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My take on the "2DC nerf"
adinosii
Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 4,294 Arc User
in The Temple
I posted a similar post on the Preview discussion thread, but it should be of interest here as well
You know what...this is not going to change anything for them - in fact, with the nerfs making ToNG runs slightly harder than before, groups are going to be even less likely than before to want to take an "average" TR, for example - the onnly thing that will change is that instead of us seeing "LF2M AC DC, DO DC" we will now see "LF2M AC DC, MoF CW". Nothing changes regarding the underlying problem, which is that people don't want to run the content with "1 DPS, 1 Tank, 1 Healer", simply because that is slow and painful. People are still going to want one primary DPS and the rest of the team buffing him/her.
Now, it seems to me that the idea behind the nerf is to reduce the usefulness of DO DCs in group to the point where they will no longer be wanted and encourage people to bring CWs instead - or (probably) Bards once they get introduced (Mod 14?).
I mention DOs in particular, as the nerfs seem designed to hit them much harder than ACs.
So, let's look a bit closer at the individual changes.
So, bottom line - DO DCs are now far less useful in groups that they used to be and some groups may want to replace the DO with a MoF CW or possibly a SW (or later, a Bard). In order to make the DO not completely useless, Flame Strike got a buff, but of course, that's usually only used in solo content. Content like ToNG will now be a bit harder than before. Groups that used to run it in 18-19 minutes will now take 20-22. Groups that barely could finish in an hour will now fail. Have fun.
Some of the complaints about the "2 DC meta" were made by DPSers that complained that nobody wanted them in ToNG runs, and it was unfair to let DCs take up 2 "slots", leaving them out in the cold.terramak said:Devoted Cleric
- Doubling Up
- Dev note: We'd like to reduce the potency of bringing two Devoted Clerics to a party, and instead open that spot in high-end groups to other classes that can provide offensive support. We also want both DC Paragon Paths to remain viable choices. As a result, we expect these changes to have low impact to individual Devoted Clerics, while opening up the meta for a wider variety of classes.
- The feat, Bear Your Sins, no longer stacks while multiple Clerics are present.
- The feat, Weapons of Light, no longer stacks while multiple Clerics are present. The strongest version of this feat will apply.
- The Damage Dealt buff from Hallowed Ground is now 35% at its highest rank, lowered from 40%.
- The Damage Dealt buff from Break the Spirit is now 20%, reduced from 30%.
- Exaltation no longer stacks when multiple clerics cast it on the same target.
- The Run Speed debuff applied by Forgemaster's Flame can no longer have more than 3 stacks even if multiple Clerics apply it.
You know what...this is not going to change anything for them - in fact, with the nerfs making ToNG runs slightly harder than before, groups are going to be even less likely than before to want to take an "average" TR, for example - the onnly thing that will change is that instead of us seeing "LF2M AC DC, DO DC" we will now see "LF2M AC DC, MoF CW". Nothing changes regarding the underlying problem, which is that people don't want to run the content with "1 DPS, 1 Tank, 1 Healer", simply because that is slow and painful. People are still going to want one primary DPS and the rest of the team buffing him/her.
Now, it seems to me that the idea behind the nerf is to reduce the usefulness of DO DCs in group to the point where they will no longer be wanted and encourage people to bring CWs instead - or (probably) Bards once they get introduced (Mod 14?).
I mention DOs in particular, as the nerfs seem designed to hit them much harder than ACs.
So, let's look a bit closer at the individual changes.
- Non-stacking BYS. Not surprising, I had expected this, and it affects ACs and DOs equally.
- Non-stacking WoL. Again, not surprising, I had also expected this, and it affects ACs slightly more than DOS, as ACs typically have higher Power.
- HG nerf. This pretty much only affects DOs, as HG is the only useful DO daily in group PvE content. The DO-specific Hammer of Faith is pretty much only useful in PvP. This reduction is a pretty bug nerf to DOs and their usefulness in groups.
- BtS nerf. The "standard practice" today in 2 DC groups is that the AC takes FF and the DO takes BtS - this works out better than the other way around for various reasons. So, this is another nerf to DOs, reducing their usefulness in groups even further.
- Non-stacking Exaltation. I did not think that haviing multiple ACs in the group was ever done, but maybe the motivation for this is that you want to discourage people from replacing the DO with another AC.
- FF run-speed nerf. Seriously - why bother? I don't see this as having any real effect anywhere.
So, bottom line - DO DCs are now far less useful in groups that they used to be and some groups may want to replace the DO with a MoF CW or possibly a SW (or later, a Bard). In order to make the DO not completely useless, Flame Strike got a buff, but of course, that's usually only used in solo content. Content like ToNG will now be a bit harder than before. Groups that used to run it in 18-19 minutes will now take 20-22. Groups that barely could finish in an hour will now fail. Have fun.
Hoping for improvements...
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Comments
So, a bit disappointed there.
Santa Claus --GF
Gargamel --CW
BYS stacking isn't that important as there are so many ways to get debuffs to the point of DR.
WoL is minor because DO's don't stack enough power for it to really matter.
HG lost 5% which is fairly minor
BTS lost 10% still not a big deal.
The passive TI buff is unchanged, we still have FF and BTS (nerfed but still working) If these changes go live in the current form, it is a minor thing indeed. I dislike the 2DC meta and was hoping they had an actual plan. (more balanced groups doing similar damage) but this is just a lot of wasted dev time.
Sure I am happy about this change because I have a MoF setup but this is exactly what the devs had to do. Hopefully even a buff SWs will now have the chance to find groups.
IN some parties will be more efficient to have a do instead a ac, in other parties an ac.
IF my party has enough power from a sw as you mentioned and an op is more efficient to invite a divine oracle since has an extra straight buff not related to power.
IF my party need more power i will take an ac instead.
AND even no dc why not ? ( like will be the first time this haha:P ) .
Removing power/feat stacking makes since as long as it's implemented consistently not just targeted at DC. Noone was running 2xExhault anyway and unless you have a keybind (which many don't because they consider it an exploit) exhault is near useless.
As mentioned in the other thread that thankfully got kicked out of the temple, the problem is 4xSupport not 2xDC. A change to DCs that reduces the 2xDC meta only makes room for another support role. People who want to dps are still fighting for one role. Healidon and templock still not getting play. So overall this is meh, unless combined changes with other classes/content significantly changes things. I only had time to read the DC changes so far.
the rest are just usuall nerfs (stacks of FF and exaltation???)
if you play DC you should get used to it. at one point we wont be able to do the daily grind and than will get buff.
till than, all nerfs
Always innocently got nerfed because of other classes. Virtuous AP share build is gone, Faithful + AS pvp sentinel build is gone, and now Righteous debuff build for DO is nerfed, either go for AC or pray there isnt a MoF around.
DO = better debuffer, better dps (self and group), same as higher buffs all in all for the absolute mayority of DC´s, due to TI.
AC= better tools for mitigation, and the option to go for double daily at higher IL to overcome that DO.
You can run double DC and will do better in all cases than running with a DC+templock, I guess that CW will also do worse in the sum, beside the fact that my DO DC can support far better in terms of mititgation.
I don´t want to bother anyone with numbers of stacking buffs/debuffs, but double DC stays meta in case you do not have an AC/DC that is able to spam double daily.
But even if not, who thinks two DC should allways be set in stone in one dungeon, having one DC 100% in every group, every time, all day long all of the time?
TI changes was the first thing I searched through Ctrl+F, and fortunatly, there were no changes. If things go live as presented in preview, DO is still good to go!
Honestly, I feared for something worse. My thoughts always wondered about the downfall of one of the paragons, which didn't happen fortunatly.
The focus on one DC is not the solution people wan't or deserve. There is still no room for Templock or Healidon. There is still no room for dps tr, hr, cw, or hr. A block to 2xDC runs does not create balance it just shifts the in-balance while limiting who's allowed to play together.
Now if Hero's Accord had better incentives or had unique mechanics that inspired people to participate you would probably see more participation in it and it would open up the floor for more players. The easy answer is improving the reward system. A more complex answer could be creating a buff/curse system based on roles for hero's accord queues to improve everyone's performance for running outside of the meta (thus reducing the run time for this queue).
Demand a better solution. Limiting socialization is not the answer and can have very bad side effects. The social is why you play this game and the same for everyone else that is playing this game.
Its allways the reward that limit some good intentions.
Running in a non meta group you get 2500 RP. Honestly, 2500 refinement points, how long does it take to get those points farming with your Dragon Horads... 2 minutes maybe or 3?
The dev who implemented this rewards did not play this game once in his life.
Second, ToNG is easier than MSPC. My MSPC runs where it is 1 DC and MoF Renegade or a Templock are very close in completion time to 2 DC runs. Sorry your complaint about fixing the 2 DC meta is really not needed.
This update will open up the window for other buffers that maybe left to the pasture due to the stacking that DC were able to do with Weapon of Light and Bear Your Sins.
I watched LFG this weekend; a MoF buffer around 15K was left out of quite a few ToNG runs due to the 2 DC meta along with a handful of Templock just calling out and not really being picked up. I like this change, it will open up the door for other classes that are not DCs but are buffers.
This update does not fix the larger issue where content is designed for 1 tank, 1 healer and 3 DPS but it is a move in the right direction where it encourages us to include another class in runs that are not DCs.
Do you know off hand if other classes allow buffs/debuff and stat sharing to stack? If so, that needs to be fixed.
Hopefully mod 13b that can be fixed.
What we will need to do now is align on the appropriate build for DO and AC so that the combination is maximized when it is ran. I for one would make DO Righteous and AC Virt a thing. With AC Virt taking weapons of light and Gift of Haste while the DO's focus would be on Condeming Gaze and and Bear your Sins. The DO Right can then take Benefit of Foresight and Gift of the Gods.
Personally I would agree that the ability to stack buffs/debuffs that overlap shouldn't be a think unless lore/D&D mechanic appropriate. However in the player handbook it clearly states
"The effects of different spells add together while the duration's of those spells overlap. The effects of the same spell cast multiple times don't combine, however. Instead the most potent effect - such as the highest bonus - from the casting applies where their duration's overlap."
So yes I would agree that spells shouldn't stack. Over the years that has been the case where DC powers overlap (as well as potions and other abilities overlapping). I'm not sure what the other spellcaster classes abilities are in this regard. I would look to the theorycrafters of those classes for guidance on the matter.
Anyhow these changes do not impact how I play the game. I do think the general public would accept such changes easier if it was part of a global cleansing i.e. We are removing all spell overlaps because we find it encourages 2 of same class meta's, its not consistent with D&D (although we readily admit the game will never be true to D&D), and because we find it necessary in our pursuit of balance. versus we are doing this to DC to remove the 2 DC meta. It's a more logical argument and it would appear they are avoiding having to do this same course of action in the future.
As of now I very rarely play the AC load-out - it makes sense mostly as the 2nd dc in a party (so tong basically...though I´m often the DO there, too)...
I wouldn´t really mind if playing a DO was more fun and engaging. But the thing is...as a DO you can´t continuously improve your primary function as a support like the AC. Investing in your toon as an AC rewards you with stronger buffs, more uptime on double dailies...it also felt way more fast-paced and came with more of a necessity to move and position (I swear my DO looks fat and pasty:P). My lowly 14,5k DO can rise to the task of slotting TI with its daunting requirement to kinda be on the same map as the rest of the party (I suppose...never checked:P) just as well as the fancy pants 17k DO. Continuously placing the one (and only-.-) huge aoe and looong duration daily is also hard to fail at. The fancy pants 17k DO might do moar dmg but if that is of any significance in endgame content like tong (or msp or fbi) it might be a better idea to misuse ones holy symbol to bang it over the head of the actual dps-toon(s) because they must be comatose.
And when the dev says "We also want both DC Paragon Paths to remain viable choices."......how? I mean sure...even after these latest nerfs the AC might still be viable as the 2nd DC in a party (ironically) but other than that...why choose to invest in an AC-load-out if you don´t already have an one at this point? So the question would be if the suboptimal AC load-out of the typical DO Dc beats the suboptimal MOF rene load-out of the typical SS thaum Cw. I dunno...probably...who care at this point?:P
The one thing I would expect for the future (remembering a respective dev post) would be that they decrease the efficiency of buffs relative to the efficiency of straight dps. So then you´d have parties with three dps racing each other wiping the floor with monsters + 1 bored buffer (if they don´t go overboard in the other direction) + one bored tank. Yawn.
What would make things more exciting would be if game and class mechanics became more complex; more interdependencies, less self-sufficiency; not just piling up offensive buffs or a mindless dps-race while erm...doing different things with green or fiery balls etc. Healing, mitigation, cc...and better dungeons to go with that.
But it doesn´t seem to be reasonable to hope for that. More HE (omg why-.-) and trials trying your patience and more shiny mounts. Though I -really- like that department of the NW team that does animations, models and sounds. Best experience in NW lately was my happy little cw purchasing that cute sledge with a bell and a loop ....:D
You allways point at QQ*, maybe not playing a striker in this game ? I play both, supporter and striker and farmed that dungeon enough with my supporterclass for my taste.
So I assume in general you think it´s a good way to have 4xbufferparties same as two of the same class in a dungeon?
Or you don´t agree and say it´s a "nogo" and needs fix/balance, dominating several mods for too long, your decision I would say.
But arguing one way and discredit players the other way sounds like an inner conflict to me.
In general I agree that actual changes will not change a lot. 4x buffer will be meta for the next mods.
*Urban Dictionary: QQ: Google says
Contrary to popular belief, QQ is not a set of crying eyes. It actually originated with the advent of Warcraft II. On battlenet, you could press ALT+Q+Q to immediately exit the match and program. Thus the term "QQ" was to tell people to just quit because they are unskilled. The term later developed and lost it's origin and is usually mistaken as crying eyes. In contemporary gamer culture, QQ has become the mainstream emoticon for crying eyes, though it is still often used in it's traditional sense.
My AC build already uses both Gift of Haste and Weapon of Light. My AC build is designed around group play only. My DO build is around my solo adventures in NW. As you pointed out though, some minor adjustment and 2 DC still can be a thing.
The thing with buffers and debuffer in NW, almost all classes offer some form of buffing and debuffing.
1) GF has the full on Tac build that provides AP regen, damage reduction, and ITF bonus damage.
2) CW Renegade is viable with both paragon path for buffing and the MoF paragon path offers Hybrid builds with decent damage and buffing.
3) Templocks
4) HR both archery and Trapper offer decent buffs. In fact, my HR Stormwarden Combat even offers some buff at the start of combat.
5) TR have some group utility as well
GWF lone buff I know off hand is the stamina buff from Battle Fury I blieve, which is really sad when compared to what all other classes can do for buffing.
I didn't mention pally's as either build offers some type of buffing.
I do agree that the devs need to apply the same logic to all classes for balance reasons and hopefully they do.
The other thing to consider is newer higher IL artifact weapons, this means more damage by all. Also, check out some of the gear with the next mod, it appears the devs are finding a way to offset the adjustment by providing gear that has an active bonus that increases damage by a % for us players. I bet we won't even really feel the disadvantage due to the new gear coming out in the next mod any ways.
Not my fault if the use the same name for a class feature and an event. And yes the spelling is "gods" it was shortened on the wiki because of duplication. Then a followup off topic discussion on the history of QQ. Good job trying to distract from the theme.
I point at the QQrs because they are the ones demanding change and will continue to demand it until their needs are meet. Even if they don't understand what really drives their angst.
I play all classes except OP because zzzzzzzzz, not that its relavent
My point has consistently been that having 4 buffer/debuffer roles + 1 dps does not fix the problem. A DPS CW does not want to run as a debuff CW. These changes are only temporary appeasement of a the true issue which is not all classes and builds are end game viable. So yeah a debuff CWs chance of getting into a party just went up but the DPS CW, TR, HR, SW are still standing at the entrance to TONG waiting to get in. Same goes for healidons and templocks waiting to take that healer spot. Ideal world buff/debuff/dps roles can fill the 3 current "dps" slots equally. A quick nerf to DC doesn't fix the problem, it will appease some until mod13 launch when they realize it didn't help. Then the drama starts over again. The only question is where does the hate get pointed at next by those who react to symptoms not the disease. Will it be two tanks? Will it still be 2DC because 2DC will still be popular because DC is still viable and having a backup of a key role is never a bad thing? Will it be because the TONG is to hard for 12K ilvl players.
TONG has one thing that MSP and FBI do not have. Which is a timer that assures you cannot overcome the dungeon with survive-ability, you must have good DPS. This is a part of the mechanic I don't agree with because it takes the option of a tank build to tank and a healer built for heals off the table for making the dungeon accessible to everyone. Ideally a 12K tank and a 12K healidon can carry 3 12K dps players through it by protecting the team, that solution is not even an option even if they were willing to spend 90 minutes to accomplish it. I like TONG and its interesting mechanics but this does gate the content and push people into carrying about ilvls and metas.
I would stay out, if not those UE´would drop. The lag kills the fun.
I think my AC/DC will be the favoured build especially for bossencounter, since it´s essential for Tong (2.+3. boss) and it has the ability to partially hold up AA+HG at some bossencounter. ByS is up 100%, CG near 90% anyway and the usage of hastening light is nice to have.
About the hate.., in my opinion there is also a lot of hate in posts from specfic favoured classes to read in.
Some player, even tough knowing exactly what´s going on, deny the obvious and begin to sharpen their claws, the moment someone points at a disbalance in a threat. Balance is allways a goal to achieve, but will never be achieved.
A DC is 100% set in stone for any meta, in every group at any time.
So why are so many player "QQ"ing when small and long needed fixes are made (stacking feats) ?
The nerf towards BtS is minor and if you compare FF and BtS, the last one still overcomes the first. HG is a daily that simply beats anything in this game since long, not sure if it allways was like 40%/40% (dps/DR), forgot about it.
So your solution would be a multiplier for specific classes inside a dungeon bc they underperform instead of taking care of stacking buffs?
Guess that´s what you mentioned in another post, or something similar, not sure.