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Diving into my full DPS GF, a few questions
dairyzeus
Member Posts: 304 Arc User
Recently moved all my stuff from my CW onto my GF to give this whole mad DPS GF thing a whirl. After a few days playing around, I'm loving it, but I've naturally gathered a few questions:
1. Is there any ways to up my aoe dps? I was running ITF, ET, and lunging strike for aoe, but found lunging strike to be cumbersome to use and even when I hit multiple targets with it, it still seemed lackluster.
I switched it out for knights challenge to put on the biggest enemy so he'll die around the same time as the trash, and that seems a bit better. Still though, overall I feel like I'm just hacking away with WMS for far too long. Sometime I even feel like I clear stuff faster using crushing surge to kill stuff one by one.
Am I doing something wrong? Is lunging strike actually really good for aoe and I'm bad at using it, or is it just that i'm used to being the undisputed king of AoE on my wizard and my damage is as good as it gets?
2. What crit chance am I aiming for? Obviously 100%, but do I rely on my capstone to help me out, and only go for ~90% without it? In trash clearing situations I can see that as viable, but I feel like in single target you just won't get hit enough?
3. If anvil of doom is the skill that drops an enemy below half health, does it still trigger the dot on anvil, or does the enemy need to be below half before I land the anvil?
4. What armor enchant do you recommend? I was thinking elven as I'm constantly getting knocked around because I try to avoid raising my shield as much as possible. I can also see negation being useful because I'll undoubtedly be a bit under the damage resist cap even at full build. I think I'm OK with this though as this character is designed for the end game speed farm groups where pallies and clerics and stuff like shepards devotion can fill out my damage resist for content that needs it. Remember, this character is designed as DPS first, tank second.
5. Insignia bonuses - I'm thinking camraderie, friendship, and guile for sure. Is artificier's worth it for me? I always felt it was pretty bad with the wheel (which I'll be using) as I typically pop wheel before power buffs get applied and you lose a second of uptime after popping the wheel getting into combat. I'm also not confident I'll be able to pull off assassin's and still live?
6. companions - Thinking con summoned, earth, air, siege, and fire? I really hate fire, but there's nothing better right? Since I'm running a vorpal I feel like crit severity companions are out.
Thanks in advance for any help.
1. Is there any ways to up my aoe dps? I was running ITF, ET, and lunging strike for aoe, but found lunging strike to be cumbersome to use and even when I hit multiple targets with it, it still seemed lackluster.
I switched it out for knights challenge to put on the biggest enemy so he'll die around the same time as the trash, and that seems a bit better. Still though, overall I feel like I'm just hacking away with WMS for far too long. Sometime I even feel like I clear stuff faster using crushing surge to kill stuff one by one.
Am I doing something wrong? Is lunging strike actually really good for aoe and I'm bad at using it, or is it just that i'm used to being the undisputed king of AoE on my wizard and my damage is as good as it gets?
2. What crit chance am I aiming for? Obviously 100%, but do I rely on my capstone to help me out, and only go for ~90% without it? In trash clearing situations I can see that as viable, but I feel like in single target you just won't get hit enough?
3. If anvil of doom is the skill that drops an enemy below half health, does it still trigger the dot on anvil, or does the enemy need to be below half before I land the anvil?
4. What armor enchant do you recommend? I was thinking elven as I'm constantly getting knocked around because I try to avoid raising my shield as much as possible. I can also see negation being useful because I'll undoubtedly be a bit under the damage resist cap even at full build. I think I'm OK with this though as this character is designed for the end game speed farm groups where pallies and clerics and stuff like shepards devotion can fill out my damage resist for content that needs it. Remember, this character is designed as DPS first, tank second.
5. Insignia bonuses - I'm thinking camraderie, friendship, and guile for sure. Is artificier's worth it for me? I always felt it was pretty bad with the wheel (which I'll be using) as I typically pop wheel before power buffs get applied and you lose a second of uptime after popping the wheel getting into combat. I'm also not confident I'll be able to pull off assassin's and still live?
6. companions - Thinking con summoned, earth, air, siege, and fire? I really hate fire, but there's nothing better right? Since I'm running a vorpal I feel like crit severity companions are out.
Thanks in advance for any help.
0
Comments
1. It's not you, DPS GF AoE damage is rather mediocre.
CWs can rekt mobs for obvious reasons, HRs have their Combat stuff/putting Thorned Roots on multiple targets, and GWF has their ludicrous weapon damage/damage bonuses and double swing speed. I know some of the better TRs out there can rekt mobs faster than my GF can.
DPS GF generally has middling performance on AoE fights because the DPS GF gets most of their damage bonuses from getting hit (and most mobs die within the blink of an eye, so you can't get hit by something that's dead) in addition to only dealing halved damage on Edit: retroactive derp mob fights (because KC practically doubles our damage, but we can only place KC on one target, and combined with KC being so slow versus how quick mobs die, and, well...).
The best I can suggest is getting a Lightning for an AoE loadout, but apart from that, the smarter CWs, HRs, and GWFs can destroy mobs much faster than a GF can.
Boss fights is where we shine the most.
2. Your preference, really. I know some might choose to sit at 80-90%ish and go for higher power, others choose to absolutely ensure 100% Crit regardless of capstone stacks, etc. I'm amongst the crowd who prefers 100% Crit, since an AC DC/OP/Templock will give you enough power that 4000-8000 extra is a drop in the bucket.
A large part of this question is how quick you can get and maintain your Reckless Attacker stacks. If you expect to not have many stacks, you might choose to stack more Crit, if you expect to be at max stacks nearly 24/7, then you can choose to stack less Crit. Either way, you're going to be somewhat Crit challenged.
If you're obsessing about every last little % of Crit, I'd personally sit at 83-90% Crit (without capstone stacks and with Bondings), then fill your last bit of Crit with potions and buffs.
3. In order to get the DoT hit, your enemy needs to be at half health before you apply the initial Anvil hit.
And on another note, the tooltip says it deals 100% of damage in a 5 hit DoT, but in my testing and analysis of stuff I've done, the DoT hits don't quite add up to 100% of the original Anvil hit (ex: landed ~10 mil Anvil, DoT hits summed up to ~9.3 mil). Close enough for all intents and purposes though.
4. Your preference, really. I know a few GFs out there who use Negation, a few Elven Battles, and the occasional Soulforged
I'm going to borrow the wisdom of the best there is, in addition to the mad scientist: don't obsess over DR too much. It took me a while to realize this, but you don't need to be at 95% DR 24/
As the mad scientist will point out, there are a "variety" (an by variety, Sharp means "DC and the occasional OP") who will be able to fill out your last % of DR.
5. I tried Artificer's on GF back when the Forgehammer was, well, you know...
It was alright, but most of the time, I don't need 15k Recovery if I time my attacks right. But the movement speed buff was hard to give up...
I don't think Assassin's is too bad for a GF. I mean, sure, you loose like 3-5% DR, 3-5% Deflect, and maybe 1-2.5% Lifesteal? For me, it was almost nothing, as I still had a handy DR amount, Deflect is lolbad, and my Lifesteal was still sitting around 14.5%.
6. I'd go for Bonding Comp/Air Archon/Siege Master/Fire Archon/your choice.
Bonding Comp, Siege Master, and Air Archon are must haves on any DPS build.
Fire Archon takes advantage of some of our abilities which work better at low health (Orcus + Anvil).
The last slot is your choice, primarily because it's your preferences on how you want to do this. I know Bethel would probably go for Earth Archon, due to Lifesteal & FR keeping him topped off. I personally prefer the War Boar, simply because I'm pretty decent about keeping my targets marked, and I tend to get chipped a lot thanks to the Survivors Wraps, so I won't be at full health when I need it.
Although they aren't as good as the raw damage companions, you could also go for one of the CA comps or Crit Severity ones, since CA is available from a wide variety of sources and Crit Severity is useful as long as you Crit.
I had the same thought on lightning and tried it. Didn't notice much of a difference to be honest. I just don't think we have the proc rates to make great use of it.
I'll just resign myself to having to get used to lower aoe damage.
I tend to fall in the "need to always be at 100% crit" category, but doing the math on future gear it just looks quite difficult without using a few azures. Since I despise single stat enchants maybe I'll settle for around 90% plus pots, boons, and conqueror capstone.
Probably won't bother with artificer's then. It's mostly the lifesteal loss from assassin's i'm worried about. My planned build will only have around 13% LS, which is already lower than I'd like. Might be something I have to play around with.
I totally missed the war boar. I'll definitely take that over a fire archon any day. I tend to dislike bonuses that are only active on targets under certain HP conditions.
> Recently moved all my stuff from my CW onto my GF to give this whole mad DPS GF thing a whirl. After a few days playing around, I'm loving it, but I've naturally gathered a few questions:
>
> 1. Is there any ways to up my aoe dps? I was running ITF, ET, and lunging strike for aoe, but found lunging strike to be cumbersome to use and even when I hit multiple targets with it, it still seemed lackluster.
>
> I switched it out for knights challenge to put on the biggest enemy so he'll die around the same time as the trash, and that seems a bit better. Still though, overall I feel like I'm just hacking away with WMS for far too long. Sometime I even feel like I clear stuff faster using crushing surge to kill stuff one by one.
>
> Am I doing something wrong? Is lunging strike actually really good for aoe and I'm bad at using it, or is it just that i'm used to being the undisputed king of AoE on my wizard and my damage is as good as it gets?
>
> 2. What crit chance am I aiming for? Obviously 100%, but do I rely on my capstone to help me out, and only go for ~90% without it? In trash clearing situations I can see that as viable, but I feel like in single target you just won't get hit enough?
>
> 3. If anvil of doom is the skill that drops an enemy below half health, does it still trigger the dot on anvil, or does the enemy need to be below half before I land the anvil?
>
> 4. What armor enchant do you recommend? I was thinking elven as I'm constantly getting knocked around because I try to avoid raising my shield as much as possible. I can also see negation being useful because I'll undoubtedly be a bit under the damage resist cap even at full build. I think I'm OK with this though as this character is designed for the end game speed farm groups where pallies and clerics and stuff like shepards devotion can fill out my damage resist for content that needs it. Remember, this character is designed as DPS first, tank second.
>
> 5. Insignia bonuses - I'm thinking camraderie, friendship, and guile for sure. Is artificier's worth it for me? I always felt it was pretty bad with the wheel (which I'll be using) as I typically pop wheel before power buffs get applied and you lose a second of uptime after popping the wheel getting into combat. I'm also not confident I'll be able to pull off assassin's and still live?
>
> 6. companions - Thinking con summoned, earth, air, siege, and fire? I really hate fire, but there's nothing better right? Since I'm running a vorpal I feel like crit severity companions are out.
>
> Thanks in advance for any help.
Reeeeallly wish you hadn't used "Full DPS GF" in the title.
<Sigh>
[Closes the Barracks door to keep the nerfGF gnats out]
Re: AoE damage...
As RJC9000 said, GFs cannot compete with CW or HR in AoE damage. No way.
ET, Lunging Strike, Frontline Surge, Linebreaker’s Assault... that's all we got.
None of them has crushingly high damage.
Gotta layer-on synchronized damage effects (jagged blades, Crushing pin, battle trample, combat superiority...) or bling-bling the extra AoE damage with enchants and pets.
I agree with Lightning for AoE. On my Conqueror Solo Loadout I get very fast low-level mob/trash clearing with my Trans Lightning.
Also use AoE damage pets like the Death Slaad. It all adds up.
I am Took.
"Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
I've been looking for an alternate to the rust monster for added dps in solo content/T2's. I go straight into WMS for mobs right after an ET. So I'm not feeling the war boar except in boss fights. I use the otherwise useless water or is it earth?..archon in last FBI boss fight......thank you clerics, I'm at max HP the whole fight.
Do you like anything else?
I think another thing you might need to remember is... GF's are like GWF's DPS wise (without the attack speed boost from Unstoppable)... in that we are less encounter dependant and more at-will depending for damage.
Coming from CW... which are the opposite... you might be thinking too much about your encounters... and not just spamming Weapon Master Strike.
Also the order of things is a bit important...
Lunging Strike... is just a quick burst to get to the mobs... it's damage is not all that important. Once you get the said trash pack... it should be ITF (overall damage boost + temp hps for Wrathful Warrior)--> ET (Mark + CA) --> WMS Spam... repeat as ITF and ET come off cooldown. (You can also just have Knights Challenge slotted and use it on higher HP trash mobs (Also make sure you are Tab Marking those... since they will live a few more seconds than the rest))
Also make sure you are using Steel Blitz with your AOE Loadout. I would also endorse use of Death Slaad companion... one it's good for tanking (when you are tanking) and I want to say that the poison ticks also can trigger Steel Blitz for some extra bonus damage. (maybe this got fixed with the Lightning Enchant nerf... I don't run Lightning... so I'm unsure if that has happened.. maybe it was just rumor...)
In the end.. like rjc9000 mentioned... you aren't going to do AOE king DPS damage. DPS GF catches up on high HP Mobs and Bosses with the use of KC.
I also tent to use Knee Breaker vs. Anvil on bosses... since it is effective through the entire fight.
Also what's the primary enchant you are running? Feytouch or Vorpal? I'm going to assume Trans level?
Feytouch has the advantage of being pretty versatile for both tanking and DPS. It also improves Jagged Blades which is weapon damage based. If you are running Fey and are still at or close to 100% crit.. then running some crit severity companions would be a good option... since you aren't in diminished returns territory. As we have no feated crit severity... unlike most DPS classes which pushes them into higher crit severity %'s.
Maybe you are already doing the above, but thought I would mention Steel Blitz for example since I hadn't seen anyone else yet.
- Forge (GF)
- Apocalypse - (DC)
- Sadus (OP)
- Fireball (GWF)
- Ixian (CW)
Thank you Loadouts for allowing my toons to be all the things... they ever wanted to be....
Member of Ember Legion
For the aoe rotation, shouldn't it be 1 WMS before ET to proc staggering challenege then WMS away?
It's odd you mention steel blitz. From what I've heard combat superiority is supposed to be better all the time. Why is steel blitz better for AoE?
I'm currently running trans vorpal with around a 60-70% crit chance (due to lack of end game gear). I'm planning on getting feytouched eventually though.
I've tried knee breaker but don't really see the same damage as anvil. Maybe it's just cause I'm a sucker for those big hp drops on bosses.
Combat Superiority is a must have 24/7. Free damage boost from enemies touching you once? Yes please! Steel Bliz doesn't compare in DPS boost unless mobs can die before they can touch you (which, in that case, adding your DPS is going to be mostly superfluous to begin with).
From what I've tested (really lazily), Steel Blitz does not proc on Lightning chains like the GWF does. And even if the Lightning + Steel Blitz thing worked on GF, you wouldn't benefit from it as much as GWFs would, as GWF has less weapon damage, GF WMS doesn't double proc Lightning, and the GF doesn't have the benefit of double swing speed like the GWF does.
Staggering Challenge only applies to Griffon's and Knight's Challenge. If you're thinking about Staying Power, then yeah, you can choose to toss it out before applying ET. Your call, but I personally just prefer to just use ET for AoE marking + aggro, then use WMS.
If you're comparing Knee Breaker to Anvil, then in my opinion, the easiest way to compare them is to look at their ability coefficient. Tossing in buffs and weapon damage and ability coefficient is pointless, because the GF will have the same modifiers for either one. Assuming you have R4 in each...
Anvil R4 above 50% HP: (1.3) * (4.32) = 5.616
(1.3 represents the Rank bonus and 4.32 is the actual coefficient.)
Knee Breaker R4: 1.62 + (0.54 *14) = 9.18
(Knee Breaker's rank bonus is simply more hits, so at R4, Knee Breaker hits 15 times, split between the kicking hitbox and the 14 DoT hits.)
As you can see, at above half health, assuming you let all the Knee Breaker hits play out, then Knee Breaker hits harder than Anvil. The reason you might feel it doesn't hit as hard is because most of the DPS comes from the DoT effect, which probably won't be as satisfying or immediate as landing that multi-million Anvil, or landing that multi-million 3x Griffon's combo.
However, this comparison assumes you let all the KB hits play out, which may not happen on enemies which die quickly. And, besides, what about Anvil on an enemy at half or lower health?
Anvil R4 at 50% or lower HP:
(1.3 * 4.32) + (1.3* [0.85*5])
5.616 + 5.525
11.141
So if Anvil strikes a target at half or lower HP and your target gets affected by all the DoT hits, Anvil just plain rekts Knee Breaker in terms of damage. Also of note: Anvil doesn't take as much time to cast and the DoT is pretty quick, which also adds to its favor on dealing damage.
Hope this helps.
----
Sharp, since I know the CWs have the special [Eye of the Illuminati] integrated class feature, you can correct me as needed.
Ah, I did mean staying power instead of staggering challenge.
That is really helpful info on knee breaker vs anvil. One other question on the subject. If you're in a good cooldown reset group and you get off two kneebreakers or anvils (below 50% hp) in a row, do the dots from the same skill stack, or reset the duration?
Thanks again.
I think rjc9000 pretty much has already addressed your questions, but I wanted to response to your specific questions behind my thought process....
Just to clarify about Steel Blitz, I wasn't suggesting dropping Combat Superiority. I was thinking you would drop Steel Grace for strictly AOE trash clearing. True you'll lose the movement and the 5% crit, but I wasn't sure about it's value while using a Lightning Enchant and also it's potential to proc Death Slaad's poison proc.
For using ET before WMS... as rjc9000 mentioned... it's to mark the all the mobs and also to grab initial aggro. As you are not a GWF... even as a DPS GF you'll still be expected to TANK. Certainly not with to the same level of survivability as a tankie Loadout, but you'll be expected to at least hold aggro. IMO you should only be using your max DPS loadout on solo/farm/trivial content. I several varieties of DPSish... with max DPS, less DPS 80% DR, and full tank loadouts. As well as AOE vs. single target. Obviously some are just skill changes that can be done quickly vs. manually changing them.
rjc9000 already covered Kneebreaker damage. Kneebreaker does also trigger Crushing Pin on non-CC immune mobs and slows them... which is useful on the sentry orcs on the FBI hill for example.
I also like Kneebreaker due to the prolonged dot... that is good for holding aggro on boss/mobs with lots of movement. Drufi would be a good example. Although, I know this thread is more about max dps vs. threat. As they are not necessarily one in the same.
Thanks!
- Forge (GF)
- Apocalypse - (DC)
- Sadus (OP)
- Fireball (GWF)
- Ixian (CW)
Thank you Loadouts for allowing my toons to be all the things... they ever wanted to be....
Member of Ember Legion
I'm not really concerned with holding aggro on a full dps build as the ideal group composition is to also be running with a pally tank, who'll be doing most of the actual tanking. I'll get aggro naturally on bosses when I knights challenge them, and for short times on mobs with ET. Those windows of aggro should be enough to keep combat superiority up. Outside of that I'd rather let the pally actually tank so I can keep my shield down.
Gotcha.
Hopefully you have a regular group of Guildmates or buddies to maintain those ideal group comps.
Definitely, awesome if you do!
- Forge (GF)
- Apocalypse - (DC)
- Sadus (OP)
- Fireball (GWF)
- Ixian (CW)
Thank you Loadouts for allowing my toons to be all the things... they ever wanted to be....
Member of Ember Legion
>
> I'm not really concerned with holding aggro on a full dps build as the ideal group composition is to also be running with a pally tank, who'll be doing most of the actual tanking. I'll get aggro naturally on bosses when I knights challenge them, and for short times on mobs with ET. Those windows of aggro should be enough to keep combat superiority up. Outside of that I'd rather let the pally actually tank so I can keep my shield down.
If you run with your own posse/guild 100% of the time, all of whom are:
1) aware that your GF is not a tank, and
2) your GF must always run with a tankadin to hold aggro and
3) your GF must alway run with a party already at the Debuff cap.
If you 100% time run with these same players, awesome. Enjoy.
But for God's sake, do not take this non-tank GF outside of that group or (heaven forbid) into a LFG party.
The rage you incite will burn all the rest of us. This is strictly a "play with friends only" build. Apart from that, enjoy.
I am Took.
"Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
I always follow the motto of "build your character for the best group, then, make it work for anything else"
I like my DPS setup for my campaigns and dailies, it makes them quicker but by no means is my GF a DPS by any long shot.
Watch out @xsayajinx1, sounds like we have a professional opinion that you're clearly no match for @wickedduck22#9795!
Yes a GF can have a heavier focus on damage with Conqueror and do well in damage but our focus should be on tanking first and foremost.
Ran with a few 3-4KIL (prior to the update) GF DPS on my GF and man did their damage blow. I was at about 65% of their damage using my full on Tac Tank build. They were getting doubled by 3K or lower true DPS players that had the right build and R12 bonding. Both GF had full on DPS companions, boons, etc...
Other things to consider: One of the best damage moves for a GF is Enforced Threat, if you are a full on DPS you cannot run that as you are pulling threat away from the actual tank, not a good idea.
Next up is how GF que into dungeons, no matter how we build our GF, we are always considered a tank.
I don't care if a GF beats other players in the paingiver, I do it quite frequently but I don't consider my GF a DPS because I can never que into a dungeon as a DPS without using a private que and even than I know I'm a tank and not a DPS.
Until the devs update the que and give us an AoE that does not cause threat, GF from my point of view is a Tank.
You've given an example of some so-called dps GF's being unimpressive. Well they aren't real dps GF's, period. There are very few out there. And even fewer that are seriously effective. These guys who are truly dps spec, get into groups and private que. They make sure that the whole team understands that they aren't going to tank. Therefore an actual tank, preferably an OP, takes the mantle of tank in said group. Private ques still exist, so this is a possibility.
ET is still viable as a dps GF in FBI/msva. Matter of fact, I've seen dps GF's run ET and Line Breaker Assault on the hill climb. Super strong groups don't need to worry about who has the threat because they melt things so fast.
Also, the Conqueror gets stronger if you're performing your tanking duties (ie, getting hit). Tank or not in your eyes, GF has the tools to defend, deal good damage, and buff at the same time.
The point of my argument was trying to point out that there are smart Conqueror GFs out there who can defend, deal top tier damge, and buff all at the same time.
Can never die!
Has unlimited ITF uptime!
Moves really fast!
Does ULDPE (ultra low damage per eternity) with 16k Ilvl and R12 Bondings!
Watch out DPS classes, for you role has been replaced by the stone wall GF who can poke things to death... for hours and hours on end!
"how many of them...?"
"all four of them Your Majesty !!"
..............
"we're doomed!"
A proud member of "mythical horde of DPS GFs"
1). Is SW more dps or tank based?
2). Yes. I am panzer!
3). Get ACT if you want to celebrate your epeen.
4). Horniness will not stand between me and what I believe - "MM"
This spec is worth it purely for the WTF comments I get after pug runs on the easy dungeons.
Stay strong brothers! we shall kick HAMSTER against the odds - hey wait! we have a shield why are we doing damage ?!? give us dual swords lol.
A proud member of "mythical horde of DPS GFs"
1). Is SW more dps or tank based?
2). Yes. I am panzer!
3). Get ACT if you want to celebrate your epeen.
4). Horniness will not stand between me and what I believe - "MM"
Rise to POWER with <House of Power>.
The Exterminator - (NW-DLNXF3BGG)