not sure why the store would not be relevant to this point yeah more people would want zen to buy things but you'd get a lot more people just buying zen to buy things too and with that exchange some of it for ad. it's another part of the same coin. if more people did buy zen with their ad to buy things in teh zen store that's effectively also an ad sink is it not?
It is only relevant in the sense that "The more desirable the items in the Zen store are, the worse the Zax trade imbalance gets."
The goal is to make AD more valuable. There are four ways to make AD more valuable.
1) Reduce the amount of AD entering the system. 2) Increase the uses for AD. 3) Increase the amount of Zen entering the system TO BUY AD (if it isn't used to buy AD it doesn't help) 4) Reduce the uses for Zen
If you make the Zen store better then the amount of people trying to obtain Zen with AD will go up thus devaluing AD even more. that is the opposite of the goal. See how 4) is REDUCE the uses of Zen...not increase.
Forget the Zen Store. You are looking at it backwards. Focus on feedback regarding points 1 and 2. What can the devs do to reduce the supply of AD or increase the demand of AD with minimal or beneficial impacts to the players?
I think this view is looking at this with a myopic lense. I never said do this and this only. I think it's the other half of the coin. sure ad should be lessened. but also relevant things to buy with zen should be GREATLY increased. same with ad. right now nearly everything available is priced from 4 years ago and not useful to anyone in game and out. a few things have been updated but not enough.
buying zen should ALSO be an ad sink. but the zen should actually be spent. (I don't have the numbers but I'd love to see them) I'd bet far more zen is NOT being spent but just being hoarded. and then spit back out into ad when the user wants ad for something.
the real problem is there isn't enough to spend ad on. be it zen or ad. because at the end of the day they are hte same. two currencies that equal the same thing. if more is in the zen store that is relevant and attractive the very fact that the zax is backed up is going to cause more people to spend real money. if they balance that with more to buy with ad in game then you're going to get a much healthier exchange.
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plasticbatMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 12,400Arc User
not sure why the store would not be relevant to this point yeah more people would want zen to buy things but you'd get a lot more people just buying zen to buy things too and with that exchange some of it for ad. it's another part of the same coin. if more people did buy zen with their ad to buy things in teh zen store that's effectively also an ad sink is it not?
It is only relevant in the sense that "The more desirable the items in the Zen store are, the worse the Zax trade imbalance gets."
The goal is to make AD more valuable. There are four ways to make AD more valuable.
1) Reduce the amount of AD entering the system. 2) Increase the uses for AD. 3) Increase the amount of Zen entering the system TO BUY AD (if it isn't used to buy AD it doesn't help) 4) Reduce the uses for Zen
If you make the Zen store better then the amount of people trying to obtain Zen with AD will go up thus devaluing AD even more. that is the opposite of the goal. See how 4) is REDUCE the uses of Zen...not increase.
Forget the Zen Store. You are looking at it backwards. Focus on feedback regarding points 1 and 2. What can the devs do to reduce the supply of AD or increase the demand of AD with minimal or beneficial impacts to the players?
I think this view is looking at this with a myopic lense. I never said do this and this only. I think it's the other half of the coin. sure ad should be lessened. but also relevant things to buy with zen should be GREATLY increased. same with ad. right now nearly everything available is priced from 4 years ago and not useful to anyone in game and out. a few things have been updated but not enough.
buying zen should ALSO be an ad sink. but the zen should actually be spent. (I don't have the numbers but I'd love to see them) I'd bet far more zen is NOT being spent but just being hoarded. and then spit back out into ad when the user wants ad for something.
the real problem is there isn't enough to spend ad on. be it zen or ad. because at the end of the day they are hte same. two currencies that equal the same thing. if more is in the zen store that is relevant and attractive the very fact that the zax is backed up is going to cause more people to spend real money. if they balance that with more to buy with ad in game then you're going to get a much healthier exchange.
Zen and AD are two different currency. Using one to buy another is not a sink for either currency.
Player A has 500 AD. Player B has 1 Zen. Total: 1 Zen and 500 AD. Player A want to buy Zen and Player B want to buy AD. After the transaction, player A has 1 Zen and player B has 500 AD. Total: 1 Zen and 500 AD.
There is no sink of anything.
*** The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will. ***
I'm curious, all those players saying they were able to make massive amounts of AD's per day previously - just what are those players doing with their accumulated wealth?
I see quite a few regulars who appear to be purchasing items from the Auction House and relisting those items at an inflated price - that's one thing I see as a benefit for those making massive amounts of AD's daily... and one of the best reasons for nurfing the daily AD amount as far as I'm concerned.
I also see quite a few players repeatedly running dungeon and skirmish content for the sole purpose of accumulating more Astral Diamonds with the apparent mindset that the quicker they make that run the sooner they can run their other characters to make even more AD's... as a result those who do run dungeons just for AD's tend to resent and sometimes wish to exclude or punish players who's primary purpose is not solely to accumulate more AD's during these runs.
Every player from the newest players to the most experienced players needs a certain amount of AD's to purchase better gear, enchantments, runestones, companions, mounts and artifacts so they can play Neverwinter more effectively but beyond that, it is my opinion that players accumulating massive amounts of AD's only serves the purpose of HAMSTER up the Neverwinter economy and artificially inflating the prices of some items available for purchase from the Auction House.
My personal thought - I'm giving the change to some players being able to accumulating massive quantities of AD's two very big thumbs up.
Purchase refinement to improve my character, donate AD to my guild/alliance, save up to buy other items I need or want. Please don't lump everyone into a single group. I work for what I want.
The Zen store does need improvements, however in regards to this topic that doesn't actually help. The more desirable the items in the Zen store are, the worse the Zax trade imbalance gets. Currently on PC there are far more players wanting Zen then are wanting AD, which causes the high backlog. The better the Zen store gets, the more players want Zen, the worse the backlog gets. Improving the Zen store does not improve the value of AD or help the backlog.
There is a lot of focus on my comments on the ZAX, however I mentioned that as the easiest indicator of the value of AD. The overall goal is to improve the value of AD, improving the ZAX is also important and happens as the value of AD increases, but overall the focus is reducing inflation and increasing the value of AD as a whole.
More AD is created than is destroyed, everyone agrees on that point. On the surface it would seem natural to simply create more sinks to remove more AD, and we have started doing that and have more planned for future modules as well. However, the rate of incoming AD would require massive sinks all over the game for all players to have any chance of bringing the AD incoming/outgoing rates into balance.
Over the last 2 years on PC, the net amount of refined AD in the game (all characters of all players) has increased 75%. The overall AD in the game has been increasing at a good pace since the game launched, and this is true of all platforms. Some transmute and other sinks added aren't going to be able to curb that alone. I won't go into too much detail on the numbers, but on average players as a whole, just on PC, are generating 1 billion brand new refined AD every 3 days. Each console on average is 4 days to generate 1 billion AD. That number already factors in all of the AD spent during that time as well. This is why there needs to be better generation limits in conjunction with AD sinks.
Just so I'm 100% clear on what you're saying here: #1: The amount of AD, on all characters combined, is 175% of what it was in May 2016 #2: Every 3 days, the total amount of AD on all characters combined rises by about 1 billion. Not just "1 billion is refined" but "1 billion more is created than is destroyed".
So, 1 billion every 3 days, total went up 175% in 730 days, assuming that that 1 billion number is roughly correct across the last two years, that means that the 243.3 billion created since May 2016 is 75% of the May 2016 amount, meaning the total AD in the system is roughly ..... 568 billion? Given some fudging on the numbers, maybe swing that anywhere between 550 and 600 billion? Am I in the right ballpark?
(That's actually really cool)
I know you said a "low single digit" percentage of accounts refine more than 100k/day, does that number change significantly if you look at 700k/wk or 3m/mo - seeing how many accounts might rarely pass 100k in a day but when they do pass it, they pass it *by a lot*, bringing their average per-day past 100K even if they only actually pass 100K one day in four or something?
I'd also be really interested in seeing the percentages of accounts that refine 1.5m/mo (50K/day average) or 4.5m/mo (150k/day average)
haveing a hard time finding this ad change thread so any point out of it would be nice, but from the few things i saw in this thread something about limiting the amount of refine to 100k per account if i read right. this in my opinionnot only drives up the value of the obtainable ad a person can refine on a day but im seeing that the prices on the ah will also skyrocket due to people not being able to multi-char rad obtain an refine then shuffle over to their main character thru the zax. (after the 100k limit is reached of course).ive always felt that the mesly 36k rad refine a day was real low considering ah prices for stuff so the 100k limit would be a nice increase (and for me only havin 2 characters not worried abt the limit(and yes i have been playing since month 1 on ps4)) in hindsight anyone that uses the ah to make ad after the 100k limit is reached would only up the price of anything they're selling on the ah to compensate for the multi-char ad/zax shuffle lose due to the new impletmented limit if my understanding of this thread is correct. but just like the old "new" changes they have done in the past everyonne throws their little hissy fits and evryone adjusts to the "new thing" and then evryone finds ways around it and moves on so this new system i havent seen the thread of yet.... the reults.... well that remains o be seen lol.
haveing a hard time finding this ad change thread so any point out of it would be nice, but from the few things i saw in this thread something about limiting the amount of refine to 100k per account if i read right. this in my opinionnot only drives up the value of the obtainable ad a person can refine on a day but im seeing that the prices on the ah will also skyrocket due to people not being able to multi-char rad obtain an refine then shuffle over to their main character thru the zax. (after the 100k limit is reached of course).ive always felt that the mesly 36k rad refine a day was real low considering ah prices for stuff so the 100k limit would be a nice increase (and for me only havin 2 characters not worried abt the limit(and yes i have been playing since month 1 on ps4)) in hindsight anyone that uses the ah to make ad after the 100k limit is reached would only up the price of anything they're selling on the ah to compensate for the multi-char ad/zax shuffle lose due to the new impletmented limit if my understanding of this thread is correct. but just like the old "new" changes they have done in the past everyonne throws their little hissy fits and evryone adjusts to the "new thing" and then evryone finds ways around it and moves on so this new system i havent seen the thread of yet.... the reults.... well that remains o be seen lol.
Two main points:
1. There will be an account wide 100K rAD refinement limit. Let me point it out loud. It is per account, not per character. 2. You will earn a lot less rAD from RQ per account. You may have hard time to reach the 100K rAD refinement limit. Probably, not even 70K per account. IMO, #1 is not something people should worry about first.
*** The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will. ***
How would this go? (Not great at math or foreseeing economy changes).
My logic says that removing preservation and coal wards from the zen shop but adding it to the wonderous bazaar, would create a big ad sink. It is the primary thing people buy with zen I would think.
lol @plasticbat.... yes i saw it said per account not per character.... lol i was reffering to the alt army people that use their alts to get ad then refine it and use the zax to shuffle it over to their main character. this "new thing" would impact those people the most. once the limt was reached they would in turn resort to selling on the ah to make up for what they could not get thru their "old way", hece drivin up ah prices i think.
> @undeparted said: > @noworries#8859 > > How would this go? (Not great at math or foreseeing economy changes). > > My logic says that removing preservation and coal wards from the zen shop but adding it to the wonderous bazaar, would create a big ad sink. It is the primary thing people buy with zen I would think. > > Or am I missing something?
There must be numbers from marks that would give you guys an idea, no?
I'm wondering how much deflation this move will cause in the overall economy. Any serious deflation won't be good for moving things on the Auction House; people will be sitting on their AD, waiting for things to get cheaper.
They'll have to get cheaper if people are going to want to move them. With the deflation of AD, less will buy more. Sellers aren't going to be able to maintain the current prices for long - and they shouldn't expect to.
How would this go? (Not great at math or foreseeing economy changes).
My logic says that removing preservation and coal wards from the zen shop but adding it to the wonderous bazaar, would create a big ad sink. It is the primary thing people buy with zen I would think.
Or am I missing something?
The Wondrous Bazaar essentially caps the prices on things like wards that can also be purchased in the Auction House. Whatever price it affixes to an item, savvy players will sell/buy it for less in the Auction House. The only people who'll sink their AD at top price in the Bazaar are new players who just don't know any better.
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plasticbatMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 12,400Arc User
lol @plasticbat.... yes i saw it said per account not per character.... lol i was reffering to the alt army people that use their alts to get ad then refine it and use the zax to shuffle it over to their main character. this "new thing" would impact those people the most. once the limt was reached they would in turn resort to selling on the ah to make up for what they could not get thru their "old way", hece drivin up ah prices i think.
They won't need to use the zax any more. They will be able to do 'direct' deposit. Reaching the cap will not be as easy.
*** The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will. ***
People keep saying that trading AD for Zen is not a sink, but many times it is. Yes, players will hold onto their Zen for awhile for a few reasons, but eventually, all or a portion of it gets spent in the Zen store.
> @frogwalloper#6494 said: > I'm wondering how much deflation this move will cause in the overall economy. Any serious deflation won't be good for moving things on the Auction House; people will be sitting on their AD, waiting for things to get cheaper. > > They'll have to get cheaper if people are going to want to move them. With the deflation of AD, less will buy more. Sellers aren't going to be able to maintain the current prices for long - and they shouldn't expect to. @noworries#8859 > > How would this go? (Not great at math or foreseeing economy changes). > > My logic says that removing preservation and coal wards from the zen shop but adding it to the wonderous bazaar, would create a big ad sink. It is the primary thing people buy with zen I would think. > > Or am I missing something? > > The Wondrous Bazaar essentially caps the prices on things like wards that can also be purchased in the Auction House. Whatever price it affixes to an item, savvy players will sell/buy it for less in the Auction House. The only people who'll sink their AD at top price in the Bazaar are new players who just don't know any better.
I can’t speak for all platforms. But on Xbox the price of gmops and smops, outside a bazaar sale, is more or less the same. One day 3k cheaper and the next 5k more expensive. So depending on the price on the trade house, on some days it would work as a sink.
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plasticbatMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 12,400Arc User
I'm wondering how much deflation this move will cause in the overall economy. Any serious deflation won't be good for moving things on the Auction House; people will be sitting on their AD, waiting for things to get cheaper.
They'll have to get cheaper if people are going to want to move them. With the deflation of AD, less will buy more. Sellers aren't going to be able to maintain the current prices for long - and they shouldn't expect to.
How would this go? (Not great at math or foreseeing economy changes).
My logic says that removing preservation and coal wards from the zen shop but adding it to the wonderous bazaar, would create a big ad sink. It is the primary thing people buy with zen I would think.
Or am I missing something?
The Wondrous Bazaar essentially caps the prices on things like wards that can also be purchased in the Auction House. Whatever price it affixes to an item, savvy players will sell/buy it for less in the Auction House. The only people who'll sink their AD at top price in the Bazaar are new players who just don't know any better.
If wards goes to Wondrous Bazaar, VIP will buy ward from Wondrous Bazaar and then sell it to AH to earn the difference. Yes, it is an effective AD sink. Where else can you get unbound ward and then sell that to AH as "discount"? It has to be from somewhere. If it can only be bought from Wondrous Bazaar, every purchase from Wondrous Bazaar is an AD sink.
*** The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will. ***
How would this go? (Not great at math or foreseeing economy changes).
My logic says that removing preservation and coal wards from the zen shop but adding it to the wonderous bazaar, would create a big ad sink. It is the primary thing people buy with zen I would think.
Or am I missing something?
Yeah. This would directly reduce the amount of wards being bought for real money through Zen, and while it's a great AD sink, it's even better as company revenue sink. Because remember, when you purchase Zen items, even as a F2P, someone paid up that cost to Cryptic.
lol @plasticbat.... yes i saw it said per account not per character.... lol i was reffering to the alt army people that use their alts to get ad then refine it and use the zax to shuffle it over to their main character. this "new thing" would impact those people the most. once the limt was reached they would in turn resort to selling on the ah to make up for what they could not get thru their "old way", hece drivin up ah prices i think.
They won't need to use the zax any more. They will be able to do 'direct' deposit. Reaching the cap will not be as easy.
aslso saw that point lol but a person with say 20 or so alts would have no problem reaching the cap lol
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plasticbatMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 12,400Arc User
lol @plasticbat.... yes i saw it said per account not per character.... lol i was reffering to the alt army people that use their alts to get ad then refine it and use the zax to shuffle it over to their main character. this "new thing" would impact those people the most. once the limt was reached they would in turn resort to selling on the ah to make up for what they could not get thru their "old way", hece drivin up ah prices i think.
They won't need to use the zax any more. They will be able to do 'direct' deposit. Reaching the cap will not be as easy.
aslso saw that point lol but a person with say 20 or so alts would have no problem reaching the cap lol
No. RQ rAD earning is limited account wide too. There is no point to run alt for RQ.
*** The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will. ***
If wards goes back to Wondrous Bazaar, VIP will buy ward from Wondrous Bazaar and then sell it to AH to earn the difference. Yes, it is an effective AD sink. Where else can you get unbound ward and then sell that to AH? It has to be from somewhere. If it can only be bought from Wondrous Bazaar, every purchase from Wondrous Bazaar is an AD sink.
Currently I get all mine from the Vault of Piety. Okay, so maybe you two are right, and I'm not trying to argue - just thinking it out. I imagine the bulk of players you'd catch in that kind of hustle are new or some kid burning through gift cards, and I don't know that many new players are hankering after wards. I'd think most players who need them have been in game long enough to have a bunch of their own zen on hand. If wards do wind up in the Bazaar, why would anyone buy them from a VIP when they could just as easily spend their zen on 12 months of VIP and get those wards for 25% less, too?
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plasticbatMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 12,400Arc User
If wards goes back to Wondrous Bazaar, VIP will buy ward from Wondrous Bazaar and then sell it to AH to earn the difference. Yes, it is an effective AD sink. Where else can you get unbound ward and then sell that to AH? It has to be from somewhere. If it can only be bought from Wondrous Bazaar, every purchase from Wondrous Bazaar is an AD sink.
Currently I get all mine from the Vault of Piety. Okay, so maybe you two are right, and I'm not trying to argue - just thinking it out. I imagine the bulk of players you'd catch in that kind of hustle are new or some kid burning through gift cards, and I don't know that many new players are hankering after wards. I'd think most players who need them have been in game long enough to have a bunch of their own zen on hand. If wards do wind up in the Bazaar, why would anyone buy them from a VIP when they could just as easily spend their zen on 12 months of VIP and get those wards for 25% less, too?
Those from Vault are account bound. You cannot sell them to AH.
Why would some people buy from AH from VIP players instead of being VIP themselves? 1. They don't have zen but they have AD. 2. they don't know better.
There are people doing that right now but the items are GMOP and SMOP.
*** The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will. ***
Correct me if I am wrong, but this seems to be a rough AD refine limit, not an AD earning limit. You can still earn more than 100k rough AD per day. But only refine up to 100k rough AD per day. On some days, I refine more than 100k AD, and on other days, I barely have time to play, If I earn too much rough AD one day, then I will refine it on another day, when I have no time to play.
not sure why the store would not be relevant to this point yeah more people would want zen to buy things but you'd get a lot more people just buying zen to buy things too and with that exchange some of it for ad.
It is only relevant in the sense that "The more desirable the items in the Zen store are, the worse the Zax trade imbalance gets."
The goal is to make AD more valuable. There are four ways to make AD more valuable.
1) Reduce the amount of AD entering the system. 2) Increase the uses for AD. 3) Increase the amount of Zen entering the system TO BUY AD (if it isn't used to buy AD it doesn't help) 4) Reduce the uses for Zen
If you make the Zen store better then the amount of people trying to obtain Zen with AD will go up thus devaluing AD which is the opposite of the goal. See how number 4 is REDUCE the uses of Zen...not increase. They are two sides of the same coin but they are inversely related. They are listed in supply, demand, supply, demand order to point out the inverse relationship.
If you increase the demand of zen then you will decrease the value of AD. If you increase the value of AD then you will decrease the value of Zen.
Forget the Zen Store. You are looking at it backwards. Focus on feedback regarding points 1 and 2. What can the devs do to reduce the supply of AD or increase the demand of AD with minimal or beneficial impacts to the players?
so spending zen is a ad sink. I think people buy and hoard zen.
No. No. It is only a sink when it is destroyed as plasticbat said. AD and Zen values are tied to each other but they ARE NOT the same. It's not a conversion. It's an exchange. AD has it's own value and how much Zen you can buy is based on the value of AD. They are intrinsically tied together but absolutely NOT the same. Zen sinks DO NOT sink AD. Zen sink s sink Zen while the AD merrily sits and deflates in value.
I just disagree I guess. ad is gone once it's spent be that putting it into zen and buying something with it or spending it as ad.
it is not sunk if you buy zen and hold it. or if you hold your ad.
a rose by any other name though. if you can buy one with the other they are the same in essence. it really is a holistic problem.
not sure why the store would not be relevant to this point yeah more people would want zen to buy things but you'd get a lot more people just buying zen to buy things too and with that exchange some of it for ad. it's another part of the same coin. if more people did buy zen with their ad to buy things in teh zen store that's effectively also an ad sink is it not?
It is only relevant in the sense that "The more desirable the items in the Zen store are, the worse the Zax trade imbalance gets."
The goal is to make AD more valuable. There are four ways to make AD more valuable.
1) Reduce the amount of AD entering the system. 2) Increase the uses for AD. 3) Increase the amount of Zen entering the system TO BUY AD (if it isn't used to buy AD it doesn't help) 4) Reduce the uses for Zen
If you make the Zen store better then the amount of people trying to obtain Zen with AD will go up thus devaluing AD even more. that is the opposite of the goal. See how 4) is REDUCE the uses of Zen...not increase.
Forget the Zen Store. You are looking at it backwards. Focus on feedback regarding points 1 and 2. What can the devs do to reduce the supply of AD or increase the demand of AD with minimal or beneficial impacts to the players?
I think this view is looking at this with a myopic lense. I never said do this and this only. I think it's the other half of the coin. sure ad should be lessened. but also relevant things to buy with zen should be GREATLY increased. same with ad. right now nearly everything available is priced from 4 years ago and not useful to anyone in game and out. a few things have been updated but not enough.
buying zen should ALSO be an ad sink. but the zen should actually be spent. (I don't have the numbers but I'd love to see them) I'd bet far more zen is NOT being spent but just being hoarded. and then spit back out into ad when the user wants ad for something.
the real problem is there isn't enough to spend ad on. be it zen or ad. because at the end of the day they are hte same. two currencies that equal the same thing. if more is in the zen store that is relevant and attractive the very fact that the zax is backed up is going to cause more people to spend real money. if they balance that with more to buy with ad in game then you're going to get a much healthier exchange.
Zen and AD are two different currency. Using one to buy another is not a sink for either currency.
Player A has 500 AD. Player B has 1 Zen. Total: 1 Zen and 500 AD. Player A want to buy Zen and Player B want to buy AD. After the transaction, player A has 1 Zen and player B has 500 AD. Total: 1 Zen and 500 AD.
There is no sink of anything.
if they use it to buy something then it is. the money is spent. gone poof
While I wish I could make unlimited AD for my own needs, I understand the economic impacts of in game currencies a bit and admit this is a good change for the game's longevity, so while this will be individually unpopular it helps prevent the potential erosion on the value of the currency, so go for it. I actually like that the cap is per account, it is highly annoying to send salvage from character to character and time consuming to run randoms on multiples.
I think in conjunction with this change you should consider changes to the bonus rAD from invocation as well, and ideas for AD sinks - unbind item from character might be a huge win for both sides, as well as AD for wards or other ZM only items...its annoying to have to play the Zax to get zen, but maybe that is too complex. How about an AD based exchange process, such as I can trade in low level items plus AD to get higher level items guarded with RNG, like +5 rings or particular items needed for final refining...I know we try to use the key method for those, but that seem not to work right now as the AD problem is ongoing...
TR - Sun: 16000 IL OP - Sunshine: 16000 IL
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plasticbatMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 12,400Arc User
not sure why the store would not be relevant to this point yeah more people would want zen to buy things but you'd get a lot more people just buying zen to buy things too and with that exchange some of it for ad. it's another part of the same coin. if more people did buy zen with their ad to buy things in teh zen store that's effectively also an ad sink is it not?
It is only relevant in the sense that "The more desirable the items in the Zen store are, the worse the Zax trade imbalance gets."
The goal is to make AD more valuable. There are four ways to make AD more valuable.
1) Reduce the amount of AD entering the system. 2) Increase the uses for AD. 3) Increase the amount of Zen entering the system TO BUY AD (if it isn't used to buy AD it doesn't help) 4) Reduce the uses for Zen
If you make the Zen store better then the amount of people trying to obtain Zen with AD will go up thus devaluing AD even more. that is the opposite of the goal. See how 4) is REDUCE the uses of Zen...not increase.
Forget the Zen Store. You are looking at it backwards. Focus on feedback regarding points 1 and 2. What can the devs do to reduce the supply of AD or increase the demand of AD with minimal or beneficial impacts to the players?
I think this view is looking at this with a myopic lense. I never said do this and this only. I think it's the other half of the coin. sure ad should be lessened. but also relevant things to buy with zen should be GREATLY increased. same with ad. right now nearly everything available is priced from 4 years ago and not useful to anyone in game and out. a few things have been updated but not enough.
buying zen should ALSO be an ad sink. but the zen should actually be spent. (I don't have the numbers but I'd love to see them) I'd bet far more zen is NOT being spent but just being hoarded. and then spit back out into ad when the user wants ad for something.
the real problem is there isn't enough to spend ad on. be it zen or ad. because at the end of the day they are hte same. two currencies that equal the same thing. if more is in the zen store that is relevant and attractive the very fact that the zax is backed up is going to cause more people to spend real money. if they balance that with more to buy with ad in game then you're going to get a much healthier exchange.
Zen and AD are two different currency. Using one to buy another is not a sink for either currency.
Player A has 500 AD. Player B has 1 Zen. Total: 1 Zen and 500 AD. Player A want to buy Zen and Player B want to buy AD. After the transaction, player A has 1 Zen and player B has 500 AD. Total: 1 Zen and 500 AD.
There is no sink of anything.
if they use it to buy something then it is. the money is spent. gone poof
It is poof from your wallet but the money is not gone. It is passed to another person's wallet. The money is really poof if that person set a fire to burn it.
Let me try another approach.
I have 500 AD and you have 1 Zen. I buy your Zen. You have 500 AD and I have 1 Zen. You buy my Zen. You have 1 Zen and I have 500 AD. Repeat 10 times.
How much AD and Zen are gone?
*** The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will. ***
As I saw the info about the changes today in our alliance chat, I immediately thought:
This changes the rules of the game and the way I play immense.
To not forget: It's a game and a lot of commentators here wrote based on emotions, which really shows how much efforts they pushed into it.
Starting about 7-8 months ago, since some weeks I finally get to the current content and I spent a lot of hours to hit the 15k ilvl last week.
To get here, I expanded to 8 char slots, all level 70, running day in and out the random queues to get the max of roug diamonds to refine, making me about 300k/day (some loot sales in ah incl.)
In the first view, this change really hits me hard. But on the other side of the medal: Running all these easy dungeons is not really fun, but time consuming. Even i could progress quite good, it's boring.
Still I have to upgrade a lot. I may have 10% of a full lvl 12 rank enhanced gear now in the means of what it is worth in astral diamonds, not speaking about maxing all out.
In that regard, for a new player to get some kind of endgame gear, you really have a lot of work to do in this game.
And... based on the numbers which are published in this thread, I think the overall costs for the gear are more than the 175% people gained in astral diamonds in the the last 2 years. Meaning the inflation in diamonds is also based on the needs for what you do have to have right now than before. E.g. a 14k+ search is usual for tong.
As in every mmorpg every player has it's own targets what he would like to reach, getting the best possible gear is a broad popular one. And usual, as if you start a new game, you are more enthusiastic, playing more time a day.
My question is: How will this 100k cap and the new random queue earning system influence the players evolution in meassure of time and effort to spent? If this leads to even much more time to spent, this could have a big impact for new players.
I really can't answer this. As it influences a lot of the play mechanics, which bases on incomes you get per char (like weekly quests) and you get per account (like the box key you get for vip) versus the progress you are doing. If I just mirror this down to today, it looks worse, I'd look for a 70% progress decrease. And I don't foresee yet, what the new mod requirements will be.
In my perspective, a player still in progress needs every diamond he gets to gear up, so the ad to rp points exchange rate is the more interesting one. As I spent most of my ad for my gear needs in the auction house as the wonderous bazar is simple to expensive, the ad sinks is just 10% auction tax and the money is most likely passed to players which are better geared than I and therefore making the distance to reach them, not smaller The rich player just get richer.
My simple solution to lower the astral diamond overal total, is just to have more competitve prices for refinement and upgrades in the wonderous bazar, or to get something back from the bazar to buy your items there instead of passing it to other players thru the auction house or even the trade channel. Maybe a bazar payback card bonus system or some sort of "wonderous" gifts, like rng refinement packs. Make the wonderous bazar more attractive and you'll see people converting zen to ad to buy there.
Conclusion: Just cutting the possible income of the players is not really a good solution. It more leads to a "revoultion" xD
The comment was made that people said they'd quit over changes in the last few mods, yet they are still playing. Another comment was made that people claim they quit but are still here posting. Let me preface this by saying I am a player who did quit, so there is no point in pretending like people are letting off steam by threatening. Players do indeed quit.
I was told about the mod announcement and came here to see what was going on, thinking maybe some positive changes would bring me back. That won't be the case.
I'm in the camp that does not think the 100k cap is a bad thing. It is a decent amount for most (but not all) players. What offends me to the point of posting and pretty much killing any future thought of coming back is how this particular announcement was approached. From an outsiders' perspective, this looks like Cryptic thinks their players are stupid. This announcement puts off the vibe of "they will believe what we tell them, so let's act like they should love this."
I will reiterate points already made here. First, while the threads are separate, there was another announcement that the amount of AD earned will NOT increase, as devs are implying here. It will decrease for players due to random queue changes. If I started playing again, I would see a loss from queues on top of less salvage. Second, all this will do is change the exchange rate, not help the over all economy. Inflation will kick in, so several things will happen at that point: seeing something on the AH for 3,000 AD will feel exactly like 30,000 AD feels today, when smaller amounts of AD feel more valuable there will be an increase in impulse buys for the smaller ZEN purchases to convert to AD, and when it comes to value there will not be a reduction in AD floating around. Worth is directly related to amount.
The person who said the problem with the AH is the terrible loot drop table was right. I am sorry that I didn't tag them in this post. I DO NOT and have NEVER believed loot should rain down, but I am fully convinced the most recent drop rates are beyond reason. I also don't particularly care for the way we've been told drop rates weren't changed for salvage. They were. I'm not stupid and noticed very quickly. If the devs really wanted to get rid of AD floating around, they would make more decent things available in the bazaar.
Business sense would tell you to not make a negative move that feels like a punishment when a positive one can be made instead. And I do mean a real positive action, not trying to sell a negative one as something great, like in this announcement.
More people will leave the game, not just threaten to do so. But since the general opinion is "Oh, they're just saying that" I can tell that risk isn't taken seriously. We all know player numbers have dropped since 12. It was being discussed way before I quit. Why act like it isn't an issue and chase off more players?
The tone of this whole decision, the way the players are being treated as if they're stupid, the further drop in what small guilds can earn, and the way the random queue seal changes will further kill off the vast majority of the game's content completely outweighs what is admittedly an extremely cool new zone I would have otherwise loved.
I know no one will listen to absolutely anything negative said in this thread because there is a strange resistance to listening to the players, but I want to emphasize again.... This is coming from someone who has already stopped giving you any money telling you that this will make more people do the same thing I did. Quit.
Correct me if I am wrong, but this seems to be a rough AD refine limit, not an AD earning limit. You can still earn more than 100k rough AD per day. But only refine up to 100k rough AD per day. On some days, I refine more than 100k AD, and on other days, I barely have time to play, If I earn too much rough AD one day, then I will refine it on another day, when I have no time to play.
You are right, the problem is that one of biggest source of rAD is going to be removed. If you read also the post about the changes on random queue you will see that only the first time with any of your chars is the one that get the AD reward, so the sources of rAD are going to be just 1 random queue at day of each type (which include finnishing mSP, FBI, etc) as you will get the big AD reward JUST ONE PER ACCOUNT each day. That mean that even if you finish all the random queues including the ones that include FBI and MSP you are going to still be short of 65k rAD in order to refine 100k
Basically, the problem is not just the low 100k limit, the problem is that 99% of the players have are not going to reach that limit more than once or maybe twice a week, unless they become seriously hardcore on the amount of salvageable items they could get.
not sure why the store would not be relevant to this point yeah more people would want zen to buy things but you'd get a lot more people just buying zen to buy things too and with that exchange some of it for ad. it's another part of the same coin. if more people did buy zen with their ad to buy things in teh zen store that's effectively also an ad sink is it not?
That's not quite how it works out. Those who directly buy Zen because of good items in the store, spend it on those items. Those who don't spend money on Zen and want things in the store trade their AD to get the Zen to buy the store items. The better the store/more items they want, the more AD they deposit in the ZAX, the higher the exchange rate or the higher the backlog if the exchange is capped.
You can see this anytime there is a sale in the store. The ZAX doesn't go down from players buying store items and converting left over Zen to AD. It rises sharply from players wanting access to the store items and putting lots of AD into the ZAX.
currently yes. but that might not look that way if the store were relevant other than keys and wards and occasional things like the new tiger pack. ditto with the wonderous bazaar.
the big problem is that people aren't spending their ad fast enough right? that's because there is nothing new to spend it on other than one offs here and there. if there were enough cool things coming at us, new mounts companions fashions classes ect then yes the zax would be backlogged for awhile but people would start getting poor. we've all been around long enough that we have all the things. so money keeps compounding.
also the events are really stale and out of date for rewards.
at the end of the day ad is ad if it's thrown into the zax or kept as currency.
I don't know how much this factors in but I think some people buy zen and hoard it just to keep the ad out of their hair. you dont want it on your toon or you can accidently lose large amounts of money to misclicks in professions. other reason to hoard is because of backlog.
when the game was young and the things in the store were relevant what did that look like over all on paper?
overall I'm not saying that changes don't need to be made on the side of just having less ad in the economy but there are other factors to consider as well.
Comments
buying zen should ALSO be an ad sink. but the zen should actually be spent. (I don't have the numbers but I'd love to see them) I'd bet far more zen is NOT being spent but just being hoarded. and then spit back out into ad when the user wants ad for something.
the real problem is there isn't enough to spend ad on. be it zen or ad. because at the end of the day they are hte same. two currencies that equal the same thing. if more is in the zen store that is relevant and attractive the very fact that the zax is backed up is going to cause more people to spend real money. if they balance that with more to buy with ad in game then you're going to get a much healthier exchange.
Player A has 500 AD. Player B has 1 Zen. Total: 1 Zen and 500 AD.
Player A want to buy Zen and Player B want to buy AD.
After the transaction, player A has 1 Zen and player B has 500 AD. Total: 1 Zen and 500 AD.
There is no sink of anything.
#1: The amount of AD, on all characters combined, is 175% of what it was in May 2016
#2: Every 3 days, the total amount of AD on all characters combined rises by about 1 billion. Not just "1 billion is refined" but "1 billion more is created than is destroyed".
So, 1 billion every 3 days, total went up 175% in 730 days, assuming that that 1 billion number is roughly correct across the last two years, that means that the 243.3 billion created since May 2016 is 75% of the May 2016 amount, meaning the total AD in the system is roughly ..... 568 billion? Given some fudging on the numbers, maybe swing that anywhere between 550 and 600 billion? Am I in the right ballpark?
(That's actually really cool)
I know you said a "low single digit" percentage of accounts refine more than 100k/day, does that number change significantly if you look at 700k/wk or 3m/mo - seeing how many accounts might rarely pass 100k in a day but when they do pass it, they pass it *by a lot*, bringing their average per-day past 100K even if they only actually pass 100K one day in four or something?
I'd also be really interested in seeing the percentages of accounts that refine 1.5m/mo (50K/day average) or 4.5m/mo (150k/day average)
1. There will be an account wide 100K rAD refinement limit. Let me point it out loud. It is per account, not per character.
2. You will earn a lot less rAD from RQ per account. You may have hard time to reach the 100K rAD refinement limit. Probably, not even 70K per account. IMO, #1 is not something people should worry about first.
How would this go? (Not great at math or foreseeing economy changes).
My logic says that removing preservation and coal wards from the zen shop but adding it to the wonderous bazaar, would create a big ad sink. It is the primary thing people buy with zen I would think.
Or am I missing something?
> @noworries#8859
>
> How would this go? (Not great at math or foreseeing economy changes).
>
> My logic says that removing preservation and coal wards from the zen shop but adding it to the wonderous bazaar, would create a big ad sink. It is the primary thing people buy with zen I would think.
>
> Or am I missing something?
There must be numbers from marks that would give you guys an idea, no?
Yes, players will hold onto their Zen for awhile for a few reasons, but eventually, all or a portion of it gets spent in the Zen store.
> I'm wondering how much deflation this move will cause in the overall economy. Any serious deflation won't be good for moving things on the Auction House; people will be sitting on their AD, waiting for things to get cheaper.
>
> They'll have to get cheaper if people are going to want to move them. With the deflation of AD, less will buy more. Sellers aren't going to be able to maintain the current prices for long - and they shouldn't expect to. @noworries#8859
>
> How would this go? (Not great at math or foreseeing economy changes).
>
> My logic says that removing preservation and coal wards from the zen shop but adding it to the wonderous bazaar, would create a big ad sink. It is the primary thing people buy with zen I would think.
>
> Or am I missing something?
>
> The Wondrous Bazaar essentially caps the prices on things like wards that can also be purchased in the Auction House. Whatever price it affixes to an item, savvy players will sell/buy it for less in the Auction House. The only people who'll sink their AD at top price in the Bazaar are new players who just don't know any better.
I can’t speak for all platforms. But on Xbox the price of gmops and smops, outside a bazaar sale, is more or less the same. One day 3k cheaper and the next 5k more expensive. So depending on the price on the trade house, on some days it would work as a sink.
Okay, so maybe you two are right, and I'm not trying to argue - just thinking it out. I imagine the bulk of players you'd catch in that kind of hustle are new or some kid burning through gift cards, and I don't know that many new players are hankering after wards. I'd think most players who need them have been in game long enough to have a bunch of their own zen on hand. If wards do wind up in the Bazaar, why would anyone buy them from a VIP when they could just as easily spend their zen on 12 months of VIP and get those wards for 25% less, too?
Why would some people buy from AH from VIP players instead of being VIP themselves?
1. They don't have zen but they have AD.
2. they don't know better.
There are people doing that right now but the items are GMOP and SMOP.
You can still earn more than 100k rough AD per day. But only refine up to 100k rough AD per day.
On some days, I refine more than 100k AD, and on other days, I barely have time to play,
If I earn too much rough AD one day, then I will refine it on another day, when I have no time to play.
I just disagree I guess. ad is gone once it's spent be that putting it into zen and buying something with it or spending it as ad.
it is not sunk if you buy zen and hold it. or if you hold your ad.
a rose by any other name though. if you can buy one with the other they are the same in essence. it really is a holistic problem.
if they use it to buy something then it is. the money is spent. gone poof
I think in conjunction with this change you should consider changes to the bonus rAD from invocation as well, and ideas for AD sinks - unbind item from character might be a huge win for both sides, as well as AD for wards or other ZM only items...its annoying to have to play the Zax to get zen, but maybe that is too complex. How about an AD based exchange process, such as I can trade in low level items plus AD to get higher level items guarded with RNG, like +5 rings or particular items needed for final refining...I know we try to use the key method for those, but that seem not to work right now as the AD problem is ongoing...
OP - Sunshine: 16000 IL
Casual Dailies
The money is really poof if that person set a fire to burn it.
Let me try another approach.
I have 500 AD and you have 1 Zen.
I buy your Zen. You have 500 AD and I have 1 Zen.
You buy my Zen. You have 1 Zen and I have 500 AD.
Repeat 10 times.
How much AD and Zen are gone?
This changes the rules of the game and the way I play immense.
To not forget: It's a game and a lot of commentators here wrote based on emotions, which really shows how much efforts they pushed into it.
Starting about 7-8 months ago, since some weeks I finally get to the current content and I spent a lot of hours to hit the 15k ilvl last week.
To get here, I expanded to 8 char slots, all level 70, running day in and out the random queues to get the max of roug diamonds to refine, making me about 300k/day (some loot sales in ah incl.)
In the first view, this change really hits me hard.
But on the other side of the medal: Running all these easy dungeons is not really fun, but time consuming. Even i could progress quite good, it's boring.
Still I have to upgrade a lot. I may have 10% of a full lvl 12 rank enhanced gear now in the means of what it is worth in astral diamonds, not speaking about maxing all out.
In that regard, for a new player to get some kind of endgame gear, you really have a lot of work to do in this game.
And... based on the numbers which are published in this thread, I think the overall costs for the gear are more than the 175% people gained in astral diamonds in the the last 2 years.
Meaning the inflation in diamonds is also based on the needs for what you do have to have right now than before. E.g. a 14k+ search is usual for tong.
As in every mmorpg every player has it's own targets what he would like to reach, getting the best possible gear is a broad popular one.
And usual, as if you start a new game, you are more enthusiastic, playing more time a day.
My question is: How will this 100k cap and the new random queue earning system influence the players evolution in meassure of time and effort to spent?
If this leads to even much more time to spent, this could have a big impact for new players.
I really can't answer this. As it influences a lot of the play mechanics, which bases on incomes you get per char (like weekly quests) and you get per account (like the box key you get for vip) versus the progress you are doing. If I just mirror this down to today, it looks worse, I'd look for a 70% progress decrease. And I don't foresee yet, what the new mod requirements will be.
In my perspective, a player still in progress needs every diamond he gets to gear up, so the ad to rp points exchange rate is the more interesting one. As I spent most of my ad for my gear needs in the auction house as the wonderous bazar is simple to expensive, the ad sinks is just 10% auction tax and the money is most likely passed to players which are better geared than I and therefore making the distance to reach them, not smaller
My simple solution to lower the astral diamond overal total, is just to have more competitve prices for refinement and upgrades in the wonderous bazar, or to get something back from the bazar to buy your items there instead of passing it to other players thru the auction house or even the trade channel. Maybe a bazar payback card bonus system or some sort of "wonderous" gifts, like rng refinement packs. Make the wonderous bazar more attractive and you'll see people converting zen to ad to buy there.
Conclusion: Just cutting the possible income of the players is not really a good solution. It more leads to a "revoultion" xD
I was told about the mod announcement and came here to see what was going on, thinking maybe some positive changes would bring me back. That won't be the case.
I'm in the camp that does not think the 100k cap is a bad thing. It is a decent amount for most (but not all) players. What offends me to the point of posting and pretty much killing any future thought of coming back is how this particular announcement was approached. From an outsiders' perspective, this looks like Cryptic thinks their players are stupid. This announcement puts off the vibe of "they will believe what we tell them, so let's act like they should love this."
I will reiterate points already made here. First, while the threads are separate, there was another announcement that the amount of AD earned will NOT increase, as devs are implying here. It will decrease for players due to random queue changes. If I started playing again, I would see a loss from queues on top of less salvage. Second, all this will do is change the exchange rate, not help the over all economy. Inflation will kick in, so several things will happen at that point: seeing something on the AH for 3,000 AD will feel exactly like 30,000 AD feels today, when smaller amounts of AD feel more valuable there will be an increase in impulse buys for the smaller ZEN purchases to convert to AD, and when it comes to value there will not be a reduction in AD floating around. Worth is directly related to amount.
The person who said the problem with the AH is the terrible loot drop table was right. I am sorry that I didn't tag them in this post. I DO NOT and have NEVER believed loot should rain down, but I am fully convinced the most recent drop rates are beyond reason. I also don't particularly care for the way we've been told drop rates weren't changed for salvage. They were. I'm not stupid and noticed very quickly. If the devs really wanted to get rid of AD floating around, they would make more decent things available in the bazaar.
Business sense would tell you to not make a negative move that feels like a punishment when a positive one can be made instead. And I do mean a real positive action, not trying to sell a negative one as something great, like in this announcement.
More people will leave the game, not just threaten to do so. But since the general opinion is "Oh, they're just saying that" I can tell that risk isn't taken seriously. We all know player numbers have dropped since 12. It was being discussed way before I quit. Why act like it isn't an issue and chase off more players?
The tone of this whole decision, the way the players are being treated as if they're stupid, the further drop in what small guilds can earn, and the way the random queue seal changes will further kill off the vast majority of the game's content completely outweighs what is admittedly an extremely cool new zone I would have otherwise loved.
I know no one will listen to absolutely anything negative said in this thread because there is a strange resistance to listening to the players, but I want to emphasize again.... This is coming from someone who has already stopped giving you any money telling you that this will make more people do the same thing I did. Quit.
Basically, the problem is not just the low 100k limit, the problem is that 99% of the players have are not going to reach that limit more than once or maybe twice a week, unless they become seriously hardcore on the amount of salvageable items they could get.
currently yes. but that might not look that way if the store were relevant other than keys and wards and occasional things like the new tiger pack. ditto with the wonderous bazaar.
the big problem is that people aren't spending their ad fast enough right? that's because there is nothing new to spend it on other than one offs here and there. if there were enough cool things coming at us, new mounts companions fashions classes ect then yes the zax would be backlogged for awhile but people would start getting poor. we've all been around long enough that we have all the things. so money keeps compounding.
also the events are really stale and out of date for rewards.
at the end of the day ad is ad if it's thrown into the zax or kept as currency.
I don't know how much this factors in but I think some people buy zen and hoard it just to keep the ad out of their hair. you dont want it on your toon or you can accidently lose large amounts of money to misclicks in professions. other reason to hoard is because of backlog.
when the game was young and the things in the store were relevant what did that look like over all on paper?
overall I'm not saying that changes don't need to be made on the side of just having less ad in the economy but there are other factors to consider as well.