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So...stealadin is kind of a bust.....(not so much anymore)

rubytruerubytrue Member Posts: 556 Arc User
edited July 2017 in The Citadel
Not that it doesn't work; it just doesn't provide enough extra heal to make any real difference in DPS. And in testing, in fact, the lag it creates for other players even seems to decrease DPS for you overall.

We (veywill and I and a couple of other folks) ran Valindra's Tower twice; once with lifesteal on "high" and once with more "defense" and lifesteal on "low;" the run with the highest DPS for the potential "stealadin" was the run with less actual lifesteal and more defense.

It is a fun idea, the data just didn't support the hypothesis.
Post edited by rubytrue on

Comments

  • dread4moordread4moor Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,145 Arc User
    Kudos for trying something original.
    I don't play pally, but read about this Stealadin with interest.
    Keep testing and trying out new things. Proper respect given for not being cookie-cutter.
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    I am Took.
    "Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
  • rubytruerubytrue Member Posts: 556 Arc User
    Here is the first run (sorry about the low video quality)



  • rubytruerubytrue Member Posts: 556 Arc User
    And here is the second run (once again, sorry about the low video quality).



  • rubytruerubytrue Member Posts: 556 Arc User
    So with the ninja changes (read: nerf) to DevOPs recently, it looks like the Stealadin is back in business....
  • junius#6073 junius Member Posts: 24 Arc User
    what the ninja changes to DevOp's?
  • veywiil#8685 veywiil Member Posts: 208 Arc User
    The ninja nerf is documented in my guide, they changed Healing Warmth from 5% proc rate to 3%. It changes things but not a ton. Although it does make life steal more viable.
    I'm a theorycrafter, that means I can answer fairly deep questions with scientific theory, mathematical proof, and some guessing. Ask me stuff!
  • rubytruerubytrue Member Posts: 556 Arc User
    I think veywiil tested it out to find that it is a two tiered nerf: 1) HW now has a 5 ally cap (vs unlimited before) and, 2) like he mentioned, a 40% haircut to the proc rate. (It actually changes quite a few things since you now have to swap out defense for lifesteal which makes you a bit more squishy.)

    I understand why they did it: We were lagging out the servers. Not thrilled about it (the nerf), but I still put up decent numbers (not like I used to, however).
  • majorcharvenakmajorcharvenak Member Posts: 783 Arc User
    I was wondering why I didn't seem to burn as brightly these days. Wait a sec @rubytrue, a 5 ally cap so no companions or does it not matter which flavor? And does it still effect five targets surrounding those 5 allies (so 25 targets instead of unlimited)? If so, that is a HARSH nerf. It would be nice to know the extent of the damage and be able to adjust accordingly - reducing the proc rate is an annoyance, reducing the number of targets affected is downright BRUTAL. :/ If sever performance was the issue, thats fine as I appreciate playing the game without issue rather than watching numbers fly. However, The lag (even with bond off) and disconnects for me have been even worse than they were before the change. The fact that it was done without so much as a heads up is pretty disheartening as the devs been getting a lot better with communicating changes to the playerbase. My two cents.
    ~Shia~

    House Miliskeera in exile (NW)
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    Shizlee Miliskeera, Lvl 70 DC - Divine Oracle (Right.)/Anoited Champion (Faith.)
    Finithey Miliskeera, Lvl 70 HR - Stormwarden (Combat)/Pathfinder (Trapper)
    Maya Sik-Miliskeera, Lvl 70 CW - Spellstorm
    Irae Sik-Miliskeera, Lvl 70 TR - Master Inflitrator

    Member - Houseclan t'Charvon (STO)
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  • veywiil#8685 veywiil Member Posts: 208 Arc User
    rubytrue said:

    I think veywiil tested it out to find that it is a two tiered nerf: 1) HW now has a 5 ally cap (vs unlimited before) and, 2) like he mentioned, a 40% haircut to the proc rate. (It actually changes quite a few things since you now have to swap out defense for lifesteal which makes you a bit more squishy.)

    I understand why they did it: We were lagging out the servers. Not thrilled about it (the nerf), but I still put up decent numbers (not like I used to, however).

    This is incorrect.

    BoV was nerfed to a 5 cap maximum, NOT HW. I will be making a detailed post later, but suffice to say I am in favor of this nerf. We were overpowered in what we could do before, and in tiamat we could just freeze the game straight up with 1 burnadin. This wasn't OK, and I'm glad they nerfed the BoV cap. They should have said something in the patch notes, but they didn't, they almost never do. This changes a few things for us, which I will outline later. Do NOT panic the Burnadin is more than viable. The 40% cut on HW is severe, but then again it was doing a massive amount of flat damage, in the hundreds of millions sometimes.

    I am at this time not advocating lifesteal. It can work, and it can help bring DPS up. However what you are giving up for those stat points, especially defense, is simply too great at this time. Like I said hold out and wait for a post later on from me detailing exactly what this means and changes for the burnadin specifically.
    I'm a theorycrafter, that means I can answer fairly deep questions with scientific theory, mathematical proof, and some guessing. Ask me stuff!
  • rubytruerubytrue Member Posts: 556 Arc User
    Thanks for the clarification on the cap being BoV and not HW. I'm still back on the Stealadin bandwagon because I'm a firm believer in dead mobs being the best defense. The reality is that Stealadins can still pretty much facetank anything outside of FBI and perhaps Master Spell Plague simply because you are able to outheal incoming damage. High defense on a Burnadin, under the new parameters, really wasn't effective for me (that's just my experience--other people might have different outcomes) because I wasn't healing myself fast enough through Bond/Vow to take multiple hits from mobs. As a stealadin, I am doing more damage (considerably) than my enemies so I am constantly getting instantly healed. My HP bar bounces a *lot* more than it used to, but it is literally filled in, sometimes, an instance--like faster than a blink of an eye. Due to Prism, you are also healing your teammates the same amount as you are being healed so you are keeping them topped off as well.

    One other ninja change (not sure if it is a nerf, per se) is that DevOPs are now being queued as tanks rather than healers, it seems. It looks like it varies from dungeon to dungeon, but don't be surprised if you get in a PUG and there are no other Pallys or GFs in the group and everyone is looking at you to tank. There doesn't seem to be any rhyme or reason to que process regarding this; sometimes I get queued as the Tanks, sometimes the Healer....
  • trzebiat#2067 trzebiat Member Posts: 372 Arc User
    rubytrue said:

    One other ninja change (not sure if it is a nerf, per se) is that DevOPs are now being queued as tanks rather than healers, it seems. It looks like it varies from dungeon to dungeon, but don't be surprised if you get in a PUG and there are no other Pallys or GFs in the group and everyone is looking at you to tank. There doesn't seem to be any rhyme or reason to que process regarding this; sometimes I get queued as the Tanks, sometimes the Healer....

    Maybe it's caused by the delay and game doesn't update the loadout you're on after switching? Same as when changing gear it takes some time for game to show correct IL and update Everfrost Resistance (not relevant anymore), or when you boost IL just to enter and then switch to lower gear so you're below requirements game doesn't even update it and allows to re-queue again after the run.
  • rubytruerubytrue Member Posts: 556 Arc User

    rubytrue said:

    One other ninja change (not sure if it is a nerf, per se) is that DevOPs are now being queued as tanks rather than healers, it seems. It looks like it varies from dungeon to dungeon, but don't be surprised if you get in a PUG and there are no other Pallys or GFs in the group and everyone is looking at you to tank. There doesn't seem to be any rhyme or reason to que process regarding this; sometimes I get queued as the Tanks, sometimes the Healer....

    Maybe it's caused by the delay and game doesn't update the loadout you're on after switching? Same as when changing gear it takes some time for game to show correct IL and update Everfrost Resistance (not relevant anymore), or when you boost IL just to enter and then switch to lower gear so you're below requirements game doesn't even update it and allows to re-queue again after the run.
    That might be what is causing the "glitch." I typically run a ProtOP solo, but I switch to DevOP right before I queue.
  • mcfly#2257 mcfly Member Posts: 20 Arc User
    Hi,
    do you plan to change your weapon enchant when you play stealadin? If I'm not wrong after the nerv your stealadin should also do less damage than before.
    Have you ever thought about transfering the stealadin idea to a prot build? Do you think it would make sense?
  • rubytruerubytrue Member Posts: 556 Arc User
    > @mcfly#2257 said:
    > Hi,
    > do you plan to change your weapon enchant when you play stealadin? If I'm not wrong after the nerv your stealadin should also do less damage than before.
    > Have you ever thought about transfering the stealadin idea to a prot build? Do you think it would make sense?

    > @mcfly#2257 said:
    > Hi,
    > do you plan to change your weapon enchant when you play stealadin? If I'm not wrong after the nerv your stealadin should also do less damage than before.
    > Have you ever thought about transfering the stealadin idea to a prot build? Do you think it would make sense?

    Yeah, in large groups it does quite a bit less damage...that said, it still does a lot of damage. I currently run a Trans Bilethorn. It isn't BIS, but I like how it looks with my Armor Enchant (Trans Shadowclad) and the secondary damage and tertiary damage splash helps to proc lifesteal. Personally, I think a Trans Plaguefire will be BIS for a Stealadin once they get those enchants fixed.
  • mcfly#2257 mcfly Member Posts: 20 Arc User
    Thx for the answer. I don't want to beat a dead horse but your stealadin damage should have dropped by the same margin like the burnadin you played since you changed the build. So I don't get it why the stealadin is now better. Maybe you can explain it.
  • veywiil#8685 veywiil Member Posts: 208 Arc User
    Stealadins work better when Burnadin DPS decreases by less procs of HW/BG. Lifesteal procs prism more which means more HW/BG, prism has a cooldown, and so do BG/HW. We used to reach the BG/HW cap easily from the BoV not being capped. Now that it is capped we will try to get prism to proc a little more, causing more heals, thus proccing BG/HW more. That's literally the whole thought process. The rest should be explained in the Burnadin guide.
    I'm a theorycrafter, that means I can answer fairly deep questions with scientific theory, mathematical proof, and some guessing. Ask me stuff!
  • mcfly#2257 mcfly Member Posts: 20 Arc User
    Hi verywiil,
    thx for the answer. Do you will change something due to the recent hidden nerv?

    greetings
  • majorcharvenakmajorcharvenak Member Posts: 783 Arc User
    @veywiil and @rubytrue, I was so concerned about the nerf to our damage output I almost forgot to ask, does the 5 ally limit on Bond of Virtue also include summoned companions against that cap or are they free riders? I know it shouldn't be a problem on the healing side, as long as the team is hitting a vowed target and with OS heals, call and sanctuary but I don't feel too easy about a companion receiving heals meant for another player if they're not part of the bond. Just curious.
    ~Shia~

    House Miliskeera in exile (NW)
    Sereska Miliskeera, Lvl 70 OP - Devotion (Just.)/Protection (Just.)
    Shizlee Miliskeera, Lvl 70 DC - Divine Oracle (Right.)/Anoited Champion (Faith.)
    Finithey Miliskeera, Lvl 70 HR - Stormwarden (Combat)/Pathfinder (Trapper)
    Maya Sik-Miliskeera, Lvl 70 CW - Spellstorm
    Irae Sik-Miliskeera, Lvl 70 TR - Master Inflitrator

    Member - Houseclan t'Charvon (STO)
    Shiarrael e'Tal'Aura t'Charvon, LvL 60, Rom Sci
    S'aana ir'Virinat t'Charvon, Lvl 60, Rom Eng
    T'Lyra, LvL 60, Fed, Vul Sci
    Ta'el, Lvl 60, Rom Tac
  • rubytruerubytrue Member Posts: 556 Arc User
    You'll have to ask veywiil for confirmation, but I believe that the companions (yours and others) count toward the five ally limit.
  • majorcharvenakmajorcharvenak Member Posts: 783 Arc User
    Oh boy...Can't wait to tell folks they'll have to turn off their companions and go to augments during a dungeon run or no healing for them. That surely would not go over well. One thing of note is, I did stop by WoD last night with Bond on and it looks as if its covering just the players vice my summoned companion. If Jeze (or if anyone else) can confirm, I'll be slightly relieved though I suspects that means our HW damage is limited to those 20 targets (5 per player) vice 45 (5 per player - max 4 and all companions).
    ~Shia~

    House Miliskeera in exile (NW)
    Sereska Miliskeera, Lvl 70 OP - Devotion (Just.)/Protection (Just.)
    Shizlee Miliskeera, Lvl 70 DC - Divine Oracle (Right.)/Anoited Champion (Faith.)
    Finithey Miliskeera, Lvl 70 HR - Stormwarden (Combat)/Pathfinder (Trapper)
    Maya Sik-Miliskeera, Lvl 70 CW - Spellstorm
    Irae Sik-Miliskeera, Lvl 70 TR - Master Inflitrator

    Member - Houseclan t'Charvon (STO)
    Shiarrael e'Tal'Aura t'Charvon, LvL 60, Rom Sci
    S'aana ir'Virinat t'Charvon, Lvl 60, Rom Eng
    T'Lyra, LvL 60, Fed, Vul Sci
    Ta'el, Lvl 60, Rom Tac
  • emilemoemilemo Member Posts: 1,718 Arc User
    From the moment the pally was introduced I immediately felt this was the class with zero need for lifesteal far as im concerned. To this day i run my main protop with 0% lifesteal. Imo the class's strengths lie elsewhere.
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  • oggycz#5356 oggycz Member Posts: 182 Arc User
    So, I tried little change yesterday. I changed some boons to get some lifesteal. Now I have 9,3% chance of lifesteal only from boons. I ran CN with combat tracker on. Combat tracker told me, I did only 11 lifesteals during whole CN. So, does lifesteal really work for Devo pally? I think with 9% lifesteal I have to do more than 11 ticks. And second interesting thing, I had almost same number of BG and HW ticks, like before nerf. Is nerf real? Or BG is nerfed to 3% too?
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  • hirogardehirogarde Member Posts: 122 Arc User

    So, I tried little change yesterday. I changed some boons to get some lifesteal. Now I have 9,3% chance of lifesteal only from boons. I ran CN with combat tracker on. Combat tracker told me, I did only 11 lifesteals during whole CN. So, does lifesteal really work for Devo pally? I think with 9% lifesteal I have to do more than 11 ticks. And second interesting thing, I had almost same number of BG and HW ticks, like before nerf. Is nerf real? Or BG is nerfed to 3% too?

    It's possible that heals have a priority list. If you're using Vow and/or Oath Strike, it's likely that those heals will top you off before Lifesteal was needed. Try grabbing a bunch of mobs and ONLY use Radiant Strike to see if your Lifesteal count changes.
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