Our feats need re worked

brick

Been playing a GF since launch on Xbox. Played every possible spec/build. Now i have him at a point where there's nothing more to do with him besides farm salvage. So ive started playing other classes, and one thing I've noticed in comparison to others is how awful our feats are.

We have 15 of our feats tired to specific powers. No other class even comes close! That leaves little for synergy, and often forces us into a feat that either sucks, or is only situational at best.

For instance, cruel cut style only applies to cleave. Which is a garbage at will. Why doesn't it apply to all of our at wills, or at least all but tide of iron and threatening rush? They could also add threatning rush to crushing shield.

I understand that each of the paragon feats should be tied to one of those specific paragons powers. Also understand that possibly one or both of our 5th tier feats should apply to a daily power or class feature.

But no other class has so many of their feats tied to powers.

Am i alone in this thinking? Or is this something the GF community is already aware of?

rjc9000

brick#6890 said:

Been playing a GF since launch on Xbox. Played every possible spec/build. Now i have him at a point where there's nothing more to do with him besides farm salvage. So ive started playing other classes, and one thing I've noticed in comparison to others is how awful our feats are.



We have 15 of our feats tired to specific powers. No other class even comes close! That leaves little for synergy, and often forces us into a feat that either sucks, or is only situational at best.



For instance, cruel cut style only applies to cleave. Which is a garbage at will. Why doesn't it apply to all of our at wills, or at least all but tide of iron and threatening rush? They could also add threatning rush to crushing shield.



I understand that each of the paragon feats should be tied to one of those specific paragons powers. Also understand that possibly one or both of our 5th tier feats should apply to a daily power or class feature.



But no other class has so many of their feats tied to powers.



Am i alone in this thinking? Or is this something the GF community is already aware of?

I'm not saying we don't have our awful stuff. The first tier of Conqueror feats are awful, the majority of the Protector feats only give minor bonuses (and RIP Protector capstone), some Tactician stuff is garbage (the feats involving Anvil, Crescendo, Lunging Strike, and Trample the Fallen). And yes, Cruel Cut Style is, indeed pretty garbage and I too wish it was a 15% boost to all at-wills.

But don't forget, we have quite a good bit of good feats, as well as the mediocre ones which are good enough for what we need.

Powerful Attack is nice, Strength Focus works rather well, Armor Specialization helps from time to time, and Distracting Shield is lovely.
Like most classes, Toughness and Weapon Master are great to have.

Staggerring Challenge turns Griffon's into an amazing lowbie boss destroyer (and a buff to KC is nice), Wrathful Warrior is good, Tacticial Superiority is nice, Jagged Blades is a really good DoT effect, and the capstone is simply amazing.

The Protector gets the short end of the stick, due to a bugged capstone. But even then, the nice little bonuses to Deflect/AC are nice, Overwhelming Impact is a small little bonus, Shieldmaster is great, and Staying Power is good for some DPS builds.

Tactician has gorgeous feats. Daunting Challenge, United, Fight On, Rousing Speech, Inspiring Leader, Surging Tide (it works for everyone, contrary to the tooltip) and Martial Mastery are pretty good.

Just because our class has a lot of feats tied to certain powers, does not make it a total waste. And you seem to forget those feats are tied to different trees (obviously, I can't get Overwhelming Impact in the same build as I would Inspiring Leader, although I wish I could).

So we technically have 3 viable feat paths. Compare us to other classes.

Compare us to the GWF, for example. Instigator just doesn't work, Sentinel can't survive the relevant content (and does little DPS), and all Destroyers run practically the same build with minor variation.

Compare our Heroic feats to the DC Heroic feats. Most DC Heroic feats are garbage, whereas ours has a little room for variation.

Compare us to the SWs. Fury is their only good DPS spec, and even then, the class' raw difficulty leaves Temptation is a poor buffer, decent healer, and mediocre damage dealer. D

Compare us to the Paladins. While the Paladins, all Paladins will play Justice, with the oddball PvP Light Healadin. And most Paladins will run the exact same/similar Justice build, because Light is overkill for Healadins and Bulwark doesn't work with how the Tankadin needs to tank (refreshing their walls of HP).

Lastly, our basic kit (mark, ITF, shield, ET, FR, and Aggravating Strike) is so good that you would purposely need to make and/or play a poor build (cougcough lowlevel "DPS" GFs who have no clue what they're doing coughcough).

rjc9000

Okay, let me try this again before the auto-moderating program goes berserk.

Yes, we have a LOT of feats tied to a lot of powers. And yes, not all of them are great (Tactician feats involving Anvil/Line Breaker/Lunging, the Conqeuror's Cruel Cut Style/Crushing Shield/either one of the paragon specific feats, and many of the Protector feats are underwhelming).

But not all of them are horrible. Examples include Inspiring Leader, Overwhelming Impact, Iron Focus, Tactical Superiority, Staggerring Challenge, Surging Tide (works for everyone, contrary to the tooltip), or Staying Power.

And our basic kit (Mark, Shield, ITF, ET, FR, and Aggravating Strike) is so good that you would purposely need to make a poor build and/or use a poor playstyle (cougcough lowlevel "DPS" GFs which don't understand tanking fundamentals coughcough).

I mean, we're not like the GWF, SW, and arguably OP, which are locked to one viable featpath, or like the DCs, who have garbage heroic feats.

brick

I'm not saying that they're all bad or all terrible. I think it's poor class design when we have so many of our feats aligned with specific powers. It doesn't promote build diversity when everyone avoids the same feats because the power tied to it isn't very good.

brick

Not to mention that protections cap stone is broke, and tacticians is awkward in that it has some sort of sweet spot between having too little DR and getting wrecked, and too much DR and not getting any benefit from it.

rjc9000

brick#6890 said:

I'm not saying that they're all bad or all terrible. I think it's poor class design when we have so many of our feats aligned with specific powers. It doesn't promote build diversity when everyone avoids the same feats because the power tied to it isn't very good.

brick#6890 said:

Not to mention that protections cap stone is broke, and tacticians is awkward in that it has some sort of sweet spot between having too little DR and getting wrecked, and too much DR and not getting any benefit from it.

Oh hey, my original post got teleported back in. lol.

The poor Protectors need their capstone fixed ASAP, as the Tacticians are better Protectors than the Protector right now.

In hindsight, I do agree that some our feats need reworking.

The Tactician capstone kind of discourages a Tactician from gearing up do to the wonky capstone. And for being the buffing tree, we barely get any bonuses for boosting our team's damage (but oddly enough, we get some good team protection goods, like huh?)

Most of the Protector feats just give passive DR and Deflect, which kind of suck once you gear high enough.

Conqueror has some really weird feats (the first tier feats don't really buff DPS, Crushing Shield makes no sense for a Conqueror, Menacing Impact is borderline useless).

But if we ask for a rework, who knows what the devs will do?

grimah

Same problem with every other class, and we actually have it better than others. Conq has some wonky feats, but jagged blades and capstone alone make that tree amazing, the combat superiority one isn't too shabby either.

brick

Good points gentlemen (yes I'm assuming gender lol). We do have good feats, and i guess it's better to be careful what you ask for.

My main comparison was between the paladins justice tree and the HR trees. They just seem so smooth and complementary to the tree as a whole.

That's what i would like to see

ghostman

Hey Brick,

Interesting post and i get what you mean here. This is a disease of a few classes though i mained a CW and a SW and both have fairly broken trees and feats which highlighted or enhanced something or a power that was less than useful and in fact still do. Storm pillar and murderous flames just a off the top of head example.

It is my opinion that maybe there are two many trees and that's why they don't get the finishing touch love or in alot of cases the rework they so need.

About the GF, I started my toon to help my guild long story...BUT

It really is an amazing char to play as rjc9000 has pointed out theres alot more that works on our class that doesn't on others and ive got to say I really enjoy playing it rather than the straight Dps which I'm used to the recent mod 10 balancing saw the nerf hammer swing but we are in a really good place still.

@rjc9000

side note tested KC+GW like you said and after a few runs and timing I pulled off what you described and worked a treat! thanks!

rjc9000

brick#6890 said:

Good points gentlemen (yes I'm assuming gender lol). We do have good feats, and i guess it's better to be careful what you ask for.



My main comparison was between the paladins justice tree and the HR trees. They just seem so smooth and complementary to the tree as a whole.



That's what i would like to see

Yeah, that's why I'm somewhat wary of asking for a rework, especially considering we just got off one in Mod10. Asking for another one, especially given the heat surrounding AA, our Conqueror tree, and the new weapon enchants seems unwise.

Als, correct assumption, but don't summon @romotheone, he'll tell you otherwise.

Oh wait, I think I just summoned him...

ghostman#7107 said:

Hey Brick,

Interesting post and i get what you mean here. This is a disease of a few classes though i mained a CW and a SW and both have fairly broken trees and feats which highlighted or enhanced something or a power that was less than useful and in fact still do. Storm pillar and murderous flames just a off the top of head example.

It is my opinion that maybe there are two many trees and that's why they don't get the finishing touch love or in alot of cases the rework they so need.

About the GF, I started my toon to help my guild long story...BUT

It really is an amazing char to play as rjc9000 has pointed out theres alot more that works on our class that doesn't on others and ive got to say I really enjoy playing it rather than the straight Dps which I'm used to the recent mod 10 balancing saw the nerf hammer swing but we are in a really good place still.

@rjc9000

side note tested KC+GW like you said and after a few runs and timing I pulled off what you described and worked a treat! thanks!

My GF holds a similar story to yours. I was originally a GWF main, but I rolled a GF to tank runs for my guild. After encountering Sharp and eventually Michela, their teachings and talking to them eventually converted me into a GF main.

I watched my GF change so much and sometimes I get poor muscle memory when swapping between two setups (the biggest examples were turtling on my DPS setup or trying to DPS... with Tide... on my tank setup)

Glad to hear that little trick worked. You can use Staggerring Challenge + KC + Griffons to combo most bosses, but remember its effectiveness goes down as the boss' HP gets bigger/the less capable your team is burning within 3 hits of Griffons.

romotheone

I don't really feel like I have anything meaningful to add to this topic. But I do have to fulfill my duty and appear to remind you at least once in a month that your name, was indeed a really weird one. @rjc9000

grimah

If you look through the past notes, they clearly want cleave to be competitive or atleast good. As it has gotten 2 (maybe 3) buffs. But they simply do not know how to buff it properly. The reason why it sucks is because its radius/cone is terrible. Letting you only hit very few people even in an aoe situation in comparison to WMS.

But then they buffed WMS even more which baffled me, putting cleave further back (before the WMS buff, cleave with the feat was similar dps since cleave hits faster). I wish they buffed it up a bit, because it's the only thing that holds me back from being iron vanguard.

Also the +% damage during temp hitpoints isn't bad especially for PvP (if anyone does that still) since you will use ITF before you strike someone.

ghoulz66

Luckily the GF isn't in such horrific shape that it's utterly dependent on very good feats like other classes. Conqueror is weird, there's like only 3 feats you're ever making use of in there. I really wonder what goes on in their heads when they make these things.

More damage with temp HP. Were they testing an OP by accident when they decided this...?

rjc9000

Omg stupid automods deleting my posts. Cryptic, I don't care if your servers are overtaxed by long posts, just let us write really really long posts.

I'll do the short version.

Wrathful Warrior is interesting because of how it fits in with the Conqueror's "you hit me I hit you back even harder" style.

Your best and most reliable source of TempHP is from ITF. But getting hit to proc your other damage bonuses erases your TempHP. Furthermore, you also will need to time your ITF with your team's buffs, or your own damage gets nerfed.

So how do you time your ITF so your tempHP doesn't disappear the blink of an eye, but also so you can make sure you and your team do the most damage?

It's an interesting puzzle which is, imo, befitting of the GF's emphasis on patience and tactics.

tacobeast94

I like what I've read from you all. I have all kinds of opinions, but I'd like to just highlight one point. Considering the upcoming adjustments to the cleric, particularly with anointed army, I think it would be great if the protector capstone was finally fixed. It's apparent that the protector tree is designed to increase the group survivability as well as your own. However, we aren't able to do that in the way it was designed. I'd like to be able to utilize that feat in order to help everyone reduce a hit which would otherwise land for upwards of 500k lol.

grimah

rjc9000 said:

Omg stupid automods deleting my posts. Cryptic, I don't care if your servers are overtaxed by long posts, just let us write really really long posts.

I'll do the short version.

Wrathful Warrior is interesting because of how it fits in with the Conqueror's "you hit me I hit you back even harder" style.

Your best and most reliable source of TempHP is from ITF. But getting hit to proc your other damage bonuses erases your TempHP. Furthermore, you also will need to time your ITF with your team's buffs, or your own damage gets nerfed.

So how do you time your ITF so your tempHP doesn't disappear the blink of an eye, but also so you can make sure you and your team do the most damage?

It's an interesting puzzle which is, imo, befitting of the GF's emphasis on patience and tactics.

Your'd be surprised how often we actually keep that small amount of temp HP. so it's not entirely a waste for a 2nd tier feat because of AA and not just that, in AOE scenarios, your CW uses Opressive force or freeze a group and you get to keep your temp HP during that time.

Ofcourse it's not always up but, more than you'd assume. Though admittedly I have not done a run and focused on checking it's uptime.

rjc9000

grimah said:

rjc9000 said:

Omg stupid automods deleting my posts. Cryptic, I don't care if your servers are overtaxed by long posts, just let us write really really long posts.

I'll do the short version.

Wrathful Warrior is interesting because of how it fits in with the Conqueror's "you hit me I hit you back even harder" style.

Your best and most reliable source of TempHP is from ITF. But getting hit to proc your other damage bonuses erases your TempHP. Furthermore, you also will need to time your ITF with your team's buffs, or your own damage gets nerfed.

So how do you time your ITF so your tempHP doesn't disappear the blink of an eye, but also so you can make sure you and your team do the most damage?

It's an interesting puzzle which is, imo, befitting of the GF's emphasis on patience and tactics.

Your'd be surprised how often we actually keep that small amount of temp HP. so it's not entirely a waste for a 2nd tier feat because of AA and not just that, in AOE scenarios, your CW uses Opressive force or freeze a group and you get to keep your temp HP during that time.

Ofcourse it's not always up but, more than you'd assume. Though admittedly I have not done a run and focused on checking it's uptime.

Never said it was a waste and it's actually one of our best feats. I just wanted to point out how brilliantly designed I think the feat is.

And also, I'm thinking about bossfights, and assuming you might not have AA. You could also assume your DC is giving you tempHP, but not all DCs do that (my DC doesn't use powers with TempHP, but someone like Michela might like using Sacred Flame).

mebengalsfan

brick#6890 said:

Been playing a GF since launch on Xbox. Played every possible spec/build. Now i have him at a point where there's nothing more to do with him besides farm salvage. So ive started playing other classes, and one thing I've noticed in comparison to others is how awful our feats are.



We have 15 of our feats tired to specific powers. No other class even comes close! That leaves little for synergy, and often forces us into a feat that either sucks, or is only situational at best.



For instance, cruel cut style only applies to cleave. Which is a garbage at will. Why doesn't it apply to all of our at wills, or at least all but tide of iron and threatening rush? They could also add threatning rush to crushing shield.



I understand that each of the paragon feats should be tied to one of those specific paragons powers. Also understand that possibly one or both of our 5th tier feats should apply to a daily power or class feature.



But no other class has so many of their feats tied to powers.



Am i alone in this thinking? Or is this something the GF community is already aware of?

I play GF, CW and DC characters. My DC is my main and I am livid that out of the three characters I play my main has the WORST HEROIC FEATS and than there is really only one Paragon Feat path to go due to the other two being completely garbage. With my GF I have tried all three of the Paragon Feat path, tried a combination of Heroics and I can tell you this first hand, they are way better than the DC by a very wide margin. GF are not as good as what a CW or HR has for feats, but the GF feats are still better than the DC by leaps and bounds. If the devs felt that a GF needed tweak to its feat they would have done it with the last pass they just did on the class.

I hope the devs do something for DC as that class is seriously the redhead step child in NW IMO when it comes to feats and Paragon Feat paths.

ragequittingdc

very much interested in checking out how the paragon feats are for gf, going to ping 30 today and slot in iv

beckylunatic

brick#6890 said:

I'm not saying that they're all bad or all terrible. I think it's poor class design when we have so many of our feats aligned with specific powers. It doesn't promote build diversity when everyone avoids the same feats because the power tied to it isn't very good.

Here's a thing. In beta/at launch, the feats for every class (GF, GWF, TR, DC, CW) looked like this, with an overwhelming majority tied to using specific powers. If you look at very old build guides, you can find references to these including raves about how good some of them are. Moontouched adding a heal to Hallowed Ground, for example, was very relevant in 2013/2014. Added classes (HR, SW, OP) have leaned increasingly less heavily on feats that are associated with a specific power, and many of the original classes have had feat rebuilds which changed or eliminated many of those ties as well. Moontouched no longer exists, nor do any DC feats from 2013 except the path-specific ones. This is also why you'll notice that tier 3 paragon feats are never tied to anything, as they were added for the level cap increase, after the overall design meta moved away from tying feats to powers, and the tier 2 feats that change by paragon path are always tied to a paragon power, unless you're an OP and they're just thematic. GF feats haven't removed so many power ties over the years. GWFs also still have a lot of feats tied to specific powers because they've been reworked piecemeal. TRs and DCs were given major reworks at the same time and their feat trees were then almost entirely divorced from specific powers. CW reworks have focused more on distinguishing the paragon trees into control/damage/buff and have kept a lot of specific power ties.

So you absolutely can make the case that the GF falls short of more recent standards and deserves an update, but I think it's important to understand the context in which that has happened, as well as that some of those feats can be really good when they fit a playstyle that supports them.

brick

I had read that the gf was one of the first if not the first class made. And it's starting to show its age. I don't think the class is weak or in need of buffing. I don't think we're too powerful either and in need of nerfing. We have a strong player community that makes the class better as a whole. We do a good job of sharing information and helping with class development. That's a kudos to us as a community.


I love my gf. Best class in the game imho. But I'm also at a point where I'm nearly BIS and can do pretty much anything in the game. But new gfs or lower item level ones could really benefit from a more synergistic feat tree.

mebengalsfan

I like the GF class but when compared to the OP it is not in the same field of being able to survive without a healer. My friend who is OP tank can run etos without a healer, but I cannot do the same. We are both IL 2650+. The difference really sticks out like sore thumb and is quite frankly annoying that GF from what I have tested is not as sturdy as a OP.

Another thing I noticed is that OP get DR from Con, why not share this with GF. It would make taking Con a really useful stat for a GF. Right now, from all build guides I have seen do not recommend Con due to it only really providing a small boost to HP. Most guides recommend STR, DEX and INT as those stats provide a better bonus. IMO, giving GF DR for points in Con would be a good update that would boost the ability survive for a GF.

pitshade

CON at one time was a great investment, but that was pre Mod 6, when our HP weren't completely bloated by gear.

beckylunatic

If the Con bonus was applied to total HP instead of base HP, then the benefit would be solid again.

boromir

People who stack CON, do so for the AP gain, not the added HP.

I'd like to see a complete rework of CON for both the GF and OP. I'm thinking that since it is both toon types main attribute, that it should do three things. 1. HP 2. AP gain 3. Damage resistance.......for both the GF and OP.

brick

Dmg resistance with con on gf would be over the top over powered. We would be able to stack too much hp then, our resistance is good as is.

rjc9000

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brick#6890 said:

Dmg resistance with con on gf would be over the top over powered. We would be able to stack too much hp then, our resistance is good as is.

Pfft I want DEX to give the GF more Critical Chance.

boromir

If you put damage resistance into CON, then you could stack deflect, HP or even lifesteal. It's not a bad idea. That's said I'd like to add a caveat to my original statement. Instead of a full percent of one thing i.e. AP gain for us and DR for pallys.....I was thinking something like 1/2% of both.

Yes!!!! Crit chance into DEX!!!!

brick

YEEESSSSS GIVE US CRITICAL ON DEX!!!

beckylunatic

What do you propose to give up for that crit chance? Or you just want more out of your ability scores than all other classes get?

http://neverwinter.gamepedia.com/Ability_Score

rjc9000

beckylunatic said:

What do you propose to give up for that crit chance? Or you just want more out of your ability scores than all other classes get?

http://neverwinter.gamepedia.com/Ability_Score

I'd give up the AoE Resist or Deflect for the extra Crit.