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End game content for EVERYONE

scrylite#2377 scrylite Posts: 41Member Arc User
We all know that the GWF is to arc what the paladin is to Blizzard. That being said can we consider making end game content that involves 5 man runs on open public exclude redundant classes? This whole 2 clerics and a gwf is getting annoying. I'm not asking that you nerf classes or ruin someone else's playstyle but it's gotten to the point that GWFs are behaving like the cardashians. Not only do we have to have 2 clerics but Christ forbid if one of them specced for cleanse then the entire run is ruined.
"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society" Krishnamurti
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  • mebengalsfan#9264 mebengalsfan Posts: 2,223Member Arc User
    I rarely now run with 2 DCs through T9. Instead it is usually a Templock, CW Buffer, OP Tank, AC DC and a TR or a GWF. If we do not run with a OP Tank we go with a Tac GF and sub the Templock for a Healadin.

    Fastest T9 run I have seen is with a Tac GF, Healadin, DO DC that went AC on Rasi, Templock, and a CW that ran as an Opp.

    No pure DPS in that run. We beat it in under 10 minutes without any issues.

    The problem I see with a GWF and TR is that they lack the ability to truly provide any type of buffing/debuffing to the group and that is why rarely you see any group running more than one TR or a GWF.

    What should happen is an update to the TR and GWF to provide them utility as buffers with a slight loss to their damage. But it would make the overall group better and improve run times.

    The thing is though, would the majority of TR and GWF take the lower damage for offering additional group buffing? Would these players be willing to actually see less damage.

    The problem I see is not what the devs can do but more how the players of those classes would react to such a change. I mean have talked to some former CWs that were pure DPS. Quite a few I know quit the game or went OP or DC as they simply felt cheated out of their character. Now the CW thing was a fix and many felt the damage loss and did what they felt was needed. I actually liked the changes and now get to play my CW way more than before.

    Another thought is full on game REVAMP. I have stated that this needs to happen if the devs are to truly bring about balance into the game and make it better for all players, especially the DPS heavy community that all games have.

    Now imagine if all class could play 2 roles: DPS or a support role instead of some builds being force to play 2 support roles.

    This type of update would require a full revamp and with us having loadouts it would make sense to have the ability to play 2 roles for each class and with the paragon path, not feats, it would be easier to setup such a system or should I say revamp the current system to allow all classes to actually play a support and a DPS role.

    If the devs did this, the encounter powers, at will and daily that are unique to the paragon path would be the build block around how the class is a DPS or a support class.

    GWF and TR would get additional options other than what they have now. DC would not always be regulated as healer, GF would not always be consider tanks, SW could be considered a healer, OP could be a DPS and not only a support class, etc... The thing is though, could this community handle such a long endeavor by Cryptic to make such a change; we are talking probably 1 year worth of development to make such an update to this game. Not only time to make the change but will the changes to the game actually be what the community wants?

    Whatever the devs do, they do it based on data and the direction they want the game to go. We may have some great idea or wants as players, but when it is all said and done, data and game direction is in the hands of the development company and Hasbro brothers.
  • ltsmithnekoltsmithneko Posts: 1,501Member Arc User
    edited August 4
    @mebengalsfan#9264

    I can understand ya approach, but I'd prefer there actually be some sense of role spective classes. I don't want it to be cookie cutter in the end of just Support n' deeps.

    Personally I can't see a Gwf being a buffer, nor could I see a TR being one.

    I'd prefer it to fall into categorizes such as


    Primary DPS (AoE vairant/ST variant/burst/tick/chunking)
    Hybrid DPS (Not as good as a DPs, yet hybrid of another )
    Primary Buffer-debuffer
    Hybrid Buffer-debuffer
    Primary Tank (Heavy Aggro/Survivability etc)
    Hybrid Tank
    Primary Healer (Burst n' Large single heals)
    Secondary Healer
    Primary Controller (Ya get the point)
    Secondary Controller

    For example(just making a example of what I'd like to see. : P )
    Each class gets certain ones

    GWF
    Primary DPS
    Primary Tank
    With a hybrid of DPS and Control

    Pros/Cons
    High Single Target (IV ST should be centric)
    Decent AoE ( SM gwfs are technically a AoE centric build)
    IV suffers from a lack of AoE.
    SM should lose to IV in ST.
    Tanking High Aggro/Threat, yet mostly stationary with a slow walk, while Parrying enemies attacks. Causing it to ignore a set amount of damage taken, yet marking enemies parried (something along the lines of that)
    Hybrid, stun centric doesn't excel in either AoE or DPS, but is more window of opportunity focused.


    TR
    Primary DPS
    Primary Control
    With a hybrid of DPS and Control

    Pros/Cons
    High Attack rate dmg ST so bosses health should tick down like a machine gun, not bursting down or chunking down. While other paragon cause more burst towards AoE centric Mobs.
    Control to slow/stun etc if the devs make it viable and actually serve a purpose.
    Hybrid a mixture between the two not excelling in either yet getting the job done strategically

    CW
    Primary Control
    Primary Buffer-buffer-debuffer
    With a hybrid of DPS and Buffer

    Major Control focus, to stop a group of enemies with a AoE paragon and a More Slow and enemies attack rate approach for ST paragon.
    Buffer-debuff self explanatory.
    Hybrid providing a decent dmg output while still providing some buffs-debuffs.

    SW
    Primary DPS DoT
    Primary Buffer
    With a hybrid of Healing and Buffer

    Pally
    Primary Healer
    Primary Tank
    With a Hybrid of Healer and Buffer

    GF
    Primary Tank
    Primary Buffer
    With a Hybrid of DPS and Tank

    HR
    Range
    Primary
    Primary
    Secondary
    Melee


    DC
    Primary Healer
    Primary Buffer
    Secondary buffer and Healer


    Don't take it all literal, the point I'm trying to get across is each class should have some viability to it, but not just give everyone buffs and give everyone similar dmg, make everyone a tank, make everyone a healer and call it a day, there's supposed to be differing... •,•

    (Imma sleep now been up all night)
  • greywyndgreywynd Posts: 2,705Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    Who would you suggest they make a group with? LFG has the inherent intent of making a group to run content. Not everyone has a long list of friends to pick and choose from; not all the friends asked are going to have the interest/time necessary when a person is looking to make a group for whatever content.
    Who watches the watchmen?

    With your shield or on it.
  • wintersmokewintersmoke Posts: 929Member Arc User
    kreatyve said:

    Ok ya'll. I just had to remove over half the thread because of people flaming or quoting people flaming or responding to people who are quoting people flaming. I hated to have to remove that much, but half the comments wouldn't make sense if I left them. Stop insulting your fellow players just because you disagree with them. There is absolutely no reason to be rude. If someone is being rude - don't reply! Report it, and ignore it. We will deal with it. Thanks!

    Have a :cookie: & take the rest of the night off.

  • c3rb3r3c3rb3r3 Posts: 225Member Arc User


    What should happen is an update to the TR and GWF to provide them utility as buffers with a slight loss to their damage. But it would make the overall group better and improve run times.

    The thing is though, would the majority of TR and GWF take the lower damage for offering additional group buffing? Would these players be willing to actually see less damage.

    Another thought is full on game REVAMP. I have stated that this needs to happen if the devs are to truly bring about balance into the game and make it better for all players, especially the DPS heavy community that all games have.

    almost 6 years and counting gwf is ignored and only counts as dps, and you think devs will revamp the game lmao. If they can't spend few hours of their time to change what is pointed out in the gwf issues threads then what can you expect
  • frogwalloper#6494 frogwalloper Posts: 271Member Arc User
    Maybe its the enemies that need reworking. Toss in some orthons and abishais that shrug off nonmagical attacks, and some flying beasties that only long ranged heroes can effectively cope with.
  • spidey#3367 spidey Posts: 287Member Arc User


    The thing is though, would the majority of TR and GWF take the lower damage for offering additional group buffing? Would these players be willing to actually see less damage.

    Yes. I do. The reason why i only play my main 18k GWF account atm is because my friends need a good DPS in CR/Tong. I dont know if i play this class any longer when they all got what they want from CR/Tong...atm i have much mor fun with my other alts. Espacially my OP. Great tank, awesome Banedin ^^.

    But tbh: The GWF is a pure DPS class. He cant tank, he cant controll, he cant heal and he cant buff ( not really...). So all a GWF can do is DPS.
  • kriptical1kriptical1 Posts: 284Member Arc User
    > @frogwalloper#6494 said:
    > Maybe its the enemies that need reworking. Toss in some orthons and abishais that shrug off nonmagical attacks, and some flying beasties that only long ranged heroes can effectively cope with.

    There’s something to this angle. More hp and better placement/grouping around zones and instances would help. Personally, I miss having a puller, Groups which are organized. Aggro management. Tanks which tank. Seems most of the time things revolve around the principle that we’re all a bunch of overcaffinnated dorito dusted spaz’s..
    Meh.
  • mebengalsfan#9264 mebengalsfan Posts: 2,223Member Arc User

    @mebengalsfan#9264



    I can understand ya approach, but I'd prefer there actually be some sense of role spective classes. I don't want it to be cookie cutter in the end of just Support n' deeps.



    Personally I can't see a Gwf being a buffer, nor could I see a TR being one.



    I'd prefer it to fall into categorizes such as





    Primary DPS (AoE vairant/ST variant/burst/tick/chunking)

    Hybrid DPS (Not as good as a DPs, yet hybrid of another )

    Primary Buffer-debuffer

    Hybrid Buffer-debuffer

    Primary Tank (Heavy Aggro/Survivability etc)

    Hybrid Tank

    Primary Healer (Burst n' Large single heals)

    Secondary Healer

    Primary Controller (Ya get the point)

    Secondary Controller



    For example(just making a example of what I'd like to see. : P )

    Each class gets certain ones



    GWF

    Primary DPS

    Primary Tank

    With a hybrid of DPS and Control



    Pros/Cons

    High Single Target (IV ST should be centric)

    Decent AoE ( SM gwfs are technically a AoE centric build)

    IV suffers from a lack of AoE.

    SM should lose to IV in ST.

    Tanking High Aggro/Threat, yet mostly stationary with a slow walk, while Parrying enemies attacks. Causing it to ignore a set amount of damage taken, yet marking enemies parried (something along the lines of that)

    Hybrid, stun centric doesn't excel in either AoE or DPS, but is more window of opportunity focused.





    TR

    Primary DPS

    Primary Control

    With a hybrid of DPS and Control



    Pros/Cons

    High Attack rate dmg ST so bosses health should tick down like a machine gun, not bursting down or chunking down. While other paragon cause more burst towards AoE centric Mobs.

    Control to slow/stun etc if the devs make it viable and actually serve a purpose.

    Hybrid a mixture between the two not excelling in either yet getting the job done strategically



    CW

    Primary Control

    Primary Buffer-buffer-debuffer

    With a hybrid of DPS and Buffer



    Major Control focus, to stop a group of enemies with a AoE paragon and a More Slow and enemies attack rate approach for ST paragon.

    Buffer-debuff self explanatory.

    Hybrid providing a decent dmg output while still providing some buffs-debuffs.



    SW

    Primary DPS DoT

    Primary Buffer

    With a hybrid of Healing and Buffer



    Pally

    Primary Healer

    Primary Tank

    With a Hybrid of Healer and Buffer



    GF

    Primary Tank

    Primary Buffer

    With a Hybrid of DPS and Tank



    HR

    Range

    Primary

    Primary

    Secondary

    Melee





    DC

    Primary Healer

    Primary Buffer

    Secondary buffer and Healer





    Don't take it all literal, the point I'm trying to get across is each class should have some viability to it, but not just give everyone buffs and give everyone similar dmg, make everyone a tank, make everyone a healer and call it a day, there's supposed to be differing... •,•



    (Imma sleep now been up all night)

    The only issue I see with what you listed is that control is listed. The Devs don't seem incline to make control as a type of play style within the game again and because of that I would remove all of those type of builds. I also don't think a class should have anything more than two primary type of build with the paragon path setting the character up to be a support or a DPS role when we q for content.

    My primary thoughts on this would be this...

    DC DO - DPS
    DC AC - Healer

    GF Iron Vanguard - Tank
    GF Swordmaster - DPS

    CW MoF - Buffer
    CW SS - DPS

    GWF Iron Vanguard - Tank
    GWF Swordmaster - DPS

    OP Protection - Tank
    OP Devotion - DPS

    SW Hellbringer - DPS
    SW Soulbinder - Healer

    TR Whisperknife - Buffer
    TR Master Infiltrator - DPS

    HR Pathfinder - Buffer
    HR StormWarden - DPS

    Druid (I listed Druid here based on the fact with the updates below we have 3 Buffers, 3 Tanks and only 2 Healers)
    Circle of the Land - Healer
    Circle of the Moon - DPS

    Similar to what we have now the feats will determine how we build our characters, more DPS focus or a bit more buffing focused. A DC that is DO could still take feats to buff the group. The difference is a DC DO after the update would have the personals, encounters, and dailies adjusted to help boost the personal damage of the DO, such as TI only increasing the damage for the DO and not the group or TI increase the personal damage for the DO by the full amount and the group damage is only increased by 25% of the buff.

    When I mentioned adjusting classes to play two roles, it is not just to play the two roles but to allow us as players to be able to q into content as a support role or a DPS role based on the way we build our character. This of course would require the devs to create a new role, buffer so new setup for 5 man content would be 1 tank, 1 healer, 1 buffer and 2 DPS.

    Buffer role will be able to provide the highest type of in game buffs and debuffs from personals, dailies, encounters and at wills. This type make qing easier and bring about some balance and adjust the meta from OP, GF, 2 DCs and 1 DPS to being tank, healer, buffer and 2 DPS.

    If the devs do a revamp they need to ensure that all class role combinations are within 5% variance of each other. This would ensure that all buffers, healers, tank and DPS can do the job and do it equally well. The new meta group would only complete content roughly 5% faster than any other group. Making all classes viable and worth playing.

    The above is my solution to NW ongoing issues of player being left out of groups and this also provides all classes at minimum two builds if not more.
  • wintersmokewintersmoke Posts: 929Member Arc User

    > @frogwalloper#6494 said:

    > Maybe its the enemies that need reworking. Toss in some orthons and abishais that shrug off nonmagical attacks, and some flying beasties that only long ranged heroes can effectively cope with.



    There’s something to this angle. More hp and better placement/grouping around zones and instances would help. Personally, I miss having a puller, Groups which are organized. Aggro management. Tanks which tank. Seems most of the time things revolve around the principle that we’re all a bunch of overcaffinnated dorito dusted spaz’s..

    Meh.

    I think we are moving in this direction... Flying Witch in Barovia!
  • ragequittingdc#8599 ragequittingdc Posts: 206Member Arc User
    I'm for certain on board with broader enemy types to make grouping pug or premade better for any class or build. for tr or gwf changes, I would see tr being a debuffer/controller in a support build while gwf takes a debuffer/controller or buffer/controller support type.
    im actually the gwf carry
  • thefabricantthefabricant Posts: 4,360Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    edited August 9
    CR can be beat with 1 op, 1 gf, 3 non gwf/tr classes in 22-25 minutes by a co-ordinated team if they are trying to. Same team will manage 30-35 minutes without much effort if they are just running casually, both runs without using scrolls. In fact, I would rather run with that team composition then with 2 dc, 1 prot op, 2 dps, since devo OP+gf is a better party composition for CR.
  • greywyndgreywynd Posts: 2,705Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User

    I'm for certain on board with broader enemy types to make grouping pug or premade better for any class or build. for tr or gwf changes, I would see tr being a debuffer/controller in a support build while gwf takes a debuffer/controller or buffer/controller support type.

    I'd be happy with the devs realizing they have more options than knocks and prones. Been an overabundance of them since SKT dropped. It was bad in RD at the beginning. Gorillas and werewolves just got worse.
    Who watches the watchmen?

    With your shield or on it.
  • spidey#3367 spidey Posts: 287Member Arc User
    True
  • spidey#3367 spidey Posts: 287Member Arc User

    since devo OP+gf is a better party composition for CR.

    Banedin power ftw ^^
  • schietindebuxschietindebux Posts: 3,743Member Arc User
    edited August 10
    greywynd said:

    I'm for certain on board with broader enemy types to make grouping pug or premade better for any class or build. for tr or gwf changes, I would see tr being a debuffer/controller in a support build while gwf takes a debuffer/controller or buffer/controller support type.

    I'd be happy with the devs realizing they have more options than knocks and prones.
    Yeah , what about a frog splash ? :)


  • greywyndgreywynd Posts: 2,705Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    Isn't that what the werewolves do when they back up, charge, leap, and land near where they started from and knock you prone, even if you're nowhere near their impact point?
    Who watches the watchmen?

    With your shield or on it.
  • schietindebuxschietindebux Posts: 3,743Member Arc User
    edited August 10
    greywynd said:

    Isn't that what the werewolves do when they back up, charge, leap, and land near where they started from and knock you prone, even if you're nowhere near their impact point?

    Right, they allready implemented frog splash...what about Corkscrew senton?

  • fightdawalrus#5058 fightdawalrus Posts: 114Member Arc User
    > @mebengalsfan#9264 said:
    > I rarely now run with 2 DCs through T9. Instead it is usually a Templock, CW Buffer, OP Tank, AC DC and a TR or a GWF. If we do not run with a OP Tank we go with a Tac GF and sub the Templock for a Healadin.
    >
    > Fastest T9 run I have seen is with a Tac GF, Healadin, DO DC that went AC on Rasi, Templock, and a CW that ran as an Opp.
    >
    > No pure DPS in that run. We beat it in under 10 minutes without any issues.
    >
    > The problem I see with a GWF and TR is that they lack the ability to truly provide any type of buffing/debuffing to the group and that is why rarely you see any group running more than one TR or a GWF.
    >
    > What should happen is an update to the TR and GWF to provide them utility as buffers with a slight loss to their damage. But it would make the overall group better and improve run times.
    >
    > The thing is though, would the majority of TR and GWF take the lower damage for offering additional group buffing? Would these players be willing to actually see less damage.
    >
    > The problem I see is not what the devs can do but more how the players of those classes would react to such a change. I mean have talked to some former CWs that were pure DPS. Quite a few I know quit the game or went OP or DC as they simply felt cheated out of their character. Now the CW thing was a fix and many felt the damage loss and did what they felt was needed. I actually liked the changes and now get to play my CW way more than before.
    >
    > Another thought is full on game REVAMP. I have stated that this needs to happen if the devs are to truly bring about balance into the game and make it better for all players, especially the DPS heavy community that all games have.
    >
    > Now imagine if all class could play 2 roles: DPS or a support role instead of some builds being force to play 2 support roles.
    >
    > This type of update would require a full revamp and with us having loadouts it would make sense to have the ability to play 2 roles for each class and with the paragon path, not feats, it would be easier to setup such a system or should I say revamp the current system to allow all classes to actually play a support and a DPS role.
    >
    > If the devs did this, the encounter powers, at will and daily that are unique to the paragon path would be the build block around how the class is a DPS or a support class.
    >
    > GWF and TR would get additional options other than what they have now. DC would not always be regulated as healer, GF would not always be consider tanks, SW could be considered a healer, OP could be a DPS and not only a support class, etc... The thing is though, could this community handle such a long endeavor by Cryptic to make such a change; we are talking probably 1 year worth of development to make such an update to this game. Not only time to make the change but will the changes to the game actually be what the community wants?
    >
    > Whatever the devs do, they do it based on data and the direction they want the game to go. We may have some great idea or wants as players, but when it is all said and done, data and game direction is in the hands of the development company and Hasbro brothers.

    Do you have proof of that 9 minute T9G run? I'd imagine you would record something like that considering the fastest T9G run was around 9 or 10 minutes.
  • elvabestwaifu#2655 elvabestwaifu Posts: 1Member Arc User

    @mebengalsfan#9264



    I can understand ya approach, but I'd prefer there actually be some sense of role spective classes. I don't want it to be cookie cutter in the end of just Support n' deeps.



    Personally I can't see a Gwf being a buffer, nor could I see a TR being one.



    I'd prefer it to fall into categorizes such as





    Primary DPS (AoE vairant/ST variant/burst/tick/chunking)

    Hybrid DPS (Not as good as a DPs, yet hybrid of another )

    Primary Buffer-debuffer

    Hybrid Buffer-debuffer

    Primary Tank (Heavy Aggro/Survivability etc)

    Hybrid Tank

    Primary Healer (Burst n' Large single heals)

    Secondary Healer

    Primary Controller (Ya get the point)

    Secondary Controller



    For example(just making a example of what I'd like to see. : P )

    Each class gets certain ones



    GWF

    Primary DPS

    Primary Tank

    With a hybrid of DPS and Control



    Pros/Cons

    High Single Target (IV ST should be centric)

    Decent AoE ( SM gwfs are technically a AoE centric build)

    IV suffers from a lack of AoE.

    SM should lose to IV in ST.

    Tanking High Aggro/Threat, yet mostly stationary with a slow walk, while Parrying enemies attacks. Causing it to ignore a set amount of damage taken, yet marking enemies parried (something along the lines of that)

    Hybrid, stun centric doesn't excel in either AoE or DPS, but is more window of opportunity focused.





    TR

    Primary DPS

    Primary Control

    With a hybrid of DPS and Control



    Pros/Cons

    High Attack rate dmg ST so bosses health should tick down like a machine gun, not bursting down or chunking down. While other paragon cause more burst towards AoE centric Mobs.

    Control to slow/stun etc if the devs make it viable and actually serve a purpose.

    Hybrid a mixture between the two not excelling in either yet getting the job done strategically



    CW

    Primary Control

    Primary Buffer-buffer-debuffer

    With a hybrid of DPS and Buffer



    Major Control focus, to stop a group of enemies with a AoE paragon and a More Slow and enemies attack rate approach for ST paragon.

    Buffer-debuff self explanatory.

    Hybrid providing a decent dmg output while still providing some buffs-debuffs.



    SW

    Primary DPS DoT

    Primary Buffer

    With a hybrid of Healing and Buffer



    Pally

    Primary Healer

    Primary Tank

    With a Hybrid of Healer and Buffer



    GF

    Primary Tank

    Primary Buffer

    With a Hybrid of DPS and Tank



    HR

    Range

    Primary

    Primary

    Secondary

    Melee





    DC

    Primary Healer

    Primary Buffer

    Secondary buffer and Healer





    Don't take it all literal, the point I'm trying to get across is each class should have some viability to it, but not just give everyone buffs and give everyone similar dmg, make everyone a tank, make everyone a healer and call it a day, there's supposed to be differing... •,•



    (Imma sleep now been up all night)

    I like the way you think fam. But don't forget that what you said here has prolly 0 value in the eyes of the unworthy. Not going into details since don't want to see my comment removed for hate somehow. I would just like to thank you for this piece of information. I like the spread of classes/sub-classes you did here the most. Have a good one.
  • thefiresidecatthefiresidecat Posts: 2,547Member Arc User

    We all know that the GWF is to arc what the paladin is to Blizzard. That being said can we consider making end game content that involves 5 man runs on open public exclude redundant classes? This whole 2 clerics and a gwf is getting annoying. I'm not asking that you nerf classes or ruin someone else's playstyle but it's gotten to the point that GWFs are behaving like the cardashians. Not only do we have to have 2 clerics but Christ forbid if one of them specced for cleanse then the entire run is ruined.

    you mean dps gfs? I personally think they need to make the survivors wraps obsolete. that would solve a lot of problems in the game.
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  • mebengalsfan#9264 mebengalsfan Posts: 2,223Member Arc User
    edited August 15

    We all know that the GWF is to arc what the paladin is to Blizzard. That being said can we consider making end game content that involves 5 man runs on open public exclude redundant classes? This whole 2 clerics and a gwf is getting annoying. I'm not asking that you nerf classes or ruin someone else's playstyle but it's gotten to the point that GWFs are behaving like the cardashians. Not only do we have to have 2 clerics but Christ forbid if one of them specced for cleanse then the entire run is ruined.

    you mean dps gfs? I personally think they need to make the survivors wraps obsolete. that would solve a lot of problems in the game.
    I don't have a problem with players trying to play their character as they wish, but when a player is demanding me to play my character outside of how I wish because they cannot produce DPS like damage with me having cleanse well than, I don't consider said build a true DPS. Yes, GF DPS are really good but they need the survivor wraps to produce said damage and they cannot be cleansed. When cleansed they become slightly better than an undergeared or improperly built DPS character.


    Now as a long time player of various MMO games I know that tanks have a few various ways to hold threat. One is an ability that causes the tank to get on the top of the threat chart, other ways include abilities that causes other player damage to increase the tank threat, controlling them or healing oneself can also cause threat, and a very common way for a tank to hold threat when an ability is on cool down is by doing damage. Now the GF class is designed around marking for threat but you also need to produce enough damage to hold the threat when running with good DPS. This is where the GF DPS build comes into play or if you have a very good group and don't need a true tank or a buff tank you can run as a DPS tank for extra chip damage. That is how the GF is designed. Not the way many play the GF, which is they think they are a true DPS.

    If a GF was a true DPS it would not need the survivors wrap and cleanse would have not impact their output in damage. To me a GF is a tank and should be played as such. Yeah it is fun adding chip damage but the extra AP, bonus damage from ITF, and bonus damage from crushing pin should be our focus as GF to help the group get through content.

    Now if the devs did do what I asked about expanding out the game and giving each class two roles; than yes GF deserve to have a damage role and it should be updated so they are more effective at producing damage without the need to rely on Survivor wraps.
  • clericalistclericalist Posts: 548Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    The point of each class having a damage role was so that support classes can do solo content, nobody can really disagree with this. However having tank classes easily beating what are supposed to be real dps classes is simply not a valid game design. The game is badly imbalanced, this causes frustration with most classes and most players, it causes players to be kicked because they simply cannot perform, it forces player to be support when they are NOT support classes, it rewards a very select few that run the "correct" meta and punishes the rest. How in any reasonable world can such a game design be tolerated?
  • jonkocajonkoca Posts: 2,074Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    Personally I'm really tired of not being able to run the latest dungeons introduced in the last few mods until the following mod comes along and all the elite toons move on.

    Each new dungeon should come out with a master version for the 2dc/tank/buff/dps metaheads, and a normal version for everyone else. I haven't even used the CR key I made a month ago, on my 17k HR stormwarden main...
    Jon koca 17k+ HR combat stormwarden / pvp archer (PC)
  • mebengalsfan#9264 mebengalsfan Posts: 2,223Member Arc User


    The thing is though, would the majority of TR and GWF take the lower damage for offering additional group buffing? Would these players be willing to actually see less damage.

    Yes. I do. The reason why i only play my main 18k GWF account atm is because my friends need a good DPS in CR/Tong. I dont know if i play this class any longer when they all got what they want from CR/Tong...atm i have much mor fun with my other alts. Espacially my OP. Great tank, awesome Banedin ^^.

    But tbh: The GWF is a pure DPS class. He cant tank, he cant controll, he cant heal and he cant buff ( not really...). So all a GWF can do is DPS.
    The issue with this game lack of flexibility for classes is on the devs. I mean a GF is a one trick pony DPS and that is due to it being setup to do great damage to hold threat but players have found a way to be GF DPS even though their damage is a joke outside of a small window where they melt stuff. I play a GF in all content and I play as a Conqueror to hold threat better due to some higher damaging DPS I run with. I am not there to do the one trick pony HAMSTER; I do use some of the personals, encounters, etc...but it is to keep the boss and adds on me, not for my personal damage.

    TR and GWF are also one trick ponies in this game; they are regulated as DPS and have no other real viable option. The GWF should be able to tank and the TR should be able to provide some type of debuff and buff for the group, similar to a CW.

    DC are like GF in that a well built DC can do damage but again, the focus for a DC is on buffing due to how buffing works in this game making the damaging DC a think only when you have many, more than 2, DCs in your group.

    I stated this more than once, NWO needs a revamp from the ground up to balance out how buffs and debuff work, provide all classes two roles, update all companions (those that have stats given them more or add a active in addition to the stat), update gear, update how stats work, etc... This game has so many holes in a minor update results in some really stupid bug that makes one class to strong or another unwanted in groups.

    I like NW but I see that this game needs a real update not content but to its mechanics.
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