes have only a single build that is considered "viable" for end-game content - and yes, those classes could really do with a bit of rework. The DCs got a really nice rework, which resulted in them having several "viable" builds - and that's what some of the other classes really need. The developers should focus on the least-played classes and give them a bit of a boost.
@adinosii is correct in about all classes being viable for endgame PvE, though some with a very specific build. Iron Vanguard Sentinel GWF isn't gonna be all that sought after, nor would a Faithful DC or turtle tank OP/GF. But a 17.9k SW Combat HR is generally a highly sought after dps option. Remember too that Combat HR got a massive rework not all that long ago to finally make it a viable path to play.
Classes that have gotten a fairly recent rework:
TR mod14
SW mod12/13 (can't remember which)
CW mod13
HR mod12
DC mod12
That's 5 of 8 classes in basically the last year or so that have gotten substantial reworks in attempts to balance.
GWF: Vretzina
OP: Vee
DC: Evee
CW: nezterV
Leader - Valaraukari Ascension
HR did NOT get a rework at any time since the introduction of the trapper build. All it's gotten are uncalled-for nerfs, the subtraction or addition of piercing damage that we didn't want and didn't ask for, and a precious few half-hearted and half-@r$3d attempts to respond to a tiny fraction of the longstanding player concerns. When a reqork was really attempted in mod 10, it got cut off at the ankles, the dev in charge got fired, apparently for taking player concerns seriously and reporting that the project needed more time and budget than it had been allocated, and we got piercing damage (that we didn't ask for and didn't want) for a mod and a half.
As for CW vs. HR, HR are good on both single and AoE and always outperform CW from my experience. HR and CW both have flexibility in build and are able to get into groups due their buffs. The difference is HR buffs out perform the buffs of the CW. Currently the trapper needs to be fixed but once it is fixed it will be better than a CW still.
Properly building a character is 50% of the battle. The other is having the class working as intended. I would like to see another October bug fix month where the devs work on fixing bugs. This may get us even closer damage wise.
What needs to be done this time around is looking at how buff impact each class. This way if a 20% damage provide SW a 30% but only 10% for a CW, that would require adjustment to the SW and CW to get both to the 20% mark.
So, no, as far as I am concerned (as a DC), I don't consider HRs to have any issues in ToNG as a class....individual players, well...that's a different story.
We all know how GFs are, TRs are the single hardest hitting class atm (I mean, SoD and AoC bomb), GWF is still the good ol' all-rounder, HRs can usually melt trash before anyone even gets to hit that trash once and do I need to show a CODG run with a HR buddy of mine who at 15.5k dominated DPS charts vs a 17k GWF who's "fairly decent"? That was a one-phase run too.
As for the last one, SWs can hit pretty hard, however they're more timing dependent than any other class, and missing timing for half a sec is basically RIP SW DPS.
CWs can hit fairly hard too, but they do need a pretty significant buff to be competitive.
This HR I'm referring to didn't do that.
This SW I'm referring to doesn't use that, except on Orcus onephase attempts. Even a proper templock can hit hard.
As for the buglock as everyone is calling it; the SW is actually closer to TR, HR, and GWF in its current state. Not sure if the devs should even fix the SW and if the SW does get fixed, than the Devs will have to not only fix the current bugs of the class but also find a way to buff the SW damage.
As for the GF, eliminate the extra damage done by FC and simply make the GF take less damage when that is activated vs. more damage. Than Griffon Wraith adjust it so that with each strike instead of increasing damage it increases the threat. Now GF one trick pony DPS is no longer viable and the GF DPS will actually have to build their character around tanking/buffing.
GF DPS are great but again very niche build that need to go away IMO.
if people dont invite you at 17k there might be other reason then the class
You don't need to be 16k+ for the end game dungeons. I have done T9, CoDG and CR on a 13k pally, a 14K GF and even a 12K Templock. All you need to do is know your how to play your character to its max potential and you will be fine in all content.
If you are not getting picked up there maybe other reasons. 1) Your stats are properly setup 2) You ran with a group before and your damage was below average 3) You say you will run a specific build but than run another build such as you state Templock but actually play as a DPS, etc....
NWO end game content is easy and boring. Can be completed with players at said IL if they have their character built up right.
I know as I took a 12K group through T9 and will be taking a 13K group through CR. The minimum IL requirement is there for simplicity sake but I imagine a group that is 12K that knows the mechanic and run the right group makeup could beat CR.
And sry if...but 17 k GS is long time ago ^^. 18k ++ is the new black
shoutout to random CW that was awesome and not only tanked but also solo dpsed deathbaby