So, you didn't have any doubts that Chultan Tiger's going to last and not get a nerf in approx 2-3 months? How? Genually curious - how? I sure did. And I don't think that comparison does it justice. Nevermind that story
This is more interesting : GWF and GF are terribly shaped and pretty much forced into specific builds without much freedom to explore. I reckon that they will eventually see some proper fix and a look into the class. I still remember the time when nobody would take a GF tank or otherwise in many previous mods. But GWF and GF aren't as popular as support classes in my opinion and those are, as of this moment, 2 x DC 1 x Pally.
The calculation is rather simple, they give too much benefits to the party, and this is one of the major mistakes that's still making it's ripple ever since MOD6 got introduced and people were forced, literally, to play with a tank and a healer. And I recall that as a terrible time for Neverwinter.
True Neutral
Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
0
putzboy78Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,950Arc User
GWF and GF have been extremely powerful and popular for years without significant nerfs, so I’m not sure I’m onboard with this line of thought.
Both of those classes were useless from mod 1 until mod 6 which was almost 2 years. In fact the gwf was useless before module 1 so it has spent at least two years of its game time as third class citizens. And GF didn't come around until later because the OP was taking all the tank jobs except when the GF/OP reflect damage/bubble combo was being exploited.
Just because things have been viable for awhile, doesn't mean it has always been that way. For well over two years CW was the king of paingiver and tr was the king of single target dps.
GWF was competitive with the then-overpowered CW back when I last played nearly 4 years ago.
GF was not considered necessary for PvE, but it and GWF were absolute monsters in PvP.
The point is that just because a certain class, spec, or item has it good does not guarantee that it will make Cryptic’s somewhat arbitrary-seeming nerf list.
As for the tiger, I explained why it’s not game-breaking. Again, it’s good, but it’s nothing that needs a nerf. Cryptic would be better off finding ways to improve on the huge number of undesirable companions rather than nerfing the handful that players actually like.
I remember a period where GF tanks were involved using "broken" ITF synergizing with HG and some other DR-buffs I allready forgot, that class was set in stone for a while in PVE. Devs stated they are doing small changes and adjustments to classes atm to balance out stuff, obviously they fear to rework or overhaul a class in total, maybe they are right doing so, maybe the learned from the past... but things go pretty slow like that. On the other hand I really can´t understand why they try to balance that way and implement new OP-stuff like a tiger or setboni the other way. The tiger will lead to a monoculture of companions. The moment they recognize, everyone uses that companion, due to it´s better buffs and due to the fact that this companion got ringslots and +5 rings overcome everything else in terms of dps .... big fail imo. On top some new rings did proc their setboni on companions, fail like every mod, not sure if fixed, since I did not play that much since mod release. I am pretty sure they gonna start thinking about a nerf the moment they read the 30th threat about: "Why is there no space for any other comps in this game" "I hate being forced to run one single comp as active" " My teammates kicked me, since my striker got no Tiger" ... maybe in 1-2 years, bc things go slow in NWO, far too slow.
@c1k4ml3kc3 is 100% correct in stating that so many things are predictable in this game, no need to rage about nerfs for ITF, Bubbladins, OP weaponenchants and many, many more. I did not rage about one single nerf , too predictable and imo needed most of the time for the sake of the game, I only raged about stupid broken BS that get´s implemented every time a new mod raises
GWF was competitive with the then-overpowered CW back when I last played nearly 4 years ago.
Hmmmm a bit before and post Arcane Singularity nerf which happened around the time 3rd boon maps opened (Icewind Dale), us CWs were doing insane amount of damage.
A regular T2 would end up in 20.000.000+ paingiver char for CW and up to 10.000.000 for other classes who were considered BiS at the time.
Although, yes, GWF was always competitive since GWFs would outrun everyone and kill things by the time others arrive. People did play them regularly in PvP, too.
True Neutral
Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
0
putzboy78Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,950Arc User
GWF was competitive with the then-overpowered CW back when I last played nearly 4 years ago.
GF was not considered necessary for PvE, but it and GWF were absolute monsters in PvP.
The point is that just because a certain class, spec, or item has it good does not guarantee that it will make Cryptic’s somewhat arbitrary-seeming nerf list.
GWF was not competitive with CW in PVE, not even close. In fact TR was much more popular than GWF because he was more effective in single target and could use stealth to help bypass content.
The reason GF had no role in PVE is that they couldn't hold agro because the threat multipliers were not strong enough, also in those days mark didn't serve as auto CA, you actually had to rely on positioning (which is now broken). Since they couldn't provide combat advantage, couldn't hold threat, were slow, and couldn't jump they were a hinderounce in speed runs which was the norm. GF in those days was immortal in PVP with a high regen build, but it killed nothing (this of course got reversed in mod 6 with the death of regen).
Class may or may not be balanced, if you want to see the death of GF and GWF, you'd have to replace the devs since they tend to favor their favorite classes. Was the same with CW being kind for so long, it was also the favored class to be played by devs.
I remember a period where GF tanks were involved using "broken" ITF synergizing with HG and some other DR-buffs I allready forgot, that class was set in stone for a while in PVE.
It wasn't broken it was a nerf, ITF was based on damage resistance so buffing damage resistance translated to improved ITF. It encouraged tanks to focus on damage resistance and made the DO DC viable as a damage resistance buffer. Also it was a product of removing diminishing returns on defense allowing GFs to stack enormous amounts of damage resistence for buffing. The logic existed pre-module 6 but wasn't a thing because defense stacking was held in check by diminishing returns.
The nerf to this synergy is what led to two of the larger complaints people express on the forums (though my experience in game is most don't care). TI as a passive buff and GFs doing an a ton of damage as a tank.
putzboy78, we'll just have to remember things differently in regards to GWF. Really great ones weren't common, but I was acquainted with a couple of GWFs back then who could pull even with top PvE CWs.
No, I don't want to see the death of GWF or GF. This tangent was a side discussion about how Cryptic does or doesn't choose to nerf or tweak things. My point is that it's very difficult to guess what they will choose to nerf and how/when they will do so.
I remember a period where GF tanks were involved using "broken" ITF synergizing with HG and some other DR-buffs I allready forgot, that class was set in stone for a while in PVE. Devs stated they are doing small changes and adjustments to classes atm to balance out stuff, obviously they fear to rework or overhaul a class in total, maybe they are right doing so, maybe the learned from the past... but things go pretty slow like that. On the other hand I really can´t understand why they try to balance that way and implement new OP-stuff like a tiger or setboni the other way. The tiger will lead to a monoculture of companions. The moment they recognize, everyone uses that companion, due to it´s better buffs and due to the fact that this companion got ringslots and +5 rings overcome everything else in terms of dps .... big fail imo. On top some new rings did proc their setboni on companions, fail like every mod, not sure if fixed, since I did not play that much since mod release. I am pretty sure they gonna start thinking about a nerf the moment they read the 30th threat about: "Why is there no space for any other comps in this game" "I hate being forced to run one single comp as active" " My teammates kicked me, since my striker got no Tiger" ... maybe in 1-2 years, bc things go slow in NWO, far too slow.
@c1k4ml3kc3 is 100% correct in stating that so many things are predictable in this game, no need to rage about nerfs for ITF, Bubbladins, OP weaponenchants and many, many more. I did not rage about one single nerf , too predictable and imo needed most of the time for the sake of the game, I only raged about stupid broken BS that get´s implemented every time a new mod raises
The easiest and best way to solve the companion issue is to enforce all players to use companion gear. The issue arose with Under Dark rings and if the new chult rings causes the same issue, than there is a high probability that the devs will enforce us to us companion gear and not the standard rings. I know many would be upset about this change, but the change would bring a bit more balance to all companions, though the Tiger would still be a bit stronger due to its debuff and active bonus.
As for nerfing the tiger, I'm sure they will do 1 or 2 things if they do any fix to it.
1) Adjust the active 2) Adjust the debuff
0
putzboy78Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,950Arc User
there has always been a BIS companion that everyone runs, I'm not sure hey have any intention to change that. They just introduce a new one every couple of mods so we can get it. There has never really been a bunch of viable alts just a few specific cases of alternative options like the stone of allure was sometimes not taken instead a few people favored stone of might or cat. or more recently some people run harper bard.
I mentioned because I was afraid, as per NWO experience of the past, that if something's good there's a chance for it to be messed with.
I had the same opinion about the archons, however it turned out that there wasn't any particular nerf in the process for the sake of "more randomness with companions".
In all honesty I am completely fine with a specific variety of companions for the people and I sincerely hope that those things won't change anytime soon.
True Neutral
Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
If anything, I simply want more variety of viable companions. Hopefully they won’t take the route of making the good companions worse in an attempt to make players open up their options.
Personally I would love it if they allowed players to toggle offense/defense at will for runestone slots. While basically no one actually wants defensive slots, at least the player choice would be preserved while making a lot of underutilized companions a bit more viable.
> @putzboy78 said: > introducing diminishing returns would increase variety in companion choices at least as far as active bonuses go.
That would force us to run with objectively worse companions which in turn would make t9g/new t3 dungeons grind worse by making the runs longer.
Longer runs + horrible rng= a big no no for most of us I'm afraid.
0
putzboy78Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,950Arc User
well that's the overlap in all these things people demand on the forums. nerf this nerf that, but don't make our run times longer. diminishing returns fixes so many complaints and makes the game much more interesting but at what cost?
That is a bug and not a nerf. A nerf would be for each group member that has a Fire Archon the Fire Archon active bonus is reduced by .25%. That would be a nerf to the current companions. The link you provided is a bug where the companion randomly gets unsommoned but shows as summoned.
Honestly, there is a difference between a bug and an adjustment to things in the game.
Bonding was an adjustment and not a bug fix; the devs felt bondings prior levels of sharing was to higher and therefore adjusted as needed.
That is a bug and not a nerf. A nerf would be for each group member that has a Fire Archon the Fire Archon active bonus is reduced by .25%. That would be a nerf to the current companions. The link you provided is a bug where the companion randomly gets unsommoned but shows as summoned.
Honestly, there is a difference between a bug and an adjustment to things in the game.
Bonding was an adjustment and not a bug fix; the devs felt bondings prior levels of sharing was to higher and therefore adjusted as needed.
I think the previous poster was being facetious.
In any case, this talk of companion nerfs doesn't really do anything to suggest ways to make the bad companions more appealing. Even if you nerfed archons, tigers, con artists, siege masters, and what-have-you, their bonuses would still be superior to what the rest of the zoo has to offer.
That is a bug and not a nerf. A nerf would be for each group member that has a Fire Archon the Fire Archon active bonus is reduced by .25%. That would be a nerf to the current companions. The link you provided is a bug where the companion randomly gets unsommoned but shows as summoned.
Honestly, there is a difference between a bug and an adjustment to things in the game.
Bonding was an adjustment and not a bug fix; the devs felt bondings prior levels of sharing was to higher and therefore adjusted as needed.
I think the previous poster was being facetious.
In any case, this talk of companion nerfs doesn't really do anything to suggest ways to make the bad companions more appealing. Even if you nerfed archons, tigers, con artists, siege masters, and what-have-you, their bonuses would still be superior to what the rest of the zoo has to offer.
but setting up diminishing returns would, because if you had diminishing returns on buffs/debuffs (yes i know there are diminishing returns on some types of debuff) you reach a point where other companions would outperform what is currently BIS.
That is a bug and not a nerf. A nerf would be for each group member that has a Fire Archon the Fire Archon active bonus is reduced by .25%. That would be a nerf to the current companions. The link you provided is a bug where the companion randomly gets unsommoned but shows as summoned.
Honestly, there is a difference between a bug and an adjustment to things in the game.
Bonding was an adjustment and not a bug fix; the devs felt bondings prior levels of sharing was to higher and therefore adjusted as needed.
I think the previous poster was being facetious.
In any case, this talk of companion nerfs doesn't really do anything to suggest ways to make the bad companions more appealing. Even if you nerfed archons, tigers, con artists, siege masters, and what-have-you, their bonuses would still be superior to what the rest of the zoo has to offer.
but setting up diminishing returns would, because if you had diminishing returns on buffs/debuffs (yes i know there are diminishing returns on some types of debuff) you reach a point where other companions would outperform what is currently BIS.
Removal of stacking of the same buff, debuff, etc.. would bring about a lot of balance in this game. I mean 5 Con Artist right now is all you really need for helping reduce an enemy defense on Console and soon it will be the Tiger. Now if the devs stated that a companion apply X debuff can only be applied 1x, having 5 con artist in a group would be pointless. If the debuffs show different value but do the same thing, like the Tiger and the Con Artist you could have 1 of each. Than add the Buff from the Green Scale bowman, Harper Bard, etc...it would add a bit of diversity to the summon companions we use.
That is a bug and not a nerf. A nerf would be for each group member that has a Fire Archon the Fire Archon active bonus is reduced by .25%. That would be a nerf to the current companions. The link you provided is a bug where the companion randomly gets unsommoned but shows as summoned.
No duh have you ever heard of sarcasm ? I would kinda think it speaks for it self when i give a link to a "BUG" report .
But i thought this thread was about 2 DCs ? Funny thing now is we will see the need for 3 DCs if not four in new trial as the DOs TI is only good for one party and if both parties have DPS then that is kinda the meta . Funny how the devs try to fix something that is not really so broken and it just breaks more
not sure that means its more broken, the avg ratio of clerics in a cradle run will be lower than it is for the avg tong. The challenges are still in fixing rewards to encourage rainbow parties and making available the "healer" role in end game content to be something besides a cleric.
Removal of stacking of the same buff, debuff, etc.. would bring about a lot of balance in this game. I mean 5 Con Artist right now is all you really need for helping reduce an enemy defense on Console and soon it will be the Tiger. Now if the devs stated that a companion apply X debuff can only be applied 1x, having 5 con artist in a group would be pointless. If the debuffs show different value but do the same thing, like the Tiger and the Con Artist you could have 1 of each. Than add the Buff from the Green Scale bowman, Harper Bard, etc...it would add a bit of diversity to the summon companions we use.
But, you see, the removal of buff stacking would just face another problem altogether which comes to people demanding that other people have specific pets in their build before they take them to the dungeon or similar. You'd get chat filled with "LF3M DC/w scrop comp;OP/w yeti;TR/w rat"
The thing is, developers can UP the HP of the mobs and remove special protection they have. That way there would be no obligation to impose debuff parties as the solitary cornerstone of the party buildup.
@ topic : Yeah, yeah, 2 DC nerf is the topic but we already said and I think we agreed that the problem lies with the perma-armor of the mobs, thus inducing people to mitigate that problem by allowing more debuffs in the pt.
Really, this is the last, true MOD6 problem that still needs to be addressed somehow. Just my 2 cents.
True Neutral
Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
So, you didn't have any doubts that Chultan Tiger's going to last and not get a nerf in approx 2-3 months? How? Genually curious - how? I sure did. And I don't think that comparison does it justice. Nevermind that story
This is more interesting : GWF and GF are terribly shaped and pretty much forced into specific builds without much freedom to explore. I reckon that they will eventually see some proper fix and a look into the class. I still remember the time when nobody would take a GF tank or otherwise in many previous mods. But GWF and GF aren't as popular as support classes in my opinion and those are, as of this moment, 2 x DC 1 x Pally.
The calculation is rather simple, they give too much benefits to the party, and this is one of the major mistakes that's still making it's ripple ever since MOD6 got introduced and people were forced, literally, to play with a tank and a healer. And I recall that as a terrible time for Neverwinter.
tank were? healer were? game so far offers possibility for op/gf to go full dps, they made the mistake to give players r13/r14, when they make content for 12k il req. and player can reach 18k-20k il see the big difference. do dc so far can go dps/buff/debuff without sacrificing that much recovery/cd/ap gain.
The tiger is best when clearing trash. Maybe the developers want to give us a bone to allow us to clear the boring easier? Why would this need to be changed? No need at all. This is a nice balance, since the tiger has much less impact on the boss fights in the end game content.
The tiger is best when clearing trash. Maybe the developers want to give us a bone to allow us to clear the boring easier? Why would this need to be changed? No need at all. This is a nice balance, since the tiger has much less impact on the boss fights in the end game content.
I will continue to use my current summoned companion. No need for me to change my companion to the Chult Tiger once launched on the PS4.
Comments
This is more interesting : GWF and GF are terribly shaped and pretty much forced into specific builds without much freedom to explore. I reckon that they will eventually see some proper fix and a look into the class.
I still remember the time when nobody would take a GF tank or otherwise in many previous mods. But GWF and GF aren't as popular as support classes in my opinion and those are, as of this moment, 2 x DC 1 x Pally.
The calculation is rather simple, they give too much benefits to the party, and this is one of the major mistakes that's still making it's ripple ever since MOD6 got introduced and people were forced, literally, to play with a tank and a healer. And I recall that as a terrible time for Neverwinter.
Just because things have been viable for awhile, doesn't mean it has always been that way. For well over two years CW was the king of paingiver and tr was the king of single target dps.
GF was not considered necessary for PvE, but it and GWF were absolute monsters in PvP.
The point is that just because a certain class, spec, or item has it good does not guarantee that it will make Cryptic’s somewhat arbitrary-seeming nerf list.
As for the tiger, I explained why it’s not game-breaking. Again, it’s good, but it’s nothing that needs a nerf. Cryptic would be better off finding ways to improve on the huge number of undesirable companions rather than nerfing the handful that players actually like.
Contagion - Cleric
Testament - Wizard
Pestilence - Ranger
Dominion - Paladin
NIGHTSWATCH
Devs stated they are doing small changes and adjustments to classes atm to balance out stuff, obviously they fear to rework or overhaul a class in total, maybe they are right doing so, maybe the learned from the past... but things go pretty slow like that.
On the other hand I really can´t understand why they try to balance that way and implement new OP-stuff like a tiger or setboni the other way.
The tiger will lead to a monoculture of companions. The moment they recognize, everyone uses that companion, due to it´s better buffs and due to the fact that this companion got ringslots and +5 rings overcome everything else in terms of dps .... big fail imo.
On top some new rings did proc their setboni on companions, fail like every mod, not sure if fixed, since I did not play that much since mod release.
I am pretty sure they gonna start thinking about a nerf the moment they read the 30th threat about:
"Why is there no space for any other comps in this game"
"I hate being forced to run one single comp as active"
" My teammates kicked me, since my striker got no Tiger"
... maybe in 1-2 years, bc things go slow in NWO, far too slow.
@c1k4ml3kc3 is 100% correct in stating that so many things are predictable in this game, no need to rage about nerfs for ITF, Bubbladins, OP weaponenchants and many, many more.
I did not rage about one single nerf , too predictable and imo needed most of the time for the sake of the game, I only raged about stupid broken BS that get´s implemented every time a new mod raises
A regular T2 would end up in 20.000.000+ paingiver char for CW and up to 10.000.000 for other classes who were considered BiS at the time.
Although, yes, GWF was always competitive since GWFs would outrun everyone and kill things by the time others arrive. People did play them regularly in PvP, too.
The reason GF had no role in PVE is that they couldn't hold agro because the threat multipliers were not strong enough, also in those days mark didn't serve as auto CA, you actually had to rely on positioning (which is now broken). Since they couldn't provide combat advantage, couldn't hold threat, were slow, and couldn't jump they were a hinderounce in speed runs which was the norm. GF in those days was immortal in PVP with a high regen build, but it killed nothing (this of course got reversed in mod 6 with the death of regen).
Class may or may not be balanced, if you want to see the death of GF and GWF, you'd have to replace the devs since they tend to favor their favorite classes. Was the same with CW being kind for so long, it was also the favored class to be played by devs. It wasn't broken it was a nerf, ITF was based on damage resistance so buffing damage resistance translated to improved ITF. It encouraged tanks to focus on damage resistance and made the DO DC viable as a damage resistance buffer. Also it was a product of removing diminishing returns on defense allowing GFs to stack enormous amounts of damage resistence for buffing. The logic existed pre-module 6 but wasn't a thing because defense stacking was held in check by diminishing returns.
The nerf to this synergy is what led to two of the larger complaints people express on the forums (though my experience in game is most don't care). TI as a passive buff and GFs doing an a ton of damage as a tank.
No, I don't want to see the death of GWF or GF. This tangent was a side discussion about how Cryptic does or doesn't choose to nerf or tweak things. My point is that it's very difficult to guess what they will choose to nerf and how/when they will do so.
Contagion - Cleric
Testament - Wizard
Pestilence - Ranger
Dominion - Paladin
NIGHTSWATCH
As for nerfing the tiger, I'm sure they will do 1 or 2 things if they do any fix to it.
1) Adjust the active
2) Adjust the debuff
I mentioned because I was afraid, as per NWO experience of the past, that if something's good there's a chance for it to be messed with.
I had the same opinion about the archons, however it turned out that there wasn't any particular nerf in the process for the sake of "more randomness with companions".
In all honesty I am completely fine with a specific variety of companions for the people and I sincerely hope that those things won't change anytime soon.
Personally I would love it if they allowed players to toggle offense/defense at will for runestone slots. While basically no one actually wants defensive slots, at least the player choice would be preserved while making a lot of underutilized companions a bit more viable.
Contagion - Cleric
Testament - Wizard
Pestilence - Ranger
Dominion - Paladin
NIGHTSWATCH
> introducing diminishing returns would increase variety in companion choices at least as far as active bonuses go.
That would force us to run with objectively worse companions which in turn would make t9g/new t3 dungeons grind worse by making the runs longer.
Longer runs + horrible rng= a big no no for most of us I'm afraid.
Honestly, there is a difference between a bug and an adjustment to things in the game.
Bonding was an adjustment and not a bug fix; the devs felt bondings prior levels of sharing was to higher and therefore adjusted as needed.
In any case, this talk of companion nerfs doesn't really do anything to suggest ways to make the bad companions more appealing. Even if you nerfed archons, tigers, con artists, siege masters, and what-have-you, their bonuses would still be superior to what the rest of the zoo has to offer.
Contagion - Cleric
Testament - Wizard
Pestilence - Ranger
Dominion - Paladin
NIGHTSWATCH
The thing is, developers can UP the HP of the mobs and remove special protection they have. That way there would be no obligation to impose debuff parties as the solitary cornerstone of the party buildup.
@ topic : Yeah, yeah, 2 DC nerf is the topic but we already said and I think we agreed that the problem lies with the perma-armor of the mobs, thus inducing people to mitigate that problem by allowing more debuffs in the pt.
Really, this is the last, true MOD6 problem that still needs to be addressed somehow. Just my 2 cents.
What will be next?
5% DPS + 10% debuff + a 4k powerbuff maybe...
The tiger is best when clearing trash. Maybe the developers want to give us a bone to allow us to clear the boring easier? Why would this need to be changed? No need at all. This is a nice balance, since the tiger has much less impact on the boss fights in the end game content.