The Clerics Have Been Broken This Whole Time!

nekogaming · August 2017

When are they going to Fix the Devoted Cleric? All moves in divinity mode hit weaker than their non divinity counterpart. They even hit under the powers tool tip by 30 to 60%. The way I tested this was: new load out, zero boons except max guild armor pen boon to eliminate variables, no overloads and no pet. I tried this multiple different days and patches attacking target dummies In 2 different locations. Every single power in divinity mode hits less, and varies by what power, its not even a small 5 percent variable. every one is over 20% less! I also clear my empowerment so it doesn't effect this test with heals or astral shield. I've tested all the way back in winter festival but it was becoming too expensive to test with respect tokens. Now with loadouts, I can test all I want to prove Its 100% broken, and every time the test consistently shows always lower damage in divinity mode

beckylunatic · August 2017

That's how DC mechanics work. Powers cast in Divinity deal less damage, and build Empowerment. The Empowered cast typically deals more damage or has additional abilities, making it stronger than either the base power or a Divinity cast.

dupeks · August 2017

beckylunatic said:
That's how DC mechanics work. Powers cast in Divinity deal less damage, and build Empowerment. The Empowered cast typically deals more damage or has additional abilities, making it stronger than either the base power or a Divinity cast.

Yes, but are you sure it hasn't been broken this whole time? I know it's always worked like this (and seemingly is intended) but perhaps it's just another one of those long-standing bugs we keep discovering :P

Silliness aside, we don't really have any reason to believe this is not working as intended.

Edit: in loldefense of the OP, the wiki (which we all know is 100% reliable source of truth for the game) does have some vague-sounding description: "While using Channel Divinity your Encounter powers are strengthened by Divinity and gain enhanced effects."

I'll check eventually if it matches the in-game tooltip (craps shoot).

nekogaming · August 2017

> @beckylunatic said:
> That's how DC mechanics work. Powers cast in Divinity deal less damage, and build Empowerment. The Empowered cast typically deals more damage or has additional abilities, making it stronger than either the base power or a Divinity cast.

Says nowhere on the cleric that powers do less damage in divinity mode

beckylunatic · August 2017

dupeks said:
Edit: in loldefense of the OP, the wiki (which we all know is 100% reliable source of truth for the game) does have some vague-sounding description: "While using Channel Divinity your Encounter powers are strengthened by Divinity and gain enhanced effects."

Uhhh... going to go on a limb and say this page hasn't been updated since before DCs got their Empowerment mechanic update.

dupeks · August 2017

beckylunatic said:

dupeks said:
Edit: in loldefense of the OP, the wiki (which we all know is 100% reliable source of truth for the game) does have some vague-sounding description: "While using Channel Divinity your Encounter powers are strengthened by Divinity and gain enhanced effects."
Uhhh... going to go on a limb and say this page hasn't been updated since before DCs got their Empowerment mechanic update.

Well... it's still up to date with the in-game tooltip XD

in-game tooltip said:
Pressing Tab channels divine power, replacing your normal At-Wills with Punishing Light and Soothing Light.
While using Channel Divinity your Encounter powers are strengthened by Divinity and gain enhanced effects.

Encounters used in this way require 1 Divine Symbol worth of Divine Power and grant a stack of Empowered and you may only have 3 stacks of Empowered.

Divinity is generated by casting your At Will powers.

~~I also personally never recall any official statement on the matter either, but I had a long gap in playing which included the level cap increase and a couple reworks...~~

Did a little searching:
https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/547032/official-feedback-thread-devoted-cleric-changes/p1

Fits my NW hiatus, and made me recall all of the changes when I came back (my main was a DC, took some getting used to). In the notes it describes individual powers as having their damage reduced in divine mode.

And the tooltip is updated (since it mentions Empowerment) but the whole "strengthened by Divinity" is perhaps a bit outdated.

Anyway, @nekogaming#3268 perhaps take a peek at that old update thread, it might help explain some changes.

snip from those patch notes said:

Chains of Blazing Light: Mark a location with a holy rune for a short duration. When a foe steps on the mark chains of fiery light Immobilize them. Damage is no longer reduced for hitting additional targets. This Immobilize is halved on players.
Divine Chains of Blazing Light: Instantly marks a location, Immobilizing targets for 1 second and dealing a small amount of damage.
Empowered Chains of Blazing Light: When Chains of Blazing Light strikes a foe it consumes all stacks of Empowered Chains of Blazing Light to increase the immobilize duration is by 2 seconds per stack. Damage is increased by 10% per stack.
Daunting Light: After a brief delay, summon a powerful column of light that burns the targeted area.
Divine Daunting Light: Instantly strikes the targeted location at reduced damage.
Empowered Daunting Light: Daunting Light now consumes stacks of Empowered Daunting Light to increase the critical chance and severity of Daunting Light by 10% per stack.

Emphasis mine.

And so on. BTW these are outdated (like DL now does +33% damage per stack, but not more crit chance and severity... etc.

nekogaming · August 2017

> @dupeks said:
> Edit: in loldefense of the OP, the wiki (which we all know is 100% reliable source of truth for the game) does have some vague-sounding description: "While using Channel Divinity your Encounter powers are strengthened by Divinity and gain enhanced effects."
>
> Uhhh... going to go on a limb and say this page hasn't been updated since before DCs got their Empowerment mechanic update.
>
>
>
> Well... it's still up to date with the in-game tooltip XD Pressing Tab channels divine power, replacing your normal At-Wills with Punishing Light and Soothing Light.
> While using Channel Divinity your Encounter powers are strengthened by Divinity and gain enhanced effects.
>
> Encounters used in this way require 1 Divine Symbol worth of Divine Power and grant a stack of Empowered and you may only have 3 stacks of Empowered.
>
> Divinity is generated by casting your At Will powers.
>
> I also personally never recall any official statement on the matter either, but I had a long gap in playing which included the level cap increase and a couple reworks...
>
> Did a little searching:
> https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/547032/official-feedback-thread-devoted-cleric-changes/p1
>
> Fits my NW hiatus, and made me recall all of the changes when I came back (my main was a DC, took some getting used to). In the notes it describes individual powers as having their damage reduced in divine mode.
>
> And the tooltip is updated (since it mentions Empowerment) but the whole "strengthened by Divinity" is perhaps a bit outdated.
>
> Anyway, @nekogaming#3268 perhaps take a peek at that old update thread, it might help explain some changes.
> * Chains of Blazing Light: Mark a location with a holy rune for a short duration. When a foe steps on the mark chains of fiery light Immobilize them. Damage is no longer reduced for hitting additional targets. This Immobilize is halved on players.
>
> * Divine Chains of Blazing Light: Instantly marks a location, Immobilizing targets for 1 second and dealing a small amount of damage.
>
> * Empowered Chains of Blazing Light: When Chains of Blazing Light strikes a foe it consumes all stacks of Empowered Chains of Blazing Light to increase the immobilize duration is by 2 seconds per stack. Damage is increased by 10% per stack.
>
> * Daunting Light: After a brief delay, summon a powerful column of light that burns the targeted area.
>
> * Divine Daunting Light: Instantly strikes the targeted location at reduced damage.
>
> * Empowered Daunting Light: Daunting Light now consumes stacks of Empowered Daunting Light to increase the critical chance and severity of Daunting Light by 10% per stack.
>
>
>
>
> Emphasis mine.
>
> And so on. BTW these are outdated (like DL now does +33% damage per stack, but not more crit chance and severity... etc.
>
>

Still see zero info of why powers in divinity hit almost half as their non divinity counterparts except daunting light in this beyond old post which is not in current tool tip wording. I'm not saying they should hit harder than their non divinity versions but they should match up dps wise with their non divinity versions. Not some made up that's the way it's always been with zero info in the powers sheet or tool tip. Btw that post is closing in on almost 4 years. Btw Clerics were buffed like 4 or 5 updates ago. If divinity is supposed to be nerfed than, it belongs on a current tool tip, not a nearly 4 year old forum in the Pc section where console players won't see it.

nekogaming · August 2017

dupeks said:

beckylunatic said:

dupeks said:
Edit: in loldefense of the OP, the wiki (which we all know is 100% reliable source of truth for the game) does have some vague-sounding description: "While using Channel Divinity your Encounter powers are strengthened by Divinity and gain enhanced effects."
Uhhh... going to go on a limb and say this page hasn't been updated since before DCs got their Empowerment mechanic update.

Well... it's still up to date with the in-game tooltip XD
in-game tooltip said:
Pressing Tab channels divine power, replacing your normal At-Wills with Punishing Light and Soothing Light.
While using Channel Divinity your Encounter powers are strengthened by Divinity and gain enhanced effects.

Encounters used in this way require 1 Divine Symbol worth of Divine Power and grant a stack of Empowered and you may only have 3 stacks of Empowered.

Divinity is generated by casting your At Will powers.
~~I also personally never recall any official statement on the matter either, but I had a long gap in playing which included the level cap increase and a couple reworks...~~

Did a little searching:
https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/547032/official-feedback-thread-devoted-cleric-changes/p1

Fits my NW hiatus, and made me recall all of the changes when I came back (my main was a DC, took some getting used to). In the notes it describes individual powers as having their damage reduced in divine mode.

And the tooltip is updated (since it mentions Empowerment) but the whole "strengthened by Divinity" is perhaps a bit outdated.

Anyway, @nekogaming#3268 perhaps take a peek at that old update thread, it might help explain some changes.
snip from those patch notes said:

Chains of Blazing Light: Mark a location with a holy rune for a short duration. When a foe steps on the mark chains of fiery light Immobilize them. Damage is no longer reduced for hitting additional targets. This Immobilize is halved on players.
Divine Chains of Blazing Light: Instantly marks a location, Immobilizing targets for 1 second and dealing a small amount of damage.
Empowered Chains of Blazing Light: When Chains of Blazing Light strikes a foe it consumes all stacks of Empowered Chains of Blazing Light to increase the immobilize duration is by 2 seconds per stack. Damage is increased by 10% per stack.
Daunting Light: After a brief delay, summon a powerful column of light that burns the targeted area.
Divine Daunting Light: Instantly strikes the targeted location at reduced damage.
Empowered Daunting Light: Daunting Light now consumes stacks of Empowered Daunting Light to increase the critical chance and severity of Daunting Light by 10% per stack.
Emphasis mine.

And so on. BTW these are outdated (like DL now does +33% damage per stack, but not more crit chance and severity... etc.

</p>

I seen nothing in this post that says divinity powers hit less in this beyond ancient post that's almost 4 years old now except, Daunting Light which doesn't reflect today's tool tip. Clerics were buffed a few patches ago, if they nerfed divinity nearly 4 years ago it needs to be in current today's tool tip. Not buried in a nearly 4 year old post in the PC section where console players like myself will never see.

dupeks · August 2017

nekogaming#3268 said:

dupeks said:

beckylunatic said:

dupeks said:
Edit: in loldefense of the OP, the wiki (which we all know is 100% reliable source of truth for the game) does have some vague-sounding description: "While using Channel Divinity your Encounter powers are strengthened by Divinity and gain enhanced effects."
Uhhh... going to go on a limb and say this page hasn't been updated since before DCs got their Empowerment mechanic update.

Well... it's still up to date with the in-game tooltip XD
in-game tooltip said:
Pressing Tab channels divine power, replacing your normal At-Wills with Punishing Light and Soothing Light.
While using Channel Divinity your Encounter powers are strengthened by Divinity and gain enhanced effects.

Encounters used in this way require 1 Divine Symbol worth of Divine Power and grant a stack of Empowered and you may only have 3 stacks of Empowered.

Divinity is generated by casting your At Will powers.
~~I also personally never recall any official statement on the matter either, but I had a long gap in playing which included the level cap increase and a couple reworks...~~

Did a little searching:
https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/547032/official-feedback-thread-devoted-cleric-changes/p1

Fits my NW hiatus, and made me recall all of the changes when I came back (my main was a DC, took some getting used to). In the notes it describes individual powers as having their damage reduced in divine mode.

And the tooltip is updated (since it mentions Empowerment) but the whole "strengthened by Divinity" is perhaps a bit outdated.

Anyway, @nekogaming#3268 perhaps take a peek at that old update thread, it might help explain some changes.
snip from those patch notes said:

Chains of Blazing Light: Mark a location with a holy rune for a short duration. When a foe steps on the mark chains of fiery light Immobilize them. Damage is no longer reduced for hitting additional targets. This Immobilize is halved on players.
Divine Chains of Blazing Light: Instantly marks a location, Immobilizing targets for 1 second and dealing a small amount of damage.
Empowered Chains of Blazing Light: When Chains of Blazing Light strikes a foe it consumes all stacks of Empowered Chains of Blazing Light to increase the immobilize duration is by 2 seconds per stack. Damage is increased by 10% per stack.
Daunting Light: After a brief delay, summon a powerful column of light that burns the targeted area.
Divine Daunting Light: Instantly strikes the targeted location at reduced damage.
Empowered Daunting Light: Daunting Light now consumes stacks of Empowered Daunting Light to increase the critical chance and severity of Daunting Light by 10% per stack.
Emphasis mine.

And so on. BTW these are outdated (like DL now does +33% damage per stack, but not more crit chance and severity... etc.

</p>
I seen nothing in this post that says divinity powers hit less in this beyond ancient post that's almost 4 years old now except, Daunting Light which doesn't reflect today's tool tip. Clerics were buffed a few patches ago, if they nerfed divinity nearly 4 years ago it needs to be in current today's tool tip. Not buried in a nearly 4 year old post in the PC section where console players like myself will never see.

Tooltips are pretty atrociously bad in this game, yep.

Improved tooltips have been asked for since... forever, so I wouldn't hold my breath.

But you do make an interesting observation about tooltip damage mismatch. I won't have time to hop on preview until probably this weekend, but would be interested in seeing whether it's consistent with fixed damage weps.

nekogaming · August 2017

dupeks said:

nekogaming#3268 said:

dupeks said:

beckylunatic said:

dupeks said:
Edit: in loldefense of the OP, the wiki (which we all know is 100% reliable source of truth for the game) does have some vague-sounding description: "While using Channel Divinity your Encounter powers are strengthened by Divinity and gain enhanced effects."
Uhhh... going to go on a limb and say this page hasn't been updated since before DCs got their Empowerment mechanic update.

Well... it's still up to date with the in-game tooltip XD
in-game tooltip said:
Pressing Tab channels divine power, replacing your normal At-Wills with Punishing Light and Soothing Light.
While using Channel Divinity your Encounter powers are strengthened by Divinity and gain enhanced effects.

Encounters used in this way require 1 Divine Symbol worth of Divine Power and grant a stack of Empowered and you may only have 3 stacks of Empowered.

Divinity is generated by casting your At Will powers.
~~I also personally never recall any official statement on the matter either, but I had a long gap in playing which included the level cap increase and a couple reworks...~~

Did a little searching:
https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/547032/official-feedback-thread-devoted-cleric-changes/p1

Fits my NW hiatus, and made me recall all of the changes when I came back (my main was a DC, took some getting used to). In the notes it describes individual powers as having their damage reduced in divine mode.

And the tooltip is updated (since it mentions Empowerment) but the whole "strengthened by Divinity" is perhaps a bit outdated.

Anyway, @nekogaming#3268 perhaps take a peek at that old update thread, it might help explain some changes.
snip from those patch notes said:

Chains of Blazing Light: Mark a location with a holy rune for a short duration. When a foe steps on the mark chains of fiery light Immobilize them. Damage is no longer reduced for hitting additional targets. This Immobilize is halved on players.
Divine Chains of Blazing Light: Instantly marks a location, Immobilizing targets for 1 second and dealing a small amount of damage.
Empowered Chains of Blazing Light: When Chains of Blazing Light strikes a foe it consumes all stacks of Empowered Chains of Blazing Light to increase the immobilize duration is by 2 seconds per stack. Damage is increased by 10% per stack.
Daunting Light: After a brief delay, summon a powerful column of light that burns the targeted area.
Divine Daunting Light: Instantly strikes the targeted location at reduced damage.
Empowered Daunting Light: Daunting Light now consumes stacks of Empowered Daunting Light to increase the critical chance and severity of Daunting Light by 10% per stack.
Emphasis mine.

And so on. BTW these are outdated (like DL now does +33% damage per stack, but not more crit chance and severity... etc.

</p>
I seen nothing in this post that says divinity powers hit less in this beyond ancient post that's almost 4 years old now except, Daunting Light which doesn't reflect today's tool tip. Clerics were buffed a few patches ago, if they nerfed divinity nearly 4 years ago it needs to be in current today's tool tip. Not buried in a nearly 4 year old post in the PC section where console players like myself will never see.
Tooltips are pretty atrociously bad in this game, yep.

Improved tooltips have been asked for since... forever, so I wouldn't hold my breath.

But you do make an interesting observation about tooltip damage mismatch. I won't have time to hop on preview until probably this weekend, but would be interested in seeing whether it's consistent with fixed damage weps.

Like I said, I can in non divinity mode match the tool tip, but in divinity mode It's half what the tool tip says. You Seem Suspicious to me... In one of my old games there use to be developers and moderators log on non Developer accounts and miss lead or deny features that were broken. I state in a earlier post that in divinity all powers hit lower than the tool tip while not complaining at all about non divinity mode powers against the tool tip and then you mislead that tooltips are notoriously bad.

dupeks · August 2017

nekogaming#3268 said:

dupeks said:

nekogaming#3268 said:

dupeks said:

beckylunatic said:

dupeks said:
Edit: in loldefense of the OP, the wiki (which we all know is 100% reliable source of truth for the game) does have some vague-sounding description: "While using Channel Divinity your Encounter powers are strengthened by Divinity and gain enhanced effects."
Uhhh... going to go on a limb and say this page hasn't been updated since before DCs got their Empowerment mechanic update.

Well... it's still up to date with the in-game tooltip XD
in-game tooltip said:
Pressing Tab channels divine power, replacing your normal At-Wills with Punishing Light and Soothing Light.
While using Channel Divinity your Encounter powers are strengthened by Divinity and gain enhanced effects.

Encounters used in this way require 1 Divine Symbol worth of Divine Power and grant a stack of Empowered and you may only have 3 stacks of Empowered.

Divinity is generated by casting your At Will powers.
~~I also personally never recall any official statement on the matter either, but I had a long gap in playing which included the level cap increase and a couple reworks...~~

Did a little searching:
https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/547032/official-feedback-thread-devoted-cleric-changes/p1

Fits my NW hiatus, and made me recall all of the changes when I came back (my main was a DC, took some getting used to). In the notes it describes individual powers as having their damage reduced in divine mode.

And the tooltip is updated (since it mentions Empowerment) but the whole "strengthened by Divinity" is perhaps a bit outdated.

Anyway, @nekogaming#3268 perhaps take a peek at that old update thread, it might help explain some changes.
snip from those patch notes said:

Chains of Blazing Light: Mark a location with a holy rune for a short duration. When a foe steps on the mark chains of fiery light Immobilize them. Damage is no longer reduced for hitting additional targets. This Immobilize is halved on players.
Divine Chains of Blazing Light: Instantly marks a location, Immobilizing targets for 1 second and dealing a small amount of damage.
Empowered Chains of Blazing Light: When Chains of Blazing Light strikes a foe it consumes all stacks of Empowered Chains of Blazing Light to increase the immobilize duration is by 2 seconds per stack. Damage is increased by 10% per stack.
Daunting Light: After a brief delay, summon a powerful column of light that burns the targeted area.
Divine Daunting Light: Instantly strikes the targeted location at reduced damage.
Empowered Daunting Light: Daunting Light now consumes stacks of Empowered Daunting Light to increase the critical chance and severity of Daunting Light by 10% per stack.
Emphasis mine.

And so on. BTW these are outdated (like DL now does +33% damage per stack, but not more crit chance and severity... etc.

</p>
I seen nothing in this post that says divinity powers hit less in this beyond ancient post that's almost 4 years old now except, Daunting Light which doesn't reflect today's tool tip. Clerics were buffed a few patches ago, if they nerfed divinity nearly 4 years ago it needs to be in current today's tool tip. Not buried in a nearly 4 year old post in the PC section where console players like myself will never see.
Tooltips are pretty atrociously bad in this game, yep.

Improved tooltips have been asked for since... forever, so I wouldn't hold my breath.

But you do make an interesting observation about tooltip damage mismatch. I won't have time to hop on preview until probably this weekend, but would be interested in seeing whether it's consistent with fixed damage weps.
Like I said, I can in non divinity mode match the tool tip, but in divinity mode It's half what the tool tip says. You Seem Suspicious to me... In one of my old games there use to be developers and moderators log on non Developer accounts and miss lead or deny features that were broken. I state in a earlier post that in divinity all powers hit lower than the tool tip while not complaining at all about non divinity mode powers against the tool tip and then you mislead that tooltips are notoriously bad.

~~Lol I tested on live right after seeing the report and was seeing at most 10% lower myself. So your claim of 30-60% does not apply to me, hence my suspicion.~~

You provided no hard evidence, just kind of ambiguous claims. So some folks (me included) jumped in to see if it was just one of the common misunderstandings for a returning player.

Lol you accuse me of being a secret dev? Gave me a chuckle for sure

Either way, if you're interested in having this responded to by a dev I recommend filing a real bug report with evidence. Or not. Up to you

Edit: tested wrong on live (shame on me, shouldn't try to over-complicate experiments with too many variables), retested with proper setup on preview, see comment below

muminekm · August 2017

Now I will link to you @dupeks when I will have some complains since you're the (secret) ~~santa~~ dev xD
Just look for his activity. No company would be able to pay him for all his work - that's why he work for free lol.

But seriously speaking to bring an attention of real dev you will need at least provide screens with damage logs where you shown decreased damage (with fixed weapon hopefully etc). "No log, only fix" doesn't work unfortunately. The might explain what is missing in game tooltips anyway though.

dupeks · August 2017

So I did a little bit of testing with the fancy realistic testing conditions they gave us.

Naked DC in chult hitting against lvl 73 (70% DR) training totem. 3lvl difference between me and the dummy so the damage is penalized by a factor of 75%.

Daunting Light Tooltip 8743*.75=6557.25


[0:05] [Combat (Self)] Your Daunting Light deals 1967 (6558) Radiant Damage to Target Dummy.

Divine Daunting Light Tooltip 4371*.75=3278.25


[1:06] [Combat (Self)] Your Daunting Light deals 984 (3279) Radiant Damage to Target Dummy.
[1:06] [Combat (Self)] Your Daunting Light deals 984 (3279) Radiant Damage to Target Dummy.
[1:06] [Combat (Self)] Your Daunting Light deals 984 (3279) Radiant Damage to Target Dummy.

Empowered Daunting Light Tooltip 17400*.75=13050


[1:07] [Combat (Self)] Your Daunting Light deals 3915 (13050) Radiant Damage to Target Dummy.

And 17400/8743=1.99016355942 ~ 3 * 33% as you would expect from the empowered description.

I did test chains too, normal chains works normally:

Chains Tooltip: 5829*.75=4371.75


[0:08] [Combat (Self)] Your Chains of Blazing Light deals 1312 (4372) Radiant Damage to Target Dummy.

But the divine Chains tooltip is nonsense, it doesn't change value when you enter divine mode (as we might expect) and instead shows the empowered Chains value

Divine Chains Tooltip: 5829*.75=4371.75 but deals 2842 (65% of tooltip damage)


[0:08] [Combat (Self)] Your Chains of Blazing Light deals 853 (2842) Radiant Damage to Target Dummy.

Divine Chains Tooltip grows to 6703 (increase of 874 or ~ 15%)


[0:08] [Combat (Self)] Your Chains of Blazing Light deals 853 (2842) Radiant Damage to Target Dummy.

Divine Chains Tooltip grows to 7577 (increase of 874)


[0:08] [Combat (Self)] Your Chains of Blazing Light deals 853 (2842) Radiant Damage to Target Dummy.

Divine Chains Tooltip grows to 8452 (increase of 875)

Empowered Chains Tooltip 8452*.75=6339


[0:52] [Combat (Self)] Your Chains of Blazing Light deals 1902 (6339) Radiant Damage to Target Dummy.

So the DL tooltip is working correctly, the normal and empowered Chains tooltips too.

Divine Chains hits for 65% of the normal Chains tooltip, and the divine tooltip starts off the same as the normal tooltip but grows by 15% up to 3 times (that's because of the empower mechanic... which doesn't work with Divine Chains, but does with Empowered Chains)

So umm yeah that's what I meant when I said tooltips are unreliable? Is the power working as intended? Is the power bugged? Is the tooltip bugged? All great questions... Trick question this game is bugged XD

And hey there's definitely a bug in there we should report... might get to it tomorrow getting late

Is there a power in particular that you're concerned for? I tested those 2 because they are fairly common damage spells.

armadeonx · August 2017

Lol dupeks a secret staff member

the paranoia you sometimes see on this forum is amusing.

Neko, on PC players have an extra tool called ACT which creates a log report of every hit and its output. Players use this to test things (obviously) and is the easiest way of verifying/comparing the strength of one power against another.

Those of us on consoles either have to ask a PC player to test something or rely on logs - what you can do to support your position is unsummon your companion, switch chat channel to LOG and strike a test dummy with normal Chains or Daunting Light. Screenshot the result. Now do the same with the Divinity version. Repeat this a couple of times to account for things like random boon procs, then post the results here as that will give a truer picture of the situation without the conspiracy theories.

nekogaming · August 2017

armadeonx said:
Lol dupeks a secret staff member the paranoia you sometimes see on this forum is amusing.

Neko, on PC players have an extra tool called ACT which creates a log report of every hit and its output. Players use this to test things (obviously) and is the easiest way of verifying/comparing the strength of one power against another.

Those of us on consoles either have to ask a PC player to test something or rely on logs - what you can do to support your position is unsummon your companion, switch chat channel to LOG and strike a test dummy with normal Chains or Daunting Light. Screenshot the result. Now do the same with the Divinity version. Repeat this a couple of times to account for things like random boon procs, then post the results here as that will give a truer picture of the situation without the conspiracy theories.

Actually Console players have a combat log you can even make a whole log dedicated to it if you want like I did. The only difference is they can copy and paste their logs where I have to painfully write them down and head to a computer and type it and they test it on a patch our consoles don't have

nekogaming · August 2017

dupeks said:
So I did a little bit of testing with the fancy realistic testing conditions they gave us.

Naked DC in chult hitting against lvl 73 (70% DR) training totem. 3lvl difference between me and the dummy so the damage is penalized by a factor of 75%.

Daunting Light Tooltip 8743*.75=6557.25[0:05] [Combat (Self)] Your Daunting Light deals 1967 (6558) Radiant Damage to Target Dummy.

Divine Daunting Light Tooltip 4371*.75=3278.25[1:06] [Combat (Self)] Your Daunting Light deals 984 (3279) Radiant Damage to Target Dummy. [1:06] [Combat (Self)] Your Daunting Light deals 984 (3279) Radiant Damage to Target Dummy. [1:06] [Combat (Self)] Your Daunting Light deals 984 (3279) Radiant Damage to Target Dummy.

Empowered Daunting Light Tooltip 17400*.75=13050[1:07] [Combat (Self)] Your Daunting Light deals 3915 (13050) Radiant Damage to Target Dummy.

And 17400/8743=1.99016355942 ~ 3 * 33% as you would expect from the empowered description.

I did test chains too, normal chains works normally:

Chains Tooltip: 5829*.75=4371.75[0:08] [Combat (Self)] Your Chains of Blazing Light deals 1312 (4372) Radiant Damage to Target Dummy.

But the divine Chains tooltip is nonsense, it doesn't change value when you enter divine mode (as we might expect) and instead shows the empowered Chains value

Divine Chains Tooltip: 5829*.75=4371.75 but deals 2842 (65% of tooltip damage)[0:08] [Combat (Self)] Your Chains of Blazing Light deals 853 (2842) Radiant Damage to Target Dummy.
Divine Chains Tooltip grows to 6703 (increase of 874 or ~ 15%)[0:08] [Combat (Self)] Your Chains of Blazing Light deals 853 (2842) Radiant Damage to Target Dummy.
Divine Chains Tooltip grows to 7577 (increase of 874)[0:08] [Combat (Self)] Your Chains of Blazing Light deals 853 (2842) Radiant Damage to Target Dummy.
Divine Chains Tooltip grows to 8452 (increase of 875)

Empowered Chains Tooltip 8452*.75=6339[0:52] [Combat (Self)] Your Chains of Blazing Light deals 1902 (6339) Radiant Damage to Target Dummy.

So the DL tooltip is working correctly, the normal and empowered Chains tooltips too.

Divine Chains hits for 65% of the normal Chains tooltip, and the divine tooltip starts off the same as the normal tooltip but grows by 15% up to 3 times (that's because of the empower mechanic... which doesn't work with Divine Chains, but does with Empowered Chains)

So umm yeah that's what I meant when I said tooltips are unreliable? Is the power working as intended? Is the power bugged? Is the tooltip bugged? All great questions... Trick question this game is bugged XD

And hey there's definitely a bug in there we should report... might get to it tomorrow getting late

Is there a power in particular that you're concerned for? I tested those 2 because they are fairly common damage spells.

Dc Against a lvl 72 Target Dummy with no pet, boons, overloads, or procable gear with intermissions to wait for divine glow bonus to fall off every time (Armor Pen 72.9%) All powers do not have a separate tool tip on console for divinity says the same number in and out of divinity

Divine glow tool tip 7,416-8923 actual hits 9,187, 9,586, 9446
Divinity Divine glow actual hits 6,404 5,803, 5665, 5709, 5,480

Chains of light a Blazing tool tip 14,832-17,846 actual hit 15,648, 16,492, 15443
Divinity actual hit 10,609, 11,448, 11,307, 11,700

Against a lvl 9 target dummy in protectors enclave pvp room

Divine Glow tool tip 7,416-8,923 actual hit 9,505, 9,691, 9.047
Divinity actual hit 5,730, 6,122, 6,430, 6404

Chains: impossible to test in protectors enclave pvp room or guild because idk, it broke like 4 or 5 console patches ago and it was just too minor of a annoyance to complain about to have them try to fix

This all the testing I'll do. This took like 50 minutes because I had to make sure constantly that I wasn't empowered, the divine glow buff would fall off of me and the debuff off the target dummy, and nobody was near me at all times, plus if i crited i would have to wait another 10 second cool down. Plus I can't copy paste, I have to write all these down and head to my computer. For some reason non divinity divine glow would hit slightly higher than the tool tip even with 5% buff fallen off but it no where near makes up for how bad it hits in divinity. I've done this test several different times and gotten very similar results.

dupeks · August 2017

nekogaming#3268 said:

dupeks said:
So I did a little bit of testing with the fancy realistic testing conditions they gave us.

Naked DC in chult hitting against lvl 73 (70% DR) training totem. 3lvl difference between me and the dummy so the damage is penalized by a factor of 75%.

Daunting Light Tooltip 8743*.75=6557.25[0:05] [Combat (Self)] Your Daunting Light deals 1967 (6558) Radiant Damage to Target Dummy.

Divine Daunting Light Tooltip 4371*.75=3278.25[1:06] [Combat (Self)] Your Daunting Light deals 984 (3279) Radiant Damage to Target Dummy. [1:06] [Combat (Self)] Your Daunting Light deals 984 (3279) Radiant Damage to Target Dummy. [1:06] [Combat (Self)] Your Daunting Light deals 984 (3279) Radiant Damage to Target Dummy.

Empowered Daunting Light Tooltip 17400*.75=13050[1:07] [Combat (Self)] Your Daunting Light deals 3915 (13050) Radiant Damage to Target Dummy.

And 17400/8743=1.99016355942 ~ 3 * 33% as you would expect from the empowered description.

I did test chains too, normal chains works normally:

Chains Tooltip: 5829*.75=4371.75[0:08] [Combat (Self)] Your Chains of Blazing Light deals 1312 (4372) Radiant Damage to Target Dummy.

But the divine Chains tooltip is nonsense, it doesn't change value when you enter divine mode (as we might expect) and instead shows the empowered Chains value

Divine Chains Tooltip: 5829*.75=4371.75 but deals 2842 (65% of tooltip damage)[0:08] [Combat (Self)] Your Chains of Blazing Light deals 853 (2842) Radiant Damage to Target Dummy.
Divine Chains Tooltip grows to 6703 (increase of 874 or ~ 15%)[0:08] [Combat (Self)] Your Chains of Blazing Light deals 853 (2842) Radiant Damage to Target Dummy.
Divine Chains Tooltip grows to 7577 (increase of 874)[0:08] [Combat (Self)] Your Chains of Blazing Light deals 853 (2842) Radiant Damage to Target Dummy.
Divine Chains Tooltip grows to 8452 (increase of 875)

Empowered Chains Tooltip 8452*.75=6339[0:52] [Combat (Self)] Your Chains of Blazing Light deals 1902 (6339) Radiant Damage to Target Dummy.

So the DL tooltip is working correctly, the normal and empowered Chains tooltips too.

Divine Chains hits for 65% of the normal Chains tooltip, and the divine tooltip starts off the same as the normal tooltip but grows by 15% up to 3 times (that's because of the empower mechanic... which doesn't work with Divine Chains, but does with Empowered Chains)

So umm yeah that's what I meant when I said tooltips are unreliable? Is the power working as intended? Is the power bugged? Is the tooltip bugged? All great questions... Trick question this game is bugged XD

And hey there's definitely a bug in there we should report... might get to it tomorrow getting late

Is there a power in particular that you're concerned for? I tested those 2 because they are fairly common damage spells.
Dc Against a lvl 72 Target Dummy with no pet, boons, overloads, or procable gear with intermissions to wait for divine glow bonus to fall off every time (Armor Pen 72.9%) All powers do not have a separate tool tip on console for divinity says the same number in and out of divinity

Divine glow tool tip 7,416-8923 actual hits 9,187, 9,586, 9446
Divinity Divine glow actual hits 6,404 5,803, 5665, 5709, 5,480

Chains of light a Blazing tool tip 14,832-17,846 actual hit 15,648, 16,492, 15443
Divinity actual hit 10,609, 11,448, 11,307, 11,700

Against a lvl 9 target dummy in protectors enclave pvp room

Divine Glow tool tip 7,416-8,923 actual hit 9,505, 9,691, 9.047
Divinity actual hit 5,730, 6,122, 6,430, 6404

Chains: impossible to test in protectors enclave pvp room or guild because idk, it broke like 4 or 5 console patches ago and it was just too minor of a annoyance to complain about to have them try to fix

This all the testing I'll do. This took like 50 minutes because I had to make sure constantly that I wasn't empowered, the divine glow buff would fall off of me and the debuff off the target dummy, and nobody was near me at all times, plus if i crited i would have to wait another 10 second cool down. Plus I can't copy paste, I have to write all these down and head to my computer. For some reason non divinity divine glow would hit slightly higher than the tool tip even with 5% buff fallen off but it no where near makes up for how bad it hits in divinity. I've done this test several different times and gotten very similar results.

OK sounds like I've got some Divine Glow testing to do.

FYI I'm moving this weekend (whee) so it may or may not happen. I will eventually follow up though with fixed damage weapons to see if we can get to the bottom of this

armadeonx · August 2017

Cool, ok so your DG with an average of 9.4k (normal) and 5.66k (divine) means that the divine version is outputting 60.2% of the normal (call it 60%)

Your Chains showed an average of 15.8 (normal) and 11.2k (divine) so the divine here is 70.9% (call it 70%). It's interesting that Dupeks test only did 65% comparative damage.

It would be good if you could test Daunting Light and Dupeks has said he's going to check DG as the only power you both check was Chains.

It's also possible that with the recent increase in dps for most DC encounters, that the devs missed one or two of the Divinity versions for the update - this kind of testing is the info that'll spot such oversights and can be presented to them as evidence for a fix.

nekogaming · August 2017

> @armadeonx said:
> Cool, ok so your DG with an average of 9.4k (normal) and 5.66k (divine) means that the divine version is outputting 60.2% of the normal (call it 60%)
>
> Your Chains showed an average of 15.8 (normal) and 11.2k (divine) so the divine here is 70.9% (call it 70%). It's interesting that Dupeks test only did 65% comparative damage.
>
> It would be good if you could test Daunting Light and Dupeks has said he's going to check DG as the only power you both check was Chains.
>
> It's also possible that with the recent increase in dps for most DC encounters, that the devs missed one or two of the Divinity versions for the update - this kind of testing is the info that'll spot such oversights and can be presented to them as evidence for a fix.

I'll think about testing daunting light. I already know the divinity version does hit less because this is my 3rd hour-ish long test in the last month in a half and it's hell to test on console then write down and retype on a computer. Plus Beyond thorough doesn't help.

armadeonx · August 2017

I know what you mean, I'm on XBox and I'll only test things when I have no choice

nekogaming · August 2017

I kinda wonder how many post and people testing does it take to get a developers attention. Do I need 10 plus people testing, followed by tons of people who don't test but notice the injustice raging to the point they can't sweep it under the rug?

michela123 · August 2017

These were DL and CoBL tooltips after the DC rework in module 5, from NW.35.20141104a.7 patch notes:
• Chains of Blazing Light (Divine): Instantly marks a location, immobilizing targets for 1 second and dealing a small amount of damage.
• Daunting Light (Divine): Instantly strikes the targeted location at reduced damage.

nekogaming · August 2017

> @michela123 said:
> These were DL and CoBL tooltips after the DC rework in module 5, from NW.35.20141104a.7 patch notes:
> • Chains of Blazing Light (Divine): Instantly marks a location, immobilizing targets for 1 second and dealing a small amount of damage.
> • Daunting Light (Divine): Instantly strikes the targeted location at reduced damage.

If it's not on current tool tip it's not relevant. The game came to console a little over a year ago, and I've played a Cleric following all patch notes since then. So far in the year + they've done alot of patching broken features of the cleric trying to get them to work right in that year and buffing their damage multiple times, but it took people endlessly complaining until they almost felt like giving up, before anything got fixed. Good to know pc players still try to quote 4 to 5 year old content like it's a current feature. It's really funny that really old Pc players basically unacknowledge anything could be wrong with specific characters. They don't build on a list of hidden class features that you have to track back years to find the truth, they rework characters and features then add it to the powers tool tip.

zephyriah · August 2017

nekogaming#3268 said:
> @michela123 said:

> These were DL and CoBL tooltips after the DC rework in module 5, from NW.35.20141104a.7 patch notes:

> • Chains of Blazing Light (Divine): Instantly marks a location, immobilizing targets for 1 second and dealing a small amount of damage.

> • Daunting Light (Divine): Instantly strikes the targeted location at reduced damage.

They don't build on a list of hidden class features that you have to track back years to find the truth, they rework characters and features then add it to the powers tool tip.

This is what people were trying to explain to you when you jumped on them as shills. Cryptic does not do a good job of this, so as stated earlier, tooltips are notoriously wrong in many cases.

Although the action observed should match the tooltip, the action not matching the tooltip does not mean the power is not working as intended. The only way to find out if the power is WAI or not, is to review the past patch notes for changes to the skill and match the observed action to the reported changes.

You don't like that they do not update the tooltip, I don't like the failure to update them, most players don't like this, but until they fix them, this what what we have to do. You should be thanking the PC players for their research and explanation and not deride them.

armadeonx · August 2017

Neko, is it possible for you to communicate with people without putting them down? I mean literally anyone who tells you anything you don't like.

In fact I'm expecting you to rant at me for saying this too lol...

ravenskya · August 2017

nekogaming#3268 said:

If it's not on current tool tip it's not relevant. The game came to console a little over a year ago, and I've played a Cleric following all patch notes since then. So far in the year + they've done alot of patching broken features of the cleric trying to get them to work right in that year and buffing their damage multiple times, but it took people endlessly complaining until they almost felt like giving up, before anything got fixed. Good to know pc players still try to quote 4 to 5 year old content like it's a current feature. It's really funny that really old Pc players basically unacknowledge anything could be wrong with specific characters. They don't build on a list of hidden class features that you have to track back years to find the truth, they rework characters and features then add it to the powers tool tip.

Kinda curious why all the PC player hate here... they came here to help you.

Tooltips don't match the skills - most of us know that. I'm on PS4 and I know this. Like I know I had to put points in one power to actually use a different power on my pally. Things like "does X % of your total hitpoints as damage" doesn't mean MY hitpoints - it means whoever's using it through me via my aura. Cryptic words tooltips like they went through google translator via 5 different languages before hitting send.

And I don't see the PC players saying it couldn't be broken - they seemed to be agreeing with you that either the tooltip is incorrect (which is generally the case) or it is in fact broken.

Have you noticed the number of updates where it says "corrected tooltip?" Yeah... generally that means it's been wrong for in excess of a year before they get around to fixing that

dupeks · August 2017

nekogaming#3268 said:
I kinda wonder how many post and people testing does it take to get a developers attention. Do I need 10 plus people testing, followed by tons of people who don't test but notice the injustice raging to the point they can't sweep it under the rug?

I think that your expectations for how the game development / bug fix cycle should operate are pretty far removed from what goes on in reality.

It's fine to have expectations, and it's even fine to be mad when your expectations are not met. But to be frank, whether or not bugs get fixed depends on a lot of things (and how many people are reporting it on the forums is a very small factor).

One of the blogs had a pretty interesting thread about prioritization. Might help to provide you with some context:

https://www.arcgames.com/en/games/neverwinter/news/detail/10470163-production-dev-blog:-feedback-prioritization

And I haven't gotten to testing yet since my gaming machine is boxed up following my move this past weekend. I'll try to get some fixed damage numbers for DG this coming weekend

nekogaming · August 2017

Look guys the reason why I'm getting so mad is everything re typed back to me is a mostly a immediate discredit followed by a really old post or someone saying again tool tips are really inaccurate again. When someone quotes really old content to me, it makes me face Palm because it's basically saying ignore the currently written powers and feats because the developers got this secret puzzle that you have to go through 5 years of forums to piece together. Characters are re worked, that's why the tool tips and feats get rewritten. So when something that doesn't match the games own wording and off so much it can't be written off as margin of error, and you can repeat the problem over and over consistently that should be considered the game not working as intended. I.e bug.

dupeks · August 2017

nekogaming#3268 said:
Look guys the reason why I'm getting so mad is everything re typed back to me is a mostly a immediate discredit followed by a really old post or someone saying again tool tips are really inaccurate again. When someone quotes really old content to me, it makes me face Palm because it's basically saying ignore the currently written powers and feats because the developers got this secret puzzle that you have to go through 5 years of forums to piece together. Characters are re worked, that's why the tool tips and feats get rewritten. So when something that doesn't match the games own wording and off so much it can't be written off as margin of error, and you can repeat the problem over and over consistently that should be considered the game not working as intended. I.e bug.

OK then, let me give you some concrete feedback that is most likely to get your concerns noted by the devs:

Document which exact powers are under-performing vs. the tooltips. The work you did on DG and Chains is a great start.

Create a new thread, titled "DC Divine Powers That Deal Less Damage Than Tooltip Values" in the bug reports section, and try to use as few words as possible to list out which powers are not working, with 2-3 example hits per power like you did above.

In my opinion, this thread has too much text and discussion to get reliably noticed and communicated to the devs as a bug report. (Please note I'm not saying that I like it being this way, just my observation based on what it takes to get bugs noticed, added to queue, and finally worked on).

Finally, prepare yourself that the earliest this will get addressed is Mod 13B. In all likelihood, the devs are nearly done with Mod 12B, and are already well into Mod13 design. Since tooltip bugs are generally not considered game-breaking, the next opportunity for them to be addressed would be with the the next "B" QoL release.

michela123 · August 2017

Every single encounter power in divinity mode have dealt less damage than its normal version since the rework in mod 5, except BtS and FF because in divinity they deal instant damage (but the total damage is still less). This was mentioned in CoBL and DL tooltips, but implicit in other powers since it was stated in the patch notes. Nor the tooltips say anywhere that they have no cooldown, faster cast speed, and they generate no AP.
Since then, there have been no patch notes mentioning they intended to change it. You are assuming that when they simplified DL and CoBL divinity tooltips they intended to raise their damage without communicating it to anyone, but at the same time they failed at it.

dupeks · August 2017

michela123 said:
Every single encounter power in divinity mode have dealt less damage than its normal version since the rework in mod 5, except BtS and FF because in divinity they deal instant damage (but the total damage is still less). This was mentioned in CoBL and DL tooltips, but implicit in other powers since it was stated in the patch notes. Nor the tooltips say anywhere that they have no cooldown, faster cast speed, and they generate no AP.
Since then, there have been no patch notes mentioning they intended to change it. You are assuming that when they simplified DL and CoBL divinity tooltips they intended to raise their damage without communicating it to anyone, but at the same time they failed at it.

I think OP is mostly upset that the tooltips are inaccurate, and that the reaction here was kind of muted... people don't really expect tooltips to be accurate in this game, and have kind of accepted it and moved on from rage to quiet sadness that tooltip updates are not going to be a priority any time soon.

DC divine power tooltips are such a small part of the problem though, and honestly can be relatively well-understood using other means (like patch notes and asking for info on forums). There are far more egregious problems out there, with far more detrimental effects, that also hang around way too long before being addressed.

I guess it is a little sad that expectations for so many have sunk so low...

The Clerics Have Been Broken This Whole Time!

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