Disable Private Queue on engame dungeons

mynaam

Hi

Please concider Disabling Private Queue on end game dungeons. Private Queue is currently making it impossible for some classes (like TR) to do end game content like To9G.

Forcing parties to take only 1 tank and 1 dc will open up 3 dps slots where current end game teams only take 1 . this is a major problem and should be looked into it will just get worst as more and more content are released.

I know the 15k players will not like this but it will be good for any player that is 12k+.

I realise that this will propably be ignored, but now you can't say you did not know this was happening..

Current Party com For To9G is : Tank/Tank/DC/DC/GWF ... hr and cw are used as buffers sometimes if can't find 2nd dc.

It is clear that some classes are seriosly being prevented from progressing please look into this

lukejones77

The DEVs had 2 clear challenges - The class imbalances, and that all the content was too easy.

I really trusted that they would fix up the class balance issues before they released module content that was challenging enough, to prevent this kind of problem.

Sad, how wrong I was

jumpingmorks

You might get some hate for this and rightly so but in one short description you've found a solution better than however much planning and resouces are being funnelled by the devs into the current random queue changes.

Don't get me wrong, I don't disagree with you. TR's and SW's are being sidelined terribly for PvE content right now, it's almost criminal that they think trying to rework something that isn't broken (the queue rewards) is going to be easier and cheaper than to fix classes that have needed fixing and more relevancy for a long time. The rewards are terrible for the time invested, Devs are probably wondering why only faceroll groups are completing content.

It's because (and I've used this example several times before) if you have to run eGWD for Bloodstained shirt 50 times to get a drop, you just want to run that dungeon as fast and as many times in as short a time span as possible so you aren't left behind in dailies, content you want to run.

If you spend 2 hours in MSP for a rank 5, you start to wonder what you could have done in those 2 hours that would have been more rewarding.

It doesn't have to be loot that's worth a lot of AD, just useful to the player, whether to advance in some manner or make something desirable. I've seen players claim that when the loot tables were improved then ninja nerfed 1 week/ 2 weeks later. The AH proves this theory wrong I believe, things are cheaper than ever mostly.

---

In short, I really hope TR's and SW's get a little love that's been overdue for a long time now. I don't think this is the answer and I apologise in advance if anyone comes into this thread and not so diplomatically tells you that this isn't the solution we need.

I'm also sorry I don't have any ideas on how to fix the current problems Devs and Players face. It seems a bit unfair when I slap an idea down for not solving a problem it is designed to, but if I had an answer I would post it in a heartbeat.

armadeonx

Let me get this straight - TR is not as good as GWF or HR so stop Private Queuing?

jumpingmorks

armadeonx said:

Let me get this straight - TR is not as good as GWF or HR so stop Private Queuing?

Are you asking what we think or what pugs think? Most of them don't even know why they are asking for 2xDC/GF/OP/HGPS.

I get requests for my GF and get asked if he is a GF buffer. All GF's have the same buffs with the exception of the Tactitian 5% ITF buff and a dubious capstone, as a buffer tree it's awful to invest in I think personally. You could say Crushing Pin makes a GF Buffer, but any Conc, Prot, Tact can easily put 5 points into and only 5 points are needed to invest into it, it's in the first Tier of Tact feats. The rest is just gear.

On a more serious and personal note my guild leader Janne is relatively well known and mains a TR, can you imagine how long it would take for her to harvest our kidneys if we said to her that we couldn't pug with her in runs? :P

EDIT:
@defiantone99 said it better and in less words :P

armadeonx

Lol, I'm trying to nail down the point he's making, which is actually what Defiant also said but put differently

There is a class prejudice against TRs (and SWs to a lesser degree) but the solution isn't the removal of private queues - it's taken us forever to get them! The answer is the much requested class rework.

jumpingmorks

armadeonx said:

Lol, I'm trying to nail down the point he's making, which is actually what Defiant also said but put differently

There is a class prejudice against TRs (and SWs to a lesser degree) but the solution isn't the removal of private queues - it's taken us forever to get them! The answer is the much requested class rework.

This is something I think the majority of all players think too and also the reason why I don't agree the OP's post will solve anything. It's still a lot better than what the devs have proposed.

micky1p00

Simply. No.

This is exactly the opposite of a good solution to the problem.

jiubiizeekk

The only reason GWF is preferred. is because there is a wild interaction where DC's running Sheppard devotion, Tank/s Running Sheppard devotion Plus the Power sharing Makes the GWF's Defense/recovery/deflect/ARP ect boost his/her power. We dont have that Feature on our class's Which leaves us in the dust. The only time my SW can DPs is when i have my rotation on point. and have that rotation going constantly Which means i need APgain and artifacts/mount combat power up.
As for TR. I've seen some beastly TR's But again its all rotation and the thing is. We get 1shot, alot.

jumpingmorks

zajojajo said:

I saw CW MOF one time with huge DPS i don't know how he doing this because they cant DPS, must be some cheater.

MoF's can DPS fine, the investment to do so is just heavy. Just because he was an MoF we shouldn't assume he was Renegade, he was most likely Thaum.

lukejones77

zajojajo said:

I saw CW MOF one time with huge DPS i don't know how he doing this because they cant DPS, must be some cheater.

"Huge DPS" can easily be a function of how much buff/debuff is going on, and whether or not you have anyone else in the party capable of doing huge DPS. If your MoF was going head to head with a BIS GWF, and doing huge DPS, then *that* would be amazing.
If you only have 1 real DPS in the party (any class), and you seriously, seriously buff/debuff for them, they will look HUGE.
You can check out the videos of this web page (full screen), showing one of the game's best DPS, with one of the game's best buffers, shredding bosses in seconds. Click on "Why MoF?" to see how buffers multiply damage much better than additional DPS in the party.

https://cylernwo.wixsite.com/voodoo

wintersmoke

mynaam said:

Hi

Please concider Disabling Private Queue on end game dungeons. Private Queue is currently making it impossible for some classes (like TR) to do end game content like To9G.

Forcing parties to take only 1 tank and 1 dc will open up 3 dps slots where current end game teams only take 1 . this is a major problem and should be looked into it will just get worst as more and more content are released.

I know the 15k players will not like this but it will be good for any player that is 12k+.

I realise that this will propably be ignored, but now you can't say you did not know this was happening..

Current Party com For To9G is : Tank/Tank/DC/DC/GWF ... hr and cw are used as buffers sometimes if can't find 2nd dc.

It is clear that some classes are seriosly being prevented from progressing please look into this

I like this idea, a lot better than the idea that the devs came up with, but there is one problem. There needs to be an exception for guild/alliance runs.

neirgara

mynaam said:

Hi

Please concider Disabling Private Queue on end game dungeons. Private Queue is currently making it impossible for some classes (like TR) to do end game content like To9G.

Forcing parties to take only 1 tank and 1 dc will open up 3 dps slots where current end game teams only take 1 . this is a major problem and should be looked into it will just get worst as more and more content are released.

I know the 15k players will not like this but it will be good for any player that is 12k+.

I realise that this will propably be ignored, but now you can't say you did not know this was happening..

Current Party com For To9G is : Tank/Tank/DC/DC/GWF ... hr and cw are used as buffers sometimes if can't find 2nd dc.

It is clear that some classes are seriosly being prevented from progressing please look into this

I fail to understand, how disabling Private Queue will make people taking you with them.

Neither will people stop preforming groups and running ToNG with 2Tank, 2DC, 1DD (mostly because that combination so far has the greatest chance of success), nor will it make people join the queue alone for random parties (as especially the difficult dungeons need everyone to communicate and know what to do, which does not work with randoms most of the time).

The only change, I can see with that, is, that people are not able anymore to run lesser difficult content without a healer or tank and making it much more difficult for guilds and friends to play together.

Also I don't think, it will work forcing people to take a TR with them, if any other class would be more efficient.

What you need is content, that rewards you / enable you to utilize control powers or the specialties of different classes, so a TR, which usually is neither a tank, a buffer or as adept at damage dealing as a GWF has the ability to shine. And this is something, that I really would like them to incorporate in the game. And until then, try to make some friends (perhaps even join a guild), get invited to channels for group building on new and difficult content and make yourself known to be a very proficient player who knows how to use that TR. This way you have a chance to find some exmperimental players, who will try a ToNG run with an unconventional group constellation.

lukejones77

neirgara said:

I fail to understand, how disabling Private Queue will make people taking you with them.

Neither will people stop preforming groups and running ToNG with 2Tank, 2DC, 1DD (mostly because that combination so far has the greatest chance of success), nor will it make people join the queue alone for random parties (as especially the difficult dungeons need everyone to communicate and know what to do, which does not work with randoms most of the time).
.

The reason is that you can't form a 2 tank, 2 DC 1DD party without using private queuing.

The root problem isn't the queuing, it's the class imbalance. Looks like the DEVs gave up trying to balance, and are resorting to a queuing solution of their own - random queuing.

I think the balance should be fixed instead of doing a bad fix to fix a worse problem. In the end you just create a bigger mess to fix.

The point of this approach is that without private queuing you can only take 1 healer and 1 tank. You must take 3 DPS. It would be a huge boost for CW MoFs, since they get to sneak in under the DPS label, and they are actually *the* awesome buff/debuff class (check out that link I posted above guys).
Still, until people realize that, it may be easier for Trs, SWs and SS CWs to get into a queue.

wintersmoke

lukejones77 said:

neirgara said:

I fail to understand, how disabling Private Queue will make people taking you with them.

Neither will people stop preforming groups and running ToNG with 2Tank, 2DC, 1DD (mostly because that combination so far has the greatest chance of success), nor will it make people join the queue alone for random parties (as especially the difficult dungeons need everyone to communicate and know what to do, which does not work with randoms most of the time).
.

The reason is that you can't form a 2 tank, 2 DC 1DD party without using private queuing.

The root problem isn't the queuing, it's the class imbalance. Looks like the DEVs gave up trying to balance, and are resorting to a queuing solution of their own - random queuing.

I think the balance should be fixed instead of doing a bad fix to fix a worse problem. In the end you just create a bigger mess to fix.

The point of this approach is that without private queuing you can only take 1 healer and 1 tank. You must take 3 DPS. It would be a huge boost for CW MoFs, since they get to sneak in under the DPS label, and they are actually *the* awesome buff/debuff class (check out that link I posted above guys).
Still, until people realize that, it may be easier for Trs, SWs and SS CWs to get into a queue.

I don't think the devs gave up on class balances. I think tat while they were looking at the data to find out what balance changes needed to be made, they found broken things that made class balances less important. I hope that once these changes are made, the debs can continue, with the right information, to "complete" the class balance project. It will never really be finished, but hopefully they can get things to a point where a few small changes will be all that is needed.

lukejones77

wintersmoke said:

I don't think the devs gave up on class balances. I think tat while they were looking at the data to find out what balance changes needed to be made, they found broken things that made class balances less important. I hope that once these changes are made, the debs can continue, with the right information, to "complete" the class balance project. It will never really be finished, but hopefully they can get things to a point where a few small changes will be all that is needed.

It's all about class balance, even when the obvious problem is classes skyrocketing buff/debuff to destroy content.

After all this time of broken neglect the Lead Systems Designer, responsible for balance issues, came out 12 days ago in a recent twitch to explain what was happening behind the scenes. He had these take-home messages:
- focus on fixing PvP problems
- TR needs a little love, because it's not ranged ( 17 mins in)

So, a very small ray of needed sunshine for TRs, but.... really? I get how that makes sense on paper, if you're not actually playing the game, but surely that's not the level of understanding with class balance problems???

I had pretty much given up on class balance fixes, and this video only confirmed it. This guy is deep in the numbers, but seems to have little idea on how they actually play out in party dynamics.

kalina311

zajojajo said:

I saw CW MOF one time with huge DPS i don't know how he doing this because they cant DPS, must be some cheater.

they (mof ) cant do dps just like you cant theory craft... apparently lol

heraldfayez

honestly removing private queue to public for end game content means i'll never run that content again because i don't want to be stuck 5 hours in a dungeon for a rank 5 from chest that i paid a dragon key for it so basicly TRs add nothing to a party as it is right now so they are left out so what that dosn't mean anything some TRs out there can do decent amount of damage if not high and they aleready have the new gear and are progressing whoever asked for this change simply want to be carried throughout content with excuse of not being invited if i know a player isn't that good or holds party down i simply don't want to party with them and i should have freedom of doing so and that is what private queu is for so removing it is a big NO NO otherwise high end game players won't even bother run unrewarding end game content since they are aleready well or fully geared so it's pointless to them

archangelzorak01

You need some better friends. I've done T9G many times on my TR as primary DPS. All 30-35 min. runs.

lukejones77

archangelzorak01 said:

You need some better friends. I've done T9G many times on my TR as primary DPS. All 30-35 min. runs.

Yup, the problem that will be addressed next is to control the excessive buff/debuffing. You can get any DPS through as the primary with that - and.... they gonna nerf it. You'll have to see what other changes come with that nerfing, and if you can still be primary DPS.
That's still only part of the problem. You said it: "get better friends". The fact that you have the ability to work around game design issues with friends doesn't mean that there aren't serious game design issues that need fixing.

Remember when Tiamat first came out, before all the power creep? That was an end-state module design where the DEVs set the item level entry, and the only way the community could get it to work was to create special chat channels for high gear players. They had everyone waiting outside the door, for the secret timer count down when they'd all quickly slip in, leaving the lower geared behind. Again: The fact that you have the ability to work around game design issues with friends doesn't mean that there aren't serious game design issues that need fixing.
The Tiamat issue wasn't *that* bad, since everyone could eventually get in by gearing up enough. This situation is different. When you've already topped out the maximum potential of your class, and you're way below what other classes have to offer in the same role (DPS), there's a big problem.
There will be those that have the right friends etc to make it work, but they're really not helping the fundamental problem by saying "get better friends".

senseiwasd

3 DPS, 1 Healer, 1 Tank, isn't viable in endgame content.

Further, they nerfed the DPS on SW's by 50% on Preview, and delete the post every time I mention it. So... Yeah. One DPS, two tops, and he needs to be a tough DPS. There's just no way around it until they stop nerfing folks, and start rebalancing stuff.

And "rebalancing" does not mean reducing the effectiveness of anything, ever. You can boost things all you want, but nerfing is tantamount to thievery when that option is open.

jumpingmorks

Didn't they just rework debuffs?

mentinmindmaker

I have more or less given up on ToNG on my 15,7k CW. At least until I make a MoF Renegade spec. It is just too hard to find groups when you do not have a social group to run with.

It seems TR, SW and maybe to a lesser extent HR has the same problem.

That SHOULD be a major problem for Cryptic, since a huge proportion of the well-geared playerbase is denied content they are geared for and want to run. Customer unhappiness ensues.

While enforcing class composition would partially solve the problem, it would just be a bandaid on the root problem.

* Buffs are too efficient, making a OF/GF/DC/DC/GWF(or HR) setup far superior
* The environment is very lethal, so characters with high survivability is very desired. Also two healers is then very good.
* GWFs are too good. They are THE best dps class(by far compared to some others), and probably also got the best defense of all the dps classes.
* HRs are a good number two with high dps and some defense

To fix this some endgame class balancing needs to take place(and some of this probably should be nerfs, to prevent players from outpacing the content):
* TRs are single target specialists.. but then they REALLY need to shine at single target damage
* Given CW and SW defensive weakness they need to outpace GWF/HR in damage
* Stacking of the DC buffs(and buffs in general) needs to be reduced. (This is already handled for debuffs)

That way the endgame teams have real options.. bring single target damage vs. AE, bring a defensive solid group vs. a glass cannon high dps group. Such choices are good for the game.

Currently you get the best dps and the best defenses in one package, the GWF and possibly HRs.
That's not good.

senseiwasd

mentinmindmaker said:

* Stacking of the DC buffs(and buffs in general) needs to be reduced. (This is already handled for debuffs)

This is the mentality that is killing us, don't encourage it. Yer slapping the DC's in the face to "help" other classes - that is not how things should be done, ever.

Up the DPS/Defenses on the other classes, improve their debuff options, and/or reduce mob damage/defenses, and you're fine. No need to tick anyone off, when you can just make everyone happy.

We really need to make that a religious mantra around here.

dragonsbane3

I personally do not group often with people outside of my guild/ alliance often. But tonight for the hell of it I asked out and got a random group for ToNG. Before this run I had only 1 successful run with my guild and 2 failed guild runs. The party make up was OP tank, AC dc, Templock SW, MoF CW and myself SW combat HR. The run was a joke, it felt like running a ETOS and we finished it just over the 30 min mark.

I understand most people want to run a DPS build but lets be honest, it is just not viable atm. And with loadouts why not have a support build to be able to knock out the dungeon fast and then play DPS everywhere else. All classes have viable support builds, better off learning how to do it all.

jumpingmorks

wintersmoke said:

lukejones77 said:

neirgara said:

I fail to understand, how disabling Private Queue will make people taking you with them.

Neither will people stop preforming groups and running ToNG with 2Tank, 2DC, 1DD (mostly because that combination so far has the greatest chance of success), nor will it make people join the queue alone for random parties (as especially the difficult dungeons need everyone to communicate and know what to do, which does not work with randoms most of the time).
.

The reason is that you can't form a 2 tank, 2 DC 1DD party without using private queuing.

The root problem isn't the queuing, it's the class imbalance. Looks like the DEVs gave up trying to balance, and are resorting to a queuing solution of their own - random queuing.

I think the balance should be fixed instead of doing a bad fix to fix a worse problem. In the end you just create a bigger mess to fix.

The point of this approach is that without private queuing you can only take 1 healer and 1 tank. You must take 3 DPS. It would be a huge boost for CW MoFs, since they get to sneak in under the DPS label, and they are actually *the* awesome buff/debuff class (check out that link I posted above guys).
Still, until people realize that, it may be easier for Trs, SWs and SS CWs to get into a queue.

I don't think the devs gave up on class balances. I think tat while they were looking at the data to find out what balance changes needed to be made, they found broken things that made class balances less important. I hope that once these changes are made, the debs can continue, with the right information, to "complete" the class balance project. It will never really be finished, but hopefully they can get things to a point where a few small changes will be all that is needed.

I don't play SW or TR, at all, but they've needed some love for a very long time. Everytime I see Devs "fixing" an SW power, I just see their relevance diminish further. There is a reason some folk call them buglocks.