It's always nice to see how people prefer to defend a no-skill broken mechanic instead of making real efforts to ask for a proper rework. I've rarely seen any TR getting vocal about a proper rework, but i've seen them getting vocal a lot of times when it was to defend some broken mechanic against a nerf request. Looking at the current TR situation (damage coming mainly from a passive piercing mechanic), i should see tons of topics asking for a proper TR rework to make the class work properly in both PvP and PvE, and get rid of a no-skill mechanic like piercing SoD monster procs. Instead, i see them only coming out to defend it from the next nerf topic. Or to say that in PvE they need more damage, not saying anything about how broken they are in PvP. TRs are like this because so far the players did not care about real improvements to the class. They only wanted the class to stay powerful, no matter the way. Here and there they write "yeah TR needs a rework, but the devs won't do it so we want to keep our no-skill piercing damage procs". If they cared about fun gameplay and balance, they would flood the TR section and PvP section with requests for a real rework of the class. Instead, they stay silent (unless it is to defend piercing damage or ask for moar PvE damage cause they can't top paingiver at BiS levels).
1
micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
It's always nice to see how people prefer to defend a no-skill broken mechanic instead of making real efforts to ask for a proper rework. I've rarely seen any TR getting vocal about a proper rework, but i've seen them getting vocal a lot of times when it was to defend some broken mechanic against a nerf request.
Looking at the current TR situation (damage coming mainly from a passive piercing mechanic), i should see tons of topics asking for a proper TR rework to make the class work properly in both PvP and PvE, and get rid of a no-skill mechanic like piercing SoD monster procs.
And we suggested to make it pre-mitigation non piercing. And when SE was used we suggested to cap it.
Where are your suggestion for proper class rework to make the class work properly in both
Instead, i see them only coming out to defend it from the next nerf topic. Or to say that in PvE they need more damage, not saying anything about how broken they are in PvP.
1. Because most of those nerfs lead to PvE nerfs. 2. No one cares about PvP. It's dead. What there is to say about it?
They only wanted the class to stay powerful, no matter the way. Here and there they write "yeah TR needs a rework, but the devs won't do it so we want to keep our no-skill piercing damage procs".
I love the mind reading, can you do other party tricks? Like make elephants disappear?
Who is that they? Because I don't know TRs who PvP and I know a lot of TRs. And why should anyone flood the PvP section? PvP is a wasteland, a waste of time, and a waste of multiple other things.
(unless it is to defend piercing damage or ask for moar PvE damage cause they can't top paingiver at BiS levels).
Well, TR is brainless class with brainless mechanics no? So how about you give it a try. It's so easy, anyone can do it. Easiest learning curve in the game, and doesn't take gear, perfect to top that paingiver. Go for it.
PS: SoD was already changed to post mitigation. Meaning it's not piercing in the same sense anymore... You will get damage calculated after your reductions and defense of the original hit.
Post edited by micky1p00 on
3
demonmongerMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,350Arc User
- 4 topics in years, all coming from the same guy...it's exactly what i mean. I've been on these forums for years. I've read a ton of threads from TRs about PvP, and i see they are very vocal usually when someone brings up the piercing damage issue. Yet, about rework/ rebalance for the class i see 4 threads from the same guy. In the PvP section i've rarely seen some TR posting about ideas on how to make TR fun and balanced in PvP. It's been all about "we're not that strong/ we need piercing damage/ permastealth/exc...) so far. Also, threads are, respectively: 19 pages, 1 page, 3 pages, 4 pages. Shows how little interest the TR players have for a rework... Considering how the class has been ruined (in my opinion) in these 5 years, i should see way more threads coming from a moltitude of players...
- I've experessed my thoughts multiple times, about not only TR, but combat in NW in general, in these 5 years. I've given up in the last months because, basically, when people talk about stuff like this, people get all angry thinking they are trying to nerf their class. Dodge and aim/time attacks should be king and absolute, i've written it multiple times. Stuff that ignore basic mechanics takes away fun and balance. Big damage attacks should be difficult to land (high risk, high reward). Instead, some classes have been changed to give a high reward with no risk. I will make an example: HRs archer PvP build that surfaced in mod 13. It's a high risk, high reward build. You deal a ton of burst, kill tanks, but you're easy to kill. You must be crafty, use tactics, and still you kill a lot but you die a lot. It's how balance should work. Instead, players in PvP want to kill a lot and never die (reason why so many PvP FOTM players are TRs in the last modules). And in fact, if you go read the reactions to said HR build, they are all the same: anger. People getting killed by a glass cannon HR in PvP get angry, insult you, and troll you. Because it's unecceptable for them to get killed (BiS players with broken classes expecially). I also play multiple classes. GWF (main, in your guild, 5 years old toon), HR (second toon), SW (third toon), DC, TR, GF (PvE only). I also played CW in PvP a lot in the past. I also wrote to you one time because i wanted to talk about TR in PvE, to understand better it's mechanics. But i have some experience in PvP too with my TR and a ton of experience in PvP against them since 2013. They've always been one of the hardest classes to kill, and depending on the mods they could either kill a lot or kill nothing (they went from killing a lot and almost never die, to never die and kill nothing, to almost never die and instakill through piercing damage...). What i would like to see for all classes in the same we see with HR PvP archer glass cannon builds. The old mod 3 mantra when the OP class were GWFs: you can either deal a lot of damage or survive a lot, not both. This was completely forgotten after GWF nerf in mod4. After that, some classes got pretty much the best of both worlds. Some got more, some got less. So i can assure you i gave my contribution in these discussions.
- PvP is dead because cryptic killed the balance and introduced nonsense mechanics and items in PvP, and did nothing to prevent pugstomping. PvP could be some alternative fun to add variety to the game (icewind open PvP was a good idea), but it was simply ruined by poor dev choices. I know there's a part of players who do not care about PvP at all. That's their opinion. But to be honest, players who like to play PvP here and there, or even a lot, should be taken into account too.
- PvE and PvP can be balanced. We already have powers and boons that work differently in PvE and PvP. So it's totally possible to balance TRs for PvE and PvP, and make them more fun. It's just that the devs saw there was no interest, and so it was not a priority for them.
NW has a potentially fun action combat system. Time attacks, aim, and dodge. With time, this was lost (and was not perfect in 2013 too, but still a lot better than now). Now some classes can spam dodges, pierce defenses (it's easier to take down a GWF than a TR in PvP, at same iLvL...), spam dailies, pierce shift mechanics (GWF sprint can be timed perfectly against an enemy attacking you, and you still take a lot of damage...), be immortal while dealing damage, chain CC while one-rotating enemies exc...And the apex of such nonsense, sadly, was stuff like classes oneshotting people with piercing damage (HRs, TRs), or classes being immortal while dealing tons of damage or still enough damage to kill the enemy.
I don't play PvP anymore except some matches with my HR because at least that build is fun to play. But in PvE too, i'd like to see more action and less no-skill, passive stuff. I don't see players being vocal about this. BTW, i already play a PvE TR and i'm developing it, slowly. Slowly because playing 6 classes is not easy and you can't have deep knowledge about them all. At least i play multiple classes, develop them and ask other players to share some knowledge. How many players do that? Not many.
Same way, not many players are interested in real reworks and real balance, or the removal of no-skill mechanics.
1
micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
edited June 2018
1. Same guy posted, yet look who is signed on the posts, there is credit for multiple people.We didn't spam like horde of monkeys, but sat, discussed, now have the largest class discord, and then a single person posted what can be a single coherent post instead of what usually goes around.... And obviously I wasn't looking for the entire forum, but just the easiest way to link some threads.
2. So it's dead. PvP can be many thing, but it's not, and will never be a significant aspect of the game. It's not "part of players" are not interested in PvP, it's the majority don't give a "f" about it. And even those that did, at the top level, either PvEing, or quit, or just trolling in discords. Take into account whatever and whoever, but don't throw the "Where are the TRs that will flood the forums". The only massive flooding of posts that I want to organize in this subject is the complete removal of PvP. If the devs can't separate the skill effects in PvE and PvP and somehow those 'balances' always end up HAMSTER us in PvE. For all I care, lets save resources and heartache, remove it and be done with it.
3. What's is the less no-skill passive stuff? The kicks in MSP, cradle push pull?
4. I didn't want to go into personal play style in that aspect, but since you mentioned it, I don't see how having multiple low geared chars without really playing end-game is really understanding, actually even further, that "moar paingiver" is the main thing that drives improvement and class understanding and synergy in PvE, if you don't care about it, what prevents you from just slotting random skills and be carried.
Also about that "not many", check the people around you, most if not all play multiple classes in end-game. Some playing all of them, and know them very well. So where is that assertion comes from? From pugs? From IL channels ?
At the end, everyone can ask for whatever they want, but I don't owe anyone of my time to come and "flood the forums" asking for changes that not only not relevant to me, but also, as many others, I don't know well enough the consequences of any proposal. More so to do it for a change that was already done, and already on preview for over a month... And when the original change was made, at the same day we have warned about the repercussions to PvP. And PMs were sent.
- Multiple people, yet a small part of the whole TR community and as i mentioned, the threads are 19 pages, 1 page, 3 pages, 4 pages. Few people replied, few people posted on the matter. Shows, to me, a lack of interest from the class, for a real rework. In PvP for sure, i didn't see TRs trying to ask for their class to be balanced. It was all about keeping what gives them more survivability than most other classes since 2013, and get the damage to kill the enemies fast.
- If you don't care about PvP amd want it removed, why are you in the PvP section? Just wondering. Btw, in the past PvP was populated, can't say how much compared to PvE, but it was played a lot. There were a lot of big PvP guilds, and the only NCL event we got, was played by a ton of people. You hate PvP, that's ok, But it's a fact that it it's not the whole community that hates PvP itself. People stopped playing it when it became too unbalanced and un-fun, with no real rewards. But again, i wonder why you answer me in the PvP section if you want PvP removed from the game...
- It's a PvP discussion. I'm not talking about dungeons. The no-skill stuff is, for example, from mod 1 to mod 13: regeneration builds that made GWFs immortal in PvP, old CW shield that made them immortal, piercing SE from TRs that could kill GWFs and SWs in 1 hit with no effort, dailies spam in PvP, permastealth in PvP or stealth with ITC and dodge spam, old mod 3 GWF roar+takedown+IBS that could pierce dodges, immortal DCs and paladins in PvP, mechanics that ignore the basics of dodging, timing dodges, aiming your attacks (all high damage attacks should miss if the player fails to aim correctly) and timing your attacks (hitting a shift mechanic should always result in a punishment. Right now, some shift mechanics are literally pierced through by attacks).
- the game is played at multiple levels, not just at BiS levels or end game. To be honest, i don't see that many players that have the time and wealth to grow multiple or all classes to end-game level (all boons, BiS gear exc...), compared to the whole NW population. Sure, there are players who can afford to make multiple BiS toons. Are they the majority? No. Most alts i see are low geared or mid geared, some well geared, but for sure, not end-game BiS toons.
- when i say "flood the forums" i mean that we've been modules in PvP where piercing damage was king and made some classes boring and easy to play, yet i didn't see many players simply asking the devs to make their class more proactive, with damage coming from encounters and not from passive procs or piercing mechanics, or to simply support the idea that you can either deal a lot of damage or survive a lot. Players in PvP simply want both. And again, i didn't see TRs being vocal about their class real rework, with piercing damage transforming it in a "close your eyes and press the button to deal damage". I'm, again, talking about PvP since we are in a PvP section. When the original change was made i know that TRs who test on preview, sent a warning to the devs. But if the rest of the players seem to be happy about the change or even jump to play the class in PvP as the FOTM class, to get easy kills and play god in PvP, the devs will never change anything. They change something when the community moves "en masse".
I really don't get all the angry replies, since i didn't say anything weird: talking about the whole community, most players, in this case TR players (but can say the same about other classes too), simply don't care about mechanics. They simply want their class to be "strong", no matter how.
Oh yeah, and sorry if i don't have the time and money to bring 6 toons at 14-15-16k+. I'm sure most players can do that, and the game is full of such players, i just fail to see them. I'm just a lowly 14k GWF with some 12k alts, i can't understand how the game works or express an opinion on gameplay.
@demonmonger: that's about AS brutal as current PvP TR. GFs have been discussed in PvP also. And guess what. Every time the answer is the same: "the class is not overpowered, you are a bad player asking for a nerf, learn to play". It's the same, every time someone talks about something that is too powerful in PvP. So we have TRs that need SoD piercing damage, GFs that need the monster damage coupled with CC chain and a shield with 80% DR on a different layer, exc...
The old "you can't have the best of both worlds" is all in the past. I've read it a lot during module 3. After that, nothing.
0
micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
- Multiple people, yet a small part of the whole TR community and as i mentioned, the threads are 19 pages, 1 page, 3 pages, 4 pages. Few people replied, few people posted on the matter. Shows, to me, a lack of interest from the class, for a real rework. In PvP for sure, i didn't see TRs trying to ask for their class to be balanced. It was all about keeping what gives them more survivability than most other classes since 2013, and get the damage to kill the enemies fast.
Where are the threads from GWF to nerf GWF, from HR to nerf HRs, etc....
I love this "logic falicy"
No TR posted -> It's not that "No one interested in PvP" No TR posted -> It's not that "PvP is simply dead" No. No TR posted must mean that TRs not interested in class balance.
Where your hundreds of posts to buff TR in PvE when it was the lousiest class to play and most quit playing it? Whey the GWFs where not shouting on streams that TR and SW need buffs? Were are the reddit posts ? One lousy post in thread of hundreds Just shows that GWFs not interested in real class balance in PvE but only to maintain their class superiority in paingiver. ( /s )
- If you don't care about PvP amd want it removed, why are you in the PvP section? Just wondering. Btw, in the past PvP was populated, can't say how much compared to PvE, but it was played a lot. There were a lot of big PvP guilds, and the only NCL event we got, was played by a ton of people. You hate PvP, that's ok, But it's a fact that it it's not the whole community that hates PvP itself. People stopped playing it when it became too unbalanced and un-fun, with no real rewards. But again, i wonder why you answer me in the PvP section if you want PvP removed from the game...
- It's a PvP discussion. I'm not talking about dungeons. The no-skill stuff is, for example, from mod 1 to mod 13: regeneration builds ....snip...., aiming your attacks (all high damage attacks should miss if the player fails to aim correctly) and timing your attacks (hitting a shift mechanic should always result in a punishment. Right now, some shift mechanics are literally pierced through by attacks).
Yes, I've tried to use analogy, to connect to the flood, but it wasn't the best or worked.
- the game is played at multiple levels, not just at BiS levels or end game. To be honest, i don't see that many players that have the time and wealth to grow multiple or all classes to end-game level (all boons, BiS gear exc...), compared to the whole NW population. Sure, there are players who can afford to make multiple BiS toons. Are they the majority? No. Most alts i see are low geared or mid geared, some well geared, but for sure, not end-game BiS toons.
First of all end-game viable and BiS are not the same.
Second I'm not sure what the majority or not majority has to do with it? Ofc new player that starts the game wont have end-game viable alts. IIRC, (sorry don't have the time to re-read now) this was in context of your alts, so we compare to people who play the game for at least multiple years.
The guild I'm member of, 90% have at least 2 end-game viable chars, more than half 3. So are most players who are not new.
- when i say "flood the forums" i mean that we've been modules in PvP where piercing damage was king and made some classes boring and easy to play, yet i didn't see many players simply asking the devs to make their class more proactive, with damage coming from encounters and not from passive procs or piercing mechanics, or to simply support the idea that you can either deal a lot of damage or survive a lot. Players in PvP simply want both.
Again, what PvP community exactly? The handful that running around with drains and the multi proccing armor (sorry, forgot the name, Manticore Mantle ?)
There is no PvP community... Check the 2 PvP discords...
I can go on and on about the difference in other games or even the Russian server which actually has PvP community, organized tournaments, and streams. But at the end, it's irrelevant.
And again, i didn't see TRs being vocal about their class real rework, with piercing damage transforming it in a "close your eyes and press the button to deal damage". I'm, again, talking about PvP since we are in a PvP section. When the original change was made i know that TRs who test on preview, sent a warning to the devs. But if the rest of the players seem to be happy about the change or even jump to play the class in PvP as the FOTM class, to get easy kills and play god in PvP, the devs will never change anything. They change something when the community moves "en masse".
If someone choose to pick the FOTM class to play, what you want out of TRs (Those that main TRs regardless of FOTM)? Post your grievances about people who play FOTM and do not care about balance. Or grievances about Devs who do not do changes in a timely fashion. A subject I've posted about many times, that PvP balance should be much more frequent and subtle.
Do not accuse the TR community of "not wanting that or that".
I really don't get all the angry replies, since i didn't say anything weird: talking about the whole community, most players, in this case TR players (but can say the same about other classes too), simply don't care about mechanics. They simply want their class to be "strong", no matter how.
You throw accusations, about the entire TR community, with added "moar paingiver" addon for the PvE side, and you wonder why it's not all flowers and sunshine?
Don't generalize, especially when you have nothing to back it up.
TRs are not interested in X. Is not the same as "most players in PvP are not interested in X"
The first will get me to post "rainbows and unicorns", the second can be true, or can be not, I don't know if it's the majority or not, but sounds plausible enough.
Oh yeah, and sorry if i don't have the time and money to bring 6 toons at 14-15-16k+. I'm sure most players can do that, and the game is full of such players, i just fail to see them.
I don't know if most can or can't. Nor anyone asks you too, the point is that 12k alt on a class doesn't really bring class understanding.
How I see it, there are two main things that bring understanding of a class:
1. Trying to get better, if it's more paingiver, faster run, or just finish a dungeon unfinishable before or with weaker and weaker group. 2. Experience - Both to improve the mechanical skill and to validate or invalidate the ideas or things we read that come from thinking how to improve.
This is valid for both PvP and PvE. So in PvE it will be to actually run stuff and try to bash things harder (for GWF).
I'm just a lowly 14k GWF with some 12k alts, i can't understand how the game works or express an opinion on gameplay.
You can be 18k and not really do the above, and for some it's ok, they enjoy to do their stuff in the game, and it's completely fine. The issue is that the game play, and what you can and can't do with a class is different depending on the content, the party and the gear. I can't say about PvP but in PvE the play style for some classes is vastly different at 12k and at 'BiS' end-game party.
As I've said, I didn't want to go into that, but my comment about
Slowly because playing 6 classes is not easy and you can't have deep knowledge about them all. At least i play multiple classes, develop them and ask other players to share some knowledge. How many players do that? Not many.
Is that you will not have deep knowledge this way. You will have if you take only few of those and actually progress them, as in running stuff, and 'chasing paingiver' (or actually efficiency). Dailies wont bring class understanding.
About the other thing, "How many players do that? Not many." "and the game is full of such players, i just fail to see them"
That must be by choice, because I see players with multiple end-game chars every time I login, with very good understanding of the classes. So how about open your eyes, and talk to people (And I'm actually not trying insult here, or angry, on the contrary), join stuff and not just do dailies. (Ofc I mean in PvE, but as I've said, IMO PvP is so dead, nothing can resurrect it now)
Bottom line, while I do understand that you mean PvP subset of the game, the generalization to "TR community do not care about balance" us uncalled for. The FOTM chasers are not the TR community. The PvP subset (what there is of it) is not the TR community. The actual TR community warned about SoD back then. The TR community warned about SoD in PvE now and suggested better alternatives. So please do not clump everyone together.
- Multiple people, yet a small part of the whole TR community and as i mentioned, the threads are 19 pages, 1 page, 3 pages, 4 pages. Few people replied, few people posted on the matter. Shows, to me, a lack of interest from the class, for a real rework. In PvP for sure, i didn't see TRs trying to ask for their class to be balanced. It was all about keeping what gives them more survivability than most other classes since 2013, and get the damage to kill the enemies fast.
- If you don't care about PvP amd want it removed, why are you in the PvP section? Just wondering. Btw, in the past PvP was populated, can't say how much compared to PvE, but it was played a lot. There were a lot of big PvP guilds, and the only NCL event we got, was played by a ton of people. You hate PvP, that's ok, But it's a fact that it it's not the whole community that hates PvP itself. People stopped playing it when it became too unbalanced and un-fun, with no real rewards. But again, i wonder why you answer me in the PvP section if you want PvP removed from the game...
- It's a PvP discussion. I'm not talking about dungeons. The no-skill stuff is, for example, from mod 1 to mod 13: regeneration builds that made GWFs immortal in PvP, old CW shield that made them immortal, piercing SE from TRs that could kill GWFs and SWs in 1 hit with no effort, dailies spam in PvP, permastealth in PvP or stealth with ITC and dodge spam, old mod 3 GWF roar+takedown+IBS that could pierce dodges, immortal DCs and paladins in PvP, mechanics that ignore the basics of dodging, timing dodges, aiming your attacks (all high damage attacks should miss if the player fails to aim correctly) and timing your attacks (hitting a shift mechanic should always result in a punishment. Right now, some shift mechanics are literally pierced through by attacks).
- the game is played at multiple levels, not just at BiS levels or end game. To be honest, i don't see that many players that have the time and wealth to grow multiple or all classes to end-game level (all boons, BiS gear exc...), compared to the whole NW population. Sure, there are players who can afford to make multiple BiS toons. Are they the majority? No. Most alts i see are low geared or mid geared, some well geared, but for sure, not end-game BiS toons.
- when i say "flood the forums" i mean that we've been modules in PvP where piercing damage was king and made some classes boring and easy to play, yet i didn't see many players simply asking the devs to make their class more proactive, with damage coming from encounters and not from passive procs or piercing mechanics, or to simply support the idea that you can either deal a lot of damage or survive a lot. Players in PvP simply want both. And again, i didn't see TRs being vocal about their class real rework, with piercing damage transforming it in a "close your eyes and press the button to deal damage". I'm, again, talking about PvP since we are in a PvP section. When the original change was made i know that TRs who test on preview, sent a warning to the devs. But if the rest of the players seem to be happy about the change or even jump to play the class in PvP as the FOTM class, to get easy kills and play god in PvP, the devs will never change anything. They change something when the community moves "en masse".
I really don't get all the angry replies, since i didn't say anything weird: talking about the whole community, most players, in this case TR players (but can say the same about other classes too), simply don't care about mechanics. They simply want their class to be "strong", no matter how.
Oh yeah, and sorry if i don't have the time and money to bring 6 toons at 14-15-16k+. I'm sure most players can do that, and the game is full of such players, i just fail to see them. I'm just a lowly 14k GWF with some 12k alts, i can't understand how the game works or express an opinion on gameplay.
@demonmonger: that's about AS brutal as current PvP TR. GFs have been discussed in PvP also. And guess what. Every time the answer is the same: "the class is not overpowered, you are a bad player asking for a nerf, learn to play". It's the same, every time someone talks about something that is too powerful in PvP. So we have TRs that need SoD piercing damage, GFs that need the monster damage coupled with CC chain and a shield with 80% DR on a different layer, exc...
The old "you can't have the best of both worlds" is all in the past. I've read it a lot during module 3. After that, nothing.
Huge wall of text which i did not read. I don't really want to waste my time reading all of this so next time please keep it short.
To you and all other whining, crying players who says tr are a problem in pvp. Please, go make a tr right now and try not to get your azz owned by any class.
If you don't make a tr then stop wasting your tears. We don't want or need your waterfall here.
This thread needs to be closed. I have no problem with a TR other than the current issue, unmitigated damage. As soon as that is fixed, like it was for the Combat HR, it will solve a lot of the whining here in this thread.
Huge wall of text which i did not read. I don't really want to waste my time reading all of this so next time please keep it short.
To you and all other whining, crying players who says tr are a problem in pvp. Please, go make a tr right now and try not to get your azz owned by any class.
If you don't make a tr then stop wasting your tears. We don't want or need your waterfall here.
Too bad you didn't read. Or you'd know i play a TR too and i didn't write anything like what you wrote above (all your blabbering about whining and someone saying TRs are a problem in PvP, none of which was in my post).
I suggest you to read what you quote, or avoid posting random stuff that makes you look hummm...not exactly smart.
Ignoring all the massive walls of texts, the issue is/remains that TRs unmitigated damage needs fixed. However, in this particular thread, there are some here with a TR against the idea of the fix. people love exploiting the broken mechanic. Then said mechanic gets fixed and now people freak. HRs complained when it was them back in mod 11-ish now you hardly see HRs at least on ps4. Once TR nerf comes through youll hardly see TRs.
When a class has no counter class except it´s own and are nr1 at killing and at the same time nr1 on best defence something is clearly wrong.
No class comes near the survivability of a Tr, no class comes near the cc immunity of a Tr and no class can kill as easy as the Tr class even if Gf sure can rival for some classes.
Tr can ofc be the best at killing at least some clase game best dodges best deflect by far is ofc not ok.
Tr:s was never ment to reach 25+recovery wses as they indeed are a assassin class but at the same time being more or less immortal with the best cc immunity in thhen these class mechanics was made long time ago. Being able to spam encounters and dailies back to back has made the class wreck havoc in pvp.
Allowing ANYTHING that ignores all defence mechanics in pvp is something we need to blame the devs for it says itself that something like that is going to become broken in a pvp setting.
Hr has been mentioned as Archer path deadly but easy to kill if Tr want to keep being deadly they need to accept that their survivability needs to be cut down and cut down on a massive basis.
But in any case ANY source of damage that can not be avoided like piercing has to go as well as most braindead high damage auto hit/cc items/powers like mane curce rings etc.
Side note: Finalfantasyac7 lives in a parallel universe where normal rules do not apply, according to him Tr need more damage and are easy kill and the most other classes need to be nerfed. It is pointless to engage in any conversation with him as he lives in a different world then the rest of us )))
When a class has no counter class except it´s own and are nr1 at killing and at the same time nr1 on best defence something is clearly wrong.
No class comes near the survivability of a Tr, no class comes near the cc immunity of a Tr and no class can kill as easy as the Tr class even if Gf sure can rival for some classes.
Tr can ofc be the best at killing at least some clase game best dodges best deflect by far is ofc not ok.
Tr:s was never ment to reach 25+recovery wses as they indeed are a assassin class but at the same time being more or less immortal with the best cc immunity in thhen these class mechanics was made long time ago. Being able to spam encounters and dailies back to back has made the class wreck havoc in pvp.
Allowing ANYTHING that ignores all defence mechanics in pvp is something we need to blame the devs for it says itself that something like that is going to become broken in a pvp setting.
Hr has been mentioned as Archer path deadly but easy to kill if Tr want to keep being deadly they need to accept that their survivability needs to be cut down and cut down on a massive basis.
But in any case ANY source of damage that can not be avoided like piercing has to go as well as most braindead high damage auto hit/cc items/powers like mane curce rings etc.
Side note: Finalfantasyac7 lives in a parallel universe where normal rules do not apply, according to him Tr need more damage and are easy kill and the most other classes need to be nerfed. It is pointless to engage in any conversation with him as he lives in a different world then the rest of us )))
Stop smoking black mushrooms. I never said tr's need more damage or buffs. I just said people like you should stop crying about tr's. The more you ask for nerfs, the more things get broken. Everytime a tr gets a nerf, they always become better and more broken and now thanx to the broken items such as manticore, it will be easier to troll in pvp so please stop whining and crying, we don't want your waterfall here.
Comments
TRs are like this because so far the players did not care about real improvements to the class. They only wanted the class to stay powerful, no matter the way. Here and there they write "yeah TR needs a rework, but the devs won't do it so we want to keep our no-skill piercing damage procs".
If they cared about fun gameplay and balance, they would flood the TR section and PvP section with requests for a real rework of the class. Instead, they stay silent (unless it is to defend piercing damage or ask for moar PvE damage cause they can't top paingiver at BiS levels).
There no threads about TR rework? No?
https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1229772/trickster-rogue-class-balance-suggestions/p1
https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1231317/tr-compiled-balance-suggestions
https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1233289/three-things-to-help-rebalance-trs/p1
https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1236569/trickster-rogue-class-rework/p1
When we spammed the streams and everywhere about rework, everyone rolled their eyes... And now this...
Nope.. And we suggested to make it pre-mitigation non piercing.
And when SE was used we suggested to cap it.
Where are your suggestion for proper class rework to make the class work properly in both 1. Because most of those nerfs lead to PvE nerfs.
2. No one cares about PvP. It's dead. What there is to say about it? Really?
I guess those threads linked above are imagination.
And this is fiction:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/10Dwtx9Or-UOhrZOKwOWz8_O_Yzu_mX3Q5xE-QX6OkGA/edit I love the mind reading, can you do other party tricks? Like make elephants disappear?
Except some minority, no one who played any serious PvP games, or value their time, or have any sense, cares about PvP in NW. Who is that they? Because I don't know TRs who PvP and I know a lot of TRs.
And why should anyone flood the PvP section? PvP is a wasteland, a waste of time, and a waste of multiple other things. Well, TR is brainless class with brainless mechanics no? So how about you give it a try. It's so easy, anyone can do it.
Easiest learning curve in the game, and doesn't take gear, perfect to top that paingiver. Go for it.
PS: SoD was already changed to post mitigation. Meaning it's not piercing in the same sense anymore... You will get damage calculated after your reductions and defense of the original hit.
but this is way more brutal
- 4 topics in years, all coming from the same guy...it's exactly what i mean. I've been on these forums for years. I've read a ton of threads from TRs about PvP, and i see they are very vocal usually when someone brings up the piercing damage issue. Yet, about rework/ rebalance for the class i see 4 threads from the same guy. In the PvP section i've rarely seen some TR posting about ideas on how to make TR fun and balanced in PvP. It's been all about "we're not that strong/ we need piercing damage/ permastealth/exc...) so far. Also, threads are, respectively: 19 pages, 1 page, 3 pages, 4 pages. Shows how little interest the TR players have for a rework...
Considering how the class has been ruined (in my opinion) in these 5 years, i should see way more threads coming from a moltitude of players...
- I've experessed my thoughts multiple times, about not only TR, but combat in NW in general, in these 5 years. I've given up in the last months because, basically, when people talk about stuff like this, people get all angry thinking they are trying to nerf their class. Dodge and aim/time attacks should be king and absolute, i've written it multiple times. Stuff that ignore basic mechanics takes away fun and balance. Big damage attacks should be difficult to land (high risk, high reward). Instead, some classes have been changed to give a high reward with no risk. I will make an example: HRs archer PvP build that surfaced in mod 13. It's a high risk, high reward build. You deal a ton of burst, kill tanks, but you're easy to kill. You must be crafty, use tactics, and still you kill a lot but you die a lot. It's how balance should work. Instead, players in PvP want to kill a lot and never die (reason why so many PvP FOTM players are TRs in the last modules). And in fact, if you go read the reactions to said HR build, they are all the same: anger. People getting killed by a glass cannon HR in PvP get angry, insult you, and troll you. Because it's unecceptable for them to get killed (BiS players with broken classes expecially). I also play multiple classes. GWF (main, in your guild, 5 years old toon), HR (second toon), SW (third toon), DC, TR, GF (PvE only). I also played CW in PvP a lot in the past. I also wrote to you one time because i wanted to talk about TR in PvE, to understand better it's mechanics. But i have some experience in PvP too with my TR and a ton of experience in PvP against them since 2013. They've always been one of the hardest classes to kill, and depending on the mods they could either kill a lot or kill nothing (they went from killing a lot and almost never die, to never die and kill nothing, to almost never die and instakill through piercing damage...).
What i would like to see for all classes in the same we see with HR PvP archer glass cannon builds. The old mod 3 mantra when the OP class were GWFs: you can either deal a lot of damage or survive a lot, not both. This was completely forgotten after GWF nerf in mod4. After that, some classes got pretty much the best of both worlds. Some got more, some got less.
So i can assure you i gave my contribution in these discussions.
- PvP is dead because cryptic killed the balance and introduced nonsense mechanics and items in PvP, and did nothing to prevent pugstomping. PvP could be some alternative fun to add variety to the game (icewind open PvP was a good idea), but it was simply ruined by poor dev choices. I know there's a part of players who do not care about PvP at all. That's their opinion. But to be honest, players who like to play PvP here and there, or even a lot, should be taken into account too.
- PvE and PvP can be balanced. We already have powers and boons that work differently in PvE and PvP. So it's totally possible to balance TRs for PvE and PvP, and make them more fun. It's just that the devs saw there was no interest, and so it was not a priority for them.
NW has a potentially fun action combat system. Time attacks, aim, and dodge. With time, this was lost (and was not perfect in 2013 too, but still a lot better than now). Now some classes can spam dodges, pierce defenses (it's easier to take down a GWF than a TR in PvP, at same iLvL...), spam dailies, pierce shift mechanics (GWF sprint can be timed perfectly against an enemy attacking you, and you still take a lot of damage...), be immortal while dealing damage, chain CC while one-rotating enemies exc...And the apex of such nonsense, sadly, was stuff like classes oneshotting people with piercing damage (HRs, TRs), or classes being immortal while dealing tons of damage or still enough damage to kill the enemy.
I don't play PvP anymore except some matches with my HR because at least that build is fun to play. But in PvE too, i'd like to see more action and less no-skill, passive stuff. I don't see players being vocal about this.
BTW, i already play a PvE TR and i'm developing it, slowly. Slowly because playing 6 classes is not easy and you can't have deep knowledge about them all. At least i play multiple classes, develop them and ask other players to share some knowledge. How many players do that? Not many.
Same way, not many players are interested in real reworks and real balance, or the removal of no-skill mechanics.
And obviously I wasn't looking for the entire forum, but just the easiest way to link some threads.
2. So it's dead. PvP can be many thing, but it's not, and will never be a significant aspect of the game. It's not "part of players" are not interested in PvP, it's the majority don't give a "f" about it. And even those that did, at the top level, either PvEing, or quit, or just trolling in discords.
Take into account whatever and whoever, but don't throw the "Where are the TRs that will flood the forums". The only massive flooding of posts that I want to organize in this subject is the complete removal of PvP. If the devs can't separate the skill effects in PvE and PvP and somehow those 'balances' always end up HAMSTER us in PvE. For all I care, lets save resources and heartache, remove it and be done with it.
3. What's is the less no-skill passive stuff? The kicks in MSP, cradle push pull?
4. I didn't want to go into personal play style in that aspect, but since you mentioned it, I don't see how having multiple low geared chars without really playing end-game is really understanding, actually even further, that "moar paingiver" is the main thing that drives improvement and class understanding and synergy in PvE, if you don't care about it, what prevents you from just slotting random skills and be carried.
Also about that "not many", check the people around you, most if not all play multiple classes in end-game. Some playing all of them, and know them very well.
So where is that assertion comes from? From pugs? From IL channels ?
At the end, everyone can ask for whatever they want, but I don't owe anyone of my time to come and "flood the forums" asking for changes that not only not relevant to me, but also, as many others, I don't know well enough the consequences of any proposal. More so to do it for a change that was already done, and already on preview for over a month...
And when the original change was made, at the same day we have warned about the repercussions to PvP. And PMs were sent.
- If you don't care about PvP amd want it removed, why are you in the PvP section? Just wondering. Btw, in the past PvP was populated, can't say how much compared to PvE, but it was played a lot. There were a lot of big PvP guilds, and the only NCL event we got, was played by a ton of people. You hate PvP, that's ok, But it's a fact that it it's not the whole community that hates PvP itself. People stopped playing it when it became too unbalanced and un-fun, with no real rewards. But again, i wonder why you answer me in the PvP section if you want PvP removed from the game...
- It's a PvP discussion. I'm not talking about dungeons. The no-skill stuff is, for example, from mod 1 to mod 13: regeneration builds that made GWFs immortal in PvP, old CW shield that made them immortal, piercing SE from TRs that could kill GWFs and SWs in 1 hit with no effort, dailies spam in PvP, permastealth in PvP or stealth with ITC and dodge spam, old mod 3 GWF roar+takedown+IBS that could pierce dodges, immortal DCs and paladins in PvP, mechanics that ignore the basics of dodging, timing dodges, aiming your attacks (all high damage attacks should miss if the player fails to aim correctly) and timing your attacks (hitting a shift mechanic should always result in a punishment. Right now, some shift mechanics are literally pierced through by attacks).
- the game is played at multiple levels, not just at BiS levels or end game. To be honest, i don't see that many players that have the time and wealth to grow multiple or all classes to end-game level (all boons, BiS gear exc...), compared to the whole NW population. Sure, there are players who can afford to make multiple BiS toons. Are they the majority? No. Most alts i see are low geared or mid geared, some well geared, but for sure, not end-game BiS toons.
- when i say "flood the forums" i mean that we've been modules in PvP where piercing damage was king and made some classes boring and easy to play, yet i didn't see many players simply asking the devs to make their class more proactive, with damage coming from encounters and not from passive procs or piercing mechanics, or to simply support the idea that you can either deal a lot of damage or survive a lot. Players in PvP simply want both. And again, i didn't see TRs being vocal about their class real rework, with piercing damage transforming it in a "close your eyes and press the button to deal damage". I'm, again, talking about PvP since we are in a PvP section. When the original change was made i know that TRs who test on preview, sent a warning to the devs. But if the rest of the players seem to be happy about the change or even jump to play the class in PvP as the FOTM class, to get easy kills and play god in PvP, the devs will never change anything. They change something when the community moves "en masse".
I really don't get all the angry replies, since i didn't say anything weird: talking about the whole community, most players, in this case TR players (but can say the same about other classes too), simply don't care about mechanics. They simply want their class to be "strong", no matter how.
Oh yeah, and sorry if i don't have the time and money to bring 6 toons at 14-15-16k+. I'm sure most players can do that, and the game is full of such players, i just fail to see them. I'm just a lowly 14k GWF with some 12k alts, i can't understand how the game works or express an opinion on gameplay.
@demonmonger: that's about AS brutal as current PvP TR. GFs have been discussed in PvP also. And guess what. Every time the answer is the same: "the class is not overpowered, you are a bad player asking for a nerf, learn to play". It's the same, every time someone talks about something that is too powerful in PvP. So we have TRs that need SoD piercing damage, GFs that need the monster damage coupled with CC chain and a shield with 80% DR on a different layer, exc...
The old "you can't have the best of both worlds" is all in the past. I've read it a lot during module 3. After that, nothing.
Considering that TRs were nerfed again and again in PvE....
https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter/#/discussion/1236815/how-many-pve-rouges-are-left
Where are the threads from GWF to nerf GWF, from HR to nerf HRs, etc....
I love this "logic falicy"
No TR posted -> It's not that "No one interested in PvP"
No TR posted -> It's not that "PvP is simply dead"
No. No TR posted must mean that TRs not interested in class balance.
Where your hundreds of posts to buff TR in PvE when it was the lousiest class to play and most quit playing it? Whey the GWFs where not shouting on streams that TR and SW need buffs? Were are the reddit posts ? One lousy post in thread of hundreds Just shows that GWFs not interested in real class balance in PvE but only to maintain their class superiority in paingiver. ( /s ) I read the forums via
https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter/#/discussions
I don't purposefully go into the PvP section, I usually do not reply to PvP threads, but that blanket statement... Yes, I've tried to use analogy, to connect to the flood, but it wasn't the best or worked.
First of all end-game viable and BiS are not the same.
Second I'm not sure what the majority or not majority has to do with it? Ofc new player that starts the game wont have end-game viable alts.
IIRC, (sorry don't have the time to re-read now) this was in context of your alts, so we compare to people who play the game for at least multiple years.
The guild I'm member of, 90% have at least 2 end-game viable chars, more than half 3. So are most players who are not new. Again, what PvP community exactly? The handful that running around with drains and the multi proccing armor (sorry, forgot the name, Manticore Mantle ?)
There is no PvP community... Check the 2 PvP discords...
I can go on and on about the difference in other games or even the Russian server which actually has PvP community, organized tournaments, and streams.
But at the end, it's irrelevant. https://i.imgur.com/D8zYaZl.jpg
If someone choose to pick the FOTM class to play, what you want out of TRs (Those that main TRs regardless of FOTM)? Post your grievances about people who play FOTM and do not care about balance. Or grievances about Devs who do not do changes in a timely fashion. A subject I've posted about many times, that PvP balance should be much more frequent and subtle.
Do not accuse the TR community of "not wanting that or that". You throw accusations, about the entire TR community, with added "moar paingiver" addon for the PvE side, and you wonder why it's not all flowers and sunshine?
Don't generalize, especially when you have nothing to back it up.
TRs are not interested in X. Is not the same as "most players in PvP are not interested in X"
The first will get me to post "rainbows and unicorns", the second can be true, or can be not, I don't know if it's the majority or not, but sounds plausible enough. I don't know if most can or can't.
Nor anyone asks you too, the point is that 12k alt on a class doesn't really bring class understanding.
How I see it, there are two main things that bring understanding of a class:
1. Trying to get better, if it's more paingiver, faster run, or just finish a dungeon unfinishable before or with weaker and weaker group.
2. Experience - Both to improve the mechanical skill and to validate or invalidate the ideas or things we read that come from thinking how to improve.
This is valid for both PvP and PvE.
So in PvE it will be to actually run stuff and try to bash things harder (for GWF). You can be 18k and not really do the above, and for some it's ok, they enjoy to do their stuff in the game, and it's completely fine.
The issue is that the game play, and what you can and can't do with a class is different depending on the content, the party and the gear. I can't say about PvP but in PvE the play style for some classes is vastly different at 12k and at 'BiS' end-game party.
As I've said, I didn't want to go into that, but my comment about
Is that you will not have deep knowledge this way. You will have if you take only few of those and actually progress them, as in running stuff, and 'chasing paingiver' (or actually efficiency). Dailies wont bring class understanding.
About the other thing,
"How many players do that? Not many."
"and the game is full of such players, i just fail to see them"
That must be by choice, because I see players with multiple end-game chars every time I login, with very good understanding of the classes.
So how about open your eyes, and talk to people (And I'm actually not trying insult here, or angry, on the contrary), join stuff and not just do dailies. (Ofc I mean in PvE, but as I've said, IMO PvP is so dead, nothing can resurrect it now)
Bottom line, while I do understand that you mean PvP subset of the game, the generalization to "TR community do not care about balance" us uncalled for. The FOTM chasers are not the TR community. The PvP subset (what there is of it) is not the TR community.
The actual TR community warned about SoD back then. The TR community warned about SoD in PvE now and suggested better alternatives. So please do not clump everyone together.
To you and all other whining, crying players who says tr are a problem in pvp. Please, go make a tr right now and try not to get your azz owned by any class.
If you don't make a tr then stop wasting your tears. We don't want or need your waterfall here.
¨˜ˆ”°¹~•-.„¸ρℓαуιиg иєνєяωιитєя ѕιи¢є 2015¸„.-•~¹°”ˆ˜¨
I suggest you to read what you quote, or avoid posting random stuff that makes you look hummm...not exactly smart.
No class comes near the survivability of a Tr, no class comes near the cc immunity of a Tr and no class can kill as easy as the Tr class even if Gf sure can rival for some classes.
Tr can ofc be the best at killing at least some clase game best dodges best deflect by far is ofc not ok.
Tr:s was never ment to reach 25+recovery wses as they indeed are a assassin class but at the same time being more or less immortal with the best cc immunity in thhen these class mechanics was made long time ago. Being able to spam encounters and dailies back to back has made the class wreck havoc in pvp.
Allowing ANYTHING that ignores all defence mechanics in pvp is something we need to blame the devs for it says itself that something like that is going to become broken in a pvp setting.
Hr has been mentioned as Archer path deadly but easy to kill if Tr want to keep being deadly they need to accept that their survivability needs to be cut down and cut down on a massive basis.
But in any case ANY source of damage that can not be avoided like piercing has to go as well as most braindead high damage auto hit/cc items/powers like mane curce rings etc.
Side note:
Finalfantasyac7 lives in a parallel universe where normal rules do not apply, according to him Tr need more damage and are easy kill and the most other classes need to be nerfed.
It is pointless to engage in any conversation with him as he lives in a different world then the rest of us )))
¨˜ˆ”°¹~•-.„¸ρℓαуιиg иєνєяωιитєя ѕιи¢є 2015¸„.-•~¹°”ˆ˜¨