Easier version of TONG ?

pantha7

LFG chat is hilarious asking for 15k++ for tong ..this is not a dungeon to enjoy endgame content...it's a content to leave you penniless from the big bucks you are gonna need to buy trans enchants,rank 12's mythic artis ..and so on....

ravenskya

I'm not end game - only 13k and went with a group ranging from 13k-15k, we've done it a few times now.

ravenskya

I also dont' have anything trans, only have 2 rank 12's, don't have Leg mount, only have one Leg companion and only have on Mythic artifact. I tanked it fine

oldbaldyone

2 Posts, and you have asked for boons to be account wide and now TONG to be easier - when players have been begging for more challenging content. Interesting topics for the first 2 posts.

If you recently started and want to do end game content...in ANY GAME...its going to cost you. TONG is not designed for new players - its designed for players who have been close to BIS for years.

As for the 15k....yea, that's about right for a PUG to have a decent chance to get through and LFG is always going to go high on the IL. In a premade selective group I'd go as low as 13, but probably not much lower unless forced. Fact is, the first boss is a DPS check and unlike other dungeons, its hard to make up for.

mebengalsfan

ravenskya said:

I also dont' have anything trans, only have 2 rank 12's, don't have Leg mount, only have one Leg companion and only have on Mythic artifact. I tanked it fine

That is because we already know that the community demands top IL when it is not needed. When dungeons were finally playable on PS4 about a year ago, how many request did we see for 3k+ for CN, eLoL, eToS, VT, MC, etc...I mean really....you need 3k players for MC where you stats are dropped. LOL...

The problem with MMO community is they think IL will determine your ability to complete content. I remember going into FBI with a group that was barely above the requirements and I was the highest player in the run and we beat it just fine. Skill trumps IL. IL is just a number and many use it as a criteria to determine entry into content. You know what, the devs do the same thing and their IL entry point is lower because it can be done at those ILs. Just saying for anyone who thinks you need near BiS IL to beat end game content.

On a side note a group of 16K+ player I ran with could not beat FBI....I was the lone player not 16K and you know what they all died quickly on the turlte...I was always the last one standing....

Again, IL does not equal skill or ability to complete content.

rjc9000

*sees thread title*...

*Must... resist... IOSYS Overdrive...*

Dammit...



-----

Seriously though, if you go in the various LFG channels, then expect to run into some stupid rules for how people form groups.

The dungeon is perfectly winnable at 14k ilvl. If your team knows the secret art of coordination, then you can finish the dungeon in a much easier and faster fashion than a team full of clueless BiS 17k Ilvl players (as most zerg channels are...).

What makes me laugh a little is looking for DO DCs, Tactician GFs (buff GFs, as they're called in channels), or even MoF Renegades that have 15k+ Ilvl.

All 3 of the above specs need *some* gear to be effective, but you can have an effective setup without needing purple insignias, or R12 utilities, or Armor Kits...

bitt3rnightmar3

I would be scared to go in LFG for tong~ At least I know the people I run with aren't going to be rude and actually work together even if it's difficult. I think that is why I very rarely run anything with channels.

If you want it to be easier~ maybe you're not ready for the dungeon? It's not super easy- Even with a good group everyone is working and doing their best to buff/debuff/tank/DPS to make it feel easier. I never have ran ToNG with a channel. I usually just run it with friends.

fadetoblack04

We just unlocked tong this week and we have tried a few different makeups. It is hard, it's meant to be hard. Its actually kind of easy when you have a.c./do and a gf/op with decent dps. We have not been able to try it with a paladin yet. We have tried it with 3 dps 1 DC 1 gf... That's like playing dark souls with highest level bonfire aschetic with little gear.

The dps needs to be on point or the group will suffer many wipes by time gate's. If you still have a hard time in fbi/msp then tong is not for you.

mebengalsfan

I think the game should have two version of all content. Normal and Master. Master content has an IL of 2K higher than normal and the enemies are 1-2 level higher with higher stats.

Normal content would be a cakewalk for players who are 13K+ in IL. Whereas master would be where many of the harder content exist today.

Also, normal would award just lower tiered gear, not the latest gear and lower tier marks, not the later marks. This way, it ensure that players who run the latest master content is awarded appropriately and players who run the normal can learn the content and still work on building up their character.

This idea would allow the devs to update some older content with some added difficulty and maybe even add some new rare drop loot at in the treasure chest after the last boss.

Just an idea on how to expand and add more content for more players.

bitt3rnightmar3

mebengalsfan#9264 said:

I think the game should have two version of all content. Normal and Master. Master content has an IL of 2K higher than normal and the enemies are 1-2 level higher with higher stats.

Normal content would be a cakewalk for players who are 13K+ in IL. Whereas master would be where many of the harder content exist today.

Also, normal would award just lower tiered gear, not the latest gear and lower tier marks, not the later marks. This way, it ensure that players who run the latest master content is awarded appropriately and players who run the normal can learn the content and still work on building up their character.

This idea would allow the devs to update some older content with some added difficulty and maybe even add some new rare drop loot at in the treasure chest after the last boss.

Just an idea on how to expand and add more content for more players.

I remember they did this when the introduced Lair of Lostmauth into the game as a tier 3 dungeon back in mod 4-5. They had a regular LOL that you could run to understand the mechanics before you tried ELOL. That dungeon went away of course but it was interesting to provide an introduction though, I'm not sure that it was needed.

ravenskya

I think the Kiddie version of Spellplauge vs Master Spellplague has the right idea - it's similar in layout, has the same overall look - but it's a different dungeon with different bosses.

To get back to your point - we went into FBI last night, me on my 13k OP tank, a 15K GWF and a 15k DODC... and we 3 manned it just fine, the only wipes were at the final boss when we were having some lag issues and couldn't see some of the AOEs. That's not to say we didn't die - we did plenty of that but it was fun. So less than BIS players who know their characters can complete this end game stuff. And they need things to do - and you need things to work towards being able to do.

Go with your guild into ToNG.... don't use LFG. OR put together your own group. I'll be honest - I wouldn't go in there with a crew that I wasn't able to communicate well with and I certainly wouldn't pug it. I also wouldn't take in a scrub. You don't need a super high IL, but you need a LOT of teamwork and people that know how to play their characters well. A 13K HR wearing a mismatched tanking artifact set and regen rings because "it's how they like to roll" isn't going to bring much to the table in there.

bitt3rnightmar3

ravenskya said:

I think the Kiddie version of Spellplauge vs Master Spellplague has the right idea - it's similar in layout, has the same overall look - but it's a different dungeon with different bosses.

I don't really have the perspective of with Spellplague Caverns since I ran that dungeon in it's original state of difficulty and have fond memories of it in it's initial glory. I see MSP as a totally different dungeon.

I'd love for them to bring back old CN as a leveling dungeon though. That would be fantastic!!

Back to the point- Running Leveling SP in no way prepares you for MSP. If the mechanics that you would encounter aren't intact you're not learning anything or getting any better by having done it.

ravenskya

bitt3rnightmar3 said:

ravenskya said:

I think the Kiddie version of Spellplauge vs Master Spellplague has the right idea - it's similar in layout, has the same overall look - but it's a different dungeon with different bosses.

I don't really have the perspective of with Spellplague Caverns since I ran that dungeon in it's original state of difficulty and have fond memories of it in it's initial glory. I see MSP as a totally different dungeon.

I'd love for them to bring back old CN as a leveling dungeon though. That would be fantastic!!

True, thought I wasn't thinking of it as a "learning" experience so much as a visual experience. Give them something else to look at. Find your way around maybe. Though at the same time, when I went through MSPC the first time I was thrilled to see it and how pretty it was. I'd hate for them to lose that experience.

pitshade

Orcus is a serious DPS check. The rest of the dungeon can be managed with sane pulls and obeying the mechanics, though I've yet to be in a group that bothered with that for Withers. If you can kill the Souls until the mechanic triggers, it is just a question of staying alive, as Ive seen (or watched their health bars) bitt3rnightmar3 and her husband duo Ras Nsi after the rest of us flubbed it. (DC and Pally)

ravenskya

Withers reminded me of when we were first able to do Valindras - we tried and tried to do the mechanics and then realized that it was just way easier to all focus on killing her and ignoring the adds/coffins. Once we did the same with Withers we haven't had trouble since.

Orcus was never an issue for us since I took the HP curse on my Pally tank so I just kept buffing my own temp HP and we had all day if we wanted

The final boss, you really do need to pay attention to the mechanics and get those souls.

Now I'm sure if you actually ARE BIS and end game then you might even be able to ignore much of the Ras Nsi fight mechanics (other than the souls) but as a 13-15k group we had to focus on mechanics. Our first run didn't even take us as long as we expected. Normally we budget 4 hours for our first trip into an end game dungeon so that we can figure it all out. We did it in about 2 hours and that was with us taking breaks to walk dogs, get more popcorn etc. We also tend to do minimal research into a dungeon to see what we can do on our own. It was a lot of fun.

bitt3rnightmar3

pitshade said:

Orcus is a serious DPS check. The rest of the dungeon can be managed with sane pulls and obeying the mechanics, though I've yet to be in a group that bothered with that for Withers. If you can kill the Souls until the mechanic triggers, it is just a question of staying alive, as Ive seen (or watched their health bars) bitt3rnightmar3 and her husband duo Ras Nsi after the rest of us flubbed it. (DC and Pally)

Shh pit. I am scrub pug level DC. x_x -hides-

rjc9000

bitt3rnightmar3 said:

pitshade said:

Orcus is a serious DPS check. The rest of the dungeon can be managed with sane pulls and obeying the mechanics, though I've yet to be in a group that bothered with that for Withers. If you can kill the Souls until the mechanic triggers, it is just a question of staying alive, as Ive seen (or watched their health bars) bitt3rnightmar3 and her husband duo Ras Nsi after the rest of us flubbed it. (DC and Pally)

Shh pit. I am scrub pug level DC. x_x -hides-

Good thing you got a god tier floor inspector and a "not enough epeen level" OP to run with!

bitt3rnightmar3

rjc9000 said:

bitt3rnightmar3 said:

pitshade said:

Orcus is a serious DPS check. The rest of the dungeon can be managed with sane pulls and obeying the mechanics, though I've yet to be in a group that bothered with that for Withers. If you can kill the Souls until the mechanic triggers, it is just a question of staying alive, as Ive seen (or watched their health bars) bitt3rnightmar3 and her husband duo Ras Nsi after the rest of us flubbed it. (DC and Pally)

Shh pit. I am scrub pug level DC. x_x -hides-

Good thing you got a god tier floor inspector and a "not enough epeen level" OP to run with!

I wouldn't trade my friends for anything.

pharess11

Pit I have no idea what yer talking about me and rel are horri bad. And yes obviously my EPEEN lvl is two low according to some of the F rebels

pitshade

> @pharess11 said:
> Pit I have no idea what yer talking about me and rel are horri bad. And yes obviously my EPEEN lvl is two low according to some of the F rebels

pharess posting in the forums? Obviously a rare spawn... what trophy does he drop?

pharess11

You failed to get my rare drop sadly my EPEEN lvl was too low

mebengalsfan

Other games have normal and elite or normal and master or normal and epic dungeons. The harder dungeons are literally just harder, designed to challenge better geared players. In some cases, harder is end game dungeon were the easier is setup so that players can learn their character and how to play in a group, like the lower level dungeons we have in NW.

For end game this game really lacks content that allows lower IL players to experience it without the feeling of holding higher IL character back.

It is why I highly recommend having two dungeons one normal and one set to master. Normal would have enemies set to level 70 and 71 with lower stats. Master would have enemies set to a higher level and higher stats. This way, players with lower IL can still enjoy and get into the latest content but also won't feel like they are holding back higher IL players. It would also be a great way for guilds to help teach each other the mechanics. Development wise, it would be easier than creating a whole new dungeons for lower IL players.

The devs could also use older content and up its difficulty for higher IL player and it would have unique and better awards than the lower IL counter part.

This is food for thought for the community and dev team.

Unknown

This content has been removed.

wintersmoke

rjc9000 said:

*sees thread title*...

*Must... resist... IOSYS Overdrive...*

Dammit...



-----

Seriously though, if you go in the various LFG channels, then expect to run into some stupid rules for how people form groups.

The dungeon is perfectly winnable at 14k ilvl. If your team knows the secret art of coordination, then you can finish the dungeon in a much easier and faster fashion than a team full of clueless BiS 17k Ilvl players (as most zerg channels are...).

What makes me laugh a little is looking for DO DCs, Tactician GFs (buff GFs, as they're called in channels), or even MoF Renegades that have 15k+ Ilvl.

All 3 of the above specs need *some* gear to be effective, but you can have an effective setup without needing purple insignias, or R12 utilities, or Armor Kits...

How are new players supposed to learn to coordinate, without getting into the content?

wintersmoke

bitt3rnightmar3 said:

rjc9000 said:

bitt3rnightmar3 said:

pitshade said:

Orcus is a serious DPS check. The rest of the dungeon can be managed with sane pulls and obeying the mechanics, though I've yet to be in a group that bothered with that for Withers. If you can kill the Souls until the mechanic triggers, it is just a question of staying alive, as Ive seen (or watched their health bars) bitt3rnightmar3 and her husband duo Ras Nsi after the rest of us flubbed it. (DC and Pally)

Shh pit. I am scrub pug level DC. x_x -hides-

Good thing you got a god tier floor inspector and a "not enough epeen level" OP to run with!

I wouldn't trade my friends for anything. </p>

How about a beer>?

bitt3rnightmar3

wintersmoke said:

bitt3rnightmar3 said:

rjc9000 said:

bitt3rnightmar3 said:

pitshade said:

Orcus is a serious DPS check. The rest of the dungeon can be managed with sane pulls and obeying the mechanics, though I've yet to be in a group that bothered with that for Withers. If you can kill the Souls until the mechanic triggers, it is just a question of staying alive, as Ive seen (or watched their health bars) bitt3rnightmar3 and her husband duo Ras Nsi after the rest of us flubbed it. (DC and Pally)

Shh pit. I am scrub pug level DC. x_x -hides-

Good thing you got a god tier floor inspector and a "not enough epeen level" OP to run with!

I wouldn't trade my friends for anything. </p>

How about a beer>?

Hmm~ I'm a bit of a teetoler recently but don't take it as a snub of your Platonic friendly beer gesture!

dragonsbane3

Can we please move out of the era of participation trophy's please. This is not World of Warcraft and we don't have looking for raid,.... Holding peoples hands and coddling then will not teach them how to play their perspective class correctly. If you don't know how to play your class/ correct builds, then you have no point being in there. On that note ToNG is not hard by any means of the word. It is being completed every day with 13k ilvl people. It is far less about gear and more about know how to execute mechanics and class synergy.

Orcus is not a DPS check but a skill check for the person getting the balls. If they are good at avoiding all other dmg then even the worest dps teams will be able to kill it. If the team chooses to burn Wither's vs doing the actual mechanics, then that is the dps race. Once the chain stuns start going off on the avg group is when the HAMSTER hits the fan. As far as Ras goes, its a simple execute basic mechanics and don't tunnel the boss and its a win. 1.) don't get "break armor' debuff 2.) above all else focus the souls 3.) don't be an idiot and stand in front of the boss.


I am a firm believer that people can play what ever build and skills they prefer when soloing. However when doing group content and the "hardest" endgame runs then they should be playing whichever build is best for that content. As well as knowing what skills to be running and why they should be using them. I am amazed every day at the amount of OPs and DC's that are clueless as to what they should be running in there. Maybe it's the elitist in me but if you are considering doing endgame content then you should be somewhat of a subject matter expert on your class, build and how you synergize with the group before you just casually stroll through the front door and start complaining at how difficult something is.

araneax

Instead of asking for an easier TONG, how about we ask for better prizes for finishing it ?

bitt3rnightmar3

wintersmoke said:

rjc9000 said:

*sees thread title*...

*Must... resist... IOSYS Overdrive...*

Dammit...



-----

Seriously though, if you go in the various LFG channels, then expect to run into some stupid rules for how people form groups.

The dungeon is perfectly winnable at 14k ilvl. If your team knows the secret art of coordination, then you can finish the dungeon in a much easier and faster fashion than a team full of clueless BiS 17k Ilvl players (as most zerg channels are...).

What makes me laugh a little is looking for DO DCs, Tactician GFs (buff GFs, as they're called in channels), or even MoF Renegades that have 15k+ Ilvl.

All 3 of the above specs need *some* gear to be effective, but you can have an effective setup without needing purple insignias, or R12 utilities, or Armor Kits...

How are new players supposed to learn to coordinate, without getting into the content?

I personally find it's a lack of courage and an unwillingness to fail repeatedly that keeps people out. There are some that won't go in to even try a dungeon unless they know they will finish 100%. Those people usually only run ETOS/ESOT and punch the time clock. Sure, I might have duoed Ras'nsi with my husband but in a run a week before that I was helping people who had not finished it before for 4 hours! I tried the end boss countless times as they experimented and tried to beat it. I had already run the dungeon many times successfully so I had a pretty decent idea of the mechanics but it didn't matter. These people were learning and I stayed to help. Failure is the best teacher. There is no way around that. At the end of the 4 hours we won. There is no way an 'easier' version can teach people mechanics the way failure can. In the original dungeons, especially castle never it was very difficult to find a group to beat it starting out. The more people who try it and fail the more people who will learn that it is not impossible.

ragequittingdc

if anything make an even tougher version. the very first day it was possible to run tomb on ps4 there was already somebody showing off the new artifact in the enclave.

ravenskya

This is the time of the internet warrior - rather than taking the time to build a character, learn the dungeon, fail a million times in the try, they just ask for it to be easier then complain when there isn't anything to do