Implement solo queue now please - premades are still an unfair problem

nezdin

The changes already made to PvP and upcoming ones sound promising; the private queue that so many have been asking for for ages has finally arrived and it can be lots of fun.

But this is a snapshot of what is happening in the "usual" queue nowadays, in spite of the existence of private queues: premades are all over the place! I frequently see players that have advocated for the private queue as the panacea and salvation of pvp for so long run in premades. They team in premades and engage in the stomping they used to say was only normal because they did not have their own private queue.

If needed, remove rewards from solo queue and transfer them to private queue. If your concern is that guilds will rig matches to farm the AD just consider that now overpowered premade teams are doing just that at the expense of others who do not queue in premades. Stomping or rigging a match has exactly the same result. The only difference is that with rigging, both sides will get their rewards.

The solo queue is not only a big improvement in theory, but now you have ample empirical evidence of the satisfaction is provides; the community has spoken:

https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1229412/should-pvp-solo-queue-be-made-permanent/p1

https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1225097/make-the-solo-pvp-queue-permanent/p1


Please implement solo Q permanently with the imperfect algorithm you have; and then you can work on the randomisation mechanism to prevent queue syncing. If not, then could you please provide us with an explanation as to why it has not been done yet or when you plan to implement this? Thank you.


@rgutscheradev
@nitocris83

Mod Note: Removed all-caps from subject title.

ltgamesttv

nezdin#5514 said:

The changes already made to PvP and upcoming ones sound promising; the private queue that so many have been asking for for ages has finally arrived and it can be lots of fun.

But this is a snapshot of what is happening in the "usual" queue nowadays, in spite of the existence of private queues: premades are all over the place! I frequently see players that have advocated for the private queue as the panacea and salvation of pvp for so long run in premades. They team in premades and engage in the stomping they used to say was only normal because they did not have their own private queue.

If needed, remove rewards from solo queue and transfer them to private queue. If your concern is that guilds will rig matches to farm the AD just consider that now overpowered premade teams are doing just that at the expense of others who do not queue in premades. Stomping or rigging a match has exactly the same result. The only difference is that with rigging, both sides will get their rewards.

Please implement solo Q permanently with the imperfect algorithm you have; and then you can work on the randomisation mechanism to prevent queue syncing. If not, then could you please provide us with an explanation as to why it has not been done yet or when you plan to implement this? Thank you.


@rgutscheradev
@nitocris83

Mod Note: Removed all-caps from subject title.

I think a solo Q would be a perfect addition to the existing options. Then you can Q as you like. Private Q, random group Q, or solo Q. Take your pick. I would like to see solo Q fixed so that it doesn't become kick to win however, because that is simply another way of abusing the system.

joeffrey

Yes please, make solo queue permanent. I played a lot of pvp this weekend just because of this event. The way it allocate players between teams is still problematic. Queueing at the same time with a guildie will almost put you together on the same team which is buffling. We are queueing as solo for the purpose of going against each other and not to wreak the other team as a premade. Matchmaking should not put a bias on grouping guild members together as it clearly states SOLO queue. But with all these issues and unbalanced team allocation, it is still way way WAY better than being destroyed by a premade who are not only better geared but also communicating on the party chat as well.
I just dont understand why the devs will not give us this request that have been raised by the community for quite such a long time now. And it is not asking for much. The feature is already there, just make it permanent. It is such a big difference maker in deciding to click that queue button knowing that what awaits you is total domination by a premade group versus a fair chance of a fight between random pug players.

kalina311

joeffrey#2557 said:

Yes please, make solo queue permanent. I played a lot of pvp this weekend just because of this event. The way it allocate players between teams is still problematic. Queueing at the same time with a guildie will almost put you together on the same team which is buffling. We are queueing as solo for the purpose of going against each other and not to wreak the other team as a premade. Matchmaking should not put a bias on grouping guild members together as it clearly states SOLO queue. But with all these issues and unbalanced team allocation, it is still way way WAY better than being destroyed by a premade who are not only better geared but also communicating on the party chat as well.
I just dont understand why the devs will not give us this request that have been raised by the community for quite such a long time now. And it is not asking for much. The feature is already there, just make it permanent. It is such a big difference maker in deciding to click that queue button knowing that what awaits you is total domination by a premade group versus a fair chance of a fight between random pug players.

So if your guildy is put on the opposite team then it becomes "fair" ? can the match not be thrown that way as well ?
if they chose to do nothing or not cap

the system can be gamed either way if guildies / people you know are on your team or the opposite team
and if they are not in your guild but still friend

I see problems either way trying to do match making by excluding and including people in your guild/ aliacen or friends list

and the thinking that somehow this makes it more/less fair..

if all these calculations were made the Q would never pop let alone try to balance classs on both teams ..

next thing you know players will say if the guy is on my ignore list he should not be on my team or on the opposite team or on no team very slippery slope

also then you have guilds and guild leaders / players that are cowards and implement rules that you are not allowed to attack guildies / alliance members in a match further messing up he matchmaking

everyone should be a valid target and I would like to see matches again where even the "BEST" players are forced to take a couple deaths per match ..how it might go in mod 12b

wulf

None of this will matter if they don't fix the gear issue. It's ludicrous to expect a person to hold a COMPLETELY separate set of gear in their inventory just to be mildly competitive in pvp. Pvp specific gear should be better than pve, but not to the point where a well geared pve player can't even move the hp bar of a player with pvp gear. I played 25 matches today in the solo q, and in not a single one of them did the losing team score above 100 points. That is idiotic to say the least.

nezdin

xsayajinx1 said:

If there is not enough players, I (or other premades) will team up with friends and queue for the public pvp. I see nothing wrong with that, everyone is free to play however he wants to play.

First, thank you for reiterating what I state in the original post i.e. that premades are still very present in the "usual" queue.

This thread is not telling anyone how to play or not play. If you choose to play in premades though, there are consequences for those who land in the opposite team (or even those landing randomly in yours). The now common feeling of hanging around until a dead match finishes, with no fun whatsoever is the price that premades impose on all those who land in that match not in a premade. The irony is that they impose the same costs on themselves too.

It is the purpose of this thread to remind and provide an update on the state of the "usual" queue in pvp (the one that is used by most players) to those who can actually make a difference, i.e. the devs. And also to dispel any potentially mistaken belief that the private queue has made premades less of a problem for casual players.

xsayajinx1 said:

A solo queue would help to get around this problem, but imo it's still unbalanced as hell because a single BiS toon can murder a whole team of newbies.

We are in agreement. But this is no excuse to not implement the solo queue. It is a BIG improvement on the status quo. Implement the existing algorithm and improve on that one. Improve on other features such as gear or other later. We all know by now the devs have limited time and resources so "step by step" is the name of the game.

kalina311

wulf#5119 said:

None of this will matter if they don't fix the gear issue. It's ludicrous to expect a person to hold a COMPLETELY separate set of gear in their inventory just to be mildly competitive in pvp. Pvp specific gear should be better than pve, but not to the point where a well geared pve player can't even move the hp bar of a player with pvp gear. I played 25 matches today in the solo q, and in not a single one of them did the losing team score above 100 points. That is idiotic to say the least.

updates in the preview forums would indicate that tenacity is being removed from gear
also crit is becoming relevant again in pvp ...and if you go in with your pve spec you crit is probably built high and there for you will be able to compete and do damage .....also include the fact that you can mutispec at the campfire anyways now


builds are waaay different in pve vs pve and even if you/they had the gear you will still see player get wrecked next mod and complain : D if they dont spec properly

armor pen needed in pve is now 85% rI so pve player also cant complain that they need to stack armor pen for pvp and its not needed in pve therefore making thier build at a disadvantage (old school of thought)

nezdin

tolkienbuff said:

nezdin#5514 said:

The changes already made to PvP and upcoming ones sound promising; the private queue that so many have been asking for for ages has finally arrived and it can be lots of fun.

But this is a snapshot of what is happening in the "usual" queue nowadays, in spite of the existence of private queues: premades are all over the place! I frequently see players that have advocated for the private queue as the panacea and salvation of pvp for so long run in premades. They team in premades and engage in the stomping they used to say was only normal because they did not have their own private queue.

If needed, remove rewards from solo queue and transfer them to private queue. If your concern is that guilds will rig matches to farm the AD just consider that now overpowered premade teams are doing just that at the expense of others who do not queue in premades. Stomping or rigging a match has exactly the same result. The only difference is that with rigging, both sides will get their rewards.

Please implement solo Q permanently with the imperfect algorithm you have; and then you can work on the randomisation mechanism to prevent queue syncing. If not, then could you please provide us with an explanation as to why it has not been done yet or when you plan to implement this? Thank you.


@rgutscheradev
@nitocris83

Mod Note: Removed all-caps from subject title.

I think a solo Q would be a perfect addition to the existing options. Then you can Q as you like. Private Q, random group Q, or solo Q. Take your pick. I would like to see solo Q fixed so that it doesn't become kick to win however, because that is simply another way of abusing the system.

That is also a very acceptable option. I do think that the "usual" queue option would fall out of favour eventually since most groups will likely get bored waiting for ages, but I see no harm keeping it as it is.

I do have mixed feelings on the kicking option. The first thing I would like changed funnily enough is that it does not pop up in the middle of the screen. I find it insanely frustrating when votekicking goes on just because the team has not got "powerful enough" players on it to win. That is not what I consider fair play. On the other hand, there is also nothing more frustrating than a player who decides to stay at camp during a match where we still have a chance at winning. I was also new to pvp once but stubborn enough to get down from camp and try to be useful to my team even though I could be one shot by players on the enemy team. Vote kicking allows to deal with those situations, and it is the only reason I will consider voting "yes" on.

nezdin

joeffrey#2557 said:

But with all these issues and unbalanced team allocation, it is still way way WAY better than being destroyed by a premade who are not only better geared but also communicating on the party chat as well.

Exactly, that pretty much sums up the opinion of the vast majority.

nezdin

@etelgrin: true, experience plays a huge role too. It is only through a "healthier" pvp environment where players less familiar with pvp will have the incentive to acquire that experience though, or think about what a pvp build even means. Statistical randomisation and solo queue is a first step that can help getting more people into pvp.

As for the other example, I am surprised that specifically they did that. Are you sure it was a kick though? It can be very difficult to determine if it is a kick or a quit (see my post below, for instance).

nezdin

@rgutscheradev
@nitocris83

Here I provide a concrete example of my experience tonight. This is what the state of pvp looks like very frequently. The red team is a premade + a pug. As you can see I was was the 11th member to join the blue team, in a clearly lopsided match, that was given up on.


http://imgur.com/a/rWlTg


NB: no one was kicked in this match. All quits (from lower and higher item level players) were voluntary.


So, please we would really appreciate an answer to the question of solo queue in an effort to reduce the likelihood of such events.

kalina311

.

wintersmoke

xsayajinx1 said:

Private Q will be used by premades when there is enough players to play with. And by "enough", I, personally mean 2x of each class to create mirror comps and balance the matches.



If there is not enough players, I (or other premades) will team up with friends and queue for the public pvp. I see nothing wrong with that, everyone is free to play however he wants to play.



A solo queue would help to get around this problem, but imo it's still unbalanced as hell because a single BiS toon can murder a whole team of newbies.

Ever since the idea of a solo-queue has been asked for, the response from the pre-made community has been "we don't need a solo-queue, we need a Private-Q! If we had a Private-Q we wouldn't need to stomp pugs anymore cuz we only wanna fight eachother!" I should not be surprised to see that, even before the Private-Q is even implemented... the idea is already being walked-back. I'm disappointed, but not really surprised

kalina311

@wintersmoke If there is no NCL and no rewards (so called premade players and community )asking for solo or private Q does not make it mutually exclusive that you cant Q for regular Q anymore ..and it does not make them hypocritical as you are trying to sensationalise here

also sometimes a guild will not agree to a set private match. and you have to catch them the cowards that they are in open regular Q dom
also no shard rewards (or glory for artifact feeders ) or anything for that matter in private Q

and also no leader board braggin rights in private Q *which apparently they fixed*

I love how you lump everybody together categorically with false logic / inflections / and false generalized quotes
a lot of these statements were also made by players when the PC population was much higher and it would have been much easier to find people to setup / sync these matches with

if they finally fix matchmaking then should these "premade people" be allowed in regular Q since they will be fighting people closer to thier skill level..the dev already said pvp does not read item level too

also some group will not do a private match if the 2 opposing team are not mirrored or evenly matched

the private Q was also to setup 1 v 1 2v 2 3 v3 scenarios and the dev directly said they added to for better testing purposes and better feedback

there is no one left to fight on Pc high end pvp (maybe 100-200 semi regular players) even if they chose to fight each other
and now semi mediocre teams are considered "premades" people complain about premades (on pc ) and the fact of the matter s there are very few left and if dozens of regular guild would Q at the same only 1 or 2 would be occupied with said premades .. where the other would be getting fair matches that where all the fake Bs in the forums about premades starts to unravel there are way more people that can form regular normal teams and if the did odds would be much higher that they would not face a premade

Also people tend to complain negatively more n the forums then about the positive experiences they have had in pvp

on another note at any given time the pvp instances can be searched to get an idea about peak time and what guilds / players are Qing people like to ignore this fact and still complain tho

and you can also see if said premade that you are trying to avoid is already in a match then you know to accept the pop
or not ... but people would rather complain about premades then using the tools the game already provides to avoid them

There are 2 new dedicated channels for setting up PvP in mod 12 on the Pc server

sundance777

I too thought the solo Q would be a great option to have all the time to let the less dedicated PvP players have some fun. But it seems the premade teams have found a way to still end up in the same match, maybe even on the same team and solo Q is ruined now as well. PvP is becoming less enjoyable ever day even though we are putting this much effort into class balance and all the other blah blah blah on this forum.

kalina311

sundance777 said:

I too thought the solo Q would be a great option to have all the time to let the less dedicated PvP players have some fun. But it seems the premade teams have found a way to still end up in the same match, maybe even on the same team and solo Q is ruined now as well. PvP is becoming less enjoyable ever day even though we are putting this much effort into class balance and all the other blah blah blah on this forum.

do you play on Pc??
ya with such low population levels they game will just throw anyone into the match regardless if they are you guild your friends list your enemy list etc you could have hundred s of people form the same alliance and potentially dozens of them Qing should they not be lumped together at all ?

there are not enough players in matching algorithm to exclude all these combos from happening asside form the fact that it cant stat more then 2 classes per team and some other rules as well

what if there are let say 20 matches going on at once or being formed odds are very good you get someone you know from your alliance or guild on the same or opposing team no mater what

If go or game or sync or not sync or what ever it will happen anyways (placement in match with people you know )

now imagine only 5 or 10 games are going on .. you will for sure get a guildy or someone you know in the match

and with such a low population when you kick a player
someone/ a guildy you know in Q waiting in the wings has a good chance of being put into your match
if they conspired to or not and like i said in othe rposts the match can still be sabotage if said player is put on the opposite team too


I wish I had a solution but i dont this a very circular problem that everyone thinks is a conspiracy .. (sometimes it is )
when actually its a matchmaking population problem

I personally think the amount of kick votes a player can do per day should be limited to 3 in pvp ..and maybe 5 votes that can second the motion on the kick so it is used more sparingly

also its not fun when you are the player just popped into a losing or wining match that is half done
THERE SHOULD BE AN OPTION IN THE Q TO SELECT DO NOT PLACE ME INTO A PVP OR PVE INSTANCE THAT IS IN PROGRESS i shall make a poll on this i think not that it fixes everything

wintersmoke

kalina311 said:

@wintersmoke If there is no NCL and no rewards (so called premade players and community )asking for solo or private Q does not make it mutually exclusive that you cant Q for regular Q anymore ..and it does not make them hypocritical as you are trying to sensationalise here

also sometimes a guild will not agree to a set private match. and you have to catch them the cowards that they are in open regular Q dom
also no shard rewards (or glory for artifact feeders ) or anything for that matter in private Q

and also no leader board braggin rights in private Q *which apparently they fixed*

I love how you lump everybody together categorically with false logic / inflections / and false generalized quotes
a lot of these statements were also made by players when the PC population was much higher and it would have been much easier to find people to setup / sync these matches with

if they finally fix matchmaking then should these "premade people" be allowed in regular Q since they will be fighting people closer to thier skill level..the dev already said pvp does not read item level too

also some group will not do a private match if the 2 opposing team are not mirrored or evenly matched

the private Q was also to setup 1 v 1 2v 2 3 v3 scenarios and the dev directly said they added to for better testing purposes and better feedback

there is no one left to fight on Pc high end pvp (maybe 100-200 semi regular players) even if they chose to fight each other
and now semi mediocre teams are considered "premades" people complain about premades (on pc ) and the fact of the matter s there are very few left and if dozens of regular guild would Q at the same only 1 or 2 would be occupied with said premades .. where the other would be getting fair matches that where all the fake Bs in the forums about premades starts to unravel there are way more people that can form regular normal teams and if the did odds would be much higher that they would not face a premade

Also people tend to complain negatively more n the forums then about the positive experiences they have had in pvp

on another note at any given time the pvp instances can be searched to get an idea about peak time and what guilds / players are Qing people like to ignore this fact and still complain tho

and you can also see if said premade that you are trying to avoid is already in a match then you know to accept the pop
or not ... but people would rather complain about premades then using the tools the game already provides to avoid them

There are 2 new dedicated channels for setting up PvP in mod 12 on the Pc server

Yes it does make them hypocritical, because they said we didn't need a solo queue because a Private Q would fix all the problems... and now they are getting what they wanted, and even before it comes out they reverse themselves & say they won't be using it. That is the definition of hypocritical.

I am not really surprised that some guilds will not participate in private matches. The PUG players have always known that, while some pre-mades really do want to fight even matches, there are some players that only want to PUG-stomp. That much was obvious when there was so much push-back around the idea of a solo-queue. By the way... you DO know that no-one owes you a fight, right? You can insult people all you want, that doesn't mean they have to fight you. Although, If you really want to fight someone... insulting them is probably not the best way to go about getting them to do what you want. You could try having a 3rd party negotiate with them, just an idea.

Also, the players that pushed, and I mean they put in the hard sell, for Private Q said that they didn't need any rewards, all they wanted was to be able to play with their friends. If they got that, they said, they would be happy. So, it shouldn't really be a major deterrent to Private Q use, should it? Except now they are not happy & they have to have their cake & eat it too.

Personally, I have never even looked at the leaderboards. I would never have made it more than half-way up, even when I was able to play, & enjoy PvP. That has been broken pretty much since I have been playing. Well past time it was fixed. Still, I agree to not have any way of tracking your progress in any part of the game is wrong. So, if you start a thread on this topic, I'll give you an up-vote.

The "generalized quotes" are a part of my writing style. I use it to separate my ideas from the ideas of others. Unfortunately, my internet time is limited & I rarely have time to sort thru the last 6 months worth of posts to find the exact link I am referencing. I'm sorry if it bothers you. I DO find it interesting that you call my comments "false quotes" , and then go on to say that these statements were made about a time that the was in a different situation. Apparently I'm not the only person that saw these posts

No-one ever said pre-made players shouldn't be allowed to use the "normal" queue. The only statement I personally have made saying that anyone should not be allowed to queue in any fashion that they wanted to, was that pre-made players that wanted to queue for solo-queue should have to queue SOLO. Any attempt to end-run that system is pathetic & sad, but other than that, you do you, Boo! My objection is that that solo-queue, which is favored by PUG players, is still a part-time event, while the Private-Q advocated for by, mostly, pre-mades is becoming a permanent part of the game... & before it even makes it live, we are already hearing that it will not change anything, because it will be used for it's convenience & then discarded the moment it becomes an impediment. I think that one of the reasons Private-Q was given priority is because the pre-mades said "It will fix PvP!" and now that is far from certain. If that is the way this plays out... what will change?

Of course, if they fixed the matchmaking system... we wouldn't need a Private-Q. Or a solo-queue. Anyone that wanted to PvP could queue & get a fair/balanced (as fair and balanced as possible, given the current state of the game anyway) match. The only players that would lose out would be the "troll-made" players that are not really looking for a fair fight. That would be the best possible outcome. That probably was never going to happen. As many players have pointed out... the population is too low. There would be no quick fix. All the work needed to put something like that together & then there would be no results to point at, until word of mouth dragged people back to PvP. The best thing the devs could do for now would be to simply turn back on the old (admittedly broken) matchmaking software that we already have in place. It wouldn't fix all the problems, but it would help some. & the wait times could hardly get any worse.

The low population problem is not a "game" problem. There are 15 million players across platforms. I have never logged into the game & seen less than 40 instances of protector's enclave . Most of these are maxed out with 25 players each. The population problem is a "PvP" problem. None of those 1000 players want to PvP. Mostly because they "dipped a toe in", tried PvP once or twice, got stomped, & said "HAMSTER this!" & now, even tho Private Q is going to be a thing.... there is nothing to prevent that exact hing from happening in the future. Having players that have no interest in PvP form their own pre-mades for their own PUG stomping parties would do nothing to fix this. A new solution is needed. I have no idea what that might be. Letting pre-mades have the best of both words... Private-Q for guild matches, & normal queue for PUG-stomping matches, in my opinion, will not help. At all.

People spend more time complaining about PvP on the forums, because they spend more time having bad PvP matches than they spend having good PvP matches. Normal queue sucks & it has for several mods. Even the pre-made players are complaining about it. solo=queue only happens one weekend at a time, & by all reports it is being ruined by some players trying to game the system. Why would players come & post about the good matches they had ( as they DID do after the first couple of solo-queue events) when that is not the experience they are having?

I am familiar with searching the PvP zones (mostly when I keep bumping into the same pre-mades over & over again) unfortunately, it seems that my time online happens in one of the "dead zones". There are rarely more than 2 - 3 matches going on when I am playing.

I am interested to hear about player channels for PvP ... this is the first I have heard anything about it. Are they invite only?

andre

You know there are more than 2 premades out here, right? You talk like there are only a select few good pvpers in premades. Lol. Keep mentioning oh how "premades got their private q and don't want to use it." Anyone is considered a pre against lower gears and I know not a lot said it would help nor that many that pushed

I get where you're trying to come from but expecting this to fix it should've been clear that it wouldn't....I agree with those wanting the solo q tho it'll make people feel better for now.

nezdin

sundance777 said:

I too thought the solo Q would be a great option to have all the time to let the less dedicated PvP players have some fun. But it seems the premade teams have found a way to still end up in the same match, maybe even on the same team and solo Q is ruined now as well. PvP is becoming less enjoyable ever day even though we are putting this much effort into class balance and all the other blah blah blah on this forum.

Two ingredients are essential. One is patience since they have just started working on changes in pvp. I have often thought that I should go away and come back in a few modules to a hopefully better environment, and I may do so. The second is, among the diverging suggestions made to the devs about balancing, that the devs are capable of identifying the suggestions that truly look towards a balanced and more fun pvp for the whole community, rather than the suggestions that just serve the interests of the few. It is encouraging that some members of top pvp guilds have publicly expressed their will to forego some of the fruits they have worked towards, with effort, over the last few years (such as guild boons) in the name of balance. Whether the devs listen or not is a separate question.

kalina311

@wintersmoke @nezdin#5514 well written posts over all more comments comming...

I often Play devils advocate in the forums and can argue many perspective guys if you have not figured out that already

I consider it my job to provoke out different perspective and opinions lol :d

your post @wintersmoke I would consider at pvp hall of fame levels of writing

no ones believe that private Q would fix pvp that would be naive

just like it was not only "premade people" that advocated for solo Q

the Pc pvp heath/ population is a micorcosm of what to come the ps4 and xbox player base

the dev also said the private Q is a stable good testing ground for powers feedback / testing

just like when they added the base +1000 weapons on pve server to better help testing and feedback

they already said more maps are ready in the latest stream

I play a Cw And by no means can i control or force the win in any lopsided match so i know the fealing of frustration less geared people might feel

but also the feeling when people dont try and stand around and do nothing or stand on the node
that can also be attributed to no pvp tutorial no good rewards / unique items/ incentive /

also pvp builds / power selection being different and a combo of people being lazy and over powered for pve content but not pvp / also bad laggy internet // people not choosing to use voice (not sure if this is built in on ps4 and xbox making things even harder for the guildless /

no system in the game that universally translates basic pvp orders commands ( go to node 1/2/3 etc )and instructions to any supported games languages bound to keys ...lots of factors