> @kydavi#1678 said: > In an end-game party I don't see a reason to be Tactician or Protector spec to be honest. > > > > Do I miss something? > > As another writer already stated, Conqueror is for personal DPS, Protector and Tactician are for buffing; there is nothing wrong with going Conqueror, but even high-end parties will love you more if you are support the team rather than chase the Paingiver. > > Just yesterday I was on chat listening to a group of my friends getting mauled in a MSVA run because their tank was a Con GF built for personal DPS and kept getting mutilated by the boss (they were only running one tank in order to get an extra DC); after hearing them fail a second time I offered to join them with my buffing tank. They dropped the DPS tank, pulled me in and we blasted through the skirmish with a banner run. My tank is only 3205 IL, just barely MSVA capable, but I don't die and I buff my whole party for smooth runs no matter the content or party IL.
Do you mind pass me your build or a similar to do msva and FBI pls?
> Just yesterday I was on chat listening to a group of my friends getting mauled in a MSVA run because their tank was a Con GF built for personal DPS and kept getting mutilated by the boss (they were only running one tank in order to get an extra DC); after hearing them fail a second time I offered to join them with my buffing tank. They dropped the DPS tank, pulled me in and we blasted through the skirmish with a banner run. My tank is only 3205 IL, just barely MSVA capable, but I don't die and I buff my whole party for smooth runs no matter the content or party IL.
Do you mind pass me your build or a similar to do msva and FBI pls?
That team is dumb for trying to run a solotank with a GF. Duumverate is going to murder that GF no matter how good your GF is and you can't just AA your way through things anymore.
Even if you're trying to argue that the team was going for a quick burn-down, a quick burndown would mean that each team would have a GF (so all DPSers get ITF), which means the team wouldn't have to rely a solo-tank.
> Just yesterday I was on chat listening to a group of my friends getting mauled in a MSVA run because their tank was a Con GF built for personal DPS and kept getting mutilated by the boss (they were only running one tank in order to get an extra DC); after hearing them fail a second time I offered to join them with my buffing tank. They dropped the DPS tank, pulled me in and we blasted through the skirmish with a banner run. My tank is only 3205 IL, just barely MSVA capable, but I don't die and I buff my whole party for smooth runs no matter the content or party IL.
Do you mind pass me your build or a similar to do msva and FBI pls?
That team is dumb for trying to run a solotank with a GF. Duumverate is going to murder that GF no matter how good your GF is and you can't just AA your way through things anymore.
Even if you're trying to argue that the team was going for a quick burn-down, a quick burndown would mean that each team would have a GF (so all DPSers get ITF), which means the team wouldn't have to rely a solo-tank.
@rjc9000 I have been the only tank in a few MSVA runs and my GF (tac tank specced obviously though) can survive Duumverate (if by that you mean the attack that roots you then follows with an aoe move that hits very very hard) without anointed army and other powers Sure I take massive damage but I can recover my hp real fast with the dcs/pallys/by myself with fighter's recovery and guarded assault + combat superiority combo during or after the attack Obviously for that it is mandatory to have a HAMSTER load of hp, dr, ef resistance + debuff feats/enchs/companions if available (I don't have atm but looking forward to getting chicken and rust monster) that's one of the reasons I'm hesitating to change my ability scores to fit better a dps build once loadouts drop on console, I do not want to lose my self-suficiency Unlike properly built protection paladins, we GF's actually are mortal beings and doing mistakes (like not timing shield + encounters) can get us 1 shotted almost as easily as any dps class, we live and die by our shield as none of our powers gives us any sort of decent takiness and survability... I remember this paladin comparing templar's wrath and binding oath with... shielded resurgence, grit, temporary hp from fray and take measure I think... guys I couldn't stop laughing my HAMSTER off for a while TW vs... shielded resurgence xD oh wait, and iron warrior too! lol. Maybe he read the tooltip and when seeing "gain teporary hitpoints based on your missing hp" he thought it would be comparable to templar's wrath xD If iron warrior would give me 2,6 million + temporary hp in MSVA I wouldn't complain for sure yet they (pallys) want their dps buffed to the moon lol.
Quoting my 4,3k pally friend after running some MSVA's with him: "I get so much temporary hp when storvard hits me my green hp bar is still covered by them".
Bottomline is, we GF's have to invest heavily in survability to do our job well (and our tankiness, albeit good, is an absolute joke compared to OP's) yet people (mostly paladins and great weapon fighters) want us nerfed to oblivion, that's ridiculous.
Oh but yeah, even if possible to do with just 1 GF, if both teams have dps there should be that tank type on each.
The other possibility is that the group didn't have good DPS... my guess... they also wanted the extra DC... in a misguided attempt to keep the DSP from constantly taking dirt naps... as we all know...part of being a good DPS is also knowing how to keep yourself alive (not taking lazy unnecessary damage... or being made of tissue paper)... so you can actually do said DPS...
@rjc9000@jaime4312 Yeah, just yesterday I solo tanked 5 MSVA runs with a 3 DC pug group. (I am in a different time zone than the majority of my guildies so I miss most of the guild MSVA runs.)
I find that the GF Sigil - which otherwise collects dust due to the Deflect and AoE Resist stats – is incredibly useful in MSVA just for Duumvirate. I pop the sigil when he roots me, then shield up, and my health bar barely quivers when he Duums. The Sigil is amazing for just such a mechanic: a predictable, infrequent, high damage boss encounter power.
With a decent group, I’ll have maybe one or two Duums during the middle of the fight during which the Sigil is on cooldown. I lose a chunk of my health, even more if AA is down, but I’m ok as long as I am near full when he goes off. Good lifesteal and Guarded Assault helps with that, of course. (Steel Grace is my other Personal.)
During the last phase he can chain Duum, so it gets interesting, but again I do fine. Everyone really has to stay tight during phase 1 so I can keep agro on all the trolls, yetis and giants; and a hastening light from one of the DCs is very helpful.
I like two-tanking it; and I know I probably won’t be getting the Master title while solo tanking, but I roll with whatever the group wants to do.
Mitty
Oh, FYI, I am now a 3700 hybrid spec, Conq specced with 15 in Tactician, and I took mostly offensive boons save for a few of the big heals (think Augmented Thayan Bastion). But my gear is largely the same as it was when I was Tactician, with less recovery and more power and crit. I stay at the DR cap accounting for Armor Spec and Camaraderie, my health is 176,000 without buffs, lifesteal just over 20%, 60% RI, and my recovery is probably 8500. Valhalla Set, Purple Relic Weapons and 3 Relic Armor + the PvP gloves. GF Sigil, Lantern and Sybol of Fire are my other Artifacts. Comps are Dancing Shield Summoned, Sylph, Energon, Air Archon, and Rust Monster or Siege Master depending on the group. (I will switch out the Energon when the guild gets the HP boon up a few levels.)
With this setup a find myself more than tanky enough, and my damage is probably triple what I was doing as Tact - I think - anyway it's enough to make dailies a breeze. I think I found the sweet spot, for me anyway. I usually swap in a purple orcus set and a dps ring if I am doing solo content.
Edit: I am really not sure AA was ever not up for Duum. I just know that sometimes I go *really* low on health without my sigil, and sometimes I just lost a third of my health or so.
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dread4moorMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,154Arc User
rjc9000 said: » show previous quotes That team is dumb for trying to run a solotank with a GF. Duumverate is going to murder that GF no matter how good your GF is and you can't just AA your way through things anymore.
My Protector: 190k HP, 110%DR, 50% Deflect, Permashield... Google "tank" and see my toon's picture... and she still gets one shot sometimes if hit by Duumvarate alone.
So yeah, best to have 2 tanks in mSVA to share the Duumvarate. [So glad I don't need to queue for that anymore.]
I am Took.
"Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
I'm always using it in FBI and all the rund I'm actually tanking.
I'm the ones blessed by the beautiful aura of not having to go to mSVA anymore (yay!) yet I went in some time ago because a friend was screaming for a tank.
As a solo tank I died on Duumvarate twice. And from what I can tell majority of the damage that can one shot us is KV.
Even though we're post AA immortality era, there are still many players that just do not want to understand that they're not demigods and need to go out of red (!).
So I died once, from full HP (5 stacks of Dancing Shield debuff, 240k HP, Rust Monster, Chicken etc you get the idea). Than just to test I turned KV off, and after another Duumvarate I was barely tickled by it.
Of course those two situations could be totally different but it's not a mystery that we're mostly killed by KV anyway.
GF is miles harder to tank than OP, no question asked. When I hear about millions of temp HP generated by a Pally, well yeah...
Just to note, about KV, I'm totally against turning it off - this is one of the most important reasons to be a tank. It's totally and non arguably our duty to shield party members first, all the rest is just an added value.
Nancy - Dragonborn, SM Guardian Fighter A proud member of "mythical horde of DPS GFs"
1). Is SW more dps or tank based? 2). Yes. I am panzer! 3). Get ACT if you want to celebrate your epeen. 4). Horniness will not stand between me and what I believe - "MM"
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dread4moorMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,154Arc User
> @kemi1984 said: > Simple question quys, are you using KV in mSVA ? > > I'm always using it in FBI and all the rund I'm actually tanking. > > I'm the ones blessed by the beautiful aura of not having to go to mSVA anymore (yay!) yet I went in some time ago because a friend was screaming for a tank. > > As a solo tank I died on Duumvarate twice. And from what I can tell majority of the damage that can one shot us is KV. > > Even though we're post AA immortality era, there are still many players that just do not want to understand that they're not demigods and need to go out of red (!). > > So I died once, from full HP (5 stacks of Dancing Shield debuff, 240k HP, Rust Monster, Chicken etc you get the idea). Than just to test I turned KV off, and after another Duumvarate I was barely tickled by it. > > Of course those two situations could be totally different but it's not a mystery that we're mostly killed by KV anyway. > > GF is miles harder to tank than OP, no question asked. When I hear about millions of temp HP generated by a Pally, well yeah... > > Just to note, about KV, I'm totally against turning it off - this is one of the most important reasons to be a tank. > It's totally and non arguably our duty to shield party members first, all the rest is just an added value.
KV is the single most efficient GF tanking power. Aggro or no aggro, DPS or no DPS, KV guarantees you arrive protecting the party. When in party I have it on 24/7.
But it requires a meticulous build and constant awareness/timing to handle all that incoming damage.
And yes, Kem, KV is the only way I die in mSVA (or anywhere else, in fact). But not often. I stack every "regain x% of you max HP when you drop below y% HP" possible and save FRecovery for when I feel a big hit coming and no problem. Duumverate only kills me when I'm not paying attention.
I am Took.
"Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
I'm always using it in FBI and all the rund I'm actually tanking.
I'm the ones blessed by the beautiful aura of not having to go to mSVA anymore (yay!) yet I went in some time ago because a friend was screaming for a tank.
As a solo tank I died on Duumvarate twice. And from what I can tell majority of the damage that can one shot us is KV.
Even though we're post AA immortality era, there are still many players that just do not want to understand that they're not demigods and need to go out of red (!).
So I died once, from full HP (5 stacks of Dancing Shield debuff, 240k HP, Rust Monster, Chicken etc you get the idea). Than just to test I turned KV off, and after another Duumvarate I was barely tickled by it.
Of course those two situations could be totally different but it's not a mystery that we're mostly killed by KV anyway.
GF is miles harder to tank than OP, no question asked. When I hear about millions of temp HP generated by a Pally, well yeah...
Just to note, about KV, I'm totally against turning it off - this is one of the most important reasons to be a tank. It's totally and non arguably our duty to shield party members first, all the rest is just an added value.
@kemi1984 I always have KV on in MSVA and pretty much all group content (just in case, for example if running etos and I see pug teammates know what they are doing I switch to CS).
I hear you, I'm glad the mindless MSVA farm is over, had to do it for 2 characters...
Here are a few factors that could be what got you instakilled, one or a few of them combined are bad enough to significantly cause you to take much more damage through KV.
- People switching back to dragonflight/dust/mastercraft gear once inside the dungeon makes them take massive damage (evefrost) that can one 1 - 2 shot them quite easily. It happens more often than you think, those individuals, being so weak to everfrost, can make Duumverate more deadly than it already is if you are using KV... with the first hit your toon will suffer then the EF damage tick will kick in and because of those gus having little to no resistance to it (they will take crazy high damage), it can kill you and it happens so fast that it looks like you're only getting dropped by 1 hit but in reality you may be getting 2 shotted: your toon survives the physical damage hit with medium to low health then the everfrost tick finishes you off, it happens very very fast, I don't think there's even half a scond of difference between the physical hit and the EF tick that follows afterwards.
- I never thought of it but @rjc9000 explained it and I trust him in that if Storvard isn't driven away from his icy terrain-like power and he keeps standing on it, it will power him up and thus making him strong enough to 1 shot you even with all the good tanking stats and items you have.
- Latency issues, you may never have them but is a possibily, some times MSVA gets laggy and video lags behind audio, it has happened to me so my only way to survive is to hear the sound of the axe aoe attack being on its way to me, I put shield up and hope for the best (in my screen, Storvard is just standing still lol), if the delay isn't too bad I can do it.
Those 3 factors can make me lose different amounts of hp when I tank MSVA, it varies from group to group. Just to note, I am IV so no steel defence for me. Damage taken can vary from zero/almost nothing to around 85% of my hp (it happened the other day, I think there was only 1 dc alive or none at all plus a few dps alive, terribad group of randies lol with dragonflight/dusk and they had no clue what they were doing, dps was horribad, too)
And yeah anyone who has played both tank classes/ran with a GF/OP friend will notice right away it is way harder to tank as GF (well, OP tanking is brain dead easy) and there's a substantial survability gap on OP's favour.
KV would explain it - I do not run that in MSVA. Fray, ET for phase 1, and Commanders Strike is my usual encounter loadout in there. I run with 55% Everfrost resist which factors in.
I'm always using it in FBI and all the rund I'm actually tanking.
I'm the ones blessed by the beautiful aura of not having to go to mSVA anymore (yay!) yet I went in some time ago because a friend was screaming for a tank.
As a solo tank I died on Duumvarate twice. And from what I can tell majority of the damage that can one shot us is KV.
Even though we're post AA immortality era, there are still many players that just do not want to understand that they're not demigods and need to go out of red (!).
So I died once, from full HP (5 stacks of Dancing Shield debuff, 240k HP, Rust Monster, Chicken etc you get the idea). Than just to test I turned KV off, and after another Duumvarate I was barely tickled by it.
Of course those two situations could be totally different but it's not a mystery that we're mostly killed by KV anyway.
GF is miles harder to tank than OP, no question asked. When I hear about millions of temp HP generated by a Pally, well yeah...
Just to note, about KV, I'm totally against turning it off - this is one of the most important reasons to be a tank. It's totally and non arguably our duty to shield party members first, all the rest is just an added value.
@kemi1984 I always have KV on in MSVA and pretty much all group content (just in case, for example if running etos and I see pug teammates know what they are doing I switch to CS).
I hear you, I'm glad the mindless MSVA farm is over, had to do it for 2 characters...
Here are a few factors that could be what got you instakilled, one or a few of them combined are bad enough to significantly cause you to take much more damage through KV.
- People switching back to dragonflight/dust/mastercraft gear once inside the dungeon makes them take massive damage (evefrost) that can one 1 - 2 shot them quite easily. It happens more often than you think, those individuals, being so weak to everfrost, can make Duumverate more deadly than it already is if you are using KV... with the first hit your toon will suffer then the EF damage tick will kick in and because of those gus having little to no resistance to it (they will take crazy high damage), it can kill you and it happens so fast that it looks like you're only getting dropped by 1 hit but in reality you may be getting 2 shotted: your toon survives the physical damage hit with medium to low health then the everfrost tick finishes you off, it happens very very fast, I don't think there's even half a scond of difference between the physical hit and the EF tick that follows afterwards.
- I never thought of it but @rjc9000 explained it and I trust him in that if Storvard isn't driven away from his icy terrain-like power and he keeps standing on it, it will power him up and thus making him strong enough to 1 shot you even with all the good tanking stats and items you have.
- Latency issues, you may never have them but is a possibily, some times MSVA gets laggy and video lags behind audio, it has happened to me so my only way to survive is to hear the sound of the axe aoe attack being on its way to me, I put shield up and hope for the best (in my screen, Storvard is just standing still lol), if the delay isn't too bad I can do it.
Those 3 factors can make me lose different amounts of hp when I tank MSVA, it varies from group to group. Just to note, I am IV so no steel defence for me. Damage taken can vary from zero/almost nothing to around 85% of my hp (it happened the other day, I think there was only 1 dc alive or none at all plus a few dps alive, terribad group of randies lol with dragonflight/dusk and they had no clue what they were doing, dps was horribad, too)
And yeah anyone who has played both tank classes/ran with a GF/OP friend will notice right away it is way harder to tank as GF (well, OP tanking is brain dead easy) and there's a substantial survability gap on OP's favour.
Also, I just realized, in hindsight, that my Tactician GF isn't surviving the hits because I only run my Tactician with 30% everfrost resist. Most of the damage that tanks take in the Storm King instances is the Everfrost damage rather than conventional damage, which is why I'm getting rekt by the Everfrost hit rather than the conventional hit.
But I still think it's a stupid idea to go solo-tank, since it effectively relies on the GF having a lot of EF Resist and HP.
I think I'm something around 42% Everfrost resist is guess it is a hefty amount.
And thanks for pointing me into @archangelzorak01 's thing about the ice spikey zone thingy...little I can do about what people do, but If I ever return to mSVA I will politely ask to not put ice on Jar's feet (guess it's bad for his rheumatism).
Nancy - Dragonborn, SM Guardian Fighter A proud member of "mythical horde of DPS GFs"
1). Is SW more dps or tank based? 2). Yes. I am panzer! 3). Get ACT if you want to celebrate your epeen. 4). Horniness will not stand between me and what I believe - "MM"
@rjc9000 oh sorry, I tohught it was you the one who has stated that! Anyway, it is something interesting to test out and it would explain why Duumverate hit so much harder some times.
Yeah that low everfrost resist isn't good, you need to get it up on your tac set up. I hear you, I that noticed that on my GF when doing my first MSVA's, my GF seemed to be able to take the hit some times but then he'd get finished off by the EF damage an instant later so increasing hp and efr made a huge difference there.
Yeah just 1 tank is not a good idea at all.
@kemi1984 I think 42% is a decent amount of EF resistance to have although it wouldn't hurt to get it up by another 8% - 14%. Yeah nothing to do with randies and that icy terrain-like power buffing the HAMSTER out of Storvarld one can only hope for the best when getting invited to MSVA by randies.
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dread4moorMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,154Arc User
edited May 2017
> @kemi1984 said: > I think I'm something around 42% Everfrost resist is guess it is a hefty amount. > > And thanks for pointing me into @archangelzorak01 's thing about the ice spikey zone thingy...little I can do about what people do, but If I ever return to mSVA I will politely ask to not put ice on Jar's feet (guess it's bad for his rheumatism).
Here is a DPS related question that I hope someone might be able to shed some light on. Recently I built an Oppressor GF with that uses Crushing pin and Staying power. I have Brutal's in all offensive spots, Rebel mercenary with R12's, siege master, war boar, air archon and Erinyes. My crit chance in combat is 98.7, my power unbuffed is in the low 60's.... and I get owned in FBI, mSVA and SP by rouges, PVP geared GWF's and CW's/SW's of a similar gear score. I had heard tales of DPS built GF's that could do crazy damage. I have looked at the builds of some of those considered top on the server and I am not far off the mark from what they have. I understand that the ability to play the character is paramount but there is just not that much that one can do with a DPS GF. I am using Weapon Masters strike for my main atwill, I use ITF, Knee breaker and Griffin's/Anvil in these runs. What could I be missing? what should I be using if not these choices? or.. am I expecting too much from this type of build when compared to other classes? Is the key to dps running KC all the time?
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dread4moorMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,154Arc User
edited May 2017
> @mercedesman said: > Recently I built an Oppressor GF with that uses Crushing pin and Staying power.
Your Oppressor GF should max Icey Veins (to keep Chill stacks on mobs) and keep Chilling Presence in the passive slot.
Edit: Sry @mercedesman . Couldn't resist. The GFs I know with the highest damage output maximize Crit (as you did), Crit Severity (using vorpal?), Power and Crit/CC related damage abilities like Jagged Blades and Battle Trample.
I am Took.
"Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
Never tried a DPS suit in FBI or mSVA - I'm usually a dedicated tank out there.
What I can tell you trying a full blown DPS GF in eDemo, is that you will not have a good chance in crowded places. GF hit's hard, but it doesn't quite destroy pack of mobs like GWF, CW or HR.
If you really want to see those numbers, use KC, this bad boy will make you hit a LOT harder on a single target. Usually I'm tanking in eDemo still, but I can end up being top damage dealer in Gorristro and Demo phases.
For me KC is great for single target, but using it "along the way" just makes you inflate your damage a lot. Of course it's perfect when you want to kill the specific mob ASAP - this is strictly what it's designed for.
I would use KB, ITF and KC if I really want to destroy stuff.
Oh and sorry for possible stupid thing to add - I'm being cpt. obvious here
You want to use Vorpal and all the crit severity things you can use + don't forget to mark your targets. Mark provides combat advantage which is very important to have the numbers flying.
Nancy - Dragonborn, SM Guardian Fighter A proud member of "mythical horde of DPS GFs"
1). Is SW more dps or tank based? 2). Yes. I am panzer! 3). Get ACT if you want to celebrate your epeen. 4). Horniness will not stand between me and what I believe - "MM"
@mercedesman if you aren't using WMS to buff crushing surge for single target dps you are losing a lot of damage there.
Using WMS exclusively is a big no no for single target damage, like 99.99% swordmaster pve GF's of any build you can think of (I'm IV) I've seen do that mistake (this is what @rjc9000 refers to as "copy pasta GF's", they copy a build only in what powers to slot but they don't bother learning how and when you should use them) and you have the occasional GWF who refuses to believe you should use WMS to buff sure strike for single target dps xD
Here is a DPS related question that I hope someone might be able to shed some light on. Recently I built an [Conqueror] GF with that uses Crushing pin and Staying power. I have Brutal's in all offensive spots, Rebel mercenary with R12's, siege master, war boar, air archon and Erinyes. My crit chance in combat is 98.7, my power unbuffed is in the low 60's.... and I get owned in FBI, mSVA and SP by rouges, PVP geared GWF's and CW's/SW's of a similar gear score. I had heard tales of DPS built GF's that could do crazy damage. I have looked at the builds of some of those considered top on the server and I am not far off the mark from what they have. I understand that the ability to play the character is paramount but there is just not that much that one can do with a DPS GF. I am using Weapon Masters strike for my main atwill, I use ITF, Knee breaker and Griffin's/Anvil in these runs. What could I be missing? what should I be using if not these choices? or.. am I expecting too much from this type of build when compared to other classes? Is the key to dps running KC all the time?
Part of the fun and challenge is the delicate balance between offense and defense. In the harder stuff, the balance becomes a lot more delicate, which makes it a lot more fun, although you will curse the lag monster when you're trying to dodge the bullet hell of the FBI hill climb and you get rubberbanded into a stunlock/oneshot.
If it helps, when I run with well composed teams with DPSers of the likes of @gorillalike or @wickedduck22#9795 , I barely am able to do half of their DPS. I don't know what experience Bethel has in terms of DPS when compared to top tier DPSers, but from what can tell, he has the same experience as I do.
I'm not sure where Snoo (the best DPS GF there is) would stand from the current enchant changes, given how much the GWFs/CWs benefit from the new enchant changes. The GF doesn't benefit much, if at all from the enchant changes, so I wouldn't be surprised if Snoo's DPS output is compratively lower than before (since all the other DPSers will be able to slaughter everything much faster than his GF can).
Yes, you are missing out on Knight's Challenge, that's pretty much what gives you damage bonuses somewhat comparable to a GWF. In general, Knight's Challenge shines on groups with small groups of meaty targets, so you don't need to run it in places with lots of squishy mobs. It also is a must have on boss fights, otherwise, you're only doing (roughly) half of your single target DPS on bosses.
By the way. drop Griffons on FBI/Spellplague, especially the latter. The cooldown on Griffon's is way to high, and the fact that you have to expend 2/all 3 charges on one target doesn't do it any favors when there's a few meaty targets (FBI) or a bunch of targets (Spellplague).
Thanks a bunch.. this is great feedback. I run with Prokiller a bunch and would never try to get to his level of damage, that said, I want to get close enough to make him comment and think (he is a friend and guildie). I named my character "Broken" because he says that DPS GF's are just that.. broken.
I think that Prokiller was making a joke reflecting on a certain GWF's inability to to bother thinking, the latter citing anybody which understands how to DPS as "broken".
I could be wrong though, but either way... *begins opening up [Greater Box of Popcorn]*
Well Pro didn't mean it in mean spirit as I am not sure he has a mean bone in his body. I believe he was just initially surprised that a "tank" which supplies him with ITF and a mark and maybe KV could do a ton of damage. I certainly didn't take it from him that he was being super critical of the GF. However, he is British and therefore a little off.
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dread4moorMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,154Arc User
> @mercedesman said: > Well Pro didn't mean it in mean spirit as I am not sure he has a mean bone in his body. I believe he was just initially surprised that a "tank" which supplies him with ITF and a mark and maybe KV could do a ton of damage. I certainly didn't take it from him that he was being super critical of the GF. However, he is British and therefore a little off.
As for your DD criticism of Damage output, so long as you are doing your #1 job (threat and damage mitigation) and your #2 job (buff with Marks and ITF) no respectable/respected DPS player will care. BTW, Just ignore that annoying buzzing sound. Someone must have let a gnat in the Barracks.
I am Took.
"Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
Well Pro didn't mean it in mean spirit as I am not sure he has a mean bone in his body. I believe he was just initially surprised that a "tank" which supplies him with ITF and a mark and maybe KV could do a ton of damage. I certainly didn't take it from him that he was being super critical of the GF. However, he is British and therefore a little off.
> @mercedesman said: As for your DD criticism of Damage output, so long as you are doing your #1 job (threat and damage mitigation) and your #2 job (buff with Marks and ITF) no respectable/respected DPS player will care.
BTW, Just ignore that annoying buzzing sound. Someone must have let a gnat in the Barracks.
So ... anybody want some of that popcorn I warmed up while we call up the pest control?
And next time, I'll remember to close the door to the Guard Barracks next time, I promise.
If it helps, when I run with well composed teams with DPSers of the likes of @gorillalike or @wickedduck22#9795 , I barely am able to do half of their DPS. I don't know what experience Bethel has in terms of DPS when compared to top tier DPSers, but from what can tell, he has the same experience as I do.
That's correct, I also do half of Wicked/Prokill dmg, maybe few millions more if I pot up and stop trolling on chat.
I had heard tales of DPS built GF's that could do crazy damage. I have looked at the builds of some of those considered top on the server and I am not far off the mark from what they have.
GFs are not top dps, it's just a GWFs false propaganda!
I had heard tales of DPS built GF's that could do crazy damage. I have looked at the builds of some of those considered top on the server and I am not far off the mark from what they have.
GFs are not top dps, it's just a GWFs false propaganda!
Now pass me that popcorn please :S
Wait, hold on a second before I pass the popcorn... gotta make sure I got this right...
Oi, @dread4moor, are you sure you didn't mistake the buzzing sound with the sound of a baby's babbling?
Because I quite clearly heard a baby toddler walking in here crying. Somebody needs to be more responsible for their baby!
We can't have this poor little toddle injure themselves from mental exertion, because all that would do is have the baby cause a tantrum. And nobody likes it when a baby causes a ruckus!
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... Oh ... wait... you were sure it was a fly buzzing in here? Shame. I guess I need to call the pest control before it lands on our popcorn.
Speaking of the popcorn, I made the popcorn unsalted.
I reasoned we wouldn't need any butter or salt when we would have delicious tears as a gluten free substitute.
@rjc9000 lol, made my day already and I barely had any sleep because of MINE little one crying at night.
Nancy - Dragonborn, SM Guardian Fighter A proud member of "mythical horde of DPS GFs"
1). Is SW more dps or tank based? 2). Yes. I am panzer! 3). Get ACT if you want to celebrate your epeen. 4). Horniness will not stand between me and what I believe - "MM"
Comments
> In an end-game party I don't see a reason to be Tactician or Protector spec to be honest.
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>
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> Do I miss something?
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> As another writer already stated, Conqueror is for personal DPS, Protector and Tactician are for buffing; there is nothing wrong with going Conqueror, but even high-end parties will love you more if you are support the team rather than chase the Paingiver.
>
> Just yesterday I was on chat listening to a group of my friends getting mauled in a MSVA run because their tank was a Con GF built for personal DPS and kept getting mutilated by the boss (they were only running one tank in order to get an extra DC); after hearing them fail a second time I offered to join them with my buffing tank. They dropped the DPS tank, pulled me in and we blasted through the skirmish with a banner run. My tank is only 3205 IL, just barely MSVA capable, but I don't die and I buff my whole party for smooth runs no matter the content or party IL.
Do you mind pass me your build or a similar to do msva and FBI pls?
Even if you're trying to argue that the team was going for a quick burn-down, a quick burndown would mean that each team would have a GF (so all DPSers get ITF), which means the team wouldn't have to rely a solo-tank.
Quoting my 4,3k pally friend after running some MSVA's with him: "I get so much temporary hp when storvard hits me my green hp bar is still covered by them".
Bottomline is, we GF's have to invest heavily in survability to do our job well (and our tankiness, albeit good, is an absolute joke compared to OP's) yet people (mostly paladins and great weapon fighters) want us nerfed to oblivion, that's ridiculous.
Oh but yeah, even if possible to do with just 1 GF, if both teams have dps there should be that tank type on each.
- Forge (GF)
- Apocalypse - (DC)
- Sadus (OP)
- Fireball (GWF)
- Ixian (CW)
Thank you Loadouts for allowing my toons to be all the things... they ever wanted to be....
Member of Ember Legion
I find that the GF Sigil - which otherwise collects dust due to the Deflect and AoE Resist stats – is incredibly useful in MSVA just for Duumvirate. I pop the sigil when he roots me, then shield up, and my health bar barely quivers when he Duums. The Sigil is amazing for just such a mechanic: a predictable, infrequent, high damage boss encounter power.
With a decent group, I’ll have maybe one or two Duums during the middle of the fight during which the Sigil is on cooldown. I lose a chunk of my health, even more if AA is down, but I’m ok as long as I am near full when he goes off. Good lifesteal and Guarded Assault helps with that, of course. (Steel Grace is my other Personal.)
During the last phase he can chain Duum, so it gets interesting, but again I do fine. Everyone really has to stay tight during phase 1 so I can keep agro on all the trolls, yetis and giants; and a hastening light from one of the DCs is very helpful.
I like two-tanking it; and I know I probably won’t be getting the Master title while solo tanking, but I roll with whatever the group wants to do.
Mitty
Oh, FYI, I am now a 3700 hybrid spec, Conq specced with 15 in Tactician, and I took mostly offensive boons save for a few of the big heals (think Augmented Thayan Bastion). But my gear is largely the same as it was when I was Tactician, with less recovery and more power and crit. I stay at the DR cap accounting for Armor Spec and Camaraderie, my health is 176,000 without buffs, lifesteal just over 20%, 60% RI, and my recovery is probably 8500. Valhalla Set, Purple Relic Weapons and 3 Relic Armor + the PvP gloves. GF Sigil, Lantern and Sybol of Fire are my other Artifacts. Comps are Dancing Shield Summoned, Sylph, Energon, Air Archon, and Rust Monster or Siege Master depending on the group. (I will switch out the Energon when the guild gets the HP boon up a few levels.)
With this setup a find myself more than tanky enough, and my damage is probably triple what I was doing as Tact - I think - anyway it's enough to make dailies a breeze. I think I found the sweet spot, for me anyway. I usually swap in a purple orcus set and a dps ring if I am doing solo content.
Edit: I am really not sure AA was ever not up for Duum. I just know that sometimes I go *really* low on health without my sigil, and sometimes I just lost a third of my health or so.
» show previous quotes
That team is dumb for trying to run a solotank with a GF. Duumverate is going to murder that GF no matter how good your GF is and you can't just AA your way through things anymore.
My Protector: 190k HP, 110%DR, 50% Deflect, Permashield... Google "tank" and see my toon's picture... and she still gets one shot sometimes if hit by Duumvarate alone.
So yeah, best to have 2 tanks in mSVA to share the Duumvarate.
[So glad I don't need to queue for that anymore.]
I am Took.
"Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
I'm always using it in FBI and all the rund I'm actually tanking.
I'm the ones blessed by the beautiful aura of not having to go to mSVA anymore (yay!) yet I went in some time ago because a friend was screaming for a tank.
As a solo tank I died on Duumvarate twice. And from what I can tell majority of the damage that can one shot us is KV.
Even though we're post AA immortality era, there are still many players that just do not want to understand that they're not demigods and need to go out of red (!).
So I died once, from full HP (5 stacks of Dancing Shield debuff, 240k HP, Rust Monster, Chicken etc you get the idea). Than just to test I turned KV off, and after another Duumvarate I was barely tickled by it.
Of course those two situations could be totally different but it's not a mystery that we're mostly killed by KV anyway.
GF is miles harder to tank than OP, no question asked. When I hear about millions of temp HP generated by a Pally, well yeah...
Just to note, about KV, I'm totally against turning it off - this is one of the most important reasons to be a tank.
It's totally and non arguably our duty to shield party members first, all the rest is just an added value.
A proud member of "mythical horde of DPS GFs"
1). Is SW more dps or tank based?
2). Yes. I am panzer!
3). Get ACT if you want to celebrate your epeen.
4). Horniness will not stand between me and what I believe - "MM"
> Simple question quys, are you using KV in mSVA ?
>
> I'm always using it in FBI and all the rund I'm actually tanking.
>
> I'm the ones blessed by the beautiful aura of not having to go to mSVA anymore (yay!) yet I went in some time ago because a friend was screaming for a tank.
>
> As a solo tank I died on Duumvarate twice. And from what I can tell majority of the damage that can one shot us is KV.
>
> Even though we're post AA immortality era, there are still many players that just do not want to understand that they're not demigods and need to go out of red (!).
>
> So I died once, from full HP (5 stacks of Dancing Shield debuff, 240k HP, Rust Monster, Chicken etc you get the idea). Than just to test I turned KV off, and after another Duumvarate I was barely tickled by it.
>
> Of course those two situations could be totally different but it's not a mystery that we're mostly killed by KV anyway.
>
> GF is miles harder to tank than OP, no question asked. When I hear about millions of temp HP generated by a Pally, well yeah...
>
> Just to note, about KV, I'm totally against turning it off - this is one of the most important reasons to be a tank.
> It's totally and non arguably our duty to shield party members first, all the rest is just an added value.
KV is the single most efficient GF tanking power.
Aggro or no aggro, DPS or no DPS, KV guarantees you arrive protecting the party.
When in party I have it on 24/7.
But it requires a meticulous build and constant awareness/timing to handle all that incoming damage.
And yes, Kem, KV is the only way I die in mSVA (or anywhere else, in fact).
But not often. I stack every "regain x% of you max HP when you drop below y% HP" possible and save FRecovery for when I feel a big hit coming and no problem.
Duumverate only kills me when I'm not paying attention.
I am Took.
"Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
I hear you, I'm glad the mindless MSVA farm is over, had to do it for 2 characters...
Here are a few factors that could be what got you instakilled, one or a few of them combined are bad enough to significantly cause you to take much more damage through KV.
- People switching back to dragonflight/dust/mastercraft gear once inside the dungeon makes them take massive damage (evefrost) that can one 1 - 2 shot them quite easily. It happens more often than you think, those individuals, being so weak to everfrost, can make Duumverate more deadly than it already is if you are using KV... with the first hit your toon will suffer then the EF damage tick will kick in and because of those gus having little to no resistance to it (they will take crazy high damage), it can kill you and it happens so fast that it looks like you're only getting dropped by 1 hit but in reality you may be getting 2 shotted: your toon survives the physical damage hit with medium to low health then the everfrost tick finishes you off, it happens very very fast, I don't think there's even half a scond of difference between the physical hit and the EF tick that follows afterwards.
- I never thought of it but @rjc9000 explained it and I trust him in that if Storvard isn't driven away from his icy terrain-like power and he keeps standing on it, it will power him up and thus making him strong enough to 1 shot you even with all the good tanking stats and items you have.
- Latency issues, you may never have them but is a possibily, some times MSVA gets laggy and video lags behind audio, it has happened to me so my only way to survive is to hear the sound of the axe aoe attack being on its way to me, I put shield up and hope for the best (in my screen, Storvard is just standing still lol), if the delay isn't too bad I can do it.
Those 3 factors can make me lose different amounts of hp when I tank MSVA, it varies from group to group. Just to note, I am IV so no steel defence for me. Damage taken can vary from zero/almost nothing to around 85% of my hp (it happened the other day, I think there was only 1 dc alive or none at all plus a few dps alive, terribad group of randies lol with dragonflight/dusk and they had no clue what they were doing, dps was horribad, too)
And yeah anyone who has played both tank classes/ran with a GF/OP friend will notice right away it is way harder to tank as GF (well, OP tanking is brain dead easy) and there's a substantial survability gap on OP's favour.
Also, I just realized, in hindsight, that my Tactician GF isn't surviving the hits because I only run my Tactician with 30% everfrost resist. Most of the damage that tanks take in the Storm King instances is the Everfrost damage rather than conventional damage, which is why I'm getting rekt by the Everfrost hit rather than the conventional hit.
But I still think it's a stupid idea to go solo-tank, since it effectively relies on the GF having a lot of EF Resist and HP.
And thanks for pointing me into @archangelzorak01 's thing about the ice spikey zone thingy...little I can do about what people do, but If I ever return to mSVA I will politely ask to not put ice on Jar's feet (guess it's bad for his rheumatism).
A proud member of "mythical horde of DPS GFs"
1). Is SW more dps or tank based?
2). Yes. I am panzer!
3). Get ACT if you want to celebrate your epeen.
4). Horniness will not stand between me and what I believe - "MM"
Yeah that low everfrost resist isn't good, you need to get it up on your tac set up. I hear you, I that noticed that on my GF when doing my first MSVA's, my GF seemed to be able to take the hit some times but then he'd get finished off by the EF damage an instant later so increasing hp and efr made a huge difference there.
Yeah just 1 tank is not a good idea at all.
@kemi1984 I think 42% is a decent amount of EF resistance to have although it wouldn't hurt to get it up by another 8% - 14%. Yeah nothing to do with randies and that icy terrain-like power buffing the HAMSTER out of Storvarld
> I think I'm something around 42% Everfrost resist is guess it is a hefty amount.
>
> And thanks for pointing me into @archangelzorak01 's thing about the ice spikey zone thingy...little I can do about what people do, but If I ever return to mSVA I will politely ask to not put ice on Jar's feet (guess it's bad for his rheumatism).
It's called hailstorm.
Here is a post describing it:
https://forum.arcgames.com/neverwinter/discussion/1228242/a-psa-on-msva-strategy-still-matters#latest
DPS who refuse to take the red circles away from the boss are a major pet peave for those of us Tanks who understand the mechanics of mSVA.
I am Took.
"Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
> Recently I built an Oppressor GF with that uses Crushing pin and Staying power.
Your Oppressor GF should max Icey Veins (to keep Chill stacks on mobs) and keep Chilling Presence in the passive slot.
Edit:
Sry @mercedesman . Couldn't resist.
The GFs I know with the highest damage output maximize Crit (as you did), Crit Severity (using vorpal?), Power and Crit/CC related damage abilities like Jagged Blades and Battle Trample.
I am Took.
"Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
Never tried a DPS suit in FBI or mSVA - I'm usually a dedicated tank out there.
What I can tell you trying a full blown DPS GF in eDemo, is that you will not have a good chance in crowded places.
GF hit's hard, but it doesn't quite destroy pack of mobs like GWF, CW or HR.
If you really want to see those numbers, use KC, this bad boy will make you hit a LOT harder on a single target.
Usually I'm tanking in eDemo still, but I can end up being top damage dealer in Gorristro and Demo phases.
For me KC is great for single target, but using it "along the way" just makes you inflate your damage a lot. Of course it's perfect when you want to kill the specific mob ASAP - this is strictly what it's designed for.
I would use KB, ITF and KC if I really want to destroy stuff.
Oh and sorry for possible stupid thing to add - I'm being cpt. obvious here
You want to use Vorpal and all the crit severity things you can use + don't forget to mark your targets. Mark provides combat advantage which is very important to have the numbers flying.
A proud member of "mythical horde of DPS GFs"
1). Is SW more dps or tank based?
2). Yes. I am panzer!
3). Get ACT if you want to celebrate your epeen.
4). Horniness will not stand between me and what I believe - "MM"
Using WMS exclusively is a big no no for single target damage, like 99.99% swordmaster pve GF's of any build you can think of (I'm IV) I've seen do that mistake (this is what @rjc9000 refers to as "copy pasta GF's", they copy a build only in what powers to slot but they don't bother learning how and when you should use them) and you have the occasional GWF who refuses to believe you should use WMS to buff sure strike for single target dps xD
If it helps, when I run with well composed teams with DPSers of the likes of @gorillalike or
@wickedduck22#9795 , I barely am able to do half of their DPS. I don't know what experience Bethel has in terms of DPS when compared to top tier DPSers, but from what can tell, he has the same experience as I do.
I'm not sure where Snoo (the best DPS GF there is) would stand from the current enchant changes, given how much the GWFs/CWs benefit from the new enchant changes. The GF doesn't benefit much, if at all from the enchant changes, so I wouldn't be surprised if Snoo's DPS output is compratively lower than before (since all the other DPSers will be able to slaughter everything much faster than his GF can).
Yes, you are missing out on Knight's Challenge, that's pretty much what gives you damage bonuses somewhat comparable to a GWF. In general, Knight's Challenge shines on groups with small groups of meaty targets, so you don't need to run it in places with lots of squishy mobs. It also is a must have on boss fights, otherwise, you're only doing (roughly) half of your single target DPS on bosses.
By the way. drop Griffons on FBI/Spellplague, especially the latter. The cooldown on Griffon's is way to high, and the fact that you have to expend 2/all 3 charges on one target doesn't do it any favors when there's a few meaty targets (FBI) or a bunch of targets (Spellplague).
I could be wrong though, but either way... *begins opening up [Greater Box of Popcorn]*
> Well Pro didn't mean it in mean spirit as I am not sure he has a mean bone in his body. I believe he was just initially surprised that a "tank" which supplies him with ITF and a mark and maybe KV could do a ton of damage. I certainly didn't take it from him that he was being super critical of the GF. However, he is British and therefore a little off.
As for your DD criticism of Damage output, so long as you are doing your #1 job (threat and damage mitigation) and your #2 job (buff with Marks and ITF) no respectable/respected DPS player will care.
BTW, Just ignore that annoying buzzing sound. Someone must have let a gnat in the Barracks.
I am Took.
"Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
And next time, I'll remember to close the door to the Guard Barracks next time, I promise.
GFs are not top dps, it's just a GWFs false propaganda!
Now pass me that popcorn please :S
Oi, @dread4moor, are you sure you didn't mistake the buzzing sound with the sound of a baby's babbling?
Because I quite clearly heard a baby toddler walking in here crying. Somebody needs to be more responsible for their baby!
We can't have this poor little toddle injure themselves from mental exertion, because all that would do is have the baby cause a tantrum. And nobody likes it when a baby causes a ruckus!
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... Oh ... wait... you were sure it was a fly buzzing in here? Shame. I guess I need to call the pest control before it lands on our popcorn.
Speaking of the popcorn, I made the popcorn unsalted.
I reasoned we wouldn't need any butter or salt when we would have delicious tears as a gluten free substitute.
A proud member of "mythical horde of DPS GFs"
1). Is SW more dps or tank based?
2). Yes. I am panzer!
3). Get ACT if you want to celebrate your epeen.
4). Horniness will not stand between me and what I believe - "MM"