New rant on Random Epic Dungeons

callumf

I see the clamour has died down so are these really working as intended now?

Speaking as a 14.3k GF my recent experiences would say they arent. The iL required to do them is still too low.

Recent experiences would suggest it takes me about three or four attempts at completing a RED:

Valindras Tower - group of circa 10k iL players [plus Guild Boons I assume] and me, two players constantly dying before the first mob or players aggroing everyting in site then dying, or just not hafing the DPS to survive. We voted to quit after 15 minutes of pain.

CN - almost party wiped a few times before we got to the Beholder thing, then after five minutes of trying to kill it we again gave up.

I still say normal content doesn't encourage proper teamwork.

nitocris83

Hi @callumf#9018. As with most features, the team is continuously discussing any necessary adjustments and looking at player feedback. I know RQs is a topic of discussion so we encourage players to keep leaving constructive feedback.

lowjohn

You're a 14K GF, you should be able to trivially solo VT up until the final boss, and you should only need help for the last boss because of the hand attack that requires a second player to set you loose. The minimum IL for that dungeon is like 7K, and a party of 7K people can still finish it easily.

Groups that are poorly geared, have a bad combination of classes, or barely meet the IL requirement getting stuck in FBI and MSP is a real problem. 11K-14K people getting stuck in Valindra's Tower is a sign that there's something deeply wrong with builds or tactics.

plasticbat

lowjohn said:

You're a 14K GF, you should be able to trivially solo VT up until the final boss, and you should only need help for the last boss because of the hand attack that requires a second player to set you loose. The minimum IL for that dungeon is like 7K, and a party of 7K people can still finish it easily.

Groups that are poorly geared, have a bad combination of classes, or barely meet the IL requirement getting stuck in FBI and MSP is a real problem. 11K-14K people getting stuck in Valindra's Tower is a sign that there's something deeply wrong with builds or tactics.

I agree 14K should be able to solo it until the last boss. Our alliance used to have people solo VT until the last boss (I did that too) and asked people with alt to join so that they can get the rewards for very little effort. That was more frequent before RQ. Now, once a while.

callumf

dafrca

callumf#9018 said:

I see the clamour has died down so are these really working as intended now?

Not in my opinion. Rather I have just given up that they will ever fix it.

rikitaki

Now, I have to add - if you entered RQ on GF, you entered as tank. (unfortunately every path of GF is considered as tank, the same issue as templock is considered dps)

If you are tank, you are supposed to keep others from harm, taking agro and most of the damage. What you described is total disregard to that fact. So the blame for having troubles in such dungeons goes on your head - the tank discarded its duty or simply performed really poorly.

Now, I do know that in RQ you can hit on some exotic behaviour but if someone runs in front of tank and dies, it is simply not the game to blame here.

callumf

rikitaki said:

Now, I do know that in RQ you can hit on some exotic behaviour but if someone runs in front of tank and dies, it is simply not the game to blame here.

Yes this happens all the time - players arent used to sitting behind a tank they just run around like headless chickens.

My point being that surely at iL 11k the OTHER players should be dying constantly in VT?

rikitaki

I think one red area/a couple of normal UNMITIGATED strikes should take a DPS player down, yes. Again: that is the job of a tank to take those strikes instead. Or support classes to lower the damage output of the mobs/rise party defences.
If either of those slack away, any dung might become unplayable.

I played VT when it was high-end dung and we did not have the gear everyone can get today. And believe or not: once in a while we managed to successfully pass through. With easily accessible chult weapons and league armour the only thing VT requires is to actually respectfully play the designated roles.

As far as you described your situation - other players were dying and the overpowered tank blames the game. You probably picked a wrong char to play.

minotaur2857

rikitaki said:

Now, I have to add - if you entered RQ on GF, you entered as tank. (unfortunately every path of GF is considered as tank, the same issue as templock is considered dps)

If you are tank, you are supposed to keep others from harm, taking agro and most of the damage. What you described is total disregard to that fact. So the blame for having troubles in such dungeons goes on your head - the tank discarded its duty or simply performed really poorly.

Now, I do know that in RQ you can hit on some exotic behaviour but if someone runs in front of tank and dies, it is simply not the game to blame here.

And this was one of the major beefs with RQ my GF is in NO WAY a tank, and is still one they haven't done anything about despite many people complaining since before it hit live. @nitocris83 you say you encourage constructive feedback, but you then completely ignore it, so why do we bother, 90%+ of feedback has been negative on RQs and nothing meaningful has changed.

callumf

rikitaki said:

I think one red area/a couple of normal UNMITIGATED strikes should take a DPS player down, yes. Again: that is the job of a tank to take those strikes instead. Or support classes to lower the damage output of the mobs/rise party defences.
If either of those slack away, any dung might become unplayable.

I played VT when it was high-end dung and we did not have the gear everyone can get today. And believe or not: once in a while we managed to successfully pass through. With easily accessible chult weapons and league armour the only thing VT requires is to actually respectfully play the designated roles.

As far as you described your situation - other players were dying and the overpowered tank blames the game. You probably picked a wrong char to play.

Hi there - I think that perhaps to explain the situation has muddied the waters. I dont disagree with nearly everything you have said and I make it my job to try and protect other players.

Admittedly this was the first RED in VT which I have abandoned and my post was written out of frustration.

In this specific case maybe the iL wasnt the issue, but it sure is on a lot of RED runs such as FBI and MSP. SO lets agree to moan about those RED cases

rikitaki

Well, to be honest I think it was evil thing to do to bind T1+T2+T3... dungeons together. And the bundle called random epic dungeon puts a lot of players into a tight spot - they have to choose if the RAD is worth the frustration. (assuming they even unlocked all the requirements...)
For me is the answer easy: It is not worth the effort. Since the change I avoid running random epic dungeons if there is not pre-made group that can take FBI without issues. Which means I don't actively seek epic dungeons anymore. (I still want the RAD so I go for the skirmishes instead. Even the Prophecy of madness is better roll then MSP - well, it is a tight choice... )
Anyway, the best source for RAD is now baby dungeons, so that is what many 16k IL players run nowadays... (yep, funny, as screaming does not help)

But still: I do feel like any rumble on IL requirements is not well placed here. Well balanced party mostly can do any dungeons on the IL that is claimed - but it might take ages and a lot of suffering.

lowjohn

callumf#9018 said:

Hi there - I think that perhaps to explain the situation has muddied the waters. I dont disagree with nearly everything you have said and I make it my job to try and protect other players.

Admittedly this was the first RED in VT which I have abandoned and my post was written out of frustration.

In this specific case maybe the iL wasnt the issue, but it sure is on a lot of RED runs such as FBI and MSP. SO lets agree to moan about those RED cases

I was just surprised at the idea that a run like that could bog down and fail - OK, the DPS are "only" 11K (the RED minimum), and maybe they run out ahead of the tank and get smacked.... but you as tank should be rolling up behind them, grabbing aggro, and killing everything while they respawn, and hopefully they won't be dumb enough to do it twice and the rest of the run goes smoothly.

I'm just surprised, genuinely surprised, that as a 14K GF you're dying in VT to ANYTHING, or to the beholder in CN, and not just surviving forever and killing it slower than you would if the DPS wasn't dead.

(But yeah, I totally agree about FBI and MSP RED runs. 3 DPS, 1 tank, 1 healer is not an ideal setup for those dungeons to begin with, which makes it much harder to carry 11Kers who have no business being there. And to be clear, it's not the "11K" that makes them unable to contribute, there are a lot of perfectly good 11K toons - but people who are really skilled at 11K don't stay 11K for long.)

callumf

lowjohn said:

callumf#9018 said:

Hi there - I think that perhaps to explain the situation has muddied the waters. I dont disagree with nearly everything you have said and I make it my job to try and protect other players.

Admittedly this was the first RED in VT which I have abandoned and my post was written out of frustration.

In this specific case maybe the iL wasnt the issue, but it sure is on a lot of RED runs such as FBI and MSP. SO lets agree to moan about those RED cases

I was just surprised at the idea that a run like that could bog down and fail - OK, the DPS are "only" 11K (the RED minimum), and maybe they run out ahead of the tank and get smacked.... but you as tank should be rolling up behind them, grabbing aggro, and killing everything while they respawn, and hopefully they won't be dumb enough to do it twice and the rest of the run goes smoothly.

I'm just surprised, genuinely surprised, that as a 14K GF you're dying in VT to ANYTHING, or to the beholder in CN, and not just surviving forever and killing it slower than you would if the DPS wasn't dead.

(But yeah, I totally agree about FBI and MSP RED runs. 3 DPS, 1 tank, 1 healer is not an ideal setup for those dungeons to begin with, which makes it much harder to carry 11Kers who have no business being there. And to be clear, it's not the "11K" that makes them unable to contribute, there are a lot of perfectly good 11K toons - but people who are really skilled at 11K don't stay 11K for long.)

Yes it was a surprise - I guess I bailed out of frustration. We hadnt even got to the first boss in VT after 15 mins. There were players I was picking up and killing the mobs [yes I can solo most of VT - I went solo and had a go the other day for fun but it was slow and frankly I'm bored of button mashing at the moment] and they would run back and get squished again. Lots of frustration. Yes 11k iL should be enough for VT if the players have some cohesive tactics.

greywynd

Did you try talking to them?

lowjohn

minotaur2857 said:

And this was one of the major beefs with RQ my GF is in NO WAY a tank, and is still one they haven't done anything about despite many people complaining since before it hit live.

If your GF has the gear to be good at DPS, you can totally tank anything short of FBI with a power swap or two - Knight's Valour instead of Knight's Challenge, whatever that low-level AoE marking one is called instead of Griffon's Wrath, and Bob's your uncle, you're now tanking CN without a problem and without a single gear or feat change.

(And that's assuming you don't just build a Tactician or Protector loadout.)

callumf

greywynd said:

Did you try talking to them?

I did ask them to slow down and stop drawing in all the mobs. I did try and communicate yes indeed amigo

pitshade

FBI can be completed with 3 DPS fairly easily if (big if) they listen to chat and obey the boss mechanics. Only bad part is the climb, that takes avoiding overpulling and being willing to run back into ths fight if you die.

lowjohn

pitshade said:

FBI can be completed with 3 DPS fairly easily if (big if) they listen to chat and obey the boss mechanics. Only bad part is the climb, that takes avoiding overpulling and being willing to run back into ths fight if you die.

Sure it *can* be, but a full party of 11Ks with weak/no bondings and substandard class synergy can also make it difficult to impossible.

A great tank, great healer, or great DPS can carry a lot. If *nobody* is capable of that kind of carry, though, it can get brutally hard, very fast.

asterotg

I love this 'it is your fault' comments. Thats is one of the reasons many of the players I know did quit. This entitlement. 'You' have to 'play at your top' have 'better gear' or 'tank dps and heal yourself' otherwise you are a bad player, bc you cant expect anything from the other players. This RED is one epic failure.

Everyone has to do his 1st TONG run sometime, so dont be a jerk and waste 3 hours carrying 3 11k players. You signed up for skirmishes, so plz stay and clear the dungeon while me and my 3k pals play a round of LOL. The other 4 guys did spent some time and gear, to push their alts up to 11k, why does this 17k jerk quit our FBI group after half an hour. This system rewards playing a multitude of low gear alts and creates one big problem. Ppl with low gear on alts, who no nothing about the class they are playing or its mechanics wasting the time of the few decent players left, who did not quit already.

bobgreenwade

So far the only RED I've had regular problems with (other than people running ahead before I even arrive, and skipping foes that I then have to deal with solo, as discussed in another thread) is FBI. Only once have I gotten further than the top of the initial mountain, and usually people are unable to get past the first two encounter groups even after 7-8 tries. I get that it's supposed to be challenging, but this is ridiculous.

The only time I've had a problem in any Epic Dungeon where I'd say it was the fault of underpowered players was an instance of Lair of Lostmauth, where my healing OP wound up with the highest Threat because two other characters, either of which would have made better Tanks, were simply not wearing any armor. There was not getting past the scorpions with that gang.

(Mind you, I've only been sent into the Epic Spellplague Caverns three times, of which two were spoiled by technical problems at my end and the third by people quitting and not being replaced, so I'm not counting that at all.)

pitshade

During the climb, the designated tank and healer actually have to do those roles in order for it to work, outside of higher tier, optimized groups. And everyone should be willing to actually keep trying if they get killed, pick themselves up and run back from the campfire. Unfortunately, so little in the earlier dungeons requires teamwork, people playing their roles and being willing to keep trying that FBI is a very hard mental adjustment to make.

pitshade

lowjohn said:

Sure it *can* be, but a full party of 11Ks with weak/no bondings and substandard class synergy can also make it difficult to impossible.

A great tank, great healer, or great DPS can carry a lot. If *nobody* is capable of that kind of carry, though, it can get brutally hard, very fast.

Well, it's a given that a party with suboptimal builds and gear, at the minimum IL, is going to struggle in any content. I've seen groups struggle in ETOS. It's not a surprise that FBI isn't going to be easy for the unprepared.

krsbaws

Hi! I have 3 chars I'll regularly queue REDs with (17k CW, 15k OP, 15k DC).

Whilst I'm always happy to get etos, doesnt bother me if FBI or MSP pop up!

Ok, some of the time we wont make it up the hill...some of the the time Kabal and his broken chains roast the pug but some of the time u do a 35 min FBi run with your CW as dps and I would never have the balls to organise a FBI run around my CW!

I can understand that a dps GF (like original poster) might have problems queuing for REDs, but to me, it seems like common sense to have a tank loadout if you are going to be thrust in to the role by the queue...

...peace!

aelfgarmt

The grouping of the Random Epic dungeons is surely messed up. It is sad that a decent group can almost completely ignore mechanics of most of the dungeons (for example, everything in ETOS where you used to have to stay out of the red, and know what the two beams did and how to counter them or Valindra's casket/summoning undead phase (shes often dead before this even starts, but if she isn't, you can ignore it), or most of the red areas of Lostmauth fight (except the red circles for the spikes that fall in the middle, those still hurt). Or in ECC, you used to have to move the boss out of the fire, and use the barrel at the right time. I was there a few months ago, and I was moving around a lot to avoid the fire, and my group got annoyed at me. Just stand and fight in the fire, they said. And low and behold, they were right, I could totally ignore it. I guess I am and old school noob, not knowing now easy that fight had got. There are a few other exceptions, like Marrowslakes immunity), but that same group that can waltz through some REDs will get their HAMSTER handed to them in FBI. The difference between 10k and 16k+ il makes it impossible to fix this. Some more difficulty options seem the only way I can think of.

adinosii

Do not do RED with random people. Create a "premade" party and queue up with your friends.

Problem solved.

hercules125

Yeah, REDs can sometimes be a hassle. They need to do one of several things, either:
1. Create different tiers of the same dungeon for different IL ranges, and adjust the rewards accordingly.
2. Separate the existing dungeons into several levels of difficulty and adjust the RED algorithm to put people into the appropriate tier based on their IL.
3. Create a *real* robust LFG system where people can designate what they want to do and group leaders have a gui where they can search for and pick up people.

Beyond this, I really wish they'd loosen up the rules on who can queue for RED in premade groups, instead of forcing you to have 1 tank, 1 healer, 3 dps.

wintersmoke

rikitaki said:

Well, to be honest I think it was evil thing to do to bind T1+T2+T3... dungeons together. And the bundle called random epic dungeon puts a lot of players into a tight spot - they have to choose if the RAD is worth the frustration. (assuming they even unlocked all the requirements...)
For me is the answer easy: It is not worth the effort. Since the change I avoid running random epic dungeons if there is not pre-made group that can take FBI without issues. Which means I don't actively seek epic dungeons anymore. (I still want the RAD so I go for the skirmishes instead. Even the Prophecy of madness is better roll then MSP - well, it is a tight choice... )
Anyway, the best source for RAD is now baby dungeons, so that is what many 16k IL players run nowadays... (yep, funny, as screaming does not help)

But still: I do feel like any rumble on IL requirements is not well placed here. Well balanced party mostly can do any dungeons on the IL that is claimed - but it might take ages and a lot of suffering.

I stopped doing randoms & get most of my AD from the campaign weeklies 0,o