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Guild friends arguing about GF dmg.

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  • silence1xsilence1x Member Posts: 1,503 Arc User
    An OP GF really only matters in PvP or if you're chasing Paingiver. Otherwise, in a PvE party, everyone wins - dungeon beat, loot received :)
    I aim to misbehave
  • dyukillerdyukiller Member Posts: 89 Arc User
    manipulos said:

    dyukiller said:


    Feat reckless attacker need to be struck to gain stacks,well how to get this stacks fast?
    ....... not usual mechanics? maaaaayybeee :D

    I've heard about that, but with my luck I would have to run that particular dungeon about 500 times to get that specific item. It doesn't matter since I don't have the gear/artifacts/enchants/companions/etc. to do that kind of damage yet anyway LOL
    We're in the same boat! lol
  • grimahgrimah Member Posts: 1,658 Arc User
    I like to think myself as an advocate for balanced classes and their skills, which I have voiced on my previous mains (CW, GWF) when they were overpowered and eventually quit playing them because they were not fixed. I would hate to play any class that is deemed overpowered, easy or a one trick pony (like when SW relied everything on tyrannical threat).

    Anyway I did some research into this to find out if there were any bugs associated with griffon's wrath. I ran various groups to see if there were any oddities with the damage and found none.

    Also @rjc9000 crunched some numbers here to display the crazy high damage, which can be switched out for GWF easily (as they have alot of personal multipliers also:

    https://www.desmos.com/calculator/tt3teh0r5p


    All in all, my conclusion of griffon's wrath is not overpowered at all, and in my personal opinion it's a one trick pony skill that only applies to very few situations. The skill is not affected by any cooldown reduction skills (DC, OP) so it's pretty sucky in anything but this supped up debuff group. If you are the kind of person who runs with the same kind of people thats great.

    But for me there are far better encounters to use. Also those kind of videos are such bad misinformation will cause alot of unhappy gamers like @dyukiller mentioned.
    Creator of the featured survival horror foundry: "The Silence of Haydenwick" Video Review
    and also the featured satirical comedic adventure "A Call for Heroes".
  • rjc9000rjc9000 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,351 Arc User
    On that graph and I kinda rushed in writing it, so there are a few things which may not make sense if you swap the values.

    (Ex:If you turn on CA comps, you can also turn on Crit Severity and 4 dmg comps, which means you're getting more damage than you should be logically, so make sure you account for the 5 comp limit)

    Anyone who wants to critique how I wrote the graph is free to do so.

  • pitshadepitshade Member Posts: 5,276 Arc User
    "Anyone who wants to critique how I wrote the graph is free to do so."

    You say this only because Sharp is AFK.
    "We have always been at war with Dread Vault" ~ Little Brother
  • rjc9000rjc9000 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,351 Arc User
    Sharp is a CW main. CWs are illuminati.

    Just because he has an all seing eye doesn't mean it doesn't have downsides, such as always knowing that I'm cracking jokes at/with him.

  • dyukillerdyukiller Member Posts: 89 Arc User
    edited August 2017
    :D Neverwinter needs huge improvements.

    GF is a support class that has a broken mechanic when using a expecific pieace of armor.
    something is overstacking / working better than intent / jumping a decimal case, idk and idc.

    I know you may love the class, you may spent a lot on your GF, but beside this be honest, you know, deep inside you know!
    but let's analyze:
    Tank usually have/do:
    1. More resistence than DD classes.
    2. shields and heavy armors.
    3. skills that heal you self.
    4. skills that protect allies.
    5. skills that force enemies attack you.
    6. Naturaly more HP than other classes.
    check this options above and respond to you self: Is Gf a Tank or not?

    Well, if after that you may deny that gf is a tank, you must be in the right game, cuz Neverwinter is a broken game,
    where people that wants play seriously is Impaired by genius that take a class and decide by himself what it should do,
    and the worst part: it works! :D:D



    i mean, if you're playing a race game, ok , and there's ferraris and lamborghinis to run on alsphat, and jeeps and hammers to run on dirt, it's obivious.
    On neverwinter you pick the jeep and run on asphat against ferraris and lamborghinis and win. hahahahahaha
    Post edited by dyukiller on
  • dairyzeusdairyzeus Member Posts: 304 Arc User
    dyukiller said:



    GF is a support class that has a broken mechanic when using a expecific pieace of armor.

    That interaction is not even the core of GF damage, it's just a convenience to get to your damage stacks a little quicker. A good GF can keep up reckless attacker stacks without that item just fine.
    dyukiller said:


    something is overstacking / working better than intent / jumping a decimal case, idk and idc.

    There's no bugs... RJC's quick graph he threw together pretty clearly shows just how important correctly stacking buffs and debuffs can increase your damage.

    Now, you can still argue that GFs shouldn't have access to so many self buffs, or that the base damage on griffon's should be lowered. Those are all fine arguments and a matter of personal opinion based on what role you think the GF should play. To simply say their damage is a result of a bug is just wrong though.
  • rjc9000rjc9000 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,351 Arc User
    Tanking losely means just defending to me.

    I can defend my team by making sure enemies get deleted, because the best way to make sure enemies don't kill your teammates is to make sure the enemies are dead.

    This goes double if I'm paired with DPSers who aren't the greatest.

  • jaime4312#3760 jaime4312 Member Posts: 844 Arc User
    edited August 2017
    @dyukiller wrong, with the exception of OP (and it's not by that much), all classes can get to similar maximum hitpoints, if you are a pver only then this is not that "obvious" but if you pvp then you will see every single class in the game can get well above 200k+ hp.

    So, you guys complain about GF damage and OP's occcasionally as well but of course you are right with the rest of classes being able to achieve ridicuously good levels of survability that can surpass that of those classes you rant about. So, why aren't you suggesting that non GFs/OPs should get all their defensive stats (hp, lifesteal, deflection and defense) cut down by at least 60% so they can't rival survability of tanks? The answer is, double standard: if you don't like something about x class you call for nerfs but if your own benefits from the very same mechanic/stats of course it should kept that way, right?
  • tom#6998 tom Member Posts: 952 Arc User
    I love how many ppl that have little to no knowledge of gf come here to complain xD
  • dyukillerdyukiller Member Posts: 89 Arc User
    edited August 2017
    hahahahahahahaa

    alright ppl, let's go.

    First the "problem" isn't griffon damage,op hp,classes that can survive, i was waiting for someone say somthing about the hammer on dirt too :D

    ppl usualy take atention to a detail and ignore the whole thing, i'm not and i believe nobody is asking for a nerf on griffon or gf damage in general here, the main point is this "mechanic" that allows GF kill bosses with few hits (11,b acttualy i don't know if this still working on mod 12) if this is right and devs confirm that too, i'll build a GF today, cuz it is most overpowered class in game! i mean, what is the negative part of tank,run fast, buff my self and allies, and plus instakill bosses?

    "There's no bugs." @dairyzeus

    I've been playing it since mod 5, and i saw it a looooooooooot, everytime someone find a way to "one shoot" everything.
    I remember to create post here and on reddit about "hit-kill" when:

    Tr shadow of demise and plague.
    Op bubble reflect
    GF reflecting dmg
    SW soul puppet* (this one ppl get really mad with me, i didn't know it was a secret)
    Commander strike and GWF
    Wild elixir (this one ban me from reddit) :D
    and now GF "dps".

    in all situations above i've heard the same arguments:

    "ppl don't know the class and came here to complain"
    "everything is right, there's no bug"
    "you need to learn how the classe stacks works"
    "you're jealous, becouse you can't do more dmg than me"

    all of them get fixed/nerf, so by my experience in this game, this will end soon.

    and we know when they fix thing like this they don't put on patch notes, so you'll logon and simply:
    Hello darkness, my old friend
    I've come to talk with you again......


    you'll be fine, but if you spent money/time to create a INSTAkill GF, you may be desapointed to became another into the fray spammer/ turn the kinght valor on DUDE! (just kidding i love you guys)

    so at least we need to be honest with new players that don't know if gf insta kill bosses is a bug or ordinary.
    if it is ordinary, why we never saw it before?
    the post intent is previne ppl from spent they resouces and time thinking something like that video is working as the project, for when they fix ppl can't say: nobody told me.


    ° that i know in xbox version mod 11.b
    *when SW soul puppet was one shooting almost everything, i saw a lot of people creating, leveling up, buying enchantments, e one day it's gone and there's a lot of secondary lvl 70 SW with lengendaries weapons/off hands and mythc artifacts just to do leadership,pray and refine ad.
    Post edited by dyukiller on
  • grimahgrimah Member Posts: 1,658 Arc User

    No DPS class has an 80% RID shield. I wish they did. GWF had a 50% DR boost from Unstoppable, that was considered OP and got nerfed. Like I said before, we are in the twilight zone. Total class and role imbalance is what we have on our hands.

    Firstly, in MMOs classes usually have different/unique abilities, this is the whole point of having a class system.

    Also it sounds like you are unfamiliar with how GF block works. There are penalties to using a shield, it does not increase attack speed/damage etc like a GWF, so I'll explain here for you:

    When you block as a GF, your damage is minimized. You can't use encounters/dailies and you move slower and also restricting to two low damage at-wills.
    Creator of the featured survival horror foundry: "The Silence of Haydenwick" Video Review
    and also the featured satirical comedic adventure "A Call for Heroes".
  • dyukillerdyukiller Member Posts: 89 Arc User
    edited August 2017
    Firstly, in MMOs classes usually have different/unique abilities, this is the whole point of having a class system.


    hum...... this is all about i've been talking from the beginning.
  • dyukillerdyukiller Member Posts: 89 Arc User



    Yes, GF is a TANK, it is supposed to buff and tank. Instead, it is a top DD, buffs AND tanks all at the same time. Why have DPS classes when the GF and DC are DDs and do not even need DPS classes for support.

    exactly
    exactly
    and exactly.
  • oria1oria1 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 263 Arc User
    edited August 2017
    About the DPS (for all classes). As long as we have a broken buff system that all buffs multiply from the same class and from other classes on top... and then get multiplied again by the debuffs (which is the only right multiplication) you will have those issues.

    Lets say that all DD classes do the same damage, for argument sake 100k. With the right buff and debuff team you can make that 100k hit, deal 3.39 MILLION damage. Now by a weird interaction of either an item or bugged skill or potion or anything, that class will gain just a 30k extra damage advantage and by so it will do 130k hit, its not a big deal right? Well the buffs and debuffs will make it jump to 4.41 million.

    That's what people are saying here. Yes the class should not have that "innocent" extra 30k hit but we have to admit the buffs should not make it an extra 1.020.000. Remember we are talking about 130k self buffed hits...wanna see the numbers for a 1.000.000 vs 1.300.000 hits?

    The total buff that 2X dc, paly and a GF can give is close to 921% (or even more) at peek due to buffs being multiplicative and not additive like debuffs are (and I can never understand why).

    To conclude, with buff teams I've seen most classes destroy bosses with equal speed. For GWFs and TRs I even have them on video. But we need to ask and think for ourselves. If GFs were broken, they would do damage on their own... like puppets did.. or the people that were using the wild storm elixir, did...or the TRs with Shadow of demise and plaguefire did .

    Now if the GF should or not do much DPS that's up for discussion but as far as being broken, maybe just a little but that buffs make it a LOT.

    Just my 2 cents and talking out of experience from the many GF friends I have.
    Post edited by oria1 on




  • marnivalmarnival Member Posts: 1,432 Arc User
    edited August 2017

    Quit lying. You know GF can solo FBI right? The nerf will come, your lies will not save you. I mean you guys brag all the time how OP the GF is, that is until people call for nerfs. Then all of a sudden it is weak. It is so wild. Do you think lying on the forums is going to make the devs not balance a broken class? You know it is very overpowered, or you would not all be switching to GF or building DPS GFs.

    No he does not lie but you obviously have some serious ego problems that put you on a never ending crusade agains the Gf class.

    Do you have a cape with the text nerf Gfs that you go around with lol.

    Seriously you should read the post you made in your nerf campaign should be in the 100ds now, jeeez you need to get out take a beer and think about the differance between game and real life ........

  • marnivalmarnival Member Posts: 1,432 Arc User

    marnival said:

    Quit lying. You know GF can solo FBI right? The nerf will come, your lies will not save you. I mean you guys brag all the time how OP the GF is, that is until people call for nerfs. Then all of a sudden it is weak. It is so wild. Do you think lying on the forums is going to make the devs not balance a broken class? You know it is very overpowered, or you would not all be switching to GF or building DPS GFs.

    No he does not lie but you obviously have some serious ego problems that put you on a never ending crusade agains the Gf class.

    Do you have a cape with the text nerf Gfs that you go around with lol.

    Seriously you should read the post you made in your nerf campaign should be in the 100ds now, jeeez you need to get out take a beer and think about the differance between game and real life ........

    As a matter of fact I do. It is a nice cape. I have a tattoo of it as well. Both terramak and rgutscheradev have noticed how overpowered GF damage is. It is not only us players. Only DPS GFs deny it, pretty funny.
    Thought so :) .

    I have been one shot by IBS quite a few times never happens vs Gf, one rotated sure, one shot never.

    Gf do no damage when blocking Gwf do not have that problem, once cc diminish return hits Gf full rotation is probably history but that remains to be seen. As it is Gwf complaining about Gf damage is just ego issues nothing more, the lifesteal + unstoppable now that piercing is adjusted makes Gwf very strong in pvp indeed. Cw should and is a bigger problem as Tr for Gwf then Gfs.

    But if you invested in a cape and some nice tattoo your dedication to the cause is at least admirable .......
  • marnivalmarnival Member Posts: 1,432 Arc User

    marnival said:

    marnival said:

    Quit lying. You know GF can solo FBI right? The nerf will come, your lies will not save you. I mean you guys brag all the time how OP the GF is, that is until people call for nerfs. Then all of a sudden it is weak. It is so wild. Do you think lying on the forums is going to make the devs not balance a broken class? You know it is very overpowered, or you would not all be switching to GF or building DPS GFs.

    No he does not lie but you obviously have some serious ego problems that put you on a never ending crusade agains the Gf class.

    Do you have a cape with the text nerf Gfs that you go around with lol.

    Seriously you should read the post you made in your nerf campaign should be in the 100ds now, jeeez you need to get out take a beer and think about the differance between game and real life ........

    As a matter of fact I do. It is a nice cape. I have a tattoo of it as well. Both terramak and rgutscheradev have noticed how overpowered GF damage is. It is not only us players. Only DPS GFs deny it, pretty funny.
    Thought so :) .

    I have been one shot by IBS quite a few times never happens vs Gf, one rotated sure, one shot never.

    Gf do no damage when blocking Gwf do not have that problem, once cc diminish return hits Gf full rotation is probably history but that remains to be seen. As it is Gwf complaining about Gf damage is just ego issues nothing more, the lifesteal + unstoppable now that piercing is adjusted makes Gwf very strong in pvp indeed. Cw should and is a bigger problem as Tr for Gwf then Gfs.

    But if you invested in a cape and some nice tattoo your dedication to the cause is at least admirable .......
    It has nothing to do with ego. It is due to the Mod 4 nerfs to the GWF for it being a tanky DPS. We even lost our Takedown prone, GF got to keep an encounter prone. We lost Unstoppable DR, that was replaced in Mod 6 with Temp HP. The Temp HP has been nerfed to uselessness as well. Now I have GFs telling me that it is okay for GF to be a DPS TANK, after GWF was nerfed for being a DPS off-tank. It is absurd, and you all know it is absurd. TR was nerfed, SW was nerfed, CW was nerfed, HR was nerfed, OP was nerfed. But, GF was buffed to be stronger than them all. There were some numbers that had extra zeros accidently added somewhere during the GF rework.
    If you where right it would be absurd however you leave out everything you want and then top if off with some half truths.

    Gwf is having no problem what so ever in to days pvp if built and geared right(loadout takes care of build)

    Tr is still utterly broken in pvp and have been OP for longer then any class.

    Cw is probably top dog with Tr in pvp these days.

    OP doing more then fine and will be quite a bit stronger with cc diminish return and pve gear maby even the new top dog after Cws.

    Hr need a bit of tweeking but doing fine in pvp both as hybrid and full combat and can be a real pain as trapper and nightmare for those without elven.

    Gwf ability to fight during unstoppable together with lifesteal + hard fast hitting at will more then take care of any Temp hp that you complain about.

    Gf being stronger then all is truly a lie nothing more.

    Cw is far stronger 1-1 so is Cw and BIS Pal is more a threat these days, BIS Gwf kills Gf 1-1 most of the time unless Gf get some lucky rotation in with lion, without lion even the strongest Gf is not enough to kill the best Gwfs.

    Only in PVE Gf outshines Gwf in TANKING not overall dps, they CAN reach high DPS single targets if they have a tank with them due to KC and buffs but if you as a Gwf fall after a Gf in dps that tanks a dungeon you most probably will have to rethink companion + build and rotation.....

  • dyukillerdyukiller Member Posts: 89 Arc User
    edited August 2017
    there is much more gameplay issues than we can imagine when something like this is happening.
    now ppl is asking on lfg chat for GF dps, they are setting up parties with only support classes and excluding DD from DG, like wasn't hard enough to find good dc and tank before that,
    friend of mine, 16.4k cw can't find a group to play, so he took all of his enchants off and made a gf to get a call for fbi.

    when you have to abadon an end game dps toon to have a place, it is obvious that something wrong, i think it time to devs check it out.

    it goes like this now:
    -looking for group: need gf dps for fbi.
    - 16k hr here
    - no ty.

    in the end, we lost a great support class and our place as dmg dealers. #sad

    without mention about 5 sups could set 3 or 4 DG groups
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