what would you pay 10 or 20 bucks for in game?

sundance777

I see....My interpretation of $10 is 1000 zen.

omegarealities

sundance777 said:

I see....My interpretation of $10 is 1000 zen.

That's what I do. I figure is this really worth $75 or $35?

thefiresidecat

yup. 10 dollars is ten dollars. I'd pay 10 dollars for 100 legendary keys. that is micro but bulk. right now it's 10 keys for 10 dollars.

mordekai

$20 or even $35 prices set on the Zen market are nothing compared to the prices set by players.
Its no different saving up 550-600'000 AD to buy Zen and get an item from the Marketplace to saving up the same amount to buy a companion from the AH.
People seem to have this weird concept that pricing on the "what someone is prepared to pay" principle only applies to players.

If I want to buy a mount at 3500 zen, I can buy zen and buy it immediately, or save AD and have it within a couple of weeks.
If I want a Tensers Floating Disc, I'm buying at least $250 worth of Zen, or saving for months in the hope that when I've saved enough, there is still one on the market at the same price. And with zero chance of a sale or voucher.
If PWE/Arc made TFD available at 25'000 Zen, players would flip their lids.

Having cash only options to buy stuff cheaper than through an existing zen/AD route is an elitist mechanism to give those time poor cash rich players a leg up over the players who can't afford to drop the money when needed. It goes against the main selling point of the game.

I thought everybody hated "Wallet Warriors"?
Or is that, "Bah, those wallet warriors... unless its me... then it's Ok... but not those other Wallet Warriors, who buy Zen to trade for AD. They're the bad sort..."

They don't need another income stream. If they did, they'd have done it by now, because the marketing and finance arms of the company, (whose job it is to do that stuff) would have figured out the best ways to sell Zen.

Like double RP events.

thefiresidecat

wallet warriors are what allow this game to be a free game. what's wrong with letting people who can afford to shell out shell out so those who want to spend time instead can spend time instead? and what we are talking about here is not large amounts like 35 dollars for a single mount. seriously if you want to complain about this create a new thread. do not post this stuff here. if you have something to bring to the table which is useful bring it but otherwise you're not helping.

the point of this is to try and tone down the cash grabs by helping them find things people want to pay for and the price range we will buy in. which isn't the wallet warrior range.. I'm not sure what is so difficult to grasp about that.

mordekai

I couldn't agree more on people who subsidise the game's existence. Its just funny when you see people who have previously bemoaned cash grabs and pay to win, happy to join in when the suggestion of it falling into their price range is made.

So if people are happy to shell out... what needs fixing?
This looks just like a "here's what I'd like cheaper..." rather than a way to make them money.
"Sell me cheap keys and I'll spend more" equates to "everybody who currently buys keys will buy them cheaper"
So where exactly do the company make money.

I don't see the basis behind this whole "cash grab" mentality you assign the company.
They will have sold more Zen over this double RP event than introducing a new payment scheme with cheaper keys would do.
Aligned with a discount on the zen market products people would want to buy with zen during a double RP event, thus giving AD sellers more reason to buy the influx of Zen, is one of the reasons they don't need a new pay gate.

They will never get it right every time, and every single thing they do will cause someone to complain that its fixed, rigged or crooked, but thats no reason to change the game's ethos.

thefiresidecat said:

... and I'm not talking about things that will ever be tradable on the ah or purchasable with in game purchased zen even. I'm talking straight up cash purchase ideas. this thread is about things you'd get your credit card out for.

thefiresidecat said:

yup. 10 dollars is ten dollars. I'd pay 10 dollars for 100 legendary keys. that is micro but bulk. right now it's 10 keys for 10 dollars.

Aren't keys... purchaseable with "in game purchased zen"?
What changed?

If someone is paying full price with only cash bought zen, and not tradimg AD and using vouchers, they either have enough money to do so without worrying about it, or they're not using their heads.

Slashing the price of keys by 90% only for those who can afford to buy it is not only elitist, but will see the price of zen rise so much that the people who can't afford to buy keys with cash also struggle to buy their piddly ten keys as regularly, as the cost in AD will go up.

armadeonx

The point of making things more affordable with cash is to increase the number of people spending real money. Your point assumes that sales wouldn't increase if prices came down.

If we're talking about prices between 2-5$ a large percentage of players wouldn't think twice but when you get into the $10 - $60 the take-up would be far far less.

The key is to find the balancing point between volume and unit pricing to maximise overall income and I'm of the firm opinion that they've got it very wrong. Their current pricing encourages players to farm AD or cheat by using illegal methods.

The last game that I spend a lot of money on was Guild Wars. Their pricing was cheap and I had a total of 28 characters, maxed storage, all the costumes and just about anything else that was available to buy. I estimate I was averaging around $15 per month and barely even realised it (and that's with a purchased game, not FtP) but over a period of 6 years I'd spent upwards of $1,500 when you factor in account purchases (I had several accounts and had maxed storage, extra characters etc on all of them).

But am I going to spend $35 on one mount? absolutely not, there is no value for money there.

thefiresidecat

Exactly what armadeon said. and I hardly think it is an ELITE that can afford 5 dollars for 50 keys or 100 keys for 10 dollars. lol.

and yes keys are available with in game purchased zen. they are also extremely expensive still. too expensive to play the way most of us play. too expensive to get marks and rings.

and it honestly wouldn't make the price of zen rise. lol. if anything it would lower it. because a lot more people would be buying zen. the cheaper things are the more people buy. the more expensive the less people buy.

If people don't buy then the game starts doing terrible things like the key peek change and the coal ward change. the point of this is so they don't do things that kill the game and instead give us things we want at reasonable prices so we can support the game. these items cost them zero. it's not real money. there is no reason it can't be much cheaper.

do you have a problem with paying for a service that you enjoy? is it wrong to pay for a movie you really want to see for instance? sure people do that. it's not the ELITE that do that. but it might be the elite that pay 100 dollars a seat for the movie and that's what they're doing here at the moment with the way prices are in the zen market. so of course everyone is going to grind for it instead of pay them money for it.

personally I am of the opinion that if I put in days and hours into a game I have no problem paying the game to support it so it keeps on going. but if the game treats me like HAMSTER and also charges exorbitant rates. I'm not going to give them money. my general feeling towards free games is I'll pay what I'd pay an a list title for expansions and the original game as it comes out... if it's not silly. and here.. it's just silly. the prices make me feel like they think I'm here to be milked. yah know? it's far more than any a list title that they're asking.

5 keys is not gonna get me thru one day. 10 keys MIGHT get me thru one day. depending on where I"m spending my time. I'm not giving them five dollars a day. I don't make the equivalent of 5 dollars a day in game. that means cash if I want to play more. but I'm not gonna pay 5 dollars a day.. for this game. no way. 5 dollars for 50 keys would last a bit. that's some value.


it's about balance. I have a problem with them doing HAMSTER cash grabs that make the entire player base feel like they just got hamstered without dinner first. I'm not against them paying their workers though. It's how it's done. I want them to respect the player base. I want to feel respected by the game. instead I feel like the game makers have some disdain for their player base.



Hamster filter manually applied by moderator.

mordekai

What's stopping you from making AD to trade and use that to offset the five dollar cost?
That's what I do if I want to buy something only on the zen market. I also try to get a voucher to save more.
The facility is there. It's available.
The balance exists in the game itself.

Five Legendary keys cost 250 Zen. That equates to about £2.00 GBP. I'm not sure what the pound to dollar exchange rate is, but I'll be surprised if it's 250%. I thought after Brexit we'd flushed the pound down the toilet, but if £2=$5 I'm buying US currency this month.
But, regardless, currently that's just under 70'000 AD. Less than 60k if you use a 15% voucher.

If you choose to spend AD in other ways, that's your choice, not an imbalance in the structure of the game. The facility exists to not have to pay the top price.

armadeonx

I think the point is that there's no issue with the AD to Zen pricing, the issue is with the cash to Zen.

You're also ignoring the previous point that if Cryptic re-evaluated their 'sales volume to pricing' structure they could quite possibly create a win-win for both themselves and the player base.

mordekai

Re evaluating their pricing structure is something they will do anyway.
They're a professional business. They employ people who do that. Any company that doesn't do that at least quarterly needs to sack its finance officer and employ pretty much anyone who often trades on ebay. Realistically, with a product like NWO, that HAMSTER should happen monthly... minimum.

BUT...
If they evaluate it and think it's fine, that is their decision. They may switch things in and out of the market to stimulate sales. (Which, of course, leads to the regular "Why do PS and PC have the Epic Space Monkey companion and we don't? Its not fair... they HATE X box.. threads.)
But given the frequency of sales offering discounts on stuff like the wards during a double RP event (just last week) show this to be the case.
Or do folk think that stuff happens by coincidence?

armadeonx

Having worked in management positions in large corporations, I think I'm reasonably safe in saying that it's entirely possible to give people too much credit for doing things the right way irrespective of the size of the company.

cscriv79

perhaps they don't want to put in smaller 'micro' transactions due to the fact they already would have. People are spending money on the game with the way things are and instead of smaller transactions for more money they will just drop Guild Hall 25 to get big sales again as everyone rushes to be first to 25.

$10 for 100 legendary keys just seems greedy to me considering given the fact that people en masse are buying the keys as they are to run dungeons.

Making things money purchasable only takes away one of the key fundamentals of the game. Everything is purchasable by playing the game.

mordekai

armadeonx said:

Having worked in management positions in large corporations, I think I'm reasonably safe in saying that it's entirely possible to give people too much credit for doing things the right way irrespective of the size of the company.

Yeeaaahh.....
But the fact that regular changes to Zen market in both cost and stock shows that they do, quite clearly....
re-evaluate it on a regular basis.
It's entirely possible to overlook the fact that something is happening, while arguing for that exact thing to happen.

They won't get it right every time. No one does.

But if they did away with a proper market and finance strategy and chose instead to, "listen to the customer" every time someone comes up with a superficial "This would make them loads of money" scheme they'd all be out of a job.
Because as smart as we all may well be, we don't have the finance documents, targets, budgets or in fact ANY finance details of the company.

If people come up with clever inventive ideas to improve the game that's great, if they're plausible then the devs would be stupid to not consider them. Even if the turn out to be impractical or just not to the writers' taste.

But when the revolutionary ideas boil down to "make keys cheaper" sorry, but its neither inventive nor revolutionary.

rjc9000

PC player... but I'd like to share my $0.02 ... or rather, a couple of $s.

What I'd drop money on ASAP:

Transmutes.
Old transmutes pack (give Thayan Zealot Greataxe T_T), new transmutes pack (if Monk is next class, I demand a headband), fashion packs, as long as they're nice looking and available to all classes, I'd buy.

Also, if it helps, the PC's Preview Zen Store in "down" apparently due to changes incoming.

It probably means something mechanical like processing transactions, but hey, maybe we'll get lucky and it'll be a global price drop.

armadeonx

mordekai#1901 said:

armadeonx said:

Having worked in management positions in large corporations, I think I'm reasonably safe in saying that it's entirely possible to give people too much credit for doing things the right way irrespective of the size of the company.

Yeeaaahh.....
But the fact that regular changes to Zen market in both cost and stock shows that they do, quite clearly....
re-evaluate it on a regular basis.
It's entirely possible to overlook the fact that something is happening, while arguing for that exact thing to happen.

They won't get it right every time. No one does.

But if they did away with a proper market and finance strategy and chose instead to, "listen to the customer" every time someone comes up with a superficial "This would make them loads of money" scheme they'd all be out of a job.
Because as smart as we all may well be, we don't have the finance documents, targets, budgets or in fact ANY finance details of the company.

If people come up with clever inventive ideas to improve the game that's great, if they're plausible then the devs would be stupid to not consider them. Even if the turn out to be impractical or just not to the writers' taste.

But when the revolutionary ideas boil down to "make keys cheaper" sorry, but its neither inventive nor revolutionary.

I'm not actually 'too' bothered about keys, for me it's more about the pricing structure on mounts, companions, coal wards, packs etc. Keys are (imo) mostly bought in bulk by those addicted to the 'dice roll' of lockboxes, whereas everything I mention above is more about actual game-play. I firmly believe that they've overpriced these and as such are actually losing potential revenue.

I'm fine with the AD to Zen price, but I feel they would gain more cash sales if items had a separate cash price and the price point was within what the majority of the player base would consider fair.

mordekai

The mounts thing is moot when for 3500 Zen (2975 if you use a voucher) you get as many copies of an epic mount as you have characters.
I have six White Tigers... what's that worth? More than the 500 zen each works out at I reckon.

Players can sell mounts on the AH for whatever they want.
Like I said before, if PWE put Tensers Floating Disk on the AH at 65'000 Zen for ONE character only and no option to use discount vouchers, the player base would have a HAMSTER meltdown. There are people on this forum who, I'm fairly sure, would go full blown "Scanners".
Yet it's OK for players to "charge what people are willing to pay".

Introducing a different pay point would dramatically impact the in game market. Because it could not be influenced by in game play, time rich cash poor players would feel more disenfranchised than the people currently wanting keys to be so cheap, with high enough rewards that they pay for themselves ad infinitum.

armadeonx

I can see neither of us is going to convince the other, you fail to get the primary point about volume v pricing and you've pretty much single handedly derailed the thread so well played mordekai.

mordekai

I was happy to contribute till it turned into another "cheap keys" thread.
We need more of them...

I fully understand stacking high and selling cheap, to shift more units.
The principle driving force behind it is the promise of high turn over at a lower margin rather than high percentage profits, in order to draw in new sales.

Its a valid system... in a competitive market.
If other people were selling Zen, then yeah... use that to undercut them.
But... to undercut YOURSELF in a market that is clearly stable??? I fail to get THAT, cos its not necessary to the point of being downright dumb.

I also appreciate that the game's own economy would suffer if that model were to be applied to a new "cash only" pay stream.

armadeonx

I've gone to the trouble of looking up an explanation from a professional body. They explain the point I've been trying to make in a more eloquent way:

https://icaew.com

mordekai

Again, I understand.

Value based pricing... to increase "Short Term" profits.
They do this already, regularly, by offering "short term" discount periods.

What is proposed by introducing a whole new cash only marketplace isn't Value based pricing, it's a brand new marketplace.

In applying a revised pricing you assume a NEED to improve short term profits, and if I'm not mistaken, the point of this thread was to avoid "cash grab" mentality.

Value based pricing does not mean high volume/low price, it means establishing the best price to ensure customer satisfaction and sustainable profitability.

They already dropped the price of keys, why do they not only need to be even cheaper, but ONLY cheaper for cash? Even though I disagree that the keys are too expensive, I get that there will always be people who want the Zen price dropped, what I DON'T get is why the only people allowed to benefit, should be cash only customers.

Making cash only keys cheaper makes the "value" of the ones bought by AD exchange less. When you turn yourself into your only competitor, it's time to think again. Because the perceived added "value" for cash customers would be exactly mirrored by a negative swing in those bought with AD traded zen... achieving a net zero, and risking the entire HAMSTER business model by taking a sledgehammer to the "Free to play" that critics would waste no time in pointing out.

armadeonx

Short term profit increase was just one aspect of that, the point I'm referring to is the acceptable payment threshold. I believe that the current structure is only attractive to a small percentage of players, those in the cash rich, time poor category.

If they aimed their pricing at a wider band of participants I'm of the firm opinion that they would encourage purchases from those that fall in between the two poles of cash rich & time rich. I believe their current pricing falls outside of what the 'average' player finds as acceptable cash value and that if they had a greater band of 'necessary' items such as items required for upgrades or storage they would see less people farming AD for them and instead using cash.

To me, £10 for a coal ward is excessive whereas 250k AD is still expensive but a more attractive option. If it were less I'd consider it more reasonable, save my AD for other things and use cash for such a purchase. The same for runic bags at £16, 16 bank slots for £8 and race rerolls at £15.

Ignoring the AD conversion for a minute, do you find these prices reasonable? My point is that they have reduced cash purchasing to a niche within their player base instead of it appealing to a wider group.

You almost hit the nail on the head with your comment "Value based pricing does not mean high volume/low price, it means establishing the best price to ensure customer satisfaction and sustainable profitability." but it also refers to expanding their (cash paying) customer base.

I really don't get why you think this is a suggestion to make them compete with themselves, it's about finding the balance between the number of 'customers who pay' with their overall income from these payments. By your logic, they should actually increase their prices, reduce the number of paying customers but squeeze more out of those that do, unless you really think they've hit the right balance already?

mordekai

They might encourage short term increased sales... "Might".
But only short term.
That article you posted explained that value is a subjective position of the buyer.

When retailers drop prices on items they sell in varying quantities they only do so short term. Otherwise what is initially a good value deal becomes the standard deal, and what was the standard is perceived subjectively as poor value.

I'll use a common real world analogy to illustrate... When a store that sells Coke in single, 6 pack, 10 pack, and 24 pack sizes, does a "buy one get one free" on 6 packs it only does that for a short time. Because the added value only exists until the buyers subjective perception shifts. Previously, 10 and 24 packs were better value. Obviously. But if the 6 pack stays at 2 for 1 it shifts from better value to the obvious standard, with the others shifting position in the buyers mind to a position of "Poor" value.
At this point the retailer is in a pickle. Because the low profit 2 for 1 6 pack is the only thing selling.
Only really dumb people will be paying more per unit for bulk.

You see, with a lot of these added value price positions, there is actually very little real difference in cost per unit. That's another reason these things only last a week or so. Smart people work it out and the dumb people stop buying when their smart friend posts about it on Facebook.

Putting a permanent cheaper alternative up that initially represents "better value" very quickly shifts to "standard value" with the alternative original price becoming "poor value for money". This eventually translates to the internet as a "rip off" because that's how the internet works.

No one is going to praise them for making keys cheaper for cash only customers, when they can slate them for "punishing" the people who bought into the "no pay to win" model.

It would not only be a fiscal shot in the dark, it has the potential to be a marketing disaster.

With Legendary Dragon keys, they have...
dramatically cut the zen price already, they offer ample opportunity to earn AD to offset, if not negate entirely, the need to spend cash, they give out vouchers for 15% off and have regular sales...

But that's just not enough, is it.

froger

Some things I would consider buying for $10 - $20:
• Daily random key subscription (valindra, lostmauth, legendary, enchanted, etc) - one key per day
• Additional inventory bag slots, not bags, just slots – sold per character
• Ability to change unbound and character bound items to account bound (3 spots for one item is horse manure)
• Class re-roll
• Auto evocation subscription
• Queue professions, maybe 9 or 18 in advance
Some of this can be rolled into an enhanced VIP program. A cheaper item I would like is a one week vacation mode for VIP. I’d spend a couple of bucks to pause VIP when I know I won’t have the xbox for a week.

mordekai

Just so that I'm clear on this...
I don't have access to the US interface. I see Zen purchases in pounds.
I see Zen prices in Zen, however, and I'm struggling to figure something out.

About two weeks ago, on this thread, someone said that 1000 Zen was ten dollars. They also said that while they would be happy to pay ten dollars for one hundred, (which, if it wasn't a joke, is frankly ridiculous) that currently it was ten keys for ten dollars.

I don't buy the damned things so I don't know if that's accurate, but right now the standard price is 250 Zen for 5 keys. Not the sale price, the regular everyday price.
Unless I'm wildly mistaken, that equates to TWENTY keys for ten dollars?

Have they literally slashed the price in HALF while this conversation has happened and people are still not satisfied???

Anyway, back to the OP... right now I would gladly pay real money for a facility that actually did SAVE my AoE assist setting to "Off" when I press the 'save and exit" button. I'm like the dog that always goes running after the ball, even though it never gets thrown... "Ha! Flame Strike! Take that you... oh... that guys Fire Archon who just walked past... but I saved it... I really did."

sundance777

The cost of legendary keys went from 300 zen for 5 keys to 250 zen for 5 keys. That is like $0.50 US per key or about the same cost as a single cigarette. The US interface, to purchase 1000 zen with real money via the Microsoft store, it is $9.99 plus tax, or about the same cost as a pack of 20 cigarettes.

I think the point the person was making is at the cost of $10 per 20 keys, they will pass on these keys as they are optional in the game... but if it was $10 per 100 keys, then they would purchase keys again.

mordekai

Hey, if they dropped the price of single malt by 80 or 90% I'd be drinking much more of that as well.
Of course, the distillers would be out of business in six months since they'd make no money, but what a six months it would be.

ETA, (So even before, at 300 for 5 they were literally nowhere near $10 for 10 keys?)

cscriv79

$10 for 10 enchanted keys is perhaps what they meant?

mordekai

Perhaps that's it.
Which would make the suggestion of selling 100 of THEM for ten dollars (for cash customers only) even more ridiculous.

armadeonx

You're still not understanding my point lol.

You're working on the assumption that the number of customers would remain static if they changed their pricing structure, whereas my argument is that the current price point means that the majority of the potential customer base make little or no purchases with cash and that by moving it to within the realms of acceptability (Value Based Pricing) for the bulk of players would alter the outcome of number of customers * item price in the company's favour.

This isn't about short-term profits, it's about price-dependent demand