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Why the "DEVELOPER STREAM: STATE OF THE GAME [3/7]" - Was SOO far off the Mark.
ayroux
Member Posts: 4,271 Arc User
@strumslinger
@mimicking#6533
@nitocris83
First, thanks for taking the time yesterday to give us updates and comments about the game. It was also refreshing to see some truth explained behind the Foundry. So thanks for that.
I want to write about two issues that yesterday's stream felt VERY far from the "mark". If you look at the feedback thread on this the LARGE majority of the comments and responses revolved around two topics: 1) PVP and 2) Foundry.
Yesterday, however, not much was said about these two issues - that are the two biggest issues in this game. First, lets start with Foundry.
@mimicking#6533 mentioned datamining Foundry to see if players are actually using this or not. This is a fallacy. This wont show you who WOULD use this if resources were put into this. To give a very black and white example. That would be like having a broken down car in your garage, and then having a sign up sheet for anyone who wanted to drive it. Come back 2 weeks later and lo and behold! NOBODY signed up to drive it! Well I think the dilemma is obvious. IT DOESNT WORK SO NOBODY WANTS TO USE IT ATM. Sorry for the caps, but it was frustrating listening to that yesterday. OFCOURSE people dont use it right now. This doesnt mean if you didnt fix up that car, people wouldnt drive it though. I get it, the guy who made the Foundry is off making big bucks at Amazon. This makes sense. I cant imagine there isnt SOME developer at Cryptic who could figure out how to spice up Foundry.
Heck, one very easy solution that WOULD get people using Foundry more? "Design a Map/Dungeon" contests. Create a contest in which PVE players can create and submit a dungeon (I have seen a handful of AMAZING dungeons) and then also offer a "create a PVP map" (again I have seen a few). Now... If these cant be inserted into the GAME, at the very least you can offer cool prizes and it gets the community using Foundry more with THEN you can offer to your bosses as a reason to invest more into foundry because... people are using it! If the goal is to be sincere in an effort to "prove" Foundry's worth, this is the avenue you should go, not "looking at your broken down car and saying nobody drives it therefore its not worth resources".
Point 2) PVP. This was frustrating to say the least. I get it, your hands are tied in this area. I heard a few points regarding PVP.
1) A duel arena.
2) "loadouts".
3) New maps have to be approved by WOTC? For PVP? I wasnt sure this comment...
First, on a duel arena. This may have been a valuable thing back in module 2 days. But not today. People ALREADY dont want to PVP because of gear imbalance. People WONT be using this feature very often and if anything - itll actually take AWAY from people actually playing domination. This personally feels like a step BACKWARDS not forwards. Whatever "map" you get approval to use from WOTC for this, I would take this, and RATHER than make a 1v1 duel arena. I would turn this into a 3v3 Death Match arena instead. This 3v3 deathmatch was already being worked on at ONE point (I played it on the PTR twice) and was a HUGE improvement. A new "duel" arena will do NOTHING for PVP and is a waste of time and resources.
Same with player "loadouts". This does NOTHING to address the gear imbalance in PVP. The problem isnt that people cant swap to PVP builds with the click of a button the PROBLEM is that because of stat inflation over the modules, an army of average players cant kill 1 "BIS Player". My only HOPE and PRAY with loadouts is that you will start realizing that boons+mount bonuses+insignias etc are RUINING PVP and should be REMOVED from PVP. You can use "loadouts" as a way to do this in that now players can have a loadout for PVP where ONLY THINGS THAT IMPACT ITEM LEVEL WORK TOWARDS PVP.
New Maps? Im not quite sure why we cant get new domination maps. You have to get approval first? Again, offer a Foundry Event. Have the PVPers MAKE maps for you, take the top 3 maps, get "approval" from WOTC and then insert them into the game. You mentioned DEVs have been pulled for a NEW game... Let the players help develop content for you.
I had to write this, because frankly I am at the end of the rope with NW. I have supported this game on so many levels - including financially, and frankly this latest DEV Stream, while I appreciated it, felt like a slap in the face ignoring the MAJOR issues this game has and the requests of the players. Whenever I heard "we listen to you guys" it made me want to vomit because the overwhelming "feedback" from the "PVP Community" wasnt addressed and was largely ignored...
Please consider what I have written here... For the sake of this game.
@mimicking#6533
@nitocris83
First, thanks for taking the time yesterday to give us updates and comments about the game. It was also refreshing to see some truth explained behind the Foundry. So thanks for that.
I want to write about two issues that yesterday's stream felt VERY far from the "mark". If you look at the feedback thread on this the LARGE majority of the comments and responses revolved around two topics: 1) PVP and 2) Foundry.
Yesterday, however, not much was said about these two issues - that are the two biggest issues in this game. First, lets start with Foundry.
@mimicking#6533 mentioned datamining Foundry to see if players are actually using this or not. This is a fallacy. This wont show you who WOULD use this if resources were put into this. To give a very black and white example. That would be like having a broken down car in your garage, and then having a sign up sheet for anyone who wanted to drive it. Come back 2 weeks later and lo and behold! NOBODY signed up to drive it! Well I think the dilemma is obvious. IT DOESNT WORK SO NOBODY WANTS TO USE IT ATM. Sorry for the caps, but it was frustrating listening to that yesterday. OFCOURSE people dont use it right now. This doesnt mean if you didnt fix up that car, people wouldnt drive it though. I get it, the guy who made the Foundry is off making big bucks at Amazon. This makes sense. I cant imagine there isnt SOME developer at Cryptic who could figure out how to spice up Foundry.
Heck, one very easy solution that WOULD get people using Foundry more? "Design a Map/Dungeon" contests. Create a contest in which PVE players can create and submit a dungeon (I have seen a handful of AMAZING dungeons) and then also offer a "create a PVP map" (again I have seen a few). Now... If these cant be inserted into the GAME, at the very least you can offer cool prizes and it gets the community using Foundry more with THEN you can offer to your bosses as a reason to invest more into foundry because... people are using it! If the goal is to be sincere in an effort to "prove" Foundry's worth, this is the avenue you should go, not "looking at your broken down car and saying nobody drives it therefore its not worth resources".
Point 2) PVP. This was frustrating to say the least. I get it, your hands are tied in this area. I heard a few points regarding PVP.
1) A duel arena.
2) "loadouts".
3) New maps have to be approved by WOTC? For PVP? I wasnt sure this comment...
First, on a duel arena. This may have been a valuable thing back in module 2 days. But not today. People ALREADY dont want to PVP because of gear imbalance. People WONT be using this feature very often and if anything - itll actually take AWAY from people actually playing domination. This personally feels like a step BACKWARDS not forwards. Whatever "map" you get approval to use from WOTC for this, I would take this, and RATHER than make a 1v1 duel arena. I would turn this into a 3v3 Death Match arena instead. This 3v3 deathmatch was already being worked on at ONE point (I played it on the PTR twice) and was a HUGE improvement. A new "duel" arena will do NOTHING for PVP and is a waste of time and resources.
Same with player "loadouts". This does NOTHING to address the gear imbalance in PVP. The problem isnt that people cant swap to PVP builds with the click of a button the PROBLEM is that because of stat inflation over the modules, an army of average players cant kill 1 "BIS Player". My only HOPE and PRAY with loadouts is that you will start realizing that boons+mount bonuses+insignias etc are RUINING PVP and should be REMOVED from PVP. You can use "loadouts" as a way to do this in that now players can have a loadout for PVP where ONLY THINGS THAT IMPACT ITEM LEVEL WORK TOWARDS PVP.
New Maps? Im not quite sure why we cant get new domination maps. You have to get approval first? Again, offer a Foundry Event. Have the PVPers MAKE maps for you, take the top 3 maps, get "approval" from WOTC and then insert them into the game. You mentioned DEVs have been pulled for a NEW game... Let the players help develop content for you.
I had to write this, because frankly I am at the end of the rope with NW. I have supported this game on so many levels - including financially, and frankly this latest DEV Stream, while I appreciated it, felt like a slap in the face ignoring the MAJOR issues this game has and the requests of the players. Whenever I heard "we listen to you guys" it made me want to vomit because the overwhelming "feedback" from the "PVP Community" wasnt addressed and was largely ignored...
Please consider what I have written here... For the sake of this game.
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Comments
Who asked for dual arenas?!?!
Loadouts are GOOD. But wont help with the major issues in PvP. It will be nice to have PvP build but there are so many other issues.
▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ ▇ █ Gankdalf The Icehole █ ▇ ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
BIG PICTURE with PvP from the dev standpoint is and has always been this:
PVP is an untapped Gold mine. The low interest and player population is because it has been neglected. This became a self-fulfilling prophecy of sorts. But the underlying pvp combat platform is so good. Neverwinter PVP has so much potential. PWE seems to have no clue how much more willing players are to invest real money and play time to better kill and defeat other players than PVE mobs? The salt and rivalry factor is real. Opportunity missed.
I have no doubt that if PWE had invested in attracting players to and cared for PVP long ago, the player population and revenue would easily, easily be triple what it is right now.
Sopi SW Youtube channel pvp brickabrack
Which makes sense from a DEV standpoint, kinda... The problem is, like you stated. The REASON less people PVP is because they havnt put any real resources to PVP in years. Which then leads people who PVP to quit, which then leads you to less people doing it. "Self Fulfilling Prophecy" as you said...
Just like Foundry. Nobody uses it TODAY, because its so neglected. I remember when the game first came out Foundry and PVP were the two largest things going for this game. How many streamers did I watch doing PVP, CN runs, and creating Foundry? Tons...
Today we have:
- no PVP
- no Foundry
- no "EPIC" Dungeons.
You have to look back at what WORKED and was NEGLECTED as to where they should spend resources. Not what people are "currently" playing. All youll do is see people "currently" doing all the stuff you JUST developed... Because it got attention/resources and because its the only thing to do right now. That doesnt mean thats what players want, it means thats all youve given them to do.
EDIT: Quoting a guild mate here because I thought this summed up this entire thing so well:
"If Devs invested in PvP right since Mod1 is would be a hugely popular rich game"
Many of my idea's I've recently reposted in new thread so have a look, comment, or give a thumbs up/down:
http://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter/#/discussion/1229014/pvp-2b-challenging-fun-4all
Generally however I thought the STREAM had some very good news and generally happy with how the game is developing... Despite us wanting to see a better solution for PvP longer term. I also don't think they meant to imply Foundry was not something they were planning to improve, just that give the current schedule and other focus area's, at this time they choose Guild's and Masterwork needing an update.
I admit Masterwork was greatly well utilized and I wish it only extended available options rather than limit you without it. Allow those with Master or Legendary professions or various higher quality tools to being given new projects as well. Perhaps extend 135 Personalized Neck, Rings, and Belts to professions to include Talisman, Swordknot, and Icon for other professions. Also make more of the Rear Armor or Gear that is Rare quality or higher to be far more unique for each level to also offer many viable transmute options for various classes.
While I like that Masterwork options for professions are coming in 11b, I'd also wish they'd extend regular professional options.
1. We neglected to invest in or screwed up (dungeons) the most interesting parts of the a game that have the most potential appeal and longetivity.
2. We instead invested in the most monotonous aspect standard pve mod grind because the greatest number of players were doing that (Note: that all players have to grind pve for advancement doesn't mean necessarily they want to).
3. Hmm most of the players left. Guess we will pull resources from Neverwinter and go work on a new game.
Sopi SW Youtube channel pvp brickabrack
"3. Hmm most of the players left. Guess we will pull resources from Neverwinter and go work on a new game. "
Sadly, this is probably true.
You could almost see Foss checking his watch and thinking "how much more time/energy do we have to waste on this dead stick?"
I hope they will sell the WotC license and NWO to another gamehouse who are interested in a Foundry and PvP focus. That's about the only chance I see for an enthusiastic development team.
If not, Foundry is dead, PVP festers and PvE dies a slow death of attrition over the next 1.5 mods.
Edit PvE/pvp
I am Took.
"Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
Players (especially with alts) have a ton of work completing campaigns, earning boons, getting RP for gear and feeding the guild mimic. The Foundry is in no way tied to progression (thanks, bots), so players that would spend time enjoying UGC feel pressure not to. New players aren't directed to the foundry in any meaningful way. My suggestion is to rework the foundry to allow for quests themed to specific modules that then drop, with reasonable checks and balances, campaign currency (or stronghold vouchers for guild themed foundries). Make it so that players can experience non-Cryptic content when they want to without sacrificing character progression during those hours.
Some companies go so far as to pay modders. We're just asking for you to make an investment in the UGC system so that your passionate players feel the reward of having the content they create actually played and enjoyed. It isn't just gear. My mains have near-BiS PVE gear. I went and purchased the blue Stronghold PVP gear and waded back into PVP during the last solo queue event. The result was decidedly mixed.
I run a smaller guild focused on helping newer players. We don't have a level 20 guild hall with the accompanying boons. Those alone make a huge difference. We do have access to an advanced market thanks to our alliance and I was able to get some wards to reduce the impact of AP drain. Woe those that don't have that access.
Skill imbalance is also huge. I have significant PVP experience from mod 5 and friends that excel at PVP. I still struggled with skill selection and timing at first. New players that just queue for PVP and use skills that seem good based on the tooltips will have no clue why they are entirely ineffective in PVP.
Loadouts are not just for PVP. They're highly convenient for PVE. Agreed, they don't address core issues of PVP, but I don't believe they are intended to.
Sci-fi author: The Gods We Make, The Gods We Seek, and Ji-min
@strumslinger
@mimicking#6533
@nitocris83
It was obvious from the Lead designer stream post and chat that there is a passionate base for PvP.
Yes true that: "If Devs invested in PvP right since Mod1 is would be a hugely popular rich game"
Yes the player population has dwindled and been driven away by a series of bad focus decisions over 10 mods.
Is all lost? Is it too late? Nope. Nope. Nope.
The original beta developers did an amazing job and the underlying combat platform engine is really SO very good and unrivaled by any game in some ways. Why is there such a passionate base for pvp? Because serious gamers (who are the biggest spenders) recognize the quality, uniqueness of the combat platform and hate to see it's potential wasted.
At this late game stage, here is what PWE should do.
Yes, drastic:
Develop and Release Neverwinter PvP as a standalone game.
Advertise and launch it like any other game.
1. Keep the fantastic combat engine and classes.
2. Balance it. Remove all gear score differences.
3. Make revenue from fashion and skins like other pvp games.
Sopi SW Youtube channel pvp brickabrack
Tonight - 3 characters
First one, no problems, 7 or 8 digs, 3 arcane focus
Second one 11 digs before I hit my first, another one 3 or 4 digs later
Third one 11 digs none found
How are we supposed to get 85x3 at this sort of drop rate, weapons will be obsolete before I can get them refined, at least if the foci were account bound I might get one done.
I have a unique position in knowing this because I was part of a team that Andy had asked to help "squash bugs" called the "Bounty Hunters" we compiled lists of game breaking bugs and even videos/step by step on how to replicate it and it would take MONTHS before it even popped up to be fixed... It was a joke. We all lost desire to do this because of the insane turn around on actually fixing bugs...
Point being... It constantly feels the player base is being ignored. The news yesterday wasnt BAD news, it just wants what the players asked for. Yup. Exactly. If they were to invest resources on UGC system (Foundry) it will pay back a multiple of the resources invested. The players have LONG been the "untapped" creative power of the game. Some of the old school Foundry stuff I played blew me away. I played a dungeon that was better than ANY I played made my DEVs. I went into a PVP map that was 10x as good as the current ones we have... Why havnt those been used? I cant even fathom why... Skills yes, but some of that CAN be taught. I would expect that a new player vs a veteran would lose. The PROBLEM we have now is, the new player cant pinpoint as to why they lost because they die in 2 hits. I cant tell you how many times (on my GWF) I run to mid at the beginning of a match, and literally 2 shot at will an enemy. Now, they were both crits, but its still ridiculous when they have no tenacity, no gear, and I can literally LOOK at them and kill them...
The skill gap will always be there. You cant "fix" that with development. But they CAN adjust the gear gap - so a new player atleast has some TIME to test things against veterans, see what they are doing, and while they will still lose... They get better. Not get 2 shot and then they sit at spawn to get their dailies done for AD.
Back in Module 0 (pre-module) days, PVP was a much different environment. Going 2v1 and winning was rather hard. The only "self healing" most people had was Regen which was capped in its HPS (Heal ticks). So surviving against people was HARD when outnumbered. At this moment, with all the boons, insignias, items etc, we have SO many sources of out healing, thats why its NOT hard to 2v1 or 3v1 or 4v1 even because my GWF can pump out damage and out heal their damage.
This is why the BEST thing that can be done for PVP is to strip away all that stuff. Boons, mount bonuses, insignias, etc. This would remove that "gear gap" and make it so a new player - would still lose - but not get 2 shot and actually have a fighting chance. Agreed. My FEAR is that they will look at "Loadouts and the new duel system" and feel like they gave the PVPers a "bone" to chew on.
My point here, is NEITHER of those are what we asked for...
Hey, here is an idea... Because its already APPROVED by WOTC.
Take the current Black Ice Domination areas and make them Domination MAPS to que for. Remove BID from the game, and allow people to QUe into it and reap the black ice after the match (the motherload).
Thats two new maps.
Then during these "loadouts" if ALL they did was make it so anything that doesnt impact your item level - didnt impact you in PVP. That would be an over night success and you would see the PVP population TRIPLE overnight. Because now ALLLLL that stuff I mentioned: Boons, mount bonuses, insignias, overloads, etc. All that stuff that DOESNT count towards Item Level - wouldnt be in PVP.
PVP would still be imbalanced. Classes will always be imbalanced, but newer players would have more of a chance.
But yes, the gear score differences are the #1 issue in PVP. Remove that and PVP will be healthy again.
EASY money can be made off fashion and skins for PVP - just like TONS of other games do. You dont have to sell RP to make money, sell COOL transmutes that can ONLY be bought via Cash.
BTW - this is one reason why a while ago I suggested removing the ZAX so the zen store could only be accessed via IRL cash. A few things would have to be changed liek Coal Wards, but bottom line is game would be better IMO if they removed ZAX and stopped trying to sell RP to players.
Thanks very much for your well thought out feedback. It's this kind of dialogue that we at Cryptic that we hope for, albeit we are striving towards happier comments.
Let's tackle the WotC issue first. We only need approval on any I.P. related materials. This doesn't usually cover things like a basic instanced map unless it touches strongly on the I.P. The planes instances of the wizards in M11, for instance. If we were to build an I.P. centric map, that would need approval.
Not sure how this issue got glommed on to PvP.
Regarding Foundry, due to time constraints and me trying to get as many questions in, I did not follow through on my thoughts on data mining. Mea Culpa. We are not just looking at the last 6 months or year, we are looking at data all the way back, looking at good times as well as broken and fallow. It's not just looking at a broken car, I'm looking at the car since I bought it.
As one of the founders of Foundry, my feelings for it are strong and quite sentimental. As a lead designer of a game I've " inherited" there are a lot of things that have not been loved ( I'll just put it that way) for too long. Sad, very sad, but a sad reality.
Now, I have a budget each module based upon time and resources (dev's). Neither budget is big compared to other companies, so we have to spend smart. A huge part of that smart to me is fixing things and rebalancing things. I think my record stands true on the fact that we've been striving to do this. Maybe not as fast or as focused as many of you would want, but progress is being made. Before I can spend any budget on Foundry, which as you mentioned is like a broken car, I have to get a diagnostic. It's not just opening the hood and changing the plugs and giving it new gas. Anyone who has rebuilt a car knows that as soon as that hood it open you start finding all the things broken, or are pleasantly surprised at some discoveries.
That is what data mining means for Foundry. I'd love to get Foundry back up and running in a really good way, but I have to first see how broken it is, and how many people historically played it- and- and this is important- remember that it can't be used on consoles. One thing we are, even as I type- working on is a better and clearer way to get foundry publishing quicker and more continually.
Now let's talk PvP. Yeah, it's hard for anyone to beat Black Lotus. It is a tremendous challenge to build characters that increase in power via various channels that are designed to fight monsters, to also be uber balanced to fight players. This has been true since I built Gauntlgrym and the live PvP areas in Icewind Pass and Dwarven valley. It's only gotten harder as we progress in the game. We are continually working on player power fixes and tuning that will impact but not fully fix the whole thing. One of the ways we do that here at Cryptic is by duelling each other. Mano -Y- Dwarfo is a way we dev's actually test powers and builds against each other. On top of that, it's actually fun. Having loadouts where we can also change out powers and gear is quite helpful, and facile. Don't think of it as taking away from PvP, think of it as training.
When I mentioned that this could become a thing for strongholds, it was just that, a mention of it. We like sharing out ideas and thoughts of how things can be made.
You also mentioned 3v3 PvP- It is something that we've been looking back towards as well- thanks for the bump on that.
Okay, so in closing,Thanks again for your well thought out posting. I hope that even if I haven't fully answered your questions, I have addressed each point. I am sorry that your hearing me speak of the state of the game and some of the things we are doing in the future, although it may not include PvP has made you feel ill.
That being said, we are continuing to work towards polishing the game and providing great stories and content for you to adventure in.
Regards,
Thomas Foss
aka Mimic King
Any of my comments not posted in orange are based on my own personal opinion and not official.
Any messages written in orange are official moderation messages. Signature images are now fixed!
That was a very reasonable response to ayroux. I understand well having a lack of time and resources, and things are getting done much faster than say Mod 4-7 era. I am sure you are doing the best you can. Still feel vague or unclear clear communication about PvP and missing answers for basic repeated questions. Such as:
Why not make the PvP solo queue permanent?
PvP solo queue was twice added (to "collect data") and twice removed.
Everyone liked the solo queue! Life was better. Matches popped. More people played.
Is NCL event ever coming back?
People really liked the NCL event. More people played.
If new domination maps are not an IP issue then why not make a new one?
At least if we are going to fight for circles we could have a little more variety of circles.
Sopi SW Youtube channel pvp brickabrack
I agree. Duals is for training. But there is nothing to train for.. Thats the whole problem in this game right now. Nothing in PvP is balanced because the balance problems now comes from the boons, mount insignias, gear and tenacity. Some players have lots and some none and that creates the HUUGE gap between the players.
What we are asking for now is to strip away some of the big ones that makes you superman. So that the BiS players comes down on a level where a normal player is. Also were begging you to give ALL players that enters domination TENACITY by default. Its the most HAMSTER thing to not give them that and then they get crushed every single time until they can afford the PvP gear.
And its even worse because the matchmaking is putting a BiS team against a new player with green gear and no tenacity. The match is over before it even starts. And were missing a premade Q.
And maps. You have NO excuse for not having any new maps after 11 mods. other than you simple didn't care enough about adding any.
Also time to make it full rainbow teams.
▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ ▇ █ Gankdalf The Icehole █ ▇ ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Just a bare-bones PvP with your character, just as it is.
It can be 5vs5, 3vs3 or 1vs1, but I think a lot of players wold appreciate that, as it would give all players a more even battlefield to duke it out on.
This has probably been suggested countless times before, but it can't hurt to put it out there again...
PVP needs more recruits, but the barrier to become competitive is ultra high. You need to be in a guild that has all those shiny boons, Insignias Bonuses, Rank 10s+, Trans Enhancements and the list goes on. If little Timmy, who hasn't all of that at 2,400 item level but is interested in PVP get himself into an arena, he is going to get crushed. Now he has two choices:
The result of this is that for every PVP player leaving the game, you have 0 replacements coming up. You either have to give players equal competition or an easier access to PVP gear and enchantments. The idea of normalization that has been thrown around even fixes both issues at once.
"Now, I have a budget each module based upon time and resources (dev's). Neither budget is big compared to other companies, so we have to spend smart. A huge part of that smart to me is fixing things and rebalancing things. I think my record stands true on the fact that we've been striving to do this. Maybe not as fast or as focused as many of you would want, but progress is being made. Before I can spend any budget on Foundry, which as you mentioned is like a broken car, I have to get a diagnostic. "
This is a very candid and reasonable statement. I respect that.
But acknowledge the elephant in the room:
One possibility in diagnosing a broken car is that it is not worth fixing (from the company's perspective).
So please take it 1 step further .
Set and announce a deadline for this Foundry diagnostic with a go/no-go decision.
If the foundry cannot be fixed, fine. But you should make that business decision and tell us and not string us along anymore.
Thanks for your candor.
I am Took.
"Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
A player that buys his way to item level 3000 should not automatically defeat a highly skilled, item level 2400 player by mashing {TAB}QER1.
A simple solution might be to scale them down to n% of their PVE values while flagged for PVP, starting with around 10% (so you only get 10% of those abundant self-heals from insignia bonuses, etc).
People already do 1v1 for training purposes by taking opposite factions in IWD and finding a quiet corner (often with a few guildies around to stomp anyone that gets in the way). Not ideal, but already feasible. While a duel mode would be a nice addition, I would rather see the focus on new, larger (3v3, 5v5) battle modes that are actually fun and more balanced.
Sci-fi author: The Gods We Make, The Gods We Seek, and Ji-min
Thanks for this lengthy feedback. I have to say, posts like this are sometimes worth MORE than the live streams. I would strongly encourage more of this, even if it does eat into your day, I can say that one major frustration over the years of NW has been what feels like lack of communication from the DEVs. If possible, even little posts here and there like this one, GREATLY improve morale in the community. I know you are busy and dont have freetime (who does) but this re-kindled a LITTLE Hope in me for this game.
Kudos! Great news. I hope this proves fruitful. If you are doing this (at a cost) for Foundry. Is there any desire to do a similar data mining around PVP? I *THINK* there was a Dev named Spirals who also worked on foundry, its been a year or two since he was there and I forget his real name now, but we chatted a bit via PMs here on the forums. (Damien?) Anyways, he told me something along the lines of PVP, and mentioned the Russian Server, was a large portion of the games revenue.
It stands to reason that if PVP was a large revenue source for this game, and I KNOW it was extremely popular... Then it deserves resources? It seems to me, this would and should be an easier sell to your boss for budget allocation. No?
I appreciate this openness to share. I realize this is very true and budget (dev time) is scarce. You are constantly battling more issues than time allows. I dont know how long you have been the Lead Designer, but this is where I do, with all do respect, have to say I think NW has failed. What players are given each module, and what the player base has been asking for seem to be two different things. My only feedback here, is to encourage you to consider the "roots" of this game. People want to play games like this because they want to get online, and go do "dungeons" with their friends and slay "dragons". Hence the name. It sounds like you are a dinosaur (as am I) in this game. Think back to the days at launch, pre-modules. Back when dungeons were the "end game" and people ran them, not just to earn AD but to gear up, and become competitive.
Fast forward a few years to today. The game is plagued with "RP" and so many demands from a player for "power". He needs artifacts, artifact gear, countless boons, mount bonuses etc. Its gone FAR past logging on, doing Dungeon Delves with some buddies and getting lucky on your Castle Never Ancient Weapon to drop during a CN run and feeling like you are "best in slot" now... That is the experience people want online. Not to get on, unlock a level 1 sword and have to spend RP leveling it up. Its not memorable or epic... Its rather dull. The more you get back to the "core" of what makes D&D, D&D... The more the player base will love you and this game.
Fair enough. Thanks for the comments and this makes complete sense. I hope this proves fruitful because Foundry was a HUGE selling point for this game from day 1. It was supposed to be one of THE BIGGEST things that set this game apart from others... It also potentially is a HUGE resource for you in that you can turn players into DEVs thus giving you MORE resources than you have now
Black Lotus... I havnt heard that name since like 2015... LOL. Kudos on GG. I remember when that first launched! I took the day off work for that. BTW, the MAIN issue with IWP and DV was companions. The feedback was overwhelming here that companions are NOT good for PVP, yet it was pushed out with companions AND same as SH Siege. Anyways I realize it has gotten harder as you progress. You are a victim of your own success in some ways. You create more content that makes player more powerful, but all that ends up doing is creating larger "gear gaps" between players. Its akin to the social/monetary issues we see today. The "middle class" getting squeezed.
The main problem right now is PVP is lack of population. The Gear Gap you have today (meaning the power of a best in slot player vs an average player) is so immense. In a game with a million players, there will be thousands of best in slot players to have a competitive PVP community. NW is not that game. The gear gap allowed for a "healthy" community has to directly scale to its population size.
So the PROBLEM in PVP today is the power difference between a 4,300 player with full SH rank 20 boons, drains, mount bonuses, insignias etc, versus an AVERAGE player. If you recall back in module 0 days... that "stat" difference might have been a few hundred if not definitely less than 1-2 THOUSAND points in difference. Today, that "difference" between average vs BIS players is likely in the tens of thousands range.
The best thing you could do for PVP, is "normalize" PVP so that the "power gap" between even the BEST geared character and the BRAND NEW player is minimal. What is VERY interesting about this, is that WOW recently did this - even with its MILLIONS of players. So when I see a GIANT like WOW do this type of thing, they obviously had subsantial data to make that change and it seems to have worked REALLY well. The feedback I hear from WOW players is amazing. You would think players want "build diversity, choice, itemization to matter" etc but the fact remains... People just want GOOD PVP. Good competitive PVP. I would STRONGLY encourage looking at WOWs system. Here is a quick link to it. If you spend ANY time doing ANYTHING for PVP, this should be #1 on your list: https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/news/19994381
I also made a thread about this here: http://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1228337/lesson-from-wow-what-neverwinter-could-learn-from-the-giant-in-pvp-item-standardization
I had more written but had to delete due to length. Ill end with Cheers! and I hope to see and hear more from you in the future.
First, you are talking aboout 3,000 and 2,400 item level players. The issue isnt a 3k vs 2400 Ilevel player. Its a 4.3k full SH boons, insignia, mount, and drains player against that 3k player.
Do you know how many 3k Players my BIS GWF can take on at once? HINT: I dont... Because even a full team of 5 of them is too easy.
Second, as I just posted above. WOW adopted this model. I am not saying I support 100% of WOWs decisions, I obviously dont play it anymore. But when THE MMO Giant does something, with its millions of SUBSCRIBERS... I would take note. They obviously had reason for doing what they did and removing "character progress".
Third, there are many ways to keep character progress but diminish the impact of things in PVP. WOW has a good model by givign "default stats" but then awarding extra % of points based on item level. This doesnt remove progress but it DOES level the playing field.
Finally, If insignias were the ONLY "issue" in PVP we would be fine with that. The issue isnt JUST insignias (though they do provide a ridiculous amount of healing) the issue is everything else COMBINED with insignias.
ALL the boons, mount bonuses, drains, tenacity gear, insignias, etc.
When you add all those together... Its creates a power divide that the average player cannot cross. It creates a PVP environment in which new players LITERALLY get 2-3 shot with at wills... Its no longer fun.
The "power creep" from all the modules has put it over the top. As @mimicking#6533 eluded to, its nearly impossible to balance PVE and PVP now. This is why.
As a case and point, maybe you remember Avalanche and it multi-proccing in PVP? Making SW not viable at all? Well I do... Because I helped sniff out that bug and we reported step by step instruction to @strumslinger to get rid of it. This is just ONE example of the PVE "inflation" that spills into making PVP IMPOSSIBLE to balance.
@DEVs, do yourself a favor.... Remove all that from PVP. The players want it, and there is CLEAR evidence that its a good call for this game....
At the very LEAST... Create a 2 week long "event" called "Vanilla PVP" or something. let it run (like you did with solo Que) and GET DATA. TEST ME. If I am wrong, so be it... but its not rocket science... I am not a dumb guy, being part of MENSA, I feel like this is very obvious and would be a HUGE benefit to this game... Try it. See what happens.
And while it's obviously impractical to transfer the whole foundry system to consoles, might rotating in/out a fixed number of popular foundry quests be doable for consoles?
Personally, I think the foundry is one of the last things keeping Neverwinter from being just another MMO. Some people might find that last statement laughably sentimental, which begs the question of why they're still playing Neverwinter instead of any other MMO or any other of the large number of genuinely enjoyable games out there.
Clearly the reason we're still playing has little to do with purely objective reasons.
I think the foundry has the potential to be the thing that can give players a way out of all the repetitive campaign stuff that we need to do every day, although I admit it's going to take a lot of study to pull that off without causing people to simply abandon doing campaign stuff. Maybe foundry quests can be allowed to chain to normal quests, or perhaps a slightly edited version of them? That would fix the foundries-can't-have-special-rewards problem, allow players to redo certain quests (for a second chanc to reclaim lore/achievements), allow players to do content quests and even revisit old zones.
The best thing about Neverwinter has always been the combat system, which is why a lot of people are so bummed about the state of PvP. Item level disparity is an oversimplification of the problem, I'd argue that the solo queue events proved that. It's easy to blame item level disparity until you fight more people of your item level and realize you're still screwed because you're fighting something that just shrugs off your disables, completely shuts you down or is just plain superior at capping/defending points because, you know, points > kills.
While it definitely doesn't help that the game somehow thinks that matching 2ks against 4ks (assuming PvP gear) is a good thing, I'd have thought fixing that was more of "what-the-hell-is-wrong-with-the-matchmaking" thing than a class balance thing.
Personally, I stand by my years old "tenacity should do something different for each class" argument. Obviously, class-wide fixes aren't working and it's going to take too long to balance each and every overpowered class/feat/combination/item/etc. one at a time for PvP. So why just make the way the stat works unique for each class? Obviously some classes do not need the extra mitigation and and some would definitely be more balanced if control effects lasted longer on them.
The point is, gear and other factors should matter, but a modest difference in stats (however you measure them accurately) should be surmountable with superior skill. A fairly new toon should be able to make a dent in a well-geared toon, even if it ultimately loses the battle. PVE has the same problem. It's less obvious because nobody advocates for those spiders and orcs, and they reliably show up for battle even if they got stomped last time.
Maxed-out toons melt almost any content (without resorting to exploits). The outcome of PVE content is never, ever in doubt (unless Lag, Demon Prince of Rubber Banding is in a horrid mood). Stuff like eTOS literally melts before a fully-geared (including boons, etc) party. In nDemo runs, I can't even get off a full rotation at each purple portal. eDemo isn't much slower.
The many power sources combine to make a ridiculous power escalation that makes it impossible to create PVE content that's doable by the average player and not laughably easy for the end-game crowd.
I suspect that rethinking how the various sources of power (offensive and defensive) stack/combine would greatly benefit PVE and PVP. Having many sources is cool. Once you have them all, the net is far too great.
Sci-fi author: The Gods We Make, The Gods We Seek, and Ji-min
Point is the "power" those things provide... could EASILY make a 3k character > a 4.3k Itemlevel character.
I think we largely agree "gear and other factors should matter, but a modest difference in stats" and that "A fairly new toon should be able to make a dent in a well-geared toon"
The PROBLEM is, the cant happen when you allow boons. Just the SH Siege boons alone give you SO many stats. Without diving into this issue further, its a fallacy to think "well if we just make it easier to get, more people will have all these stats". The problem becomes the ideal PVE stats are different than PVP stats. So even if everyone had MAX boons and MAX SHs and everything BIS you would still see similar problems in PVP because now you have a "skill" in knowing how to build for PVP (not PVE) that not many know and THEN the skill of playing in PVP.
A little off topic, but the point being, the BEST thing this game can do to breath life into PVP is do what the players have been asking: create "equalized" PVP.
I mean look at the lower lvls. When a lvl 41 gets put into a PVP match, he gets buffed up to 49 to be competitive.
Whats funny is, a lvl 41 with out dated gear has MORE chance against a decked out 49 than a new player at 70 does against a decked out PVPer at 70... Yet the 41 is the guy who gets "buffed" and the new guy gets nothing...
Now, someone might be thinking "what if we just buff new 70s" but this isnt the right path.
I STRONGLY encourage you to read how WOW does their PVP now. Ask youself why they went to that model. They dont make stats worthless, they DO provide small % advantages to BIS players... But it makes DEVs lives SOOOO much easier to balance and creates a "fair" battle ground.
THE solution that will save NW pvp.... Is WOW's itemization approach.
For example, the first rank of a Stronghold structure should only require resources a Stronghold can produce at that point, at the second rank you have to toss in some Gold, and the third rank will need some AD to get the building done.
May be even change the costs for rank 4 and 5 a bit too, but the major benefits will still be for huge guilds/alliances only in the end.
Next points on that list could be:
+ adjusting the AD prices for upgrading companions
+ loyal companion equipment as regular drops
+ bringing back those manuals (with reasonable prices...) to upgrade mounts
Anyway, just tossing in some ideas to level the playing-field across the whole game at least a bit.
As a console player, I've never understood this refusal to bring Foundry to console. Most of the time I hear it said that Microsoft doesn't allow that sort of thing, or editors are unpopular on consoles, or that it just doesn't work. All three of these things are completely untrue, at least as far as Xbox goes. Many games on Xbox allow mods/map editors, I'd be shocked if you haven't heard of the most famous one, Halo's Forge. In fact, in the current Halo 5 iteration of the Forge, not only can you design maps, game modes, cinematics and triggers from the Xbox One (and the controller input isn't bad either) but you can install it on your PC, edit your heart out, and publish it from your PC to Xbox AND PC players alike. And the Forge is a massive success. The best maps are even featured in specific playlists, after being chosen by the community. And this is a community gathered with the sole purpose of shooting each other, not going on epic quests with their friends. If it can work for Halo, it can work for Neverwinter, and you are seriously hampering your profit margins by not having the Foundry on console. One of the best ideas I have heard so far has been I hope this either changes your minds about bringing the Foundry to Consoles, or you can give us a good reason why you won't, because no one is stopping Cryptic/PWE from doing so, it's extremely possible and even profitable.
Thanks