Pally DPS

dukeguard · February 2017

Been playing one for months now. Is is just me or the paladin needs buff to their dps? PVE feels barely getting thereish kinda feeling.

ravenskya · February 2017

I know my healadin would love a DPS buff. I can't comment on the tankadin world though.

rjc9000 · February 2017

dukeguard#8158 said:
Been playing one for months now. Is is just me or the paladin needs buff to their dps? PVE feels barely getting thereish kinda feeling.

It's not you, the Paladin has really really poor DPS output.

Even Draco (@slappdaniel), who is a 4k OP with practically everything DPS related, will not reach the DPS level of the good GWFs/SWs, or even some CWs/HRs/TRs.

(no offense Draco, if you're reading this. It's just a thing of your class: I don't think you'd outdps the likes of Snoo, Quila, or Fernuu, even on a good day).

armadeonx · February 2017

The Paladin is not supposed to be a DPS class but you can do enough to easily clear solo content and hold aggro even in a party of high DPS.

I have a 3.6k prot OP and kill most solo stuff (in SKT areas) in 1 or 2 hits but you have to spec with DPS in mind.

The first point is; without armor pen (more specifically; Resistance ignored) your power is almost meaningless. Get your RI to -50%, you'll get another 5% from Radiant Strike and the rest via your companion. You'll then hit with full impact.

You need at least 3 of your companions to be straight damage boosters via their active bonus. Mine are 3 archons and a siege master. Also, you need 3 bonding stones and ranking these up is a much higher priority than any other enchantment.

There are finer points such as weapon enchantment, crit, HP etc but the above are the basics. Bear in mind that more dps means more temp health, meaning better tanking.

trzebiat · February 2017

The real issue is that Paladin doesn't have any Resistance Ignored or Damage Bonus from ability score like other classes. Even DC has Damage Bonus from Wisdom. So the focus goes first for Arpen to reach 60% cap and then Power while other classes get around 17% Damage Bonus and RI from their ability score alone.

It really feels like someone forgot to include at least Damage Bonus to Constitution.

ravenskya · February 2017

I personally would like a base damage buff, and as a healadin - better team buffs.

The dot from my TR does more damage in a single tick than my healadin does using an encounter.

dukeguard · February 2017

As a healadin when I tank a swipe from a fire scorpion in Elol I feel like hulk but when I swing my hammer I feel like black widow sigh. The feel just isn't right.

ravenskya · February 2017

Exactly - My healadin has these animations like on smite - that make it look like a big number should pop up - but it doesn't... it's a sad sad number instead

armadeonx · February 2017

trzebiat#2067 said:
The real issue is that Paladin doesn't have any Resistance Ignored or Damage Bonus from ability score like other classes. Even DC has Damage Bonus from Wisdom. So the focus goes first for Arpen to reach 60% cap and then Power while other classes get around 17% Damage Bonus and RI from their ability score alone.

It really feels like someone forgot to include at least Damage Bonus to Constitution.

This exact point is something I've been thinking about recently, mostly because I got a new mount for AP gain and lost my 2k armor pen. Having to replace it elsewhere has been painful.

RI is so absolutely essential I think they should not only add it to ability scores but also replace one of the tier 1 Justice feats with a 10% RI booster similar to the DC's Piercing Light feat.

mebengalsfan · February 2017

dukeguard#8158 said:
Been playing one for months now. Is is just me or the paladin needs buff to their dps? PVE feels barely getting thereish kinda feeling.

Pally's do not list Striker or Controller as part of their class, which are the DPS classes in this game. If you want to play as a DPS go GWF, TR, or SW.

armadeonx · February 2017

mebengalsfan#9264 said:

dukeguard#8158 said:
Been playing one for months now. Is is just me or the paladin needs buff to their dps? PVE feels barely getting thereish kinda feeling.
Pally's do not list Striker or Controller as part of their class, which are the DPS classes in this game. If you want to play as a DPS go GWF, TR, or SW.

That's not particularly helpful m8. He was expressing frustration at the fact his daily solo tasks take a long time. A lot of newer players like to run support classes but I'm sure you're aware of the trouble they can have getting through solo content if not optimally specced - I see you run a DC and GF.

It's a commonly expressed issue that people run a support class because they like to play that part in groups but the game demands they run all the solo stuff the same as dps without any help to make up for their class choice. The game is not really designed to make this any easier.

The thing is, the Pally can do more than enough dps to run solo content quickly, players just need to understand their stat allocations, build and gear choices.

trinity706 · February 2017

@armadeonx is right (for the most part), Paladins are not DPS therefore it will take more effort and compensation in building to get them closer to a point they are naturally set further away from (DPS). Paladins are less likely to do "better" DPS without sacrificing tanking/healing, in other words, can't have it "both" ways.

I'm assuming this is about daily quests and hopefully not in reference to dungeons. Guild boons can bring up AP/RI quit a bit which will bring Paladins (other classes as well) closer to doing more DPS. Paladins get bonuses from their ability scores that other classes don't, it's all part of class balance.

Also grouping will cut down the "dependency" on DPS from a class itself. How I'm seeing it in-game are a LOT of support characters, in Guilds, running around soloing daily quests and I see that as a problem and easier to remedy than solely suggesting changes to the game on the back end (developer input).

mebengalsfan · February 2017

trinity706#8838 said:
@armadeonx is right (for the most part), Paladins are not DPS therefore it will take more effort and compensation in building to get them closer to a point they are naturally set further away from (DPS). Paladins are less likely to do "better" DPS without sacrificing tanking/healing, in other words, can't have it "both" ways.

I'm assuming this is about daily quests and hopefully not in reference to dungeons. Guild boons can bring up AP/RI quit a bit which will bring Paladins (other classes as well) closer to doing more DPS. Paladins get bonuses from their ability scores that other classes don't, it's all part of class balance.

Also grouping will cut down the "dependency" on DPS from a class itself. How I'm seeing it in-game are a LOT of support characters, in Guilds, running around soloing daily quests and I see that as a problem and easier to remedy than solely suggesting changes to the game on the back end (developer input).

The Pally can do DPS you just take a hit to your tanking ability or your healing ability if you go the Justice paragon path. Not sure if a true support players want to take that hit on their support side to pick up some DPS side, especially if you are new to the support role or the game.

DC vs Pally, Pally has an easier time than a DC. You are stronger in that you have a higher AC, weapon damage is higher, and encounters can scale off your weapon damage.

I played all classes at one point, not to 70 but enough of get a feel for them. From my experience Pally do better damage than a DC, if built right. DC are the red headed step child of NW for damage.

fear · February 2017

i felt the same way with my tank paly until a fellow tank paly told me to go back and try burning light again (thx boffsta) after not using it for a loooong time. Before i had smite, templars wraith, & relentless avenger slotted. I would most of the time use relentless avenger as my last attack because of how fast it was at killing whats left of the mob after smite burned most of them up. It turns out the holy burn from burning light & smite go hand & hand together. Another issue i had was i always used to rock my Ioun Stone of Allure because of Aura of Solitude's dmg bonus which works like that Stem the Tide pFeat. Augments are MUCH cheaper to get up to where you need them. The Rank 9's in mine did just fine (there still there) and cost a 3rd or a 4th of what a lesser bonding costs. I could never afford high ranking bondings (still cant) but i never had to have a Bonding proc'n companion (after i learned to use R1 correctly) to face tank even Orcus before update & post update (mod 10.5) plus i use mostly Personalized gear on my companions as i was never a fan of sudden rings. But just recently i finally brought out an attacking companion because i finally had 1 r9 & 2 r8 bondings and just wow. I did however loose the ability to use Aura of Solitude for the great dmg boost but I do dailys anywhere from 3-5 times faster now. But the fact of the matter is true. The other tanking class (gf) will always be able todo more dmg pve/pvp even with the recent buff (mod 10.5) to binding oath. Like someone else said above if you want todo massive dmg you should of made a dps class but if your like me and just wanted all these dailys (...) to go by faster? Play around with all your powers (why do you think we get 53 extra power points) and the biggest help you'll get is from your companions. Im not talking about the favorite BiS Bonding proc'n companions either. Most companions are situational in my opinion and i have come to learn that the companions with really sweet powers have a bad active bonus in my experience but thats fine considering you have 4 more active bonuses to play around with. You only get 5 active but can have a ton of idle companions. More idle slots are cheap too! 80-100 zen or around 30k AD for 8 more idle slots is worth it! I just wish it was cheap like that for inventory slots... No more inventory space could lead to your demise! lol..

ravenskya · February 2017

I think the pally does more DPS than the DC at lower levels - but once you hit about 70 - the dps suffers terribly, at least on the healadin. And I do have both the Justice and Light paths on mine. I just don't have the patience to stand there in SOMI for an hour to kill a group of mobs.

armadeonx · February 2017

To be clear, a pally (unlike GFs) needs to dps to tank. The GF can mark for threat then hide behind the shield and still attack to a degree. The pally doesn't have this option as the shield means no skills are usable. The GF also gets an extra 80% damage reduction prior to dmg hitting their personal DR when shielded. The pally's shield add's 60% to their personal DR which caps at 80% so if you're at 80% anyway then using the shield does nothing except prevent CC plus a little healing.

I'm currently at 75% DR passively (will drop to 70% when I swap out azures for radiants), I get 10% DR from Divine Call and 9% from my companion (this will go up to 14%) so in a fight I sit at ~94%* DR without using any DR enhancing skills.
*note - bosses have 15% RI so you need to have up to 95% DR against them.

The pally relies mostly on temp health to tank, this is based on 3x the damage done by TW so the more damage you do with it, the more temp health you get. As such, a pally needs to get their RI to -60% when you include armor pen, RI boons, Radiant Strike (5% RI) and companion procs.

To emphasise the point, a pally needs to spec as dps to be able to improve their tanking, there is no trade-off.

On the point about augments; I used to run with an owlbear cub (pre-nerf) and I liked the reliability. However, as you rank up you begin to appreciate the fact that your powersharing abilities also affect your companion, which then feeds it back to you. If you have higher level bondings, this 're-sharing' is multiplied, meaning you gain a huge amount.

For instance, my 3.6k pally currently sits at around 23k power & my companion has 3x r12 bondings. In (solo) combat I go up to 80-90k power, in groups with other buffers this goes much higher. E.g. a couple of days ago running HE's I went to ~150k just because there was a DC present.

I ranked my bondings up from r7 to r12 over a long time. Thing is, once you have r8 you're getting 105% which beats an augment. From r9 onwards you're at 150%+ and everything gets better.

trzebiat · February 2017

mebengalsfan#9264 said:

trinity706#8838 said:
@armadeonx is right (for the most part), Paladins are not DPS therefore it will take more effort and compensation in building to get them closer to a point they are naturally set further away from (DPS). Paladins are less likely to do "better" DPS without sacrificing tanking/healing, in other words, can't have it "both" ways.

I'm assuming this is about daily quests and hopefully not in reference to dungeons. Guild boons can bring up AP/RI quit a bit which will bring Paladins (other classes as well) closer to doing more DPS. Paladins get bonuses from their ability scores that other classes don't, it's all part of class balance.

Also grouping will cut down the "dependency" on DPS from a class itself. How I'm seeing it in-game are a LOT of support characters, in Guilds, running around soloing daily quests and I see that as a problem and easier to remedy than solely suggesting changes to the game on the back end (developer input).

trinity706#8838 said:
@armadeonx is right (for the most part), Paladins are not DPS therefore it will take more effort and compensation in building to get them closer to a point they are naturally set further away from (DPS). Paladins are less likely to do "better" DPS without sacrificing tanking/healing, in other words, can't have it "both" ways.

I'm assuming this is about daily quests and hopefully not in reference to dungeons. Guild boons can bring up AP/RI quit a bit which will bring Paladins (other classes as well) closer to doing more DPS. Paladins get bonuses from their ability scores that other classes don't, it's all part of class balance.

Also grouping will cut down the "dependency" on DPS from a class itself. How I'm seeing it in-game are a LOT of support characters, in Guilds, running around soloing daily quests and I see that as a problem and easier to remedy than solely suggesting changes to the game on the back end (developer input).
The Pally can do DPS you just take a hit to your tanking ability or your healing ability if you go the Justice paragon path. Not sure if a true support players want to take that hit on their support side to pick up some DPS side, especially if you are new to the support role or the game.

DC vs Pally, Pally has an easier time than a DC. You are stronger in that you have a higher AC, weapon damage is higher, and encounters can scale off your weapon damage.

I played all classes at one point, not to 70 but enough of get a feel for them. From my experience Pally do better damage than a DC, if built right. DC are the red headed step child of NW for damage.

Justice is the only viable path with the exception of full Light on Dev for PvP due to healing depression. You take a hit by not going for Justice capstone:
Bulwark for Prot is simply bad because tanking relies on Temp HP from TW based on damage dealt - increased damage and cooldown reduction from Justice means more Temp HP and better tanking.
Light for Dev in PvE is overkill, nobody needs to be healed for multiple times max HP, the healing is already crazy good with Bond and Vow. Same reason you don't spec for Wisdom or any other sources of increased outgoing healing from feats, artifact set or companions and go for Con/Cha to maximize damage, and Justice fits that perfectly. To be useful you have to be able to deal some damage and provide some buffs (AoC, AoW, Aura Gifts), because if you're only there to heal you're useless. And God forbid you use Cure Wounds anywhere outside of PvP, or any healing related aura. It really hurts my eyes seeing people who spec for Wis/Cha with Tiamat set on Dev in PvE, with almost no Arpen.
Bulwark on Dev and Light on Prot doesn't make sense in the first place, since you don't build healer to primarily tank things, or tank for healing.

What most people don't get is the real support role of Healadin in PvE and it's not healing, because Oath of Devotion takes care of the healing alone, you can literally heal anything by just staying in place with Bond, placing Vow on enemies and occasionally using Divine Call and Sanctuary. Healing is just a side effect of being present in team, the support role of Healadin is to provide buffs/debuffs and deal damage.

kinganuthin · February 2017

Constitution? That gives health and resistance. Wisdom gives crit. Nothing wrong with Tia belt.

trzebiat · February 2017

<blockquote class="Quote" rel="kinganuthin">Constitution? That gives health and resistance. Wisdom gives crit. Nothing wrong with Tia belt.</blockquote>

Seems you don't know the basics of Paladin class.

Constitition gives HP - the most important stat for OP. Maxing out HP should be priority, Aura of Courage that scales of max HP is one of the biggest source of damage, next to Burning Guidance and Healing Warmth on Dev and Divine Judgement.

Wisdom gives increased healing, the last thing you want either on Dev and Prot. Charisma gives Combat Advantage (more damage), AP gain and Crit chance from Force of Will feat.

Con/Cha is the best allocation of points.

armadeonx · February 2017

trzebait is right, also note that the Heroic Feat Force of Will makes up the crit loss from Wisdom:

- Force of Will - Each point of Charisma now increases your Critical chance by an additional .33/.66/1%.

In other words, choosing Charisma + Force of will means you get all the AP gain of CHA plus all the Crit you would've got from going all WIS. It's a total win.

See here for details.

kinganuthin · February 2017

Ahh got ya. I didn't know aura of courage was that big of a deal for personal dps. I knew it was great for party, especially 10 man+
I also read that even though courage says everyone does damage based on your hp, its based on their own hp. Is that true?
Glad I focused on con when rolling the pally..

armadeonx · February 2017

Yep it's based on the individual HP of the recipient. The thing with the pally is your power increases by up to 10% of your HP in combat, so more HP = more power = more damage = more temp health.

ravenskya · February 2017

So ran the world's longest lostmauth last night. Me on the healadin, a tankadin that I believe only spoke French and 3 dps that were soooo soooo weak. I think my new level 23 companion was out damaging them.

I like to pug now and then to test my skills on unpredictable players - I think it makes you re-think your build and style. that dungeon made me rethink my choice of being a gamer.

I knew things were not going to go well when the first golumn killed everyone but me and the tank. So I checked my auras, removed my dps encounter and added more healing thinking maybe I wasn't doing enough snap healing.

They pull all of the groups and both golumns - they die, over and over and over, it was like a slaughter. The tankadin standing in the middle slowly thudding away at one baddie after another with me running around picking up dead dps and trying to heal a the one-shots. Finally I just started whacking away at the bad guys too.

First boss - every time the dragon jumps, it kills a DPS. I manage to keep a warlock alive by anticipating where the boss is going next and shielding them with my body/shields and sanctuary.

4 more deaths on the way to the scorpions (and no it wasn't even the left door)

Scorpions... everyone died other than me and the tank... and it was a long slog to get them dead.

Lostmauth - all of the dps died on the initial fire breath - that's right, the FIRST ONE. Tank and I wipe to try again. DPS doesn't make it to 50%. Tank and I take him down to 1 bar before he gets us. We try a third time, DPS dies before 50%, me and tank stand there and beat 50% of his life off of him just the two of us. It took forever.

I've been left with only a GF tank before and I have a GF tank. If the tank and healer are left and the tank is a GF - they can kill the baddie. With two pallies - it took us almost a half an hour just to kill lostmauth.

So yeah - a little damage buff on the pally would be nice

kinganuthin · February 2017

ravenskya said:
So ran the world's longest lostmauth last night. Me on the healadin, a tankadin that I believe only spoke French and 3 dps that were soooo soooo weak. I think my new level 23 companion was out damaging them.

I like to pug now and then to test my skills on unpredictable players
they die, over and over and over, it was like a slaughter.
me running around picking up dead dps and trying to heal a the one-shots. Finally I just started whacking away at the bad guys too.

First boss - every time the dragon jumps, it kills a DPS.
4 more deaths on the way to the scorpions (and no it wasn't even the left door)

Scorpions... everyone died other than me and the tank... and it was a long slog to get them dead.

Lostmauth - all of the dps died on the initial fire breath - that's right, the FIRST ONE. . DPS doesn't make it to 5
0%.
DPS dies before 50%, me and tank stand there and beat 50% of his life off of him just the two of us. It took forever.

I've been left with only a GF tank before and I have a GF tank. If the tank and healer are left and the tank is a GF - they can kill the baddie. With two pallies - it took us almost a half an hour just to kill lostmauth.

So yeah - a little damage buff on the pally would be nice

Your dps dropped because everyone else dropped. If you are running bond of virtue and vow, you will be procing burning guidance and healing warmth on every mob from every player. The more bodies (alive) the more procs.. Try the center group of mobs in Tia

.. and congrats on taking lost down with just a tank. It should take a while..

ravenskya · February 2017

Yeah - I know that most of the healadin's DPS comes from healing and procing burning guidance. The problem is when soloing or being the last one standing in a dungeon - there isn't anything to heal to proc off of other than your companion. And that's what - 1 2k and 1 6k per proc? Plus the whopping 2k I do with a swing of an at-will while waiting for an encounter that doesn't do much damage to recharge?

That's what people don't get about why the healadin is so difficult to solo on - damage is based on healing your allies - if you solo you have no allies and therefore no damage.

fatkidhatchets · February 2017

Pally doesn't need a damage buff. I repeat for clarity, DOES NOT NEED a damage buff.

I main a pally healer. It is not our job to do Damage, with that being said, I am able to facetank Orcus, and often am in the top three dps. I also have tanked FBI. That is right, tanked, healed, and DPSed FBI. Did I mention GS was only 3129? Was it easy? Heck no. But it was fun! In either event my point is, no it does not need a damage buff. I could easily turn all that Damage Resistance into Damage.

Now if there was a change to be made on pallys, I would pick Valorous Strike. Poor thing doesn't stand a chance against the other atwills.

ravenskya · February 2017

That's awesome that you can some how maintain threat to actually tank and heal and dps.

How every conversation about a class goes

person 1 - "X class needs a buff in this"

"they shouldn't be trying to do that in the first place"

"have you tried this yet?"

"actually I have done research and this could use some improvement"

examples and discussion

"you all just need to gitgud because I CAN DO ALL OF THE THINGS! ALL OF THEM I TELL YOU!"

snarky comment

the rest of the people - a few comments back and forth until they get bored, realize nothing will change and stop commenting

kinganuthin · February 2017

ravenskya said:
Yeah - I know that most of the healadin's DPS comes from healing and procing burning guidance. The problem is when soloing or being the last one standing in a dungeon - there isn't anything to heal to proc off of other than your companion. And that's what - 1 2k and 1 6k per proc? Plus the whopping 2k I do with a swing of an at-will while waiting for an encounter that doesn't do much damage to recharge?

That's what people don't get about why the healadin is so difficult to solo on - damage is based on healing your allies - if you solo you have no allies and therefore no damage.

you switch powers for solo. I keep vow and burning light, but switch bond to smite, or Templar's wrath. Relentless avenger is good if you have less than great gear because its a massive AP gain letting you use Divine Judgment more often.
I hit diving call before engaging group, vow biggest mob, radiant strike going in. Burning>smite>diving call> vow as needed and oath strike in between.. Your justice feats should be getting your powers cool down pretty quick especially with good recovery.

The biggest factor in this game for DPS, tanking, anything really, is your companion, its gear, and its bonding stones. Honestly, they should be better geared than you. When these are met, you will have lots of power, and Burning light will do good aoe.
I have no issues killing mobs quick solo in SoMI, and i double pull as much as possible.
my summoned is lillend, 3 offence rune (2xR11 and R10 bonding), 3 rings (one being +4 brutality). Cant wait for 2X RF for 3 R12 bonding!!!

ravenskya · February 2017

sounds about how I play.

What kind of damage are you getting out of your burning light?

I don't use lillend as she takes so long to engage that she feels rather worthless. I'm experimenting with that moonbow cleric at the moment.

kinganuthin · February 2017

ravenskya said:
sounds about how I play.

What kind of damage are you getting out of your burning light?

I don't use lillend as she takes so long to engage that she feels rather worthless. I'm experimenting with that moonbow cleric at the moment.

she does take a bit to get started. I like her group heals, and then the added heal when using shield of faith daily. She was free at EPIC, and has great slots..
I have the ghost paladin that i might try. He has his own vow that he cast. Like to see if this means more procs on boons when players hit target.
I couldnt tell you what the damage looks like on BL. Having two Brutality rings (me and comp)and rising ring it fluxes. All I know is the health bars go quick..

Another thing.. im testing Lightning enchant.. So far i like a lot..

is that cleric the one with 3 defence slots? if so.. get rid of it! lol

ravenskya · February 2017

3 defense slots - but adds 25% crit chance to everyone in the group - and stacks with other people running her. We are testing her for different scenarios currently. I actually like the angry chicken... cockatrice I think it's called. I hope they fix him in today's update. I put a +5 ring of orcus on him with bonding just for the entertainment value. My chicken attacks, I get hit, a zombie appears and punches the bad guy - it's like a comedy of errors. I don't actually use those things on serious dungeons but when mucking about it's all about entertainment value.

I think I have a terror enchant on my healadin - not 100% sure though, I think I put the lightning on my GF. I swap things around all the time to see what works best on who.

Pally DPS

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