Was just a joke... You can tell because two people clicked LOL
With jokes and or light hearted statements over the internet via text people tend to use "lol" "/jk" or something along those lines to denote otherwise (not that they have to) rather than AFTER the fact.
Pretty sure if someone took that post seriously (as in agreed and or supported it) it wouldn't have been framed as a joke after the fact... LoL
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“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY "No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
Normally it’s pretty easy to see where you are going with your troll posts
Ok, I’ll bite... WTF are you trying to say?
Please keep in mind, I’m only asking for one reply... I’ll not be the cause of yet one more pathetic trinity thread derailment, so this will be my last post on this thread
Lot of excuses in this thread for abandoning low level players. People need to remember we have all had to progress through the stage where we can't survive a dungeon run alone. At the end of the day help a fellow player that is struggling through a dungeon adds 2 minutes to the run if you can't offer that to a newbie then why are you part of the community?
Lot of excuses in this thread for abandoning low level players. People need to remember we have all had to progress through the stage where we can't survive a dungeon run alone. At the end of the day help a fellow player that is struggling through a dungeon adds 2 minutes to the run if you can't offer that to a newbie then why are you part of the community?
*points at this post while looking at everyone who thinks it's okay to leave a low level player*
Read this twice. Let it sink in.
Additionally, some of the same people saying the low levels slow them down, so they should be able to fend for themselves or leave would be the same people to scream and yell if an elite team left them behind in an end game dungeon or didn't pick them up fast enough when they died.
As far as leaving LLP's behind, running ahead and downing mobs or sticking close essentially produces the same result though arguably a considerable amount of HLP's would rather run ahead.
Clearing the path ahead isn't abandoning LLP's, skipping mobs for them to fight is though (mobs that are along the glowing path).
Some of the complaints in this thread include LLP's with sketchy behavior. Being a LLP isn't necessarily an issue, yes there are players that would prefer if you moved faster though consistently moving towards the end is a better look.
Though sometimes LLP's travel off the glowing path and start exploring/fighting mobs that are tucked away in corners...
That is something that seemingly has yet to be expressed in this thread. Pretty sure in a number of cases where players complain about other group members "leaving mobs behind for me to fight" this is what is happening (traveling off the glowing path). Personally sometimes when the new player message pops up the long way is taken and or mobs slightly off the glowing path are taken care of (for the most part the further off mobs are left) just in case it is an actual new player that hasn't been in the content before and they explore (rather than a new character of an experienced player).
LLP's can and do slow down other players though the ones that are actually participating are far more acceptable than the ones that are LLP's because the person in charge of them intentionally keeps them as a LLP by not upgrading their equipment and or intentionally does not participate by going AFK/disconnecting, etc.
In end game content (which is a different category) everyone has to pull their weight or things get dicey for the most part though if players go down there there are things like scrolls to get them back in the fight. Personally it is expected for players to have scrolls, sometimes even asked before queuing how many scrolls everyone has and if anyone answers "none" and or takes offense to being asked the group can be dropped. Scrolls are not cheap over tine and not going to carry a full group because they don't want to spend for scrolls to help the group survive the content. Having that kind of mentality is similar to if the not the same as a player expecting to be carried through RQ's.
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“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY "No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
As far as leaving LLP's behind, running ahead and downing mobs or sticking close essentially produces the same result though arguably a considerable amount of HLP's would rather run ahead.
Clearing the path ahead isn't abandoning LLP's, skipping mobs for them to fight is though (mobs that are along the glowing path).
Some of the complaints in this thread include LLP's with sketchy behavior. Being a LLP isn't necessarily an issue, yes there are players that would prefer if you moved faster though consistently moving towards the end is a better look.
Though sometimes LLP's travel off the glowing path and start exploring/fighting mobs that are tucked away in corners...
-snip-
Actually to be honest, running ahead and "clearing a path" is the very textbook defination of abandoning the a player, if you leave them behind to do it, lower level or not. Not every player has the gear, enhancements or ability to run quickly through a dungeon - but every player has the ability to slow down and remain with the slowest character.
Running ahead and clearing the mobs also denies those players following an opportunity to participate in the dungeon content, I don't agree that staying beside them and allowing them to participate in battles "essentially produces the same result" - at least not for those new, lower level or slower players. Dungeon content consists of more than running from point "A" to point "B" collecting the astral diamonds and leaving even if someone has already run that same content dozens of times and doesn't care about drops, chests, or exploring.
Yes there have been many complaints about lower level players and what you call their undefined "sketchy behavior"... but then isn't their behavior only considered "sketchy" if a player disagrees with their play style, or suspects (but how could we know for sure) they may be scamming?
Moving slowly through a dungeon is not sketchy behavior - it's a choice, choosing to fight as many mobs as a player can find, even off the path and in tucked away corners is not sketchy behavior - it is a choice, exploring, taking time to open chests, picking up drops, etc. likewise isn't sketchy behavior - that too is a choice.
The only sketchy behaviour I can think of is for someone to intentionally disconnect or walk away from the keyboard in the middle of play...
But realistically how can anyone know if a player intentionally disconnects or goes AFK -vs- having lag or connectivity issues?
Exploring, going of the path, and fighting mobs tucked away in corners is something I believe every more experienced, higher level player has had the opportunity to do at one timer or another as they were leveling up... So why is this suddenly an issue for them when other players want to do it?
For HLP's completion time is of concern to them so "essentially produces the same result" was in regard to completion time since the speed of the slowest character sets how fast the content could be completed.
As previously mentioned LLP's will be able to participate how when grouped with HLP's that can one/few shot mobs and even if they stick close to the LLP's? Very little? "Unfortunately" the trade off for them not being able to participate is faster RAD. And again, as previously mentioned if LLP's want to participate in content a pre-formed at level group will give them just that, an at level experience.
The game overall has many things to do and a number of players skip a number of those things so queues are no different...
Sketchy behavior is sketchy behavior. If you are walking around during the evening time an see someone off to the side in the shadows does that mean they are up to no good, not necessarily, though if you feel that they are it is well within reason. Same with Neverwinter if you see a character:
- lvl 60+ with common gear and empty slots. - frequently stopping. - disconnecting immediately at the start. - AFK - not considerably participating (for example 12k+ DPS being out DPS'ed by a 7k character). - etc.
It is all sketchy behavior and if a vote-vote is initiated due to those above things it is within reason. If a LLP has a vote-kick against them initiated it is for a reason, whether it is a selfish one or due to their own negative behavior is up to the initiator.
What reason(s) would a lvl 30-40+ character have with empty equipment slots and or lower lvl common gear? As previously mentioned quests grant higher and higher lvl/quality equipment (as well as queues themselves) which indicates (not proves) that the character isn't for effectively participating. Also the less a character in a group is doing the more the others have to do, also as previously mentioned being AFK/disconnected means a character isn't participating at all, whether it is intentional or not matters less. If a character disconnects immediately and doesn't return until the end/if at all that is sketchy as well. It's not the players' job to determine who is legitimate or not, they can only judge their behavior and respond accordingly.
Giving sketchy behavior a pass simply because the players themselves can't necessarily prove otherwise just opens the door for abuse which the game currently has more than enough of already. That's what reports are for, so CS will hopefully investigate, hmm this account has been reported X number of times in a short amount of time for YX. Vote kicks have a reason attached and they are logged.
If LLP's want to explore personally it is fine. No real issue with that here, it's the ones that, disconnect, AFK and don't even try to participate.
It depends on the player if they explore/explored, if a player is familiar with MMO's they know the low level stuff isn't worth much and going out of one's way to acquire them may or may not be worth it. Personally didn't join a group on the first character until Elemental Evil campaign, even after didn't/don't run around queues picking this and that for the most part (especially lower level ones).
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“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY "No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
So again it is all about some HLP's wanting to get their AD's as quickly as possible, fine and good that's their choice…
However, when a higher level player chooses to try to quickly run a dungeon, ignore chests and drops because most of that stuff is useless to them, that does not negate any other player's choice to, open chests, pick up drops or even stop and look around and explore if they want.
What reason would a level 30-40 character have for not having their enchantment slots filled or running with “common gear”?
Perhaps you should have asked them instead of speculating they were engaging in “sketchy behavior”… I can’t answer for anyone else but I know I once took out my Azure enchantments because I didn’t want one of my characters to level up too quickly… no doubt what you would consider “sketchy behavior” since I didn’t have enchantments in my headpiece, bracers or boots. Eventually I did replace them with Radiant enchantments, but not immediately, I didn't see the need.
And again on the disconnect and the AFK issues, none of us knows if a player intentionally disconnects after beginning a run or is disconnected through no fault of their own… None of us has any way to tell if a player is actually away from the keyboard, experiencing lag or other connectivity issues. Assuming that anyone who disconnects or isn’t moving is engaging in “sketchy behavior” is pure speculation on the part of the person making that assumption.
Seems to me a lot of what you keep calling "sketchy behavior" is still anyone not playing to your personal expectations – not wearing the gear you think they should have, not having the enchantments you think they should have, if they stopping to look around, check their inventory space, or even explore, that does not necessarily constitute “sketchy behavior” or any nefarious intent on their part.
Suggesting players be allowed to kick a player out of a dungeon before the set time, because someone presumes that other player is encaged in "sketchy behavior" is just a different kind of abuse as far as I'm concerned - there is always more than one way to "skin a cat" or consider an issue - if anyone makes the attempt to do so.
Not everyone is overly concerned with running their character as fast as they can, to get the AD's as quickly as they can, so they can do it all over again.
I have run a few low level toons recently so I can speak to why your gear might not be up to par without enchantments. At about 20th level I will use my AD and every 5 levels I buy my toon new rare (if I can get it) gear while my weapon and armor I change frequently. I don't bother with enchants because I don't want to spend the gold to pull them out.
As a very new player I just put on what I picked up, not even realizing I could buy better gear.
However, when a higher level player chooses to try to quickly run a dungeon, ignore chests and drops because most of that stuff is useless to them, that does not negate any other player's choice to, open chests, pick up drops or even stop and look around and explore if they want.
Again, no problem from this end if players "stop to smell the flowers", exploring wasn't described as sketchy behavior from this end, what was described as sketchy was sitting in the same spot(s) for quite some time and seem to be AFK. As previously mentioned:
When a player joins a RQ they should already be prepared (inventory space, seals aren't capped, etc.).
"Most" lower level items can be sold if they aren't upgrades, treasures stack and an additional bag is granted quite early in the game, 42 slots essentially before being able to queue for a normal dungeon, that's quite a bit of inventory space even for a brand new player that wants picks up everything.
The default bag is 30 slots. Adventurer's Pack, 12 slots (Blacklake District). Embroidered Bag of Holding, 12 slots (Benign Order Of The Third Eye). Adventurer's Knapsack, 18 slots (Neverdeath Graveyard).
What reason(s) would a lvl 30-40+ character have with empty equipment slots and or lower lvl common gear?
What reason would a level 30-40 character have for not having their enchantment slots filled or running with “common gear”?
Didn't mention enchantments... you did... and continued to elaborate on something you conjured so statements involving enchantments from you will be ignored.
If a player goes exploring to the corners of the queue and run into some mobs hopefully they can handle them, though mobs on and near the glowing path will be clear if in queue with a player/character from this end, fair enough.
If a player goes AFK/disconnects they have 5 minutes to "get right", after that time their fate rests in the hands of the rest of the group and if they are vote kicked it is well within reason. In skirmishes if the time is reduced to 2 minutes it would still be within reason.
Skirmishes essentially need participation from all group members to achieve better quality rewards (IG, PoM and TotDG). If a player is AFK/disconnects for whatever reason(s) they are NOT participating and their lack of participation hinders the effectiveness of the rest of the group (DPS, Tank, Buffs, etc.). 2 minutes is a long time in a longer skirmish (IG, PoM and TotDG), a LOT can/could happen during that time, 5 minutes, even more. 2 minutes is also a long time for a skirmish that takes around 5 minutes to complete (DL/MotH).
It was suggested in another thread that characters that are AFK/disconnected have their RAD rewards reduced based on the total amount of time they are in either of those states, fair enough since the time their character is in either of those states they are not participating/earning their reward. Such a system would standardize participation and personally would be willing to bet as a result "magically" there would be fewer illegitimate AFK/disconnected situations and or at least a reduction in the benefit from abuse.
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“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY "No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
I can fully understand why low level players would be upset and this is why I inspect and even ask at the start if they want to run fast or slow. I will respect their wish either way. The main reason I am like this is because I am a middle ground player neither high enough to run Tong due to my item level being below 15k .That being what other players feel is needed to run the end game stuff. I am sure I am not the only person that would love to earn my AD in other ways. But the game has been set up as this and I must earn my AD just like the rest. Till I am at a point that I can make the jump to the 15 k item level mark so I run random epic and below. So being in the middle one often catches flack from both sides . I follow a simple path. Be kind for eveyone is fighting a battle you know nothing about. Respect can take you a long way in life and in this game. This is just my view point it is not pointed toward anyone that has made a post before me. Good hunting.
Again, no problem from this end if players "stop to smell the flowers", exploring wasn't described as sketchy behavior from this end, what was described as sketchy was sitting in the same spot(s) for quite some time and seem to be AFK. As previously mentioned:
I'm confused, in your previous reply you mentioned about a player
as one of your defining examples of "sketchy behavior", but now you say you have no problem with a player who wants to "stop and smell the flowers" or explore.
If one player presumes another player is stopping too frequently or stopping too long, thus must be engaged in "sketchy behavior, again that is attempting to judge that player based on one's expectations of what they should or shouldn't be doing, which is why I suggested "perhaps someone should ask" why they are stopped, are wearing uncommon gear or don't have enchantments slotted instead of immediately jumping to the conclusion they are engaging in "sketchy behavior".
I used to quest with a friend who was totally color blind, so he would pick up every drop he could not wanting to pass up something that would be better than his gear, since he was color blind he couldn't tell the difference between common, uncommon, or rare gear based on the color he would have to wait to find a safe spot and read each item's description. The same with enchantments when they used to drop, often he would have to stop to read the descriptions of because he couldn't tell a yellow "radiant" from a blue "azure", and yes you can drop an azure into a radiant and vice-versa, but you used to get better refining points for refining radiant to radiant or azure to azure than just carelessly combining them… I know these things because when I saw him stopping frequently and for prolonged periods of time – so I asked him about it and he explained it.
Didn't mention enchantments... you did... and continued to elaborate on something you conjured so statements involving enchantments from you will be ignored.
And again referring to your previous post, did you not specifically mention
-lvl 60+ with common gear and empty slots
If you weren’t referring to enchantment slots, what "slots" were you referring to exactly?
If a player is disconnected beyond the allowed time period, yes other party members can vote to kick them out… but to suggest anyone who disconnects immediately after appearing in a dungeon is engaging in “sketchy behavior” – is still a judgment call based on one person’s supposition of why the other player is disconnected… but I agree, after a period of time their fate is in the hands of the other party members but since none of us have any to know if they are actually engaging in sketchy behavior or just the victim of circumstances beyond their control I'm usually inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt so I depending on the dungeon and circumstances, I probably won't vote to kick anyone out until we arrive at the last gate befort the final battle... but that's just me.
"Frequently stopping" is in reference to being AFK and or not considerably participating (stopping in areas where no mobs are/dropped items).
SB (sketchy behavior) was simply described.
From this end SB isn't an immediate presumption (other than disconnecting immediately at the start), any other presumptions come from/after observation (such as stopping repeatedly in mobless areas). A person can presume about another character though what they do from that point is something else, if no action based on any presumptions(s) is taken, essentially it's no harm no foul.
"empty slot" is in reference to missing items (head, neck, belt, etc.). There's very little positive reason for characters to be missing equipment at higher lvls, too many opportunities not to.
If anyone wants to type in chat to another player inquiring about their actions that is their choice, often enough players don't respond so questioning each player from this end doesn't happen for the most part. Don't really question players in general (especially in RQ's.
Immediate disconnects are sketchy not simply because of it happening, it is based on the vast amount of abusing characters that do it only to come back later in the run after the others in the group engage the content. There is only so much "benefit of the doubt" to go around because if all characters are given it all the time the abusers go unchecked. Since intentional and unintentional disconnects appear to be the same on the surface either the "system" punishes both cases or it does not. Both cases amount to the same thing though, no or very little participation and still being able to receive rewards, that's the concern, not simply a character being disconnected.
If rewards are reduced based on the amount of time being disconnected, AFK and or dead (occurs often enough in skirmishes like IG where characters die and simply remain dead) it would essentially remove/lower the concern other active members in the group may have. Pretty sure a number of people wouldn't agree/like if a co-worker came to work at the end of the shift and got paid the same (or more) as those that actually worked the entire shift. In regard to Neverwinter, a character(s) getting rewards/drops of equal or greater value than that of active group members when they didn't actively participate.
ALL Rights Reserved for any and all suggestions, ideas, etc. from this user.
“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY "No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
So again it is all about some HLP's wanting to get their AD's as quickly as possible, fine and good that's their choice…
However, when a higher level player chooses to try to quickly run a dungeon, ignore chests and drops because most of that stuff is useless to them, that does not negate any other player's choice to, open chests, pick up drops or even stop and look around and explore if they want.
What reason would a level 30-40 character have for not having their enchantment slots filled or running with “common gear”?
Seems to me a lot of what you keep calling "sketchy behavior" is still anyone not playing to your personal expectations – not wearing the gear you think they should have, not having the enchantments you think they should have, if they stopping to look around, check their inventory space, or even explore, that does not necessarily constitute “sketchy behavior” or any nefarious intent on their part.
Suggesting players be allowed to kick a player out of a dungeon before the set time, because someone presumes that other player is encaged in "sketchy behavior" is just a different kind of abuse as far as I'm concerned - there is always more than one way to "skin a cat" or consider an issue - if anyone makes the attempt to do so.
Not everyone is overly concerned with running their character as fast as they can, to get the AD's as quickly as they can, so they can do it all over again.
Here is the problem. Running a daily dungeon for AD is a job for many HLPs. Do they enjoy running these dungeons? Is there anything at all they need in there other than the AD from the end? Clearly the answer is no.
Would you ask your garbage men to go down the street slower, sweep up at every stop and wash everyone's garbage cans? It's their job, they have a schedule to keep, just like the HLPs in these dungeons.
Do they WANT to be there? NO. Were they forced there by Cryptic? Yes. Your issue should be with Cryptic. Expecting different behavior out of folks coerced into doing content they don't want to do is as much a losing proposition as expecting Cryptic to actually listen to their customers for once.
A high level dungeon runner, "garbage man" analogy... really?
But you are correct for some HLP’s the only reason they are running random dungeons is to get astral diamonds as quickly and easily as possible, and advanced apologies for having to repeat myself but no on is “forcing” anyone to run random dungeons despite repeated false claims to the contrary.
They may not enjoy doing it but repeatedly they continue to log on, queue for randoms and complain about it because it is quickest and easiest way of gathering their riches. One might think if some players don't actually enjoy their experience as they repeatedly claim they would quit running random dungeons.
I have repeatedly pointed out, there are other options for higher level players to get astral diamonds or gear that can be turned to astral diamonds… but those other options do necessitate a little more time and effort on their part to get those rewards so it seems it isn't about anyone being forced to do random dungeons to get astral diamonds as much as it appears to be about people choosing to take the quick and easy way to earn astral diamonds even though they try to claim they do not enjoy the experience, or try to falsely claim are being "forced" to do so.
I have no problem with HLP’s running low level dungeons, attempting to dominate those low level or complaining about lower level players, in those low level dungeons ‘inconveniencing them’ or not performing to their expectations is another matter.
The schedules many higher level players have to keep are self imposed schedules, like not only running their main characters through the random dungeons but also in some cases their many alternate characters.
I have never felt it has been about getting their astral diamond reward at the end of a dungeon as much as it appears to be about - getting as many astral diamonds as easily as possible – and then trying to trash or find fault in the very mechanism which gives them the opportunity to do so.
It all depends on how anyone chooses to consider it I suppose.
So again it is all about some HLP's wanting to get their AD's as quickly as possible, fine and good that's their choice…
However, when a higher level player chooses to try to quickly run a dungeon, ignore chests and drops because most of that stuff is useless to them, that does not negate any other player's choice to, open chests, pick up drops or even stop and look around and explore if they want.
What reason would a level 30-40 character have for not having their enchantment slots filled or running with “common gear”?
Perhaps you should have asked them instead of speculating they were engaging in “sketchy behavior”… I can’t answer for anyone else but I know I once took out my Azure enchantments because I didn’t want one of my characters to level up too quickly… no doubt what you would consider “sketchy behavior” since I didn’t have enchantments in my headpiece, bracers or boots. Eventually I did replace them with Radiant enchantments, but not immediately, I didn't see the need.
And again on the disconnect and the AFK issues, none of us knows if a player intentionally disconnects after beginning a run or is disconnected through no fault of their own… None of us has any way to tell if a player is actually away from the keyboard, experiencing lag or other connectivity issues. Assuming that anyone who disconnects or isn’t moving is engaging in “sketchy behavior” is pure speculation on the part of the person making that assumption.
Seems to me a lot of what you keep calling "sketchy behavior" is still anyone not playing to your personal expectations – not wearing the gear you think they should have, not having the enchantments you think they should have, if they stopping to look around, check their inventory space, or even explore, that does not necessarily constitute “sketchy behavior” or any nefarious intent on their part.
Suggesting players be allowed to kick a player out of a dungeon before the set time, because someone presumes that other player is encaged in "sketchy behavior" is just a different kind of abuse as far as I'm concerned - there is always more than one way to "skin a cat" or consider an issue - if anyone makes the attempt to do so.
Not everyone is overly concerned with running their character as fast as they can, to get the AD's as quickly as they can, so they can do it all over again.
"Frequently stopping" is in reference to being AFK and or not considerably participating (stopping in areas where no mobs are/dropped items).
SB (sketchy behavior) was simply described.
From this end SB isn't an immediate presumption (other than disconnecting immediately at the start), any other presumptions come from/after observation (such as stopping repeatedly in mobless areas). A person can presume about another character though what they do from that point is something else, if no action based on any presumptions(s) is taken, essentially it's no harm no foul.
"empty slot" is in reference to missing items (head, neck, belt, etc.). There's very little positive reason for characters to be missing equipment at higher lvls, too many opportunities not to.
If anyone wants to type in chat to another player inquiring about their actions that is their choice, often enough players don't respond so questioning each player from this end doesn't happen for the most part. Don't really question players in general (especially in RQ's.
Immediate disconnects are sketchy not simply because of it happening, it is based on the vast amount of abusing characters that do it only to come back later in the run after the others in the group engage the content. There is only so much "benefit of the doubt" to go around because if all characters are given it all the time the abusers go unchecked. Since intentional and unintentional disconnects appear to be the same on the surface either the "system" punishes both cases or it does not. Both cases amount to the same thing though, no or very little participation and still being able to receive rewards, that's the concern, not simply a character being disconnected.
If rewards are reduced based on the amount of time being disconnected, AFK and or dead (occurs often enough in skirmishes like IG where characters die and simply remain dead) it would essentially remove/lower the concern other active members in the group may have. Pretty sure a number of people wouldn't agree/like if a co-worker came to work at the end of the shift and got paid the same (or more) as those that actually worked the entire shift. In regard to Neverwinter, a character(s) getting rewards/drops of equal or greater value than that of active group members when they didn't actively participate.
Often enuff, it is difficult to keep up with the chat ( if you are high enuff level to have access to it ) if ou are running at top speed to catch up with a party that left you behind. While dodging the mobs they "forgot" to kill along the way. If you DO tyr to respond to a chat message while running at break-neck speed thru a dungeon... it leads to, among other things, running into walls, taking wrong turns, walking into an insta-kill zone, and other "sketchy behavior" that gets you labeled as a bot, & vote-kicked. Damned if you do...
"Frequently stopping" is in reference to being AFK and or not considerably participating (stopping in areas where no mobs are/dropped items).
SB (sketchy behavior) was simply described.
I believe your personal presumption of what constitutes sketchy behavior is what you posted... because obviously not everyone shares your description of what would be sketchy behavior.
Again, if someone frequently stops in areas where there are no mobs or dropped items, we come back to someone possibly just wanting to explore, stop and look around, explore or even "smell the roses" something you previously said you had no problem with, but it seems to me, you still have a problem with it.
And again how does any regular player actually know if another player is actually AFK, having lag or connectivity problems? Isn't that a judgment call one player makes based on their own expectations of how another player should be playing?
Yes, I too would oppose anyone intentionally going AFK and attempting to scam a run - but since I don't have any way of telling if that is actually the case I now tend to shrug it of as unimportant so long as it does not interfere with progression in the dungeon - not my ability to more quickly and easily accumulate astral diamonds.
I still believe it would be better to, as I suggested, worry less about how other players are playing and more about how we play.
"empty slot" is in reference to missing items (head, neck, belt, etc.). There's very little positive reason for characters to be missing equipment at higher lvls, too many opportunities not to.
Thanks for clearing that up, however as I mentioned I removed Azure enchantments from my head, arms and feet - which cost me a few coins to do so - if instead of paying to remove those enchantments, then replacing them, had I just taken those pieces of gear off I too would have had empty "gear" slots and according to the list you published, that constitutes "sketchy behavior", when it was actually just a choice I could have made.
Again a that looks like a presumption by one player about how another player should be geared or equipped instead of actual “sketchy behavior” - am I wrong?
There are undoubtedly people attempting to scam the game and there is nothing wrong with pointing out instances where someone things a player might be trying to take advantage of the randomness of the present content, but realistically we still have no way of telling if someone actually attempting to perpetrate a scam or that’s just how they choose to play, so mention it as feedback if you wish, turn it in as a problem if you feel you need to - and let the developers try to sort it out… incessantly complaining about the same kinds of thing, particularly things based on a person’s presumptions about how another person should be geared, progress or play serves little purpose in my opinion.
And ultimately if anyone is actually attempting to scam a dungeon run, a point you and I both seem agree on as not being right by the way, aside from taking names and submitting tickets there is little to be done about it - particularly since so much of what some people seem to presume is another player attempting to scam the game seems to boil down to little more than they aren't playing the way you think they should.
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therealprotexMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 526Arc User
A high level dungeon runner, "garbage man" analogy... really?
But you are correct for some HLP’s the only reason they are running random dungeons is to get astral diamonds as quickly and easily as possible, and advanced apologies for having to repeat myself but no on is “forcing” anyone to run random dungeons despite repeated false claims to the contrary.
They may not enjoy doing it but repeatedly they continue to log on, queue for randoms and complain about it because it is quickest and easiest way of gathering their riches. One might think if some players don't actually enjoy their experience as they repeatedly claim they would quit running random dungeons.
I have repeatedly pointed out, there are other options for higher level players to get astral diamonds or gear that can be turned to astral diamonds… but those other options do necessitate a little more time and effort on their part to get those rewards so it seems it isn't about anyone being forced to do random dungeons to get astral diamonds as much as it appears to be about people choosing to take the quick and easy way to earn astral diamonds even though they try to claim they do not enjoy the experience, or try to falsely claim are being "forced" to do so.
I have no problem with HLP’s running low level dungeons, attempting to dominate those low level or complaining about lower level players, in those low level dungeons ‘inconveniencing them’ or not performing to their expectations is another matter.
The schedules many higher level players have to keep are self imposed schedules, like not only running their main characters through the random dungeons but also in some cases their many alternate characters.
I have never felt it has been about getting their astral diamond reward at the end of a dungeon as much as it appears to be about - getting as many astral diamonds as easily as possible – and then trying to trash or find fault in the very mechanism which gives them the opportunity to do so.
It all depends on how anyone chooses to consider it I suppose.
In an ideal world where everybody does not only care about everyone's well being, but about everyone having fun as well, maybe you are right. But this is the real world and to be honest, I play this game (within its rules) so that I have fun. Sure, I also take care that some friends and guild mates have their share of fun as well, but to be honest, I don't give a HAMSTER about the fun of someone from the world's other end. And make no mistake, this is not a one-way street - people from there don't care about my fun either and rightly so. I am not responsible for anyone's fun in this game but for mine. Egoistic? Maybe. Sue me.
The LLPs are in the same situation with normal dungeons as HLPs are with TonG or MSP. Noone who is sane in their mind would PuG for TonG or MSP. (Most) HLPs have no other chance then enter the dungeons with a premade team. LLPs can still PuG reasonably for normal dungeons because the chance is high that a HLP joins their team. But if they expect the HLP joined because he mainly wants to help the LLP exploring the dungeon, then the LLP can not be more wrong. If a LLP really wants to explore and have a good dungeon experience, there is only one option: a premade team.
Again, thanks to Cryptic's choice to ignore community concerns (up to now) no LLP should expect a good dungeon experience with one or two HLPs in the team. Cryptic gave HLPs (as well as LLPs) the opportunity to make quick RADs with normal dungeons/skirmishes and even if there are other means to gain RADs, blaming HLPs to use this opportunity is just wrong. Blame Cryptic.
In an ideal world where everybody does not only care about everyone's well being, but about everyone having fun as well, maybe you are right. But this is the real world and to be honest, I play this game (within its rules) so that I have fun. Sure, I also take care that some friends and guild mates have their share of fun as well, but to be honest, I don't give a HAMSTER about the fun of someone from the world's other end. And make no mistake, this is not a one-way street - people from there don't care about my fun either and rightly so. I am not responsible for anyone's fun in this game but for mine. Egoistic? Maybe. Sue me.
I don't think anyone is suggesting it is your responsibility to ensure everyone is having fun. Mostly they are suggesting treating people, even strangers, with human decency and respect.
The way you do that in a PUG dungeon run is if you are running ahead, fine, clear the mobs on the way. If the slowest player is running their toon at top speed then they are doing their part. Or hang back with the slowest member of the party and run together. If someone is wondering off exploring and not staying with the party then they are breaking the social contract, not you.
Now granted these comments are for regular dungeons. If you are running epics, you better have your HAMSTER together. And bots or others "gaming" the runs, screw them.
If rewards are reduced based on the amount of time being disconnected, AFK and or dead (occurs often enough in skirmishes like IG where characters die and simply remain dead)
Pretty sure a number of people wouldn't agree/like if a co-worker came to work at the end of the shift and got paid the same (or more) as those that actually worked the entire shift. In regard to Neverwinter, a character(s) getting rewards/drops of equal or greater value than that of active group members when they didn't actively participate.
A system such as that would seemingly handle the AFK, "disconnected" and characters that remain dead and be quite fair to all, if a character(s) are not actively participating why should they be entitled to the same or greater rewards than those that actively participated? Because they can simply justify things by stating "I had to XYZ", "my internet connection is bad", etc., etc.? Reducing their rewards doesn't necessarily handle the time factor though it can/will handle the concerns of players that feel that others are/can be taking advantage of their efforts/abusing the game with no penalty (rejoining at the end, etc.).
No matter the reason(s) a character isn't actively participating they are STILL not participating and their rewards should reflect that, it's only fair. Players essentially wouldn't really have to concern themselves with the actions of others because the system would handle it accordingly.
"stopping to smell the roses" is still considered questionable behavior especially when compared to the activity of bots. Bots frequently stop because the manner in which they operate pretty much requires it so that they can function properly (stopping to adjust, calculate, etc.). Does this mean that all characters that stop frequently are bots, of course not though that particular kind of behavior can be considered bot-like and be within reason. Again if a character is consistently making progress towards the end it is much better than one that is sitting in one spot AFK and or disconnected from the start and reconnecting at/near the end of the run.
And again how does any regular player actually know if another player is actually AFK, having lag or connectivity problems? Isn't that a judgment call one player makes based on their own expectations of how another player should be playing?
No.
Reason being it's simply a judgment call based on what that particular character is/isn't doing (at least that is how it is done from this end). If a person has no pulse, heartbeat, cold skin, non-responsive, etc. and after multiple attempts to resuscitate nothing changes could it reasonably be inferred that they are dead? Essentially the same thing with Neverwinter the difference being players can't get the same kind of "confirmations" simply by using chat. If a character is sitting in one spot for a considerable amount of time can it reasonably be inferred that they are AFK?
so long as it does not interfere with progression in the dungeon
That is exactly what happens with AFK players...
A slow moving character, even if they stop frequently is making progress while a character simply sitting in one spot isn't, that's the difference. If they are having connection issues and everyone else isn't they are still preventing the progress of the rest of the group even though it isn't intentional. For the most part HLP's want to complete RQ's as fast as possible (some more than others), if a character is sitting there AFK, "fast as possible" isn't determined by the speed of the slowest moving character, it is then determined by the AFK character.
If you go to work to pick up your check so you can go pay bills and the store isn't open on time because the manager hasn't arrived, the manager not arriving on time for whatever reason(s) is preventing you from doing what you were to be doing had the manager arrived on time. Of course if something reasonable and beyond the control of the manager happened and it helped prevent them from arriving on time that could/would be taken into consideration though the fact of the matter still remains that they didn't arrive on time which prevented you from doing what you would have been doing otherwise. Essentially the same with Neverwinter, two characters at the "gather your party" circle while a character is AFK at the start is preventing them from continuing, not a slower moving character, even a slow moving character would be more acceptable than an AFK one.
ALL Rights Reserved for any and all suggestions, ideas, etc. from this user.
“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY "No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
Your responses include various "what if's " ("exceptions"), no problem there, there can be "exceptions" though to have "exceptions" there has to be standards/rules. "Exceptions" was put in quotes because what you tend to state in argument aren't actually exceptions, they are just changes to the conditions.
Yes there can be players with empty item slots and or common rarity items at higher levels. The standard is increasingly better equipment is frequently available through quests and or drops. A character not being better equipped at higher levels is simply because of the choices the player has made along the way to deviate from it and a player choosing to remain under-equipped effects the quality of the team they are grouped with when they RQ.
Again a that looks like a presumption by one player about how another player should be geared or equipped instead of actual “sketchy behavior” - am I wrong?
Quite wrong.
Reason being a lvl 60+ character should be equipped to at least the minimum standard available, again too many opportunities not to be. A character not even equipped in a manner near/close to that available at that level range effects the quality of a RQ group they are placed in. If nothing else after 1 maybe 2 RQ's a lvl 60 should be able to be outfitted fully (not including artifacts), if not the reason is because they player simply chose not to, not because they can't. If you see someone with the features/qualities of a female you would reasonably expect them to be a female. Same with Neverwinter, if you see a lvl 60+ character you would expect them to be roughly equipped like one.
Again there is essentially no positive reason(s) a lvl 60+ character would have missing items (head, neck, belt, arms, rings) and common lower level equipment. If a player doesn't have gold to remove enchantments why would they just remove the entire item and not replace it with something else instead of leaving it equipped?
Yes a player can be having internet connection issues.
Perfect World Entertainment Terms of Service 3. Description 3.1 PWE provides free-to-play, multi-player online Games to registered users and related features, functions and services available through the Website, such as community forums and other interactive areas. To access our Games, you may be required to download and install certain client software, and such access entails the use of hardware, software and Internet access (which you acknowledge play a crucial role in your user experience). 3.2 You agree that we are not responsible for any hardware, software or Internet access, quality, suitability or unavailability issues. We do not provide Internet access, and you are responsible for all fees relating to telephone and Internet access charges along with all necessary equipment, servicing, repair or correction incurred in maintaining connectivity to the servers.
The standard is having a stable internet connection which is important to your own experience as well as others. If a player has internet issues it is their responsibility (as stated above) and to sort it out with their ISP as best they can (personally would argue a lower rate due to internet issues which is within reason since when a person pays for a service they expect to receive that service). When you play alone internet issues essentially only effect you, though when you play in a group they effect others as well in negative ways and amounts to the same thing, no/less participation and full rewards.
What has been previously described as SB in part at least has been described and or mentioned by others, it indicates that some others as well have determined/see particular behavior as being abusive and a number of these "behaviors" is supported by reasonable information. Everyone doesn't have to share what can/does constitute as SB it for it to be valid especially when it is supported reasonably. Based on what has been previously described a number of actions, decisions and or systems could be developed to help alleviate repeat issues.
Similar to a court of law, the jurors don't state that the defendant is guilty, it is stated something similar to "based on the evidence we find the defendant guilty", it doesn't necessarily mean that they are guilty, it means that from the evidence presented it could logically be inferred that they are. In regard to Neverwinter, based on particular actions/non-actions logical and reasonable conclusions can be made rather than simply giving everyone the benefit of the doubt in seemingly each and every case as your statements can allude to.
because obviously not everyone shares your description of what would be sketchy behavior.
Not all players/characters have positive intentions, some simply do the bare minimum for rewards, period.
You can't effectively state "not everyone shares your description..." then turn around and essentially state to give everyone a pass because we don't know for sure what's going on. You can't effectively state that there are players that abuse the game then turn around and state that we don't know for sure who is and who isn't AND counter argue those that are providing information on behavior that can seem legitimate though also be used to abuse the game/others.
There are undoubtedly people attempting to scam the game and there is nothing wrong with pointing out instances where someone things a player might be trying to take advantage of the randomness of the present content, but realistically we still have no way of telling if someone actually attempting to perpetrate a scam or that’s just how they choose to play, so mention it as feedback if you wish, turn it in as a problem if you feel you need to - and let the developers try to sort it out…
Then turn around and contradict those that are providing feedback to try and help alleviate repeat issues by suggesting a system(s) can effectively draw a line between legitimate and abusing players, none of those contradicting counter arguments are logical nor reasonable, they simply provide an endless loop where abusing players can pass as legitimate players. Then there are some players trying to close that loop.
If someone breaks into your home would you be sitting there trying to give them the benefit of the doubt as to why they did or would you be taking action to protect your family?
Translation
If a character(s) seem to be abusing the game and the effort of others would you just give them the benefit of the doubt in every case as to why they appear to be doing so or would you describe instances where particular behavior can/is seen as sketchy behavior so that adjustments to the system can be made to prevent/lower the effectiveness of abuse?
worry less about how other players are playing and more about how we play.
Even when doing so players are STILL effected by the actions/non-actions of other characters which can be/is a problem. The relevancy of your "let players do them" statements ceases to exist when it unreasonably affects/hinders the outcomes of other players. HLP's wanting to RQ as fast as possible are reasonably slowed down by LLP's, they are unreasonably slowed down by AFK players/characters.
In a relay race if someone on your team gets the baton and just stands there your team loses not because they ran slower than others but because they didn't run at all (please insert some sort of reason as to why they didn't run which would actually cancel the results of the race, prompting a do over). In Neverwinter it's essentially the same thing, the content can't be completed because a character is AFK (no matter the reason).
ALL Rights Reserved for any and all suggestions, ideas, etc. from this user.
“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY "No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
Actually unless a player is away from the keyboard when everyone else arrives at the final gate before the last battle, about the only thing it does is keep active players from being able to open that gate, complete the final battle and get their reward... and since when queuing for a random dungeon it states the “estimated play time is 30 minutes” and a truly inactive player can be kicked out much sooner than that, it seems to me the primary complaint about lower level players remains those slower and lower level, slow or opined 'inadequately geared' players is hindering higher level players from running leveling dungeons “as fast as possible” – to use your own words.
So once again it appears you are speaking from your personal perspective as a higher level player who seems to be primarily interested in accumulating as much in game wealth as possible – as quickly as possible – and objecting to anyone or any thing that hampers that ability. I myself as a level 70 player have no such complaints so obviously your opinion is not shared by every higher level, or level 70 player.
Actually unless a player is away from the keyboard when everyone else arrives at the final gate before the last battle, about the only thing it does is keep active players from being able to open that gate, complete the final battle and get their reward...
Exactly, which is the point LoL
Had the character(s) not been AFK the group could have either already started the final area or a slower moving character(s) could have been making their way towards the gate so that the final area could be entered.
it seems to me the primary complaint about lower level players remains those slower and lower level, slow or opined 'inadequately geared' players is hindering higher level players from running leveling dungeons “as fast as possible” – to use your own words.
Correction:
AFK characters and or characters exhibiting negative behavior beyond a considerable degree.
Slower characters are more acceptable than AFK players, you can see the progress of a slower character, an AFK character shows no progress. "As fast as possible" means exactly what it means, a group can only complete the queue as fast as the slowest member reaches the final gate = "As fast as possible". It is not possible to complete a NDRQ (normal dungeon random queue) faster than the slowest member can make it to the final gate unless they are vote-kicked which currently takes about 5 minutes or more to be available and even the slowest, frequent "flower smelling" characters can make it to the gate around that time, especially when the mobs on the path are cleared for them.
Again, personally mobs on and around the path are cleared for any slower moving character(s). With that being stated if a run takes longer due to a slower moving character, fine, though if it is slowed down simply due to a AFK character they are reported and a reasonably determined vote-kick may be initiated ASAP, fair enough. If the character is slow moving AND exhibiting SB beyond a considerable degree (multiple things are taken into consideration), they are reported and if they become AFK for more than a considerable amount of time a reasonably determined vote-kick may be initiated, fair enough.
and objecting to anyone or any thing that hampers that ability.
False.
Have clearly stated multiple times that slower characters personally are fine for the most part, AFK characters reasonably are not. If the people controlling them are having internet connection issues that is unfortunate for them though it is also unfortunate for the rest of the group and they can't continue through no fault of their own.
What you are seemingly arguing is that the "supposed" internet connection issues of a character should be able to effect the rest of the group only leaving them with the option to vote-kick (which doesn't always succeed) or abandon the instance and receive a queue penalty. At least if a character that is AFK, disconnected, or simply remains dead has their rewards reduced they would no longer simply be able to fully benefit from the efforts of the rest of the group whether intentional or unintentional, fair enough.
I myself as a level 70 player have no such complaints so obviously your opinion is not shared by every higher level, or level 70 player.
You are one player...
You simply not having/sharing such complaints, thoughts, feelings, etc. and even if a lot of others don't either it STILL does not invalidate those that do share them...
With your consistent "shielding" of such behavior it can be reasonably inferred that you may not have interest in suppressing abusive behavior. Hmmm...
There are a number of players that have issues with characters abusing the game for their own benefit, a number of them have posted here, a LOT more have not. If you go back through the previous pages you will see about 10 people that have posted "discontent" with LLP's not simply because they are LLP's but because of what they are/are not doing (intentionally hanging back, purposely not entering the end gate circle, being AFK, etc.)... The forums are not a reliable "consensus" of the player base. Even if there is only a handful (actually there is considerably much more than that) of players that have an issue with abusive behavior their position is still valid, not only logically and reasonably but also because abusing the game and others is against the rules.
To bring something else to light have you ever seen a HLC (higher level character) and a LLC (lower level character) from the same account? No?
Personally a number of times have seen HLC's and some time later one or more LLC's from the same account. If a player has a 12k+ (sometimes 14k+) decked out character and the other characters on the account running RQ's are of various lower ilvls, common gear quality, missing items, etc. what does that suggest? Apparently the player is familiar enough with the game to achieve such a high ilvl on at least one character... Could it not be reasonably inferred that that player(s) is/very well could be abusing the game/other players by intentionally keeping their other characters under geared?
Personally have seen 12k+ DPS characters (14k+ as well) get outperformed by a character less than half their ilvl (twice as much DPS or more) in skirmishes (IG, PoM, TotDG), sometimes they are the same class, what can be reasonably inferred from those instances? Bad internet connection in each and every case?
ALL Rights Reserved for any and all suggestions, ideas, etc. from this user.
“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY "No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
Trying to discuss something with you is like watching a snake trying to bite it's own tail...
First you say you have no problems with players who stop to explore or "smell the roses" - then you claim that players who frequently stop are engaging in "sketchy behavior" and now you're back to claiming you have no problem with players who steadly progress to the final gate but if they stop moving you again claim they are AFK - even though you have no way to actually know that... there is no debating that or the rest of your circuar non-logic.
At any rate there is a built in and now working mechanism that enables active players to remove players who have been inactive for a period of time... if you can't kick them out quick enough to your satisfaction, that's not a problem with the game or the kick mechanism.
Due to the manner in which you re-visit past arguments, apply other/new things to them and or take statements out of context the conditions of previous statements changes therefore the applicable ones are elaborated on (from this end). You claim it to be "circuar non-logic" when it is you that creates the circles in the first place and seemingly tries to force things into them...
It's like asking someone do they like scrambled eggs, they reply yes, then you ask them do they like pickles, they reply yes then you make a statement that it also means that they must like scrambled eggs mixed with pickles as well then when they correct you and clarify that they don't like both together you go back and quote what they stated before and state that they are going around in circles...
When a person changes the conditions that previous statements were made in responses would need to be allowed to be elaborated on to maintain clarity. You can't change the conditions on the fly and expect others not to elaborate on their previous statements just so your argument can appear to be valid, that isn't fair, hopefully you know that.
Will attempt to break down some previous statements.
- Personally don't have a problem with characters that "smell the roses" though it is dependant upon how much they do it. - If a character frequently "smells the roses" by stopping in areas where no loot could be present because mobs are not there in the first place that behavior is then considered sketchy though still don't have a problem with it because they are still making progress to the end. - If a character that frequently "smells the roses" becomes AFK and after a considerable amount of time and they are still AFK, THEN it is considered a problem.
In Neverwinter if a character hasn't moved for a considerable amount of time it is SAFE to surmise they are AFK, period, if you don't agree with that for whatever reason(s) it doesn't make that statement false. If you want to argue that the character could be having connection issues that's fine though your argument doesn't invalidate a player surmising that they are AFK when they actually haven't moved after a while. Players themselves can't reliably test the AFK status of another character though they can base whether or not to initiate a vote kick based upon it not moving for a while.
Scenario:A character hasn't moved for 3 minutes in a 3 man queue.
Because it hasn't moved for a considerable amount of time another player states that they are AFK, seemingly you would argue that they "could be" having connection issues, what does that matter, they appear to be AFK. Yes a player could be sitting at the controls having connection issues though based on the circumstances they are considered to be AFK, fair enough, not seeing why you would argue against such clear logic and reasoning.
Personally becoming more concerned about your hypothetical arguments and or reasons as to why a character could be behaving in one way or another being treated as substantiality and acting as if they carry equal/more weight than actual non-hypothetical things that have actual substantiality.
To hopefully drive it home, in regard to the options on the vote-kick menu for AFK and disconnected, NEITHER option includes "appears to be" they clearly and simply read "Away from Keyboard" and "Disconnected/Offline"... It is implied that whatever character being reported has exhibited signs of the offense selected. When a character is stated/described to be exhibiting SB here on the forums it is implied that it has exhibited questionable behavior (such as previously described) to the extent that the statement could be reasonably/comfortably made.
they have 5 minutes to "get right", after that time their fate rests in the hands of the rest of the group and if they are vote kicked it is well within reason.
ALL Rights Reserved for any and all suggestions, ideas, etc. from this user.
“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY "No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
Arguing about this is pointless. Any HLP doing leveling dungeons is there strictly for the AD so do not expect them to care about anything other then that - they do not want to be playing that content but are forced to. I myself fall into this category and the feelings of new players are of no concern to me. I know exactly how long these dungeons take with every possible class, level and gear - if you are taking an unreasonably long time to run through the dungeon i have completely cleared for you or you have the temerity to afk for whatever reason without apologizing when you return then i am either kicking you instantly or leaving and not logging in again. My time is valuable to me, your feelings are not.
Cryptic has killed epic dungeon rewards to the point that running random leveling dungeons on multiple characters 8 times out of 10 produces double the AD reward an on-level epic dungeon will give. Sleepwalk through a leveling dungeon for guaranteed AD or bash your head against a T2 dungeon while cursing the 3 bosses that just died without dropping even a peridot and the chest that never awards more than a ring worth half of what you would have gotten in the leveling dungeon assuming you have the VIP to pay for the key? Who in their right mind would choose option B if option A is on the table?
Don't blame the players for the failures of the company.
2
greywyndMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 7,150Arc User
Arguing about this is pointless. Any HLP doing leveling dungeons is there strictly for the AD so do not expect them to care about anything other then that - they do not want to be playing that content but are forced to. I myself fall into this category and the feelings of new players are of no concern to me. I know exactly how long these dungeons take with every possible class, level and gear - if you are taking an unreasonably long time to run through the dungeon i have completely cleared for you or you have the temerity to afk for whatever reason without apologizing when you return then i am either kicking you instantly or leaving and not logging in again. My time is valuable to me, your feelings are not.
Cryptic has killed epic dungeon rewards to the point that running random leveling dungeons on multiple characters 8 times out of 10 produces double the AD reward an on-level epic dungeon will give. Sleepwalk through a leveling dungeon for guaranteed AD or bash your head against a T2 dungeon while cursing the 3 bosses that just died without dropping even a peridot and the chest that never awards more than a ring worth half of what you would have gotten in the leveling dungeon assuming you have the VIP to pay for the key? Who in their right mind would choose option B if option A is on the table?
Don't blame the players for the failures of the company.
I disagree with the bulk of this. I am a HLP across all my characters. Not all of them have yet unlocked the ability to do epics. Campaigns take time.
I will work with the LLPs that are in a dungeon. I have been in a dungeon where a speed-runner wanted to kick a LLP simply because they could not keep up. THAT behavior is wrong.
I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
Comments
Pretty sure if someone took that post seriously (as in agreed and or supported it) it wouldn't have been framed as a joke after the fact... LoL
“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY
"No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
Ongoing Issue: Legitmate Players Banned for Botting (Console) and the Future for "Dedicated" Players
Suggestions: (Implemented) \/\/ Rearrange Character on character Select Screen
Ok, I’ll bite... WTF are you trying to say?
Please keep in mind, I’m only asking for one reply... I’ll not be the cause of yet one more pathetic trinity thread derailment, so this will be my last post on this thread
The morbid curiosity is eating at me, though
Read this twice. Let it sink in.
Additionally, some of the same people saying the low levels slow them down, so they should be able to fend for themselves or leave would be the same people to scream and yell if an elite team left them behind in an end game dungeon or didn't pick them up fast enough when they died.
It's the same exact thing.
Clearing the path ahead isn't abandoning LLP's, skipping mobs for them to fight is though (mobs that are along the glowing path).
Some of the complaints in this thread include LLP's with sketchy behavior. Being a LLP isn't necessarily an issue, yes there are players that would prefer if you moved faster though consistently moving towards the end is a better look.
Though sometimes LLP's travel off the glowing path and start exploring/fighting mobs that are tucked away in corners...
That is something that seemingly has yet to be expressed in this thread. Pretty sure in a number of cases where players complain about other group members "leaving mobs behind for me to fight" this is what is happening (traveling off the glowing path). Personally sometimes when the new player message pops up the long way is taken and or mobs slightly off the glowing path are taken care of (for the most part the further off mobs are left) just in case it is an actual new player that hasn't been in the content before and they explore (rather than a new character of an experienced player).
LLP's can and do slow down other players though the ones that are actually participating are far more acceptable than the ones that are LLP's because the person in charge of them intentionally keeps them as a LLP by not upgrading their equipment and or intentionally does not participate by going AFK/disconnecting, etc.
In end game content (which is a different category) everyone has to pull their weight or things get dicey for the most part though if players go down there there are things like scrolls to get them back in the fight. Personally it is expected for players to have scrolls, sometimes even asked before queuing how many scrolls everyone has and if anyone answers "none" and or takes offense to being asked the group can be dropped. Scrolls are not cheap over tine and not going to carry a full group because they don't want to spend for scrolls to help the group survive the content. Having that kind of mentality is similar to if the not the same as a player expecting to be carried through RQ's.
“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY
"No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
Ongoing Issue: Legitmate Players Banned for Botting (Console) and the Future for "Dedicated" Players
Suggestions: (Implemented) \/\/ Rearrange Character on character Select Screen
Running ahead and clearing the mobs also denies those players following an opportunity to participate in the dungeon content, I don't agree that staying beside them and allowing them to participate in battles "essentially produces the same result" - at least not for those new, lower level or slower players. Dungeon content consists of more than running from point "A" to point "B" collecting the astral diamonds and leaving even if someone has already run that same content dozens of times and doesn't care about drops, chests, or exploring.
Yes there have been many complaints about lower level players and what you call their undefined "sketchy behavior"... but then isn't their behavior only considered "sketchy" if a player disagrees with their play style, or suspects (but how could we know for sure) they may be scamming?
Moving slowly through a dungeon is not sketchy behavior - it's a choice, choosing to fight as many mobs as a player can find, even off the path and in tucked away corners is not sketchy behavior - it is a choice, exploring, taking time to open chests, picking up drops, etc. likewise isn't sketchy behavior - that too is a choice.
The only sketchy behaviour I can think of is for someone to intentionally disconnect or walk away from the keyboard in the middle of play...
But realistically how can anyone know if a player intentionally disconnects or goes AFK -vs- having lag or connectivity issues?
Exploring, going of the path, and fighting mobs tucked away in corners is something I believe every more experienced, higher level player has had the opportunity to do at one timer or another as they were leveling up... So why is this suddenly an issue for them when other players want to do it?
As previously mentioned LLP's will be able to participate how when grouped with HLP's that can one/few shot mobs and even if they stick close to the LLP's? Very little? "Unfortunately" the trade off for them not being able to participate is faster RAD. And again, as previously mentioned if LLP's want to participate in content a pre-formed at level group will give them just that, an at level experience.
The game overall has many things to do and a number of players skip a number of those things so queues are no different...
Sketchy behavior is sketchy behavior. If you are walking around during the evening time an see someone off to the side in the shadows does that mean they are up to no good, not necessarily, though if you feel that they are it is well within reason. Same with Neverwinter if you see a character:
- lvl 60+ with common gear and empty slots.
- frequently stopping.
- disconnecting immediately at the start.
- AFK
- not considerably participating (for example 12k+ DPS being out DPS'ed by a 7k character).
- etc.
It is all sketchy behavior and if a vote-vote is initiated due to those above things it is within reason. If a LLP has a vote-kick against them initiated it is for a reason, whether it is a selfish one or due to their own negative behavior is up to the initiator.
What reason(s) would a lvl 30-40+ character have with empty equipment slots and or lower lvl common gear? As previously mentioned quests grant higher and higher lvl/quality equipment (as well as queues themselves) which indicates (not proves) that the character isn't for effectively participating. Also the less a character in a group is doing the more the others have to do, also as previously mentioned being AFK/disconnected means a character isn't participating at all, whether it is intentional or not matters less. If a character disconnects immediately and doesn't return until the end/if at all that is sketchy as well. It's not the players' job to determine who is legitimate or not, they can only judge their behavior and respond accordingly.
Giving sketchy behavior a pass simply because the players themselves can't necessarily prove otherwise just opens the door for abuse which the game currently has more than enough of already. That's what reports are for, so CS will hopefully investigate, hmm this account has been reported X number of times in a short amount of time for YX. Vote kicks have a reason attached and they are logged.
If LLP's want to explore personally it is fine. No real issue with that here, it's the ones that, disconnect, AFK and don't even try to participate.
It depends on the player if they explore/explored, if a player is familiar with MMO's they know the low level stuff isn't worth much and going out of one's way to acquire them may or may not be worth it. Personally didn't join a group on the first character until Elemental Evil campaign, even after didn't/don't run around queues picking this and that for the most part (especially lower level ones).
“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY
"No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
Ongoing Issue: Legitmate Players Banned for Botting (Console) and the Future for "Dedicated" Players
Suggestions: (Implemented) \/\/ Rearrange Character on character Select Screen
However, when a higher level player chooses to try to quickly run a dungeon, ignore chests and drops because most of that stuff is useless to them, that does not negate any other player's choice to, open chests, pick up drops or even stop and look around and explore if they want.
What reason would a level 30-40 character have for not having their enchantment slots filled or running with “common gear”?
Perhaps you should have asked them instead of speculating they were engaging in “sketchy behavior”… I can’t answer for anyone else but I know I once took out my Azure enchantments because I didn’t want one of my characters to level up too quickly… no doubt what you would consider “sketchy behavior” since I didn’t have enchantments in my headpiece, bracers or boots. Eventually I did replace them with Radiant enchantments, but not immediately, I didn't see the need.
And again on the disconnect and the AFK issues, none of us knows if a player intentionally disconnects after beginning a run or is disconnected through no fault of their own… None of us has any way to tell if a player is actually away from the keyboard, experiencing lag or other connectivity issues. Assuming that anyone who disconnects or isn’t moving is engaging in “sketchy behavior” is pure speculation on the part of the person making that assumption.
Seems to me a lot of what you keep calling "sketchy behavior" is still anyone not playing to your personal expectations – not wearing the gear you think they should have, not having the enchantments you think they should have, if they stopping to look around, check their inventory space, or even explore, that does not necessarily constitute “sketchy behavior” or any nefarious intent on their part.
Suggesting players be allowed to kick a player out of a dungeon before the set time, because someone presumes that other player is encaged in "sketchy behavior" is just a different kind of abuse as far as I'm concerned - there is always more than one way to "skin a cat" or consider an issue - if anyone makes the attempt to do so.
Not everyone is overly concerned with running their character as fast as they can, to get the AD's as quickly as they can, so they can do it all over again.
As a very new player I just put on what I picked up, not even realizing I could buy better gear.
The default bag is 30 slots.
Adventurer's Pack, 12 slots (Blacklake District).
Embroidered Bag of Holding, 12 slots (Benign Order Of The Third Eye).
Adventurer's Knapsack, 18 slots (Neverdeath Graveyard). Didn't ask: Didn't mention enchantments... you did... and continued to elaborate on something you conjured so statements involving enchantments from you will be ignored.
If a player goes exploring to the corners of the queue and run into some mobs hopefully they can handle them, though mobs on and near the glowing path will be clear if in queue with a player/character from this end, fair enough.
If a player goes AFK/disconnects they have 5 minutes to "get right", after that time their fate rests in the hands of the rest of the group and if they are vote kicked it is well within reason. In skirmishes if the time is reduced to 2 minutes it would still be within reason.
Skirmishes essentially need participation from all group members to achieve better quality rewards (IG, PoM and TotDG). If a player is AFK/disconnects for whatever reason(s) they are NOT participating and their lack of participation hinders the effectiveness of the rest of the group (DPS, Tank, Buffs, etc.). 2 minutes is a long time in a longer skirmish (IG, PoM and TotDG), a LOT can/could happen during that time, 5 minutes, even more. 2 minutes is also a long time for a skirmish that takes around 5 minutes to complete (DL/MotH).
It was suggested in another thread that characters that are AFK/disconnected have their RAD rewards reduced based on the total amount of time they are in either of those states, fair enough since the time their character is in either of those states they are not participating/earning their reward. Such a system would standardize participation and personally would be willing to bet as a result "magically" there would be fewer illegitimate AFK/disconnected situations and or at least a reduction in the benefit from abuse.
“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY
"No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
Ongoing Issue: Legitmate Players Banned for Botting (Console) and the Future for "Dedicated" Players
Suggestions: (Implemented) \/\/ Rearrange Character on character Select Screen
If one player presumes another player is stopping too frequently or stopping too long, thus must be engaged in "sketchy behavior, again that is attempting to judge that player based on one's expectations of what they should or shouldn't be doing, which is why I suggested "perhaps someone should ask" why they are stopped, are wearing uncommon gear or don't have enchantments slotted instead of immediately jumping to the conclusion they are engaging in "sketchy behavior".
I used to quest with a friend who was totally color blind, so he would pick up every drop he could not wanting to pass up something that would be better than his gear, since he was color blind he couldn't tell the difference between common, uncommon, or rare gear based on the color he would have to wait to find a safe spot and read each item's description. The same with enchantments when they used to drop, often he would have to stop to read the descriptions of because he couldn't tell a yellow "radiant" from a blue "azure", and yes you can drop an azure into a radiant and vice-versa, but you used to get better refining points for refining radiant to radiant or azure to azure than just carelessly combining them… I know these things because when I saw him stopping frequently and for prolonged periods of time – so I asked him about it and he explained it. And again referring to your previous post, did you not specifically mention If you weren’t referring to enchantment slots, what "slots" were you referring to exactly?
If a player is disconnected beyond the allowed time period, yes other party members can vote to kick them out… but to suggest anyone who disconnects immediately after appearing in a dungeon is engaging in “sketchy behavior” – is still a judgment call based on one person’s supposition of why the other player is disconnected… but I agree, after a period of time their fate is in the hands of the other party members but since none of us have any to know if they are actually engaging in sketchy behavior or just the victim of circumstances beyond their control I'm usually inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt so I depending on the dungeon and circumstances, I probably won't vote to kick anyone out until we arrive at the last gate befort the final battle... but that's just me.
SB (sketchy behavior) was simply described.
From this end SB isn't an immediate presumption (other than disconnecting immediately at the start), any other presumptions come from/after observation (such as stopping repeatedly in mobless areas). A person can presume about another character though what they do from that point is something else, if no action based on any presumptions(s) is taken, essentially it's no harm no foul.
"empty slot" is in reference to missing items (head, neck, belt, etc.). There's very little positive reason for characters to be missing equipment at higher lvls, too many opportunities not to.
If anyone wants to type in chat to another player inquiring about their actions that is their choice, often enough players don't respond so questioning each player from this end doesn't happen for the most part. Don't really question players in general (especially in RQ's.
Immediate disconnects are sketchy not simply because of it happening, it is based on the vast amount of abusing characters that do it only to come back later in the run after the others in the group engage the content. There is only so much "benefit of the doubt" to go around because if all characters are given it all the time the abusers go unchecked. Since intentional and unintentional disconnects appear to be the same on the surface either the "system" punishes both cases or it does not. Both cases amount to the same thing though, no or very little participation and still being able to receive rewards, that's the concern, not simply a character being disconnected.
If rewards are reduced based on the amount of time being disconnected, AFK and or dead (occurs often enough in skirmishes like IG where characters die and simply remain dead) it would essentially remove/lower the concern other active members in the group may have. Pretty sure a number of people wouldn't agree/like if a co-worker came to work at the end of the shift and got paid the same (or more) as those that actually worked the entire shift. In regard to Neverwinter, a character(s) getting rewards/drops of equal or greater value than that of active group members when they didn't actively participate.
“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY
"No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
Ongoing Issue: Legitmate Players Banned for Botting (Console) and the Future for "Dedicated" Players
Suggestions: (Implemented) \/\/ Rearrange Character on character Select Screen
Would you ask your garbage men to go down the street slower, sweep up at every stop and wash everyone's garbage cans? It's their job, they have a schedule to keep, just like the HLPs in these dungeons.
Do they WANT to be there? NO. Were they forced there by Cryptic? Yes. Your issue should be with Cryptic. Expecting different behavior out of folks coerced into doing content they don't want to do is as much a losing proposition as expecting Cryptic to actually listen to their customers for once.
But you are correct for some HLP’s the only reason they are running random dungeons is to get astral diamonds as quickly and easily as possible, and advanced apologies for having to repeat myself but no on is “forcing” anyone to run random dungeons despite repeated false claims to the contrary.
They may not enjoy doing it but repeatedly they continue to log on, queue for randoms and complain about it because it is quickest and easiest way of gathering their riches. One might think if some players don't actually enjoy their experience as they repeatedly claim they would quit running random dungeons.
I have repeatedly pointed out, there are other options for higher level players to get astral diamonds or gear that can be turned to astral diamonds… but those other options do necessitate a little more time and effort on their part to get those rewards so it seems it isn't about anyone being forced to do random dungeons to get astral diamonds as much as it appears to be about people choosing to take the quick and easy way to earn astral diamonds even though they try to claim they do not enjoy the experience, or try to falsely claim are being "forced" to do so.
I have no problem with HLP’s running low level dungeons, attempting to dominate those low level or complaining about lower level players, in those low level dungeons ‘inconveniencing them’ or not performing to their expectations is another matter.
The schedules many higher level players have to keep are self imposed schedules, like not only running their main characters through the random dungeons but also in some cases their many alternate characters.
I have never felt it has been about getting their astral diamond reward at the end of a dungeon as much as it appears to be about - getting as many astral diamonds as easily as possible – and then trying to trash or find fault in the very mechanism which gives them the opportunity to do so.
It all depends on how anyone chooses to consider it I suppose.
Again, if someone frequently stops in areas where there are no mobs or dropped items, we come back to someone possibly just wanting to explore, stop and look around, explore or even "smell the roses" something you previously said you had no problem with, but it seems to me, you still have a problem with it.
And again how does any regular player actually know if another player is actually AFK, having lag or connectivity problems? Isn't that a judgment call one player makes based on their own expectations of how another player should be playing?
Yes, I too would oppose anyone intentionally going AFK and attempting to scam a run - but since I don't have any way of telling if that is actually the case I now tend to shrug it of as unimportant so long as it does not interfere with progression in the dungeon - not my ability to more quickly and easily accumulate astral diamonds.
I still believe it would be better to, as I suggested, worry less about how other players are playing and more about how we play. Thanks for clearing that up, however as I mentioned I removed Azure enchantments from my head, arms and feet - which cost me a few coins to do so - if instead of paying to remove those enchantments, then replacing them, had I just taken those pieces of gear off I too would have had empty "gear" slots and according to the list you published, that constitutes "sketchy behavior", when it was actually just a choice I could have made.
Again a that looks like a presumption by one player about how another player should be geared or equipped instead of actual “sketchy behavior” - am I wrong?
There are undoubtedly people attempting to scam the game and there is nothing wrong with pointing out instances where someone things a player might be trying to take advantage of the randomness of the present content, but realistically we still have no way of telling if someone actually attempting to perpetrate a scam or that’s just how they choose to play, so mention it as feedback if you wish, turn it in as a problem if you feel you need to - and let the developers try to sort it out… incessantly complaining about the same kinds of thing, particularly things based on a person’s presumptions about how another person should be geared, progress or play serves little purpose in my opinion.
And ultimately if anyone is actually attempting to scam a dungeon run, a point you and I both seem agree on as not being right by the way, aside from taking names and submitting tickets there is little to be done about it - particularly since so much of what some people seem to presume is another player attempting to scam the game seems to boil down to little more than they aren't playing the way you think they should.
The LLPs are in the same situation with normal dungeons as HLPs are with TonG or MSP. Noone who is sane in their mind would PuG for TonG or MSP. (Most) HLPs have no other chance then enter the dungeons with a premade team. LLPs can still PuG reasonably for normal dungeons because the chance is high that a HLP joins their team. But if they expect the HLP joined because he mainly wants to help the LLP exploring the dungeon, then the LLP can not be more wrong. If a LLP really wants to explore and have a good dungeon experience, there is only one option: a premade team.
Again, thanks to Cryptic's choice to ignore community concerns (up to now) no LLP should expect a good dungeon experience with one or two HLPs in the team. Cryptic gave HLPs (as well as LLPs) the opportunity to make quick RADs with normal dungeons/skirmishes and even if there are other means to gain RADs, blaming HLPs to use this opportunity is just wrong. Blame Cryptic.
The way you do that in a PUG dungeon run is if you are running ahead, fine, clear the mobs on the way. If the slowest player is running their toon at top speed then they are doing their part. Or hang back with the slowest member of the party and run together. If someone is wondering off exploring and not staying with the party then they are breaking the social contract, not you.
Now granted these comments are for regular dungeons. If you are running epics, you better have your HAMSTER together. And bots or others "gaming" the runs, screw them.
No matter the reason(s) a character isn't actively participating they are STILL not participating and their rewards should reflect that, it's only fair. Players essentially wouldn't really have to concern themselves with the actions of others because the system would handle it accordingly.
Reason being it's simply a judgment call based on what that particular character is/isn't doing (at least that is how it is done from this end). If a person has no pulse, heartbeat, cold skin, non-responsive, etc. and after multiple attempts to resuscitate nothing changes could it reasonably be inferred that they are dead? Essentially the same thing with Neverwinter the difference being players can't get the same kind of "confirmations" simply by using chat. If a character is sitting in one spot for a considerable amount of time can it reasonably be inferred that they are AFK? That is exactly what happens with AFK players...
If you go to work to pick up your check so you can go pay bills and the store isn't open on time because the manager hasn't arrived, the manager not arriving on time for whatever reason(s) is preventing you from doing what you were to be doing had the manager arrived on time. Of course if something reasonable and beyond the control of the manager happened and it helped prevent them from arriving on time that could/would be taken into consideration though the fact of the matter still remains that they didn't arrive on time which prevented you from doing what you would have been doing otherwise. Essentially the same with Neverwinter, two characters at the "gather your party" circle while a character is AFK at the start is preventing them from continuing, not a slower moving character, even a slow moving character would be more acceptable than an AFK one.
“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY
"No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
Ongoing Issue: Legitmate Players Banned for Botting (Console) and the Future for "Dedicated" Players
Suggestions: (Implemented) \/\/ Rearrange Character on character Select Screen
Your responses include various "what if's " ("exceptions"), no problem there, there can be "exceptions" though to have "exceptions" there has to be standards/rules. "Exceptions" was put in quotes because what you tend to state in argument aren't actually exceptions, they are just changes to the conditions.
Yes there can be players with empty item slots and or common rarity items at higher levels. The standard is increasingly better equipment is frequently available through quests and or drops. A character not being better equipped at higher levels is simply because of the choices the player has made along the way to deviate from it and a player choosing to remain under-equipped effects the quality of the team they are grouped with when they RQ. Quite wrong.
Again there is essentially no positive reason(s) a lvl 60+ character would have missing items (head, neck, belt, arms, rings) and common lower level equipment. If a player doesn't have gold to remove enchantments why would they just remove the entire item and not replace it with something else instead of leaving it equipped?
Yes a player can be having internet connection issues.
Perfect World Entertainment Terms of Service
3. Description
3.1 PWE provides free-to-play, multi-player online Games to registered users and related features, functions and services available through the Website, such as community forums and other interactive areas. To access our Games, you may be required to download and install certain client software, and such access entails the use of hardware, software and Internet access (which you acknowledge play a crucial role in your user experience).
3.2 You agree that we are not responsible for any hardware, software or Internet access, quality, suitability or unavailability issues. We do not provide Internet access, and you are responsible for all fees relating to telephone and Internet access charges along with all necessary equipment, servicing, repair or correction incurred in maintaining connectivity to the servers.
The standard is having a stable internet connection which is important to your own experience as well as others. If a player has internet issues it is their responsibility (as stated above) and to sort it out with their ISP as best they can (personally would argue a lower rate due to internet issues which is within reason since when a person pays for a service they expect to receive that service). When you play alone internet issues essentially only effect you, though when you play in a group they effect others as well in negative ways and amounts to the same thing, no/less participation and full rewards.
Similar to a court of law, the jurors don't state that the defendant is guilty, it is stated something similar to "based on the evidence we find the defendant guilty", it doesn't necessarily mean that they are guilty, it means that from the evidence presented it could logically be inferred that they are. In regard to Neverwinter, based on particular actions/non-actions logical and reasonable conclusions can be made rather than simply giving everyone the benefit of the doubt in seemingly each and every case as your statements can allude to.
And just like you stated: Not all players/characters have positive intentions, some simply do the bare minimum for rewards, period.
You can't effectively state "not everyone shares your description..." then turn around and essentially state to give everyone a pass because we don't know for sure what's going on. You can't effectively state that there are players that abuse the game then turn around and state that we don't know for sure who is and who isn't AND counter argue those that are providing information on behavior that can seem legitimate though also be used to abuse the game/others.
Neither can you effectively state: Then turn around and contradict those that are providing feedback to try and help alleviate repeat issues by suggesting a system(s) can effectively draw a line between legitimate and abusing players, none of those contradicting counter arguments are logical nor reasonable, they simply provide an endless loop where abusing players can pass as legitimate players. Then there are some players trying to close that loop.
If someone breaks into your home would you be sitting there trying to give them the benefit of the doubt as to why they did or would you be taking action to protect your family?
Translation
If a character(s) seem to be abusing the game and the effort of others would you just give them the benefit of the doubt in every case as to why they appear to be doing so or would you describe instances where particular behavior can/is seen as sketchy behavior so that adjustments to the system can be made to prevent/lower the effectiveness of abuse?
Just as you state: Even when doing so players are STILL effected by the actions/non-actions of other characters which can be/is a problem. The relevancy of your "let players do them" statements ceases to exist when it unreasonably affects/hinders the outcomes of other players. HLP's wanting to RQ as fast as possible are reasonably slowed down by LLP's, they are unreasonably slowed down by AFK players/characters.
“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY
"No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
Ongoing Issue: Legitmate Players Banned for Botting (Console) and the Future for "Dedicated" Players
Suggestions: (Implemented) \/\/ Rearrange Character on character Select Screen
So once again it appears you are speaking from your personal perspective as a higher level player who seems to be primarily interested in accumulating as much in game wealth as possible – as quickly as possible – and objecting to anyone or any thing that hampers that ability. I myself as a level 70 player have no such complaints so obviously your opinion is not shared by every higher level, or level 70 player.
Had the character(s) not been AFK the group could have either already started the final area or a slower moving character(s) could have been making their way towards the gate so that the final area could be entered. Correction:
AFK characters and or characters exhibiting negative behavior beyond a considerable degree.
Slower characters are more acceptable than AFK players, you can see the progress of a slower character, an AFK character shows no progress. "As fast as possible" means exactly what it means, a group can only complete the queue as fast as the slowest member reaches the final gate = "As fast as possible". It is not possible to complete a NDRQ (normal dungeon random queue) faster than the slowest member can make it to the final gate unless they are vote-kicked which currently takes about 5 minutes or more to be available and even the slowest, frequent "flower smelling" characters can make it to the gate around that time, especially when the mobs on the path are cleared for them.
Have clearly stated multiple times that slower characters personally are fine for the most part, AFK characters reasonably are not. If the people controlling them are having internet connection issues that is unfortunate for them though it is also unfortunate for the rest of the group and they can't continue through no fault of their own.
What you are seemingly arguing is that the "supposed" internet connection issues of a character should be able to effect the rest of the group only leaving them with the option to vote-kick (which doesn't always succeed) or abandon the instance and receive a queue penalty. At least if a character that is AFK, disconnected, or simply remains dead has their rewards reduced they would no longer simply be able to fully benefit from the efforts of the rest of the group whether intentional or unintentional, fair enough. You are one player...
You simply not having/sharing such complaints, thoughts, feelings, etc. and even if a lot of others don't either it STILL does not invalidate those that do share them...
With your consistent "shielding" of such behavior it can be reasonably inferred that you may not have interest in suppressing abusive behavior. Hmmm...
To bring something else to light have you ever seen a HLC (higher level character) and a LLC (lower level character) from the same account? No?
Personally a number of times have seen HLC's and some time later one or more LLC's from the same account. If a player has a 12k+ (sometimes 14k+) decked out character and the other characters on the account running RQ's are of various lower ilvls, common gear quality, missing items, etc. what does that suggest? Apparently the player is familiar enough with the game to achieve such a high ilvl on at least one character... Could it not be reasonably inferred that that player(s) is/very well could be abusing the game/other players by intentionally keeping their other characters under geared?
Personally have seen 12k+ DPS characters (14k+ as well) get outperformed by a character less than half their ilvl (twice as much DPS or more) in skirmishes (IG, PoM, TotDG), sometimes they are the same class, what can be reasonably inferred from those instances? Bad internet connection in each and every case?
“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY
"No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
Ongoing Issue: Legitmate Players Banned for Botting (Console) and the Future for "Dedicated" Players
Suggestions: (Implemented) \/\/ Rearrange Character on character Select Screen
First you say you have no problems with players who stop to explore or "smell the roses" - then you claim that players who frequently stop are engaging in "sketchy behavior" and now you're back to claiming you have no problem with players who steadly progress to the final gate but if they stop moving you again claim they are AFK - even though you have no way to actually know that... there is no debating that or the rest of your circuar non-logic.
At any rate there is a built in and now working mechanism that enables active players to remove players who have been inactive for a period of time... if you can't kick them out quick enough to your satisfaction, that's not a problem with the game or the kick mechanism.
It's like asking someone do they like scrambled eggs, they reply yes, then you ask them do they like pickles, they reply yes then you make a statement that it also means that they must like scrambled eggs mixed with pickles as well then when they correct you and clarify that they don't like both together you go back and quote what they stated before and state that they are going around in circles...
When a person changes the conditions that previous statements were made in responses would need to be allowed to be elaborated on to maintain clarity. You can't change the conditions on the fly and expect others not to elaborate on their previous statements just so your argument can appear to be valid, that isn't fair, hopefully you know that.
Will attempt to break down some previous statements.
- Personally don't have a problem with characters that "smell the roses" though it is dependant upon how much they do it.
- If a character frequently "smells the roses" by stopping in areas where no loot could be present because mobs are not there in the first place that behavior is then considered sketchy though still don't have a problem with it because they are still making progress to the end.
- If a character that frequently "smells the roses" becomes AFK and after a considerable amount of time and they are still AFK, THEN it is considered a problem.
Because it hasn't moved for a considerable amount of time another player states that they are AFK, seemingly you would argue that they "could be" having connection issues, what does that matter, they appear to be AFK. Yes a player could be sitting at the controls having connection issues though based on the circumstances they are considered to be AFK, fair enough, not seeing why you would argue against such clear logic and reasoning.
Personally becoming more concerned about your hypothetical arguments and or reasons as to why a character could be behaving in one way or another being treated as substantiality and acting as if they carry equal/more weight than actual non-hypothetical things that have actual substantiality.
To hopefully drive it home, in regard to the options on the vote-kick menu for AFK and disconnected, NEITHER option includes "appears to be" they clearly and simply read "Away from Keyboard" and "Disconnected/Offline"... It is implied that whatever character being reported has exhibited signs of the offense selected. When a character is stated/described to be exhibiting SB here on the forums it is implied that it has exhibited questionable behavior (such as previously described) to the extent that the statement could be reasonably/comfortably made.
“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY
"No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
Ongoing Issue: Legitmate Players Banned for Botting (Console) and the Future for "Dedicated" Players
Suggestions: (Implemented) \/\/ Rearrange Character on character Select Screen
Cryptic has killed epic dungeon rewards to the point that running random leveling dungeons on multiple characters 8 times out of 10 produces double the AD reward an on-level epic dungeon will give. Sleepwalk through a leveling dungeon for guaranteed AD or bash your head against a T2 dungeon while cursing the 3 bosses that just died without dropping even a peridot and the chest that never awards more than a ring worth half of what you would have gotten in the leveling dungeon assuming you have the VIP to pay for the key? Who in their right mind would choose option B if option A is on the table?
Don't blame the players for the failures of the company.
I will work with the LLPs that are in a dungeon. I have been in a dungeon where a speed-runner wanted to kick a LLP simply because they could not keep up. THAT behavior is wrong.