How is the DC faring in mod 12b PVP: Healers

nezdin

Has anyone tested out Faithful or other healing/buff builds on preview 12b?

Someone just old me that faithful is very tough to play with both healing and astral shield nerfs, and that generally DPS is significantly higher. No idea what that means for righteous builds - I guess squishier, with higher DPS that does not compensate enough for the squishiness.

I am interested in knowing what others have seen.

EDITED title to reflect healing thread.

plavia

i think the biggest difference will be the control immunity.
our attacks ar slow.

healing deppersion will make rightous buff path hard life in PVP. even today its hard to heal (yourself)

nezdin

plavia said:

i think the biggest difference will be the control immunity.
our attacks ar slow.

healing deppersion will make rightous buff path hard life in PVP. even today its hard to heal (yourself)

Yes, I guess that healing from DG and sunburst will be ridiculous now. But more importantly I wonder how Bastion will be affected, esp. for faithful tree. If DPS overall has gone up, then righteous will be even more vulnerable to burst attacks

I know DCs are not very popular, but surely someone has had the chance to try these out?

pjohnny1

Read a couple posts from people that went on preview , pretty much said insignia heals , LS , and class self heals have been reduced to very low levels . I would think this would make faithful much more desirable even with healing depression.

nezdin

pjohnny1 said:

Read a couple posts from people that went on preview , pretty much said insignia heals , LS , and class self heals have been reduced to very low levels . I would think this would make faithful much more desirable even with healing depression.

That would be the conclusion only if several assumptions were met, the most important of which is that the faithful DC heals are still potent enough to be useful. That is the first question.

The other problem with directly concluding that is that you would have to keep all other things constant - ceteris paribus. However, so many things are changing in 12b simultaneously. Another greatly used power is being changed for the worse: empowered Astral Shield; so another question is if this change + healing depression make the faithful DC a class that is constantly "fighting" to keep itself alive rather than provide utility for the other members of his team.

And finally, my preferred spec is righteous which never was a powerful healing spec. Now the utility in using Astral Shield is diminished; the utility is using sunburst is diminished (not totally, but significantly); and DPS has overall increased. So the questions here are how is the righteous' DPS in 12b? And has its survivability been substantially reduced? Not even 2 weeks left anyway so things will soon be clearer I guess.

pjohnny1

@nezdin

CW over in library posted righteous is about even with CW with slightly more damage . Pretty much says everyone else does way more damage except OP ( guess he dodges the OP daily ) . He didn't test HR or SW , so don't have info on them . So DC is in the same sinking boat that CW is in , SW in all probability is in it as well .


Your right I can't say how effective the healing will be for faithful in 12b . I will say when you increase damage overall and have a 75 % healing depression over all healing , that healing probably will not be effective enough .

miyanaa

I havent tested anything on PTR since well, I always prefer to test things on live (laziness).

Anyways, people have been saying that PvP feels like its mod 5-6 again (PTR one), so Im guessing things die fast, and a lot :P Which means healing will be much more appreciated (even if its just a lil) than it has been the past mod or two, since everything was so damn tanky and most of BiS DCs went Righteous just to buff and debuff the enemy team, not even for dps, just debuffs.

So imo theres gonna be two scenarios - DCs will have to go back to pure healing builds OR the Paladins will take over the role of healers (cause of the heals/AS nerf), and DCs wont be that welcome in PvP anymore, who knows tbh?

DPS DCs were quite OP in those old modules, there were very few of them though. Personally I do prefer debuffing much more than healing, its just more fun than running after people trying to outheal all kinds of dmg.. also cause it makes things die more, which is more fun

So I guess we will see.

nezdin

@miyanaa
DPS DCs were OP? Would love to see that. I wasn't around then.

One of the reasons I like this class now is that you have a choice between buffer and healer - not all classes can use two different viable paths with very different results. I hope we still have that option next mod but that DPS can be viable again. Only a week away so let's see if we're lucky or we just become useless.

eliybeats

It was fun to dot a class down and as they try to run away cast prophecy of doom on them and watch them die later. Hopefully that will be back soon

jojo

i'm personally fine with righteous being weakened in pvp, since it's already the strongest option for pve. i feel like it's fun to switch to a healing loadout and for once be a useful addition as a full heal. i would just like to see a tweak to the campaign then. because good luck getting those triple kills as a healer.

nezdin

jojo#2051 said:

i'm personally fine with righteous being weakened in pvp, since it's already the strongest option for pve. i feel like it's fun to switch to a healing loadout and for once be a useful addition as a full heal. i would just like to see a tweak to the campaign then. because good luck getting those triple kills as a healer.

There is no good reason in allowing a "weakened" righteous path in pvp just because it happens to be the most widely used in pve. Each deserve their own well-balanced role in pvp so one can make a choice. Also, not everyone likes to pve; in fact, some of us mainly hang around with the hope that pvp will be revived, as a good match (on the odd occasion) in pvp is 10 times more rewarding/fun than any of the pve content.

The goal is to have 2 or 3 equally appreciated paths in pvp, each with a unique role. Since the healer spec has been the most used in pvp for at least the last couple of years - to the extent that many people have been complaining that it needs to be toned down - it would be nice to also have a viable DPS spec in parallel to a healing spec.

nezdin

eliybeats said:

It was fun to dot a class down and as they try to run away cast prophecy of doom on them and watch them die later. Hopefully that will be back soon

Maybe now with fewer stuns the casting time of PoD will be much less of an issue - that is one of the reasons it is so unattractive imo.

plavia

DC healer is hamster.
maybe its first day feeling but i don't think you can play healer.
as riguous i heal others 2k with DG so its tough as well.
maybe virtuous buffer?

chiennedeluxe

Just came out of pvp. Conclusion: can't tank anymore, can't heal anymore, and still do no dammage. I am useless.

Uncle Ben (DC)

nezdin

I played 4 matches last night so cannot be certain about all the changes yet. I do know that versus a particular CW and a GWF, in the previous mod, I could hold my ground reasonably well as Righteous; however, now they can burst me down way faster than before and my DPS just doesn't make the cut to pose a threat to them.

GF, GWF and CW can now burst my DC down much faster than before. In fact for some of these classes their cc seems stronger at first to the extent that they land their death-combo before immunity even has a chance to kick in. If I am 1v1 a TR, I feel like the only option is abandoning the node. And I say all this with T.Fey, Perfect Negation, full Valhalla set, and 1540-150k HP (no HP boons).

I tested faithful spec less but will give it a go later. My impressions were that I died quite easily now, although this may have been against much better geared players. TBC.

nezdin

Played some more. Compared how my DC did to my CW. DC is well equipped but his damage pales in comparison to my undergeared burst-damage CW. CW is also much tankier than my DC. Very disappointed for the DC.

Faithful healer's problem is also his tankiness - he used to rely on heals to be tanky but now can be easily killed. The really need to make some BIG changes to pick this class off the ground.

chiennedeluxe

Its not easy to not insult those cryptic clueless devs on the forum.

plavia

ok, after 3 days and 15 matches.
overall matches are competative and with the option of any armor its nice.
cleric is back to pre mod5 = training dummy that can only buff party. some matches i die 50 times.
best tactic is the pug bot style. go 1 and hope to cap, then go 2 and avoid using powers. dont provoke players.

Faithful:
I couldn't make it with 24k power, 40% deflect and resistance, valh set, armor, mounts, mirage and all boons.
Maybe for Bis tank with 80% deflect it might work.
All path is +10% heal and 10% heal and it doesn't work. depression is big.
Its hard to charge the gift with so much death.
I didn't respec casue loadouts cost same. see where its goes.

Rightuous:
Works like before in a way.
Die faster now but at least damage stay on the target.
overall its not easy path for PVP, you need lot of stat. but it might be the only path avilable
i need to try it more with chains and searing light.

Virtuous:
i took my super power PVE build and put all possible "PVP" equip.
works best so far, exaltation is nice. still no damage and no heals so your party need to prtoect you.

Temp heals not cut at all.
Divine armor is full in PVP.
Sacred falme only gives 600 temp hp but at least its not 150
Divine intervesion i havn't try yet.

we just got cleric fix in mod 11. so next one is 2020...

putzboy78

mod 11 wasn't a complete rework though. It was a nerf + a bunch of hot fixes. The last complete rework was mod 5. DC is regularly gets attention in the way of nerfs since it sits in a funny capacity as a buff/debuffer. Oddly the one part of the game where healing was a thing, they crippled it.

pjohnny1

@plavia

When you describe best tactic is to avoid using powers and don't provoke players made me want to laugh . If it wasn't for the fact that I know your serious I would have . Its very disappointing to read everything about how bad it is for DC . DC having so little viability is just sad .

miyanaa

I did 3-4 matches last night, and 1v1 a BiS GF in a priv queue.

I have all of it recorded but too lazy to upload it atm, but I dont know why people are complaining about heals? I did notice a difference, yes, but my heals from Bastion were still quite strong, in divinity it would be from low like 2-3k to 10-15k and empowered always around 30-40k.
My DC is a DO, as class features I used Foresight and T.Insight at first,2nd match I swapped T.Insight to Healer's Lore.
I run with around 25k power, 8k crit and 9-10k recovery + around 215k HP and 16k deflect which procs to 23k with ring and boons etc.
Ran a Faithful build to check out the heals, will have to test Righteous.

I didnt die once. Wasnt even close to dying. I died one time vs a GF cause I wanted to test playing without Astral Shield and no dodges, still took him awhile to kill me.

I think its all about timing and debuffing enemies dmg with BtS.. and I guess having good stats/gear.

Will be testing more, Im sure its gonna be WAY more difficult to stay alive or keep people alive in a normal 5v5 match in private queue. Havent tried that yet.

nezdin

@miyanaa
I'll say that after playing a few more matches as faithful, I found that it can be useful, yes; but my heals are far from the potent ones you describe and that is due to lower item level than you, and less of a pure focus on power.

The problem I see is that now the DC relies on stats much more than before to get to those powerful heals that you describe. Your build is BiS with you taking half to less than half damage all the time (deflect) and 200k+ HP implies HP SH boons I guess? Many of us do not have all that or the 25k power. So, suddenly in this new mod most DPS classes do much more burst damage and DC heals have been reduced a lot. Maybe at BiS you cannot see that much of a difference but below BiS I think the increase in burst relative to the healing nerf is too strong. For instance my CW's burst has gone up noticeably and has a lower item level than my DC.

I admit that in solo Q it is tough to be able to measure exactly how the class is performing as a healer due to the gaping item level disparities across and within teams though.

All the above only refers to healing path; DPS path is another story.

EDIT: Just saw that @plavia reports similar although slightly lower stats than you but different impressions on faithful. I'll be interested to see if impressions change for either of you or anyone else. If anyone else pvps as a DC at BiS or below BiS please let us know what your impressions are.

nezdin

@plavia
I don't get why Virtuous works the best out of the 3 since you say "no heals" ?

Searing light...its damage seems ridiculously low tbh.

Chains...walking all over them and they do not proc makes them a bad choice.

miyanaa

I think no matter how low heals are, Faithful will always be the best healing path in PvP only cause of Gift of Faith tbh.

And yeah I agree @nezdin#5514 , thats why I posted my stats cause I know its waaaaay different for me than for a DC whos not BiS.
Im also using Trans Fey and Trans Negation, not Trans. Elven. And negation makes the biggest difference out of everything tbh. I always had both of these enchants and swapped them all the time depending on what kind of team/players I was facing and yep, its just crazy how much more tanky it makes you. I think its the best enchant atm due to CC changes.

About to do more PvP to test things out ^^

pjohnny1

@miyanaa

How many of your teammates you saving with those heals ? Been watching the youtube of 12b so can definitely say that damage is far higher than the numbers you are getting. The GFs and TR burst is well over 200k from what I seen . Haven't seen a single video yet of a DC surving against a TR .

You represent what a BIS DC that runs a very defensive build probably 80% deflect , maybe valhalla set , and 2 defensive class features can do . How many DC in the game like this ? I bet there isn't more than 20 if even that many . TR being the most prevalent class in pvp at the moment maybe do some tests with them .

Anyway I guess for solo que this could be a option for DCs . In team play why would anyone bring a DC over a healing pally ? With Astral shield nerf DC doesn't bring anything but a single target debuff. Healadin does everything a DC does and are far better healers .

chiennedeluxe

miyanaa said:

I did 3-4 matches last night, and 1v1 a BiS GF in a priv queue.

I have all of it recorded but too lazy to upload it atm, but I dont know why people are complaining about heals? I did notice a difference, yes, but my heals from Bastion were still quite strong, in divinity it would be from low like 2-3k to 10-15k and empowered always around 30-40k.

...

You are seriously happy with 40k empowered bastion? I dont know what to answer to that, it defy logics.

...

plavia

@nezdin#5514
I compared virtuous AC Vs faithful DO
i think exaltation, anonited armor, have faith and unbreakble devotion made the difference.
i think new pvp damage formule gives more to def than before
my plan was to start new AC loadout, but at the end i completely removed all my PVP equip, donate it to my mules and my new augment companion


@miyanaa
my power, crit and revcevery are similar to urs. i only have 170K hp so my empowr Bastion is 30% lees then urs.
still have not seen anything similar to 30k hp. maybe full empower + crit + dread +deperate retoration + full chaplains...
but even then is 30K hp comprable to GF or GWF blast? OP plug? TR Sod? CW? HR? SW?
i am 15k DC full heals faithfull and 10k noob CW with rank 7 enchants melt me in 5 sec.
i find it hard to belive BIS healer DC can survive other Bis class damage.
but as Herr Starr said “like a 10... I need to see it to believe it"

miyanaa

plavia said:

@miyanaa
my power, crit and revcevery are similar to urs. i only have 170K hp so my empowr Bastion is 30% lees then urs.
still have not seen anything similar to 30k hp. maybe full empower + crit + dread +deperate retoration + full chaplains...
but even then is 30K hp comprable to GF or GWF blast? OP plug? TR Sod? CW? HR? SW?
i am 15k DC full heals faithfull and 10k noob CW with rank 7 enchants melt me in 5 sec.
i find it hard to belive BIS healer DC can survive other Bis class damage.
but as Herr Starr said “like a 10... I need to see it to believe it"

Im not saying its always enough to save ur teammates from TR's SoD or GF when it 2 shots people, but when has it been enough?
Previous mod people would die very fast too vs very good GFs or broken TRs.

All Im saying is that DCs heals were too OP, healing for 200-300k from Bastion and even more from GoF was too much.. made matches boring cause sometimes people seemed immortal.
Now its not enough only cause 2 classes are broken as hell, but that doesnt mean that DC heals should be broken too, but thats my opinion.

And really? Sorry but if you are a 15k DC and you die vs 10k CW with r7 then it means you just cant do well in PvP as a DC...

chiennedeluxe

@miyanaa

I agree that DC was too tanky.

But dont you think that nerfing AS, nerfing global healing and increasing global dammage output is not a bit too much?

Do you really feel that you are usefull in pvp not saving anyone with your crappy healing, getting killed as soon you stop dodging to cast something and doing virtually no dammage...

Dont you think that just fixing the crit dammage in pvp would have been enough? They really needed to reduce healing too?

Anyway, your the only DC I saw who seem happy with the change.

Maybe you just want to show off and tell people how good you are being able to play with DC even if they nerf it to the ground.

We all know your good! OK? You dont need to do that.

Now can you come down on earth and help us bring some balance to the DC please?


thanks

miyanaa

chiennedeluxe said:

@miyanaa

I agree that DC was too tanky.

But dont you think that nerfing AS, nerfing global healing and increasing global dammage output is not a bit too much?

Do you really feel that you are usefull in pvp not saving anyone with your crappy healing, getting killed as soon you stop dodging to cast something and doing virtually no dammage...

Dont you think that just fixing the crit dammage in pvp would have been enough? They really needed to reduce healing too?

Anyway, your the only DC I saw who seem happy with the change.

Maybe you just want to show off and tell people how good you are being able to play with DC even if they nerf it to the ground.

We all know your good! OK? You dont need to do that.

Now can you come down on earth and help us bring some balance to the DC please?


thanks

I think you misunderstood me completely...
I never said I was happy with the changes? Not at all. I think AS nerf was needed, OR the healing nerf, but not both at the same time. And NOT when TR and GF are still so overpowered and they dont do anything about it.

All I was saying in my posts was that I, personally, didnt find those nerfs as devastating as everyone make it sound. And I explained it might be due to the fact that my DC is/was BiS (Im still with r12s, wont be upgrading them for sure).

And people said they were dying to low geared people cause heals are so so low.. How is THAT possible? If you are a BiS DC or even with r10s and perfect/pure weapon enchants, theres no way you should die to low gear CW,GF,SW or whatever else, maybe a TR or GF.

Im not sure why you think Im tryin to show off lol, game is dead so theres no point in showing off with anything xD
This is a discussion so I gave my opinion, explained how my gear and build looks like and what my current experience with PvP looked like..

I might start complaining more once I try 5v5 premades with full BiS players on both sides

chiennedeluxe

miyanaa said:

I might start complaining more once I try 5v5 premades with full BiS players on both sides

You will :-), you will come to the same conclusion than the rest of us.