Nice to see more Archers on Neverwinter, i usually run Combat/Pathfinder for solo, because the end game was really a chalenge till i got some armor that drops from chult hunts, now i can run archer with no problem at all (except chult) and in some big fight my DPS wont drop much as archer now, also, i love the single target hight dmg output that you can get with him and i can hit more than 80% crit with rank 9 brutals (going at 100% when bound procs)...
The HR is one of my alts so i didnt spent much AD on his Artifacts and pet, plus i like to have a Paranoid delusion + mirage set combo in pve, is really nice to see...
BTW was a nice surprise to find that the P.delusion hold power could be soo useful to avoid close range fight as arche vs mobs...
Anyway for me this toon wasnt about having top DPS was just for have funs "sniping" some foes, and now i can do almost the sam dmg and be really usefull to the party...
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thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
80’ or more is an ideal range, I would like to start dealing with foe. 40' is also range when need to fight close to pack.
Melee is not my option at all.
There is so much I could comment on but I will restrain myself and only respond to this. If you are trying to get yourself excommunicated by every support class in the game, this is definitely 1 way to go about it.
Archery class are already being excommunicate by the meta. If we are to go any closer we might as well play trapper or combat path. Archer gains more damage bonuses the further away from the target mechanical wise. But the current meta is limiting archer potential and also the way we want to play it. Beside the meta, archer has its own problem with long encounter cast time like split the sky, roa and hawkshot. Before archer could pull off it rotation, most mob already been burst down. Because of archer burst comes in late, u can only see archer perform in a party where initial dps burst are low. The way i see archery path now is mostly like a support/off-dps class.
If u are trully were to help archer, try help us think of something that would help archer blend in the meta. Well without giving up our playstyle and mechanics ofcourse. Else we would have been point blank archer like u suggested.
I thought I knew what is your concern, @thefabricant. Anyhow, the answering by @kangkeok is so true. Actually, we do not excommunicated because we are still keep talking
As I did choose the DPS built for my play, my personal experience told me that distance is the most important factor for my DPS and survivability is the main issue for me. I could not withstand much attack. To be close to the foe, it is hard for me to survive in many situations. That is why I came out of that philosophy for keeping myself as high DPS as possible and be benefit the most for team. If I have to or like to play with the pack, the buff/debuff playstyle with lower dps need to be applied. I proof myself (maybe I’m wrong) that I could not get the best dps out when I come close to the foe and I am easily die.
The difficulty thing is I have to know and learn how to play with long distance in each area. What I have to concern when I stay at long distance away from group? Which area that you could not able to play with long distance? Soulforge is the one that I could not miss it up to now, in case out of control.
I would like to give an example for SVA. It is one of the area that recommend to stay in the pack. I am luckily that my guild did a practical learning on it quite a lot. It is allow me to test and realize that I could get my best dps without staying in a pack.
In the first scene, I stay close to the team because I have no space enough to keep separate and servive. So, I work on Electric Shot / Thorn Ward / Rain of Arrows / Split the Sky with acceptable dps and debuff. When boss come, I am stay about 80’ close to the entrance and use Aim shot / Long Strider / Rain of Arrows / Split the Sky to get the best dps I could do. I observed that I got less damage taken and less ice apply on me. By the way, I have to always concentrate if I get the ice apply, I have to run quick to the pack. By this tactics, I could have significant high dps comparing with staying in a pack.
Finally, it will be what is the people perception on the Archery and what are they expectation on our duty in the team?
By choosing to stand at a distance you are choosing to do less dps in a party. This is a fact and it isn't going to change any time soon. Many buffs are based on proximity. If you are not in range of Hallowed Ground, Break the Spirit, Anointed Army, Blessing of Battle, Weapons of Light, etc, you will simply do less DpS and these buffs far outweigh any self buffs archery HR has.
I will say this quite clearly and objectively. If you want to be effective in group content, do not follow this build. You are being inconsiderate to other team members by playing a build that literally counter synergizes with other classes and causes frustration to supports. Yes, I am quite literally calling the Archery playstyle of standing at range inconsiderate, because that is what it is. It is like a DC using sunburst and throwing mobs or a CW using Imprisonment on a boss or an OP using banishment/relentless avenger.
Yup. There wont be any good dps build for archery untill the developer do something about it or someone comes out with a miracle build. I have been trying to figure it out for years and i come in conclusion that there is no way dps build is going to do much in the current party buff meta. It just wont synergy with it. If we stay too close to gain all the buff, we are going to lose our crit and a few bonuses that will put us inferior to the other path. We might as well play as trapper or combat spec to get most of our feat & party buff as dps. Archery has already been excommunicate by party buff meta for a long time.
Currently, i play archer as more of a support role than dps. Since our damage cant be amplified by party buff, we might as well be the buff giver. Longstrider is still consider an aset to the party so we could focus on that. Archer still have advantage for buffing longstrider compare to other path since we are always at distance. Trapper can do that but it require him to travel and that mean lost of dps. And he could have slot other dps encounter so he could be more focus on dps.
The way i played a support archer, I start stacking recovery and support the group with longstrider and hawkeye. Atm with 10k recovery i manage to reduce longstrider to 9.3 sec and long strider seem to last for 2.5sec. It take 3-4 aimshot to reset the cooldown for my longstrider. That mean the real cooldown is about 4sec +1.5 sec for cast time of hawkshot/comanding shot + 0.5sec for hawkeye. With hastening light, it takes 1 aimshot to reset my longstrider. Althought the downside to this is build is it wont work too well with mob dying too quickly since aimshot require a target and 1sec to cast (yes, archery has too many downside atm.). I prefer pathfinder since i could do some healing and use ambush remove mob aggro since i spam aimshot on a single target alot.
I find playing as a support is more fun and less stressful than trying to keep up with dps but thats just me. My dps might not be great but they still contribute to the team. It is also quite good in pvp too. Just that instead of ambush, longstrider & hawkshot in pve, i replace hawkshot with comanding shot since hawkshot can be buggy sometime. It can get u alot of kills but downside is u can't really take node so u still act as a support.
I can say I agree on your comment @thefabricant and I am appreciated on any comments/feedbacks.
It is a challenge to go for this kind of built. Anyhow, I am trying to see how could I (my built) do for the best dps out of the current asset and limitation of the built itself and how could I bring the value to the team in term of dps for Archery. My problem is my own willing play style, which has quite a barrier for the game’s mechanism. It is my own challenge and aim to encounter (adjust over) it. It is easily to get the best dps by just changing to Trapper or Combat but my fun will be gone and my effort will be meaningless.
I also would not advise anyone to copy and just play with this built without understanding the Archery DPS Path. It is one of the challenge path and is not easy to success. This post is just for providing the information for the people who is interesting to play Archery and do not know where to start with.
In my opinion, the support role buff/debuff with reasonable dps is may be more interesting for Archery. I also have a built for support role but it is not a kind of fun for me.
Anyhow, if just talk about dps, I, personally, found that I got much dps when standing at a distance comparing with a party playing in many times. There are many details behind and below is my experience I could share.
Working with a distance Advantage: 1) To ensure proc of Longstrider’s Shot with no need to always check the distance (anyhow, sometime is was not proc even you get enough distance ) 2) Less interruption of action, i.e. encounter/daily/at will, especially for encounter like Split the Sky 3) No need for keep moving, could concentrate 100% on atk. [need good tank to keep agro and you need to do attacking wisely*] 4) To get most benefit of At-Will, especially Aim Shot, by combination of Stillness of the Forest + Aspect of the Falcon + [optional] Hunting Hawk’s active bonus, Damage bonus increases as the range increases with a maximum of +7/10% bonus damage at 100'. Note: I luckily got one from some dungeon 2 weeks ago, could not remember where, and try to see its effect. 5) Sometime, it could reduce workload of Cleric, no need to pay attention for one player. 6) With long distance, you got a bird eye view and could support or help your teammate especially Cleric. Disadvantage: 1) No party buff 2) No protection, away from party, need to take care yourself, if you die or put yourself into dangerous situation, it bother teammate to come to you. It is not good at all. 3) *It is need to attack foe wisely (by my experience) and avoid to be an attention point for too many or stronger foe. When I am away from party, to bring the stronger foe to me is some kind of nightmare. Even attacking before others is many time bring the foe to you. By this, teammate need to pay attention and may need to go to help which is not good. I may need to start attack a little bit late not in advance. I am mostly focus on the weaker foe and get rid of them first and, then stronger foe later on ONE BY ONE if possible. 4) It could create a kind of workload for Cleric, if he/she need to see or take care the one who stand behind them. 5) Could come late to the foe and result in less dps outcome
Working with a pack Advantage: 1) Fully buff 2) Full protect Disadvantage: 1) Difficult to ensure the proc of Longstrider’s Shot by missing a curtain distance. Sometimes, foe is just come over you and you will lost the distance. Sometimes, tank’s encounter like Commander's Strike could interfere your aim target. 2) Lose significantly of long range benefit, especially Aim Shot, form Stillness of the Forest + Aspect of the Falcon + [optional] Hunting Hawk’s active bonus. 3) Lots of potential interruption of action, i.e. encounter/daily/at will, when you are in the fighting zone 4) Many time need to keep moving for survival reason, could not concentrate on atk
I also could not see myself that working in a distance is considered being excommunication with the team but the way to contribute is not as normal as other paths do. This is the way for 'DPS' Archer that I thought it could bring the most value to the team with my built based on my play style.
Feel free to add your comment. I could misunderstanding someway or somepoint.
Archer is difficult because ppl expect you to be a trapper or combat. Guild/alliance runs are smoother IF you do good to high damage and for that you need boons, nice gear and enchantments. There is no place in harder dungeons for archers who dont have all the boons possible and at least pilgrim and masterwork gear.
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thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
edited December 2017
Just the team buffs from a single dc outweigh every single feat in the archery path combined. If you are not in range of team buffs, you will do less dps, its a simple fact. HG is a 40% buff, TI is a 20% buff, Bts is a 30% buff. All of these are proximity based. If you are out of range, you are more than halving your damage output. We are not even considering buffs by other classes.
And no, in no circumstances are you reducing the workload for a cleric. I main CW and DC and I HATE HATE HATE running with archery HRs because they are out of range of buffs. If anything, you are playing a build which has a playstyle which deliberately increases the workload for support classes.
Just the team buffs from a single dc outweigh every single feat in the archery path combined. If you are not in range of team buffs, you will do less dps, its a simple fact. HG is a 40% buff, TI is a 20% buff, Bts is a 30% buff. All of these are proximity based. If you are out of range, you are more than halving your damage output. We are not even considering buffs by other classes.
And no, in no circumstances are you reducing the workload for a cleric. I main CW and DC and I HATE HATE HATE running with archery HRs because they are out of range of buffs. If anything, you are playing a build which has a playstyle which deliberately increases the workload for support classes.
So what you are saying is that the only truly ranged class in the game needs a serious rework >:)
Just the team buffs from a single dc outweigh every single feat in the archery path combined. If you are not in range of team buffs, you will do less dps, its a simple fact. HG is a 40% buff, TI is a 20% buff, Bts is a 30% buff. All of these are proximity based. If you are out of range, you are more than halving your damage output. We are not even considering buffs by other classes.
And no, in no circumstances are you reducing the workload for a cleric. I main CW and DC and I HATE HATE HATE running with archery HRs because they are out of range of buffs. If anything, you are playing a build which has a playstyle which deliberately increases the workload for support classes.
So what you are saying is that the only truly ranged class in the game needs a serious rework >:)
It's more likely that the buffers/supports need a rework. As long as the buffing classes have a short range, DPS classes aren't allowed to stand far away.
> @darthtzarr said: > Just the team buffs from a single dc outweigh every single feat in the archery path combined. If you are not in range of team buffs, you will do less dps, its a simple fact. HG is a 40% buff, TI is a 20% buff, Bts is a 30% buff. All of these are proximity based. If you are out of range, you are more than halving your damage output. We are not even considering buffs by other classes. > > And no, in no circumstances are you reducing the workload for a cleric. I main CW and DC and I HATE HATE HATE running with archery HRs because they are out of range of buffs. If anything, you are playing a build which has a playstyle which deliberately increases the workload for support classes. > > So what you are saying is that the only truly ranged class in the game needs a serious rework >:) > > > > It's more likely that the buffers/supports need a rework. As long as the buffing classes have a short range, DPS classes aren't allowed to stand far away.
Ultimately it comes down to the fact that Quality of Support is more important in optimized groups than Quality of Damage Dealers.
"We have always been at war with Dread Vault" ~ Little Brother
> Just the team buffs from a single dc outweigh every single feat in the archery path combined. If you are not in range of team buffs, you will do less dps, its a simple fact. HG is a 40% buff, TI is a 20% buff, Bts is a 30% buff. All of these are proximity based. If you are out of range, you are more than halving your damage output. We are not even considering buffs by other classes.
>
> And no, in no circumstances are you reducing the workload for a cleric. I main CW and DC and I HATE HATE HATE running with archery HRs because they are out of range of buffs. If anything, you are playing a build which has a playstyle which deliberately increases the workload for support classes.
>
> So what you are saying is that the only truly ranged class in the game needs a serious rework >:)
>
>
>
> It's more likely that the buffers/supports need a rework. As long as the buffing classes have a short range, DPS classes aren't allowed to stand far away.
Ultimately it comes down to the fact that Quality of Support is more important in optimized groups than Quality of Damage Dealers.
Well DPS are just fine without at least one support, who would ever bring a support?
If DPS are fine without support, we would see 1 tank 4 dps parties in Tomb. Not sure that I understand your point.
That is the point. Quality of support is more important right now simply because supports are more challenging to build/play (specifically AC DC), and because you have 4-5 supports in every 5 man group. When (if) we return to 3 DPS parties, the supports should always remain "better" than DPS, since they would be completely replaced if they weren't. Not better by an order of magnitude, but it should always be optimal to bring at least 1 support, or they get left out (just like DPS gets left out right now)
Yeah, I remember the 5 CW parties. If Cryptic wants to make 3 dps parties optimal, they will have to do so by nerfing how buffs stack and not the quality of supporters per se. Honestly though, I remain skeptical that they will sort it out to their own satisfaction, much less ours. Nerfing 1 avenue of buff will only lead players to switching to another class, - hypothetically subtract 1 DC, add 1 reworked temptlock or some such. It would have to be a comprehensive change such as what happened on mod 6, and given the game's history that seems unlikely.
"We have always been at war with Dread Vault" ~ Little Brother
It's more likely that the buffers/supports need a rework. As long as the buffing classes have a short range, DPS classes aren't allowed to stand far away.
That would be an interesting point to change on the buff range.
"I will say this quite clearly and objectively. If you want to be effective in group content, do not follow this build."
Unfortunately Thefabricant is stuck in his testing.. Gotta come out and play with some people trying some new stuff every once in a while, or you fall into rut. ..even in theorycrafting.
The OP has not been 'excommunicated by every support in the game'. Ive played with him through many an mSVA, CN, and others. Instead by making a viable build, and being amazingly self-sufficient he has made at least a few support class friends that I know of first hand. Ive seen his character rack up decent damage that has grown as he's aquired gear. At the same time the support is happy not to have to worry about him.
It doesn't run well in normal theory that he should be competitive. ...but he is. And reality beats theory.
Im normally running DPS in Msva when Ive played with him most often so Ill look at that. I don't know exactly how he does it. I don't watch him or others that closely, as I have my own duties to attent to. I'm pretty certain I would die consistantly from being Iced though if I tried to be out there.
What I have noticed is hes always way back, and he rarely ever dies from being caught in ice. Hes always standing on the far out runes, which saves others of us doing it which is apprecaited. I probably do more damage to him than anything else there as I fall back and drop a red on him. Not on purpose, he just happens to be there a lot of time.
In the end.. results matter. Hes always alive at the end. He doesn't beat me for DPS, but I dont think thats his intent, and I have better gear so thats not a surprise. He does always rank highly in the DPS, I would guess from staying active and racking up hits while we're busy running around. ..and hes been doing it since early on when Msva first came out, and before the gear upgrades from that MOD on which has improved his performance since.
SO ... with that I do respect the work that thefabricant has put into testing things and the invaluable information you've made available. That however doesn't justify the response, as though no other variant were possible and someone is silly or should be shunned for even considering something different.
Hes has made it work. ..and from the other comments, people have fun with the idea that he IS doing it. And really, thats the best possible outcome.
In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is. (Yogi Berra)
> @thefabricant said: > Just the team buffs from a single dc outweigh every single feat in the archery path combined. If you are not in range of team buffs, you will do less dps, its a simple fact. HG is a 40% buff, TI is a 20% buff, Bts is a 30% buff. All of these are proximity based. If you are out of range, you are more than halving your damage output. We are not even considering buffs by other classes. > > And no, in no circumstances are you reducing the workload for a cleric. I main CW and DC and I HATE HATE HATE running with archery HRs because they are out of range of buffs. If anything, you are playing a build which has a playstyle which deliberately increases the workload for support classes.
Calm down Even with all that whole Buffs in a party you said (lossing the 90% more damage for me ) a team still being better with a archer because we all are going to do a total of 100 % total more damage with Longstrider shot + XX% .more damage from thorn ward + XX% more damage from Commanding shot, etc etc...
That is much better overall and more now where the Cleric are going to be nerfed and deleted from the party to only 1.
You need less hate to a class and more love to the team & the game.
> Just the team buffs from a single dc outweigh every single feat in the archery path combined. If you are not in range of team buffs, you will do less dps, its a simple fact. HG is a 40% buff, TI is a 20% buff, Bts is a 30% buff. All of these are proximity based. If you are out of range, you are more than halving your damage output. We are not even considering buffs by other classes.
>
> And no, in no circumstances are you reducing the workload for a cleric. I main CW and DC and I HATE HATE HATE running with archery HRs because they are out of range of buffs. If anything, you are playing a build which has a playstyle which deliberately increases the workload for support classes.
Calm down
Even with all that whole Buffs in a party (90% more damage for you) a team still being better with a archer because they all are going to do 100% more damage + XX% from thorn ward....
That is much better overall and more now where the Cleric are going to be nerfed and deleted from party to only 1.
You need less hate to a class and more love to the team & the game.
Uh... No. There was no hate here that I can see. TheFabricant was simply stating the facts. As for your argument, you did the math wrong, and gave too much credit to Archery HRs without explanation of why they got it.
Buffs are multiplied, so HG * TI * BtS is not 90%, it is +118% (+96% post nerfs). Now as for Archery HR, their only decent buff is Longstrider's Shot, which is a 40% buff. They could maybe also slot Hawkeye, but because of how that power works it is less than a 5% DPS increase even for classes that deal most of their damage with encounters, but we will give it to Archery HRs just for proving the point. So, Archery HRs can temporarily buff the party by about +47%. If you want to add in Thorn Ward (20% debuff), you must also start giving cleric's their debuffs, which for a DO might just be Prophecy of Doom, however Prophecy of Doom by itself has 12.5-27.5% debuff potential.
As far as I can tell, even after the nerfs, cleric still completely destroys every other support and DPS class for the second spot in a party. If you can display something that proves otherwise, I would be very glad to see it, since I would love to make my runs faster.
> > Just the team buffs from a single dc outweigh every single feat in the archery path combined. If you are not in range of team buffs, you will do less dps, its a simple fact. HG is a 40% buff, TI is a 20% buff, Bts is a 30% buff. All of these are proximity based. If you are out of range, you are more than halving your damage output. We are not even considering buffs by other classes.
>
> >
>
> > And no, in no circumstances are you reducing the workload for a cleric. I main CW and DC and I HATE HATE HATE running with archery HRs because they are out of range of buffs. If anything, you are playing a build which has a playstyle which deliberately increases the workload for support classes.
>
>
>
> Calm down
>
> Even with all that whole Buffs in a party (90% more damage for you) a team still being better with a archer because they all are going to do 100% more damage + XX% from thorn ward....
>
> That is much better overall and more now where the Cleric are going to be nerfed and deleted from party to only 1.
>
>
>
> You need less hate to a class and more love to the team & the game.
>
> Uh... No. There was no hate here that I can see. TheFabricant was simply stating the facts. As for your argument, you did the math wrong, and gave too much credit to Archery HRs without explanation of why they got it.
>
> Buffs are multiplied, so HG * TI * BtS is not 90%, it is +118% (+96% post nerfs). Now as for Archery HR, their only decent buff is Longstrider's Shot, which is a 40% buff. They could maybe also slot Hawkeye, but because of how that power works it is less than a 5% DPS increase even for classes that deal most of their damage with encounters, but we will give it to Archery HRs just for proving the point. So, Archery HRs can temporarily buff the party by about +47%. If you want to add in Thorn Ward (20% debuff), you must also start giving cleric's their debuffs, which for a DO might just be Prophecy of Doom, however Prophecy of Doom by itself has 12.5-27.5% debuff potential.
>
> As far as I can tell, even after the nerfs, cleric still completely destroys every other support and DPS class for the second spot in a party. If you can display something that proves otherwise, I would be very glad to see it, since I would love to make my runs faster.
No sorry anyone is talking if Cleric is better than a Hunter so end of discussion.. i only said 1 DC is goin to dissapear of the game and that the damage that i lose because the long range dont hurt cuz i give more damage to the team than i losed...
Anyway no problem the buffs im losing are mine when my bonding proc companion's gift
Uh... which DC is getting removed? You are talking about removing either a cleric that buffs party damage by 100% or a cleric that buffs the group by 90% (that both stack) and replacing them with an Archery HR that buffs their party by 50% tops. How does this make sense exactly? Double DC probably isn't going away yet, since they didn't nerf it enough for it to go away. Just because the nerfs were intended to destroy the double DC meta doesn't mean they actually did.
I'm pretty sure the players who are standing in buff range get companion's gift too by the way. It just so happens that Buffs+Companion's Gift is greater than Companion's Gift.
> Just the team buffs from a single dc outweigh every single feat in the archery path combined. If you are not in range of team buffs, you will do less dps, its a simple fact. HG is a 40% buff, TI is a 20% buff, Bts is a 30% buff. All of these are proximity based. If you are out of range, you are more than halving your damage output. We are not even considering buffs by other classes.
>
> And no, in no circumstances are you reducing the workload for a cleric. I main CW and DC and I HATE HATE HATE running with archery HRs because they are out of range of buffs. If anything, you are playing a build which has a playstyle which deliberately increases the workload for support classes.
Calm down
Even with all that whole Buffs in a party (90% more damage for you) a team still being better with a archer because they all are going to do 100% more damage + XX% from thorn ward....
That is much better overall and more now where the Cleric are going to be nerfed and deleted from party to only 1.
You need less hate to a class and more love to the team & the game.
Uh... No. There was no hate here that I can see. TheFabricant was simply stating the facts. As for your argument, you did the math wrong, and gave too much credit to Archery HRs without explanation of why they got it.
Buffs are multiplied, so HG * TI * BtS is not 90%, it is +118% (+96% post nerfs). Now as for Archery HR, their only decent buff is Longstrider's Shot, which is a 40% buff. They could maybe also slot Hawkeye, but because of how that power works it is less than a 5% DPS increase even for classes that deal most of their damage with encounters, but we will give it to Archery HRs just for proving the point. So, Archery HRs can temporarily buff the party by about +47%. If you want to add in Thorn Ward (20% debuff), you must also start giving cleric's their debuffs, which for a DO might just be Prophecy of Doom, however Prophecy of Doom by itself has 12.5-27.5% debuff potential.
As far as I can tell, even after the nerfs, cleric still completely destroys every other support and DPS class for the second spot in a party. If you can display something that proves otherwise, I would be very glad to see it, since I would love to make my runs faster.
I didnt say anything about hunter being better that Cleric, so end of discussion with that.Really im no talking to you sorry.
I only said the fact that 1 Cleric is goin to be removed from the party in the next path, so more space for the ranger ... And my post is about the buffs that im losing because the long range (90% personal less damage) i give to the party much much more damage overall than all i losed...
There is hate because Mr. TheFabricant was saying that He HATES HATES HATES archers in his team, so please dont lie saying there is no hate...
And anyway all the buffs i lose are given them to me with my companion's gift.
im saying that cleric in the next update is going to be only 1, but someone is deleting my post...
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I didnt say anything about hunter being better that Cleric, so end of discussion with that ... I only said the fact that 1 Cleric is goin to be removed from the party ...
It's not a fact. The nerfs were not big enough to remove 1 cleric from the party. The normal meta groups bring GF, OP, DC, DC, DPS even on the module 13 preview server. To get an Archery HR into the group, they would need to be DPS (but they deal no DPS), or replace one of the support classes. To replace a support class, they must be better than the support class they are replacing. Since you stated that it was a one cleric party, the Archery HR was implied to be better than a DC, which is why I was arguing from that angle.
my post is about the buffs that im losing because the long range (90% personal less damage) i give to the party much much more damage overall than all i losed... ... And anyway all the buffs i lose are given them to me with my companion's gift.
Not quite. To clarify for anyone else who stumbles upon this, companions only transfer power share buffs, and they can only transfer what was given to the companion before the bonding runestones procced. This means that you also miss out on ITF from guardian fighters (30%), Bane from paladins (10%x3), Pillar of Power from SWs (18%), Forgemaster's Flame (15%), Break the Spirit (21%), Hallowed Ground (35%), and Terrifying Insight (20%) from clerics along with a few other minor buffs from other classes. It depends on your party comp, but even after the nerfs to clerics (the ones coming in module 13), the best groups will include two clerics, two "tanks", and a DPS, so you will miss out on pretty much this full range of buffs (totaling aprox +280%).
As for the power shared through companion's gift, you won't gain all of it if you stand out of range. Lets say you have 3 rank 14 bonding runestones. When a good AC DC casts all their buffs, they will give out 30-35k power to all allies hit by the buff. Your companion would then share 70-80k power with you from companion gift, however, because you were standing out of range you miss out on 30-35k on yourself, so instead of a 100-115k buff, you get a 70-80k buff. As good as the companion's gift is, it doesn't make up for standing out of range. Now if Archery HR somehow deals enough damage to make up for doing 1/4th the normal damage of other classes, I have to wonder why they aren't used in more speedruns.
The sad part of this is that the other hunter ranger feat paths can use Longstriders Shot basically just as well as the Archer, they have better capstones, and they deal their damage from close range to benefit from buffs, so which part of the Archery HR is actually benefiting the party in a way that say a Trapper or Combat HR could not?
we all are going to do a total of 100 % total more damage with Longstrider shot + XX% .more damage from thorn ward + XX% more damage from Commanding shot, etc etc...
Also note that Thorn Ward is a debuff, not a buff. In most groups a 20% debuff like that will likely give closer to a 3-5% damage increase rather than the stated 20%. Commanding Shot as well. Longstriders is a very powerful 40% damage buff for a few seconds, however, that is not a unique ability for the Archery HR. A combat HR is fully capable of running out to 30 feet, casting Longstriders, and then diving back into the group.
"Not quite. To clarify for anyone else who stumbles upon this, companions only transfer power share buffs, and they can only transfer what was given to the companion before the bonding runestones procced. This means that you also miss out on ITF from guardian fighters (30%), Bane from paladins (10%x3), Pillar of Power from SWs (18%), Forgemaster's Flame (15%), Break the Spirit (21%), Hallowed Ground (35%), and Terrifying Insight (20%) from clerics along with a few other minor buffs from other classes. It depends on your party comp, but even after the nerfs to clerics (the ones coming in module 13), the best groups will include two clerics, two "tanks", and a DPS, so you will miss out on pretty much this full range of buffs (totaling aprox +280%).
As for the power shared through companion's gift, you won't gain all of it if you stand out of range. Lets say you have 3 rank 14 bonding runestones. When a good AC DC casts all their buffs, they will give out 30-35k power to all allies hit by the buff. Your companion would then share 70-80k power with you from companion gift, however, because you were standing out of range you miss out on 30-35k on yourself, so instead of a 100-115k buff, you get a 70-80k buff. As good as the companion's gift is, it doesn't make up for standing out of range. Now if Archery HR somehow deals enough damage to make up for doing 1/4th the normal damage of other classes, I have to wonder why they aren't used in more speedruns."
Question about this: If the companion is within the range of the buffs given, i.e. from the AC DC isn't the power still shared? I would imagine most companions are going to run into the fray like the other dps classes and should be in the same range. Or is the companion's gift affected by distance?
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clericalistMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 595Arc User
edited January 2018
Let me repeat what I said earlier here, what is the reason you are playing this game again? If you sincerely believe that the aim of this game is to stand in one tight cluster and treat every content as the exact same meat grinder speed running solution, then I cannot argue with you, all I can say there are better alternatives out there if this is what thrills you. As for the support issue, that is for another topic thread, all I want to say is that support in any reasonable game design is not considered to be just a buffbot.
Archery is a viable path for any content, you should have no problem getting 2nd or 3rd paingiver in any content with equally geared parties. Anyone who proclaims one is "inconsiderate" because you are not indulging in their min max obsessions, is the real inconsiderate one here.
Several aspects of the game makes standing away from the rest of the group a bad idea in group content. Most buffs have a very short range (longstrider being a notable exception) and many encounters have either a small area or special effects that favor a tight group.
It's sad, but it's a fact. Wizards and warlocks could be too considered ranged damage dealers. Yet they'll get much better results by standing in the middle of their group.
MSVA isn't the worst example since an archer can call for help when trapped in ice and rush for the group when they get the downward arrow. During the manticores and last part of the fight however there isn't enough place to stand far way. Against the avatar of orcus the arena is too small to stand far enough and against Withers an archer standing away will die very fast and endanger the team. Even trappers are problematic against Withers.
Until the devs change the range of all buffs in the game and maybe rework some encounters, which isn't going to happen anytime soon, using an archery HR in a group will remain a bad choice.
You may or may not like it, I personally find it sad, but that's the way it is.
That being said, I do have an archery loadout on my HR and I definitely love using it when soloing weak stuff or doing random basic dungeons.
Some people seem to also find it interesting in PVP but I don't have any knowledge of PVP myself.
Don't take all the criticism too harshly. It's an interesting build and it can certainly have its uses, but using it in any difficult group content would be a mistake which would keep not only you but the rest of the team as well from success.
I get bored of people dictating how others should play the game. As far as im concerned if you want to stand at the back and ping arrows it's fine by me as long as you are contributing in a meaningful way. It's boring as hell not being able to play end game content until you've stood in protectors enclave for 30 minutes trying to get a DC in your group. I'm all for varying group compositions and trying something knew, because everything is boring when we all agree.
I can understand the point of view of people who think in terms of efficiency, i agree its more desirable to have all team members in range of buffs and heals! It maximises the effects. But i just don't agree that anybody should be discouraged from playing in whatever way works way for them. Their is a vote to kick mechanic if it end up being problematic.
all wrong. getting hr archer work is easy.just drop all feats/skills etc that says you need to stand 100 feet away to get 1% dmg buff or crit rate. then put 15 points in combat tree and you will see that you can be effective. tested it and couple of my end game friends tested my build also and it works. this way you stand near enemies get buffs and get 50% crit sev from combat tree.then there is couple other things on choosing your skills.but yeah it works.
Comments
The HR is one of my alts so i didnt spent much AD on his Artifacts and pet, plus i like to have a Paranoid delusion + mirage set combo in pve, is really nice to see...
BTW was a nice surprise to find that the P.delusion hold power could be soo useful to avoid close range fight as arche vs mobs...
Anyway for me this toon wasnt about having top DPS was just for have funs "sniping" some foes, and now i can do almost the sam dmg and be really usefull to the party...
I will say this quite clearly and objectively. If you want to be effective in group content, do not follow this build. You are being inconsiderate to other team members by playing a build that literally counter synergizes with other classes and causes frustration to supports. Yes, I am quite literally calling the Archery playstyle of standing at range inconsiderate, because that is what it is. It is like a DC using sunburst and throwing mobs or a CW using Imprisonment on a boss or an OP using banishment/relentless avenger.
Yup. There wont be any good dps build for archery untill the developer do something about it or someone comes out with a miracle build. I have been trying to figure it out for years and i come in conclusion that there is no way dps build is going to do much in the current party buff meta. It just wont synergy with it. If we stay too close to gain all the buff, we are going to lose our crit and a few bonuses that will put us inferior to the other path. We might as well play as trapper or combat spec to get most of our feat & party buff as dps. Archery has already been excommunicate by party buff meta for a long time.
Currently, i play archer as more of a support role than dps. Since our damage cant be amplified by party buff, we might as well be the buff giver. Longstrider is still consider an aset to the party so we could focus on that. Archer still have advantage for buffing longstrider compare to other path since we are always at distance. Trapper can do that but it require him to travel and that mean lost of dps. And he could have slot other dps encounter so he could be more focus on dps.
The way i played a support archer, I start stacking recovery and support the group with longstrider and hawkeye. Atm with 10k recovery i manage to reduce longstrider to 9.3 sec and long strider seem to last for 2.5sec. It take 3-4 aimshot to reset the cooldown for my longstrider. That mean the real cooldown is about 4sec +1.5 sec for cast time of hawkshot/comanding shot + 0.5sec for hawkeye. With hastening light, it takes 1 aimshot to reset my longstrider. Althought the downside to this is build is it wont work too well with mob dying too quickly since aimshot require a target and 1sec to cast (yes, archery has too many downside atm.). I prefer pathfinder since i could do some healing and use ambush remove mob aggro since i spam aimshot on a single target alot.
I find playing as a support is more fun and less stressful than trying to keep up with dps but thats just me. My dps might not be great but they still contribute to the team. It is also quite good in pvp too. Just that instead of ambush, longstrider & hawkshot in pve, i replace hawkshot with comanding shot since hawkshot can be buggy sometime. It can get u alot of kills but downside is u can't really take node so u still act as a support.
It is a challenge to go for this kind of built. Anyhow, I am trying to see how could I (my built) do for the best dps out of the current asset and limitation of the built itself and how could I bring the value to the team in term of dps for Archery. My problem is my own willing play style, which has quite a barrier for the game’s mechanism. It is my own challenge and aim to encounter (adjust over) it. It is easily to get the best dps by just changing to Trapper or Combat but my fun will be gone and my effort will be meaningless.
I also would not advise anyone to copy and just play with this built without understanding the Archery DPS Path. It is one of the challenge path and is not easy to success. This post is just for providing the information for the people who is interesting to play Archery and do not know where to start with.
In my opinion, the support role buff/debuff with reasonable dps is may be more interesting for Archery. I also have a built for support role but it is not a kind of fun for me.
Anyhow, if just talk about dps, I, personally, found that I got much dps when standing at a distance comparing with a party playing in many times. There are many details behind and below is my experience I could share.
Working with a distance
Advantage:
1) To ensure proc of Longstrider’s Shot with no need to always check the distance (anyhow, sometime is was not proc even you get enough distance
2) Less interruption of action, i.e. encounter/daily/at will, especially for encounter like Split the Sky
3) No need for keep moving, could concentrate 100% on atk. [need good tank to keep agro and you need to do attacking wisely*]
4) To get most benefit of At-Will, especially Aim Shot, by combination of Stillness of the Forest + Aspect of the Falcon + [optional] Hunting Hawk’s active bonus, Damage bonus increases as the range increases with a maximum of +7/10% bonus damage at 100'.
Note: I luckily got one from some dungeon 2 weeks ago, could not remember where, and try to see its effect.
5) Sometime, it could reduce workload of Cleric, no need to pay attention for one player.
6) With long distance, you got a bird eye view and could support or help your teammate especially Cleric.
Disadvantage:
1) No party buff
2) No protection, away from party, need to take care yourself, if you die or put yourself into dangerous situation, it bother teammate to come to you. It is not good at all.
3) *It is need to attack foe wisely (by my experience) and avoid to be an attention point for too many or stronger foe. When I am away from party, to bring the stronger foe to me is some kind of nightmare. Even attacking before others is many time bring the foe to you. By this, teammate need to pay attention and may need to go to help which is not good. I may need to start attack a little bit late not in advance. I am mostly focus on the weaker foe and get rid of them first and, then stronger foe later on ONE BY ONE if possible.
4) It could create a kind of workload for Cleric, if he/she need to see or take care the one who stand behind them.
5) Could come late to the foe and result in less dps outcome
Working with a pack
Advantage:
1) Fully buff
2) Full protect
Disadvantage:
1) Difficult to ensure the proc of Longstrider’s Shot by missing a curtain distance. Sometimes, foe is just come over you and you will lost the distance. Sometimes, tank’s encounter like Commander's Strike could interfere your aim target.
2) Lose significantly of long range benefit, especially Aim Shot, form Stillness of the Forest + Aspect of the Falcon + [optional] Hunting Hawk’s active bonus.
3) Lots of potential interruption of action, i.e. encounter/daily/at will, when you are in the fighting zone
4) Many time need to keep moving for survival reason, could not concentrate on atk
I also could not see myself that working in a distance is considered being excommunication with the team but the way to contribute is not as normal as other paths do. This is the way for 'DPS' Archer that I thought it could bring the most value to the team with my built based on my play style.
Feel free to add your comment. I could misunderstanding someway or somepoint.
And no, in no circumstances are you reducing the workload for a cleric. I main CW and DC and I HATE HATE HATE running with archery HRs because they are out of range of buffs. If anything, you are playing a build which has a playstyle which deliberately increases the workload for support classes.
Signature [WIP] - tyvm John
> Just the team buffs from a single dc outweigh every single feat in the archery path combined. If you are not in range of team buffs, you will do less dps, its a simple fact. HG is a 40% buff, TI is a 20% buff, Bts is a 30% buff. All of these are proximity based. If you are out of range, you are more than halving your damage output. We are not even considering buffs by other classes.
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> And no, in no circumstances are you reducing the workload for a cleric. I main CW and DC and I HATE HATE HATE running with archery HRs because they are out of range of buffs. If anything, you are playing a build which has a playstyle which deliberately increases the workload for support classes.
>
> So what you are saying is that the only truly ranged class in the game needs a serious rework >:)
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>
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> It's more likely that the buffers/supports need a rework. As long as the buffing classes have a short range, DPS classes aren't allowed to stand far away.
Ultimately it comes down to the fact that Quality of Support is more important in optimized groups than Quality of Damage Dealers.
Signature [WIP] - tyvm John
Signature [WIP] - tyvm John
Unfortunately Thefabricant is stuck in his testing.. Gotta come out and play with some people trying some new stuff every once in a while, or you fall into rut. ..even in theorycrafting.
The OP has not been 'excommunicated by every support in the game'. Ive played with him through many an mSVA, CN, and others. Instead by making a viable build, and being amazingly self-sufficient he has made at least a few support class friends that I know of first hand. Ive seen his character rack up decent damage that has grown as he's aquired gear. At the same time the support is happy not to have to worry about him.
It doesn't run well in normal theory that he should be competitive. ...but he is. And reality beats theory.
Im normally running DPS in Msva when Ive played with him most often so Ill look at that. I don't know exactly how he does it. I don't watch him or others that closely, as I have my own duties to attent to. I'm pretty certain I would die consistantly from being Iced though if I tried to be out there.
What I have noticed is hes always way back, and he rarely ever dies from being caught in ice. Hes always standing on the far out runes, which saves others of us doing it which is apprecaited. I probably do more damage to him than anything else there as I fall back and drop a red on him. Not on purpose, he just happens to be there a lot of time.
In the end.. results matter. Hes always alive at the end. He doesn't beat me for DPS, but I dont think thats his intent, and I have better gear so thats not a surprise. He does always rank highly in the DPS, I would guess from staying active and racking up hits while we're busy running around. ..and hes been doing it since early on when Msva first came out, and before the gear upgrades from that MOD on which has improved his performance since.
SO ... with that I do respect the work that thefabricant has put into testing things and the invaluable information you've made available. That however doesn't justify the response, as though no other variant were possible and someone is silly or should be shunned for even considering something different.
Hes has made it work. ..and from the other comments, people have fun with the idea that he IS doing it. And really, thats the best possible outcome.
In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is. (Yogi Berra)
> Just the team buffs from a single dc outweigh every single feat in the archery path combined. If you are not in range of team buffs, you will do less dps, its a simple fact. HG is a 40% buff, TI is a 20% buff, Bts is a 30% buff. All of these are proximity based. If you are out of range, you are more than halving your damage output. We are not even considering buffs by other classes.
>
> And no, in no circumstances are you reducing the workload for a cleric. I main CW and DC and I HATE HATE HATE running with archery HRs because they are out of range of buffs. If anything, you are playing a build which has a playstyle which deliberately increases the workload for support classes.
Calm down
Even with all that whole Buffs in a party you said (lossing the 90% more damage for me ) a team still being better with a archer because we all are going to do a total of 100 % total more damage with Longstrider shot + XX% .more damage from thorn ward + XX% more damage from Commanding shot, etc etc...
That is much better overall and more now where the Cleric are going to be nerfed and deleted from the party to only 1.
You need less hate to a class and more love to the team & the game.
Buffs are multiplied, so HG * TI * BtS is not 90%, it is +118% (+96% post nerfs). Now as for Archery HR, their only decent buff is Longstrider's Shot, which is a 40% buff. They could maybe also slot Hawkeye, but because of how that power works it is less than a 5% DPS increase even for classes that deal most of their damage with encounters, but we will give it to Archery HRs just for proving the point. So, Archery HRs can temporarily buff the party by about +47%. If you want to add in Thorn Ward (20% debuff), you must also start giving cleric's their debuffs, which for a DO might just be Prophecy of Doom, however Prophecy of Doom by itself has 12.5-27.5% debuff potential.
As far as I can tell, even after the nerfs, cleric still completely destroys every other support and DPS class for the second spot in a party. If you can display something that proves otherwise, I would be very glad to see it, since I would love to make my runs faster.
Signature [WIP] - tyvm John
I'm pretty sure the players who are standing in buff range get companion's gift too by the way. It just so happens that Buffs+Companion's Gift is greater than Companion's Gift.
Signature [WIP] - tyvm John
I didnt say anything about hunter being better that Cleric, so end of discussion with that.Really im no talking to you sorry.
I only said the fact that 1 Cleric is goin to be removed from the party in the next path, so more space for the ranger ...
And my post is about the buffs that im losing because the long range (90% personal less damage) i give to the party much much more damage overall than all i losed...
There is hate because Mr. TheFabricant was saying that He HATES HATES HATES archers in his team, so please dont lie saying there is no hate...
And anyway all the buffs i lose are given them to me with my companion's gift.
Good day!
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As for the power shared through companion's gift, you won't gain all of it if you stand out of range. Lets say you have 3 rank 14 bonding runestones. When a good AC DC casts all their buffs, they will give out 30-35k power to all allies hit by the buff. Your companion would then share 70-80k power with you from companion gift, however, because you were standing out of range you miss out on 30-35k on yourself, so instead of a 100-115k buff, you get a 70-80k buff. As good as the companion's gift is, it doesn't make up for standing out of range. Now if Archery HR somehow deals enough damage to make up for doing 1/4th the normal damage of other classes, I have to wonder why they aren't used in more speedruns.
The sad part of this is that the other hunter ranger feat paths can use Longstriders Shot basically just as well as the Archer, they have better capstones, and they deal their damage from close range to benefit from buffs, so which part of the Archery HR is actually benefiting the party in a way that say a Trapper or Combat HR could not? Also note that Thorn Ward is a debuff, not a buff. In most groups a 20% debuff like that will likely give closer to a 3-5% damage increase rather than the stated 20%. Commanding Shot as well. Longstriders is a very powerful 40% damage buff for a few seconds, however, that is not a unique ability for the Archery HR. A combat HR is fully capable of running out to 30 feet, casting Longstriders, and then diving back into the group.
Signature [WIP] - tyvm John
As for the power shared through companion's gift, you won't gain all of it if you stand out of range. Lets say you have 3 rank 14 bonding runestones. When a good AC DC casts all their buffs, they will give out 30-35k power to all allies hit by the buff. Your companion would then share 70-80k power with you from companion gift, however, because you were standing out of range you miss out on 30-35k on yourself, so instead of a 100-115k buff, you get a 70-80k buff. As good as the companion's gift is, it doesn't make up for standing out of range. Now if Archery HR somehow deals enough damage to make up for doing 1/4th the normal damage of other classes, I have to wonder why they aren't used in more speedruns."
Question about this:
If the companion is within the range of the buffs given, i.e. from the AC DC isn't the power still shared? I would imagine most companions are going to run into the fray like the other dps classes and should be in the same range. Or is the companion's gift affected by distance?
Archery is a viable path for any content, you should have no problem getting 2nd or 3rd paingiver in any content with equally geared parties. Anyone who proclaims one is "inconsiderate" because you are not indulging in their min max obsessions, is the real inconsiderate one here.
It's sad, but it's a fact. Wizards and warlocks could be too considered ranged damage dealers. Yet they'll get much better results by standing in the middle of their group.
MSVA isn't the worst example since an archer can call for help when trapped in ice and rush for the group when they get the downward arrow. During the manticores and last part of the fight however there isn't enough place to stand far way. Against the avatar of orcus the arena is too small to stand far enough and against Withers an archer standing away will die very fast and endanger the team. Even trappers are problematic against Withers.
Until the devs change the range of all buffs in the game and maybe rework some encounters, which isn't going to happen anytime soon, using an archery HR in a group will remain a bad choice.
You may or may not like it, I personally find it sad, but that's the way it is.
That being said, I do have an archery loadout on my HR and I definitely love using it when soloing weak stuff or doing random basic dungeons.
Some people seem to also find it interesting in PVP but I don't have any knowledge of PVP myself.
Don't take all the criticism too harshly. It's an interesting build and it can certainly have its uses, but using it in any difficult group content would be a mistake which would keep not only you but the rest of the team as well from success.
I can understand the point of view of people who think in terms of efficiency, i agree its more desirable to have all team members in range of buffs and heals! It maximises the effects. But i just don't agree that anybody should be discouraged from playing in whatever way works way for them. Their is a vote to kick mechanic if it end up being problematic.