I like the Circle of Power so much that Waywardwizard thinks I'm a troll!

telprydain

Old title: CoP + Shield of faith is the new bubble. *
The strength of the bubble for me was the ability to run newbies through rough dungeons*. This combo seems to replicate that ability as long as they stay inside the 'happy circle'**. Heaps*** of mitigation with 100% up-time... if that doesn't do it they likely have no business being in the dungeon.


* But this I meant that it fills the same role for me as the bubble did. I'm not saying that it's literally the same, and in my post I clarify WHY I used the bubble to give this statement additional context.
** That is to say, as someone who spends most his gametime helping newbies, my prime worry is how to keep said newbies standing. My build is focused on that, moreso than anything else. That's not to say the rest isn't important, it's just outlining why I used the bubble and why I value this recently changed power.
*** I call it that, because when taking newbies through any dungeon for the first time, I instruct them to stay in the 'happy circle'. It's supposed to invoke Bob Ross, not signal an intent to mock.
**** I previously said 75%, which is wrong. Although with other buffs and debuffs (gryphan mount, bane, aura of truth, the Valhalla set, etc) that number is still about right.

junius

Howd you get 75%? Circle is 25% and SoF is 30%

armadeonx

I think he meant 55%. Most new 70's will have ~5%DR and 60% is fine for ETOS if they are trying to earn protector seals.

waywardwizard

CoP has become a staple in my rotation and people are learning to stay in too. As far as the bubble goes that title belongs to only AA now.

telprydain

My bad... I thought that SoF had been patched to something higher.

armadeonx

I did a load of CN pugs last night (my testing ground for what works in different compositions lol) and I've found that CoP is great if you have a decent debuffer with you. If not, I've found that absolution is more reliable as you get the DR of CoP (actually you get twice the amount so you'll max for sure: "The Oath of Protection bonus for this power has been adjusted to provide a 50% increase to damage resistance for the duration of the shield."

Of course, you can't apply it team wide and it's tricky getting it on yourself and not accidentally applying to someone else but as someone who never used it before, I'm starting to love it...

nickjdowe

You have to love a class community that gets nerfed into the ground, immediately discovers a work around (that some OPs silently used for a long time) and then rushes to the forums to tattle on itself. Can't make this stuff up...

nightranger7477

I somewhat agree with that thought, I am very hesitant to post anything on this forum for that reason..... It's pretty sad when you have to fear repercussions in the form of nerfs for trying to help others who enjoy playing the class. Of course other sources of social media that include videos (hesitant to name names in order to avoid censorship) have done a good job of causing a lot of the nerfs as well. All in all I am satisfied with a lot of the changes but the paladin class need more than a few changes in encounters and daily nerfs to repair the class as a whole, we need a comprehensive class rework to make more than the Justice path viable, Imo they still have quite a way to go in order for us to be viable on a consistent basis.

armadeonx

To be fair the GF has been able to apply 65% damage reduction to the whole team (extra 10% via Daunting Challenge + 5% from United) at the same time as a 30% dps buff, target debuff and hide behind a shield that provides a 2nd layer of 80% protection at the same time as attacking and marking.

Using Aura of Protection + CoP + SoF puts Pallies at 62.5% damage reduction so we're almost of on an equal footing now but that means not using Aura of Courage which is a noticeable reduction in buffing. You also have to run up to the likes of Orcus with just your temp health & SoF before dropping CoP and as Bane is now slow, you can't slap on the 30% debuff quickly enough.

Unknown

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kitkathd

The only value circle of power has is how much ap gain it gives a person. Shield of faith is literally garbage to a tankadin. Get 4 ap gain reinforce kits and ap gain on your shield and go back to being a good pally again. Absolution is 100% garbage, the only place you need max DR is orcus and he takes it off instantaneously each hit, not to mention half the time you cast it on someone else. Focus power, always use radiant strike before you pop templars wrath, and enjoy being a pally tank again.

jipoux

I advise you to play CoP with the bubble because the damage you take is mitigated by the resistance you have in the CoP. In addition your mates win defense, suddenly it makes your team accumulate DC buff / debuff very tank.

nuzman73

I found today with my Tankadin I had a high success rate tanking Orcus using COP TW and Absolution...Auras used were Protection and courage. As far as the problem with Absolution being triggered on someone else by mistake I found if I look completely up and use it it procs on only me. Problem solved. I also placed it on everyone before we went into battle and made sure my ap was full so I could use SOF instantly...works like a charm. My item level is 2943

telprydain

Tanking Orcus is a non-issue if you have a high IL and any ability to play the class. Wrath and the ability to cast it is all you need.
The question is how do you provide mitigation to your party outside of that one easily tankable encounter.

It's worth noting that, if the murmurs are true, binding got the nerf (and bubble got it's 2nd nerf) due to the ability to negate everfrost damage - not for PvP/dungeon usage. Being able to mitigate large amounts of damage isn't an oversight (particularity when it's reliant on folk keeping in the confines of CoP), so I wouldn't expect this to incur the bannhammer.

armadeonx

Yep it was because of Everfrost damage. They said so on their preview notes about it, it's also why the bubble received a 2nd nerf.

As they put it, a Pally hitting bubble when Drufi starts Call of Winter would result in only the Pally dying then getting soulforged and everybody else coming through it unscathed. That's because it gave 100% protection for everyone except the Pally.

nickjdowe

Running CoP and SoF grants the entire team the ability to be way more resilient. You now have players taking manageable damage that can be healed. Before this, those players were being 1 shot randomly which rendered having a dedicated healer moot. It also gets teams away from requiring AA to keep them alive in dungeons. The OP has power share, recovery/cool down buffs, heals, intercepts incoming damage, while making the team extremely tanky. However bad players will still die, and bad paladins will cause the entire to team to die. It's exactly as it should be. To compare it to the bubble is nonsense.

telprydain

By bubble I really meant, "the meta that everyone should be using", rather than. "utterly borked mechanic". But sure.

michaelrn1982

While everyone is concerned about the absolute highest DR, I believe that there are missing mechanics that are long forgotten about. As an OP, you are also able to debuff damage. Within a few encounters and feats, you are able to reduce damage by 50%+ without thinking much. I am not here to say DR is not important, because it is important. However, using multiple mechanics at once can provide a better solution to tanking with the understanding that there are things you just can't mitigate (Everfrost damage for example). I do not think there is just one build that works in this game, but it is a matter of exploring other options that work for you instead of using "the build" that one person says.

armadeonx

Absolutely, good Pallys know they need to achieve a kind of 'golden triangle' of DR, HP & Debuff.

trzebiat

michaelrn1982 said:

While everyone is concerned about the absolute highest DR, I believe that there are missing mechanics that are long forgotten about. As an OP, you are also able to debuff damage. Within a few encounters and feats, you are able to reduce damage by 50%+ without thinking much. I am not here to say DR is not important, because it is important. However, using multiple mechanics at once can provide a better solution to tanking with the understanding that there are things you just can't mitigate (Everfrost damage for example). I do not think there is just one build that works in this game, but it is a matter of exploring other options that work for you instead of using "the build" that one person says.

Stacking Azures for Defense and higher DR on Pally is in my opinion wrong and I never understood why people do that on OP. There are easier ways to get a temporary boost to DR like Divine Call, Absolution or Circle of Power or build DR during fight with Negation. HP is far more important because the main Prot OP mechanic is based on max HP - more HP means more Power from taking damage and that means more Temp HP from Templar's Wrath and more Defense, Recovery, AP Gain, Deflect etc. from Artificer's Persuasion and Shepher'd Devotion insignia bonuses. And there's also Aura of Courage that is based on max HP that works for both Dev and Prot. And like you said there are ways to reduce incoming damage, Bane and Shield of Faith alone reduce damage by 51% and you can also reduce it with Aura of Truth and there are also weapon enchantments and companions that can help with that even more.

I have only 12k Defense unbuffed and 50% DR. I get about 3k Defense from bondings and I use Perfect Negation that gives max 30% DR. Thanks to 200k HP I get more Power from taking damage and more Temp HP, and with insignia bonuses my Defense goes up to 20-28k after using daily.

michaelrn1982

I tested Orcus last night with higher debuff values and had some very successful results. Below is the math that I only can conclude on why it is possible to face tank him without heals.

Debuff - 10% from Martyr's, 15% max from Rust Monster, 30% from Bane, 12.5% from Aura of Truth = 67.5%
DR Stuff = 64% Base, 10% from Divine Call, 25% from Circle of Power = 99% DR

End Result - Still got hit for smaller chunks (Saw hits for 35-48k). Did not have to use BO. Base HP was at 211k and did not dip into actual HP pool.

With this tested out, it is possible to not rely on DR being sky high and a higher HP pool and/or yielding a higher TW hit may be just what we need to be the effective tank while maintaining aggro from DPS alone. I could see a use for Shield of Faith if you did not want to use CoP. I believe you would need a higher AP gain to keep that up. I do not think that it is possible to mitigate all damage from bosses, but possibility from trash encounters(as i think everyone has seen the 0 damage fly on their screen at some point).

I believe from a number standpoint that 65% is a reasonable number for any OP to work with in terms of their DR rating. This would leave the opportunity to slot/equip something else like Lifesteal, HP, Deflect and etc.

armadeonx

trzebiat#2067 said:

michaelrn1982 said:

While everyone is concerned about the absolute highest DR, I believe that there are missing mechanics that are long forgotten about. As an OP, you are also able to debuff damage. Within a few encounters and feats, you are able to reduce damage by 50%+ without thinking much. I am not here to say DR is not important, because it is important. However, using multiple mechanics at once can provide a better solution to tanking with the understanding that there are things you just can't mitigate (Everfrost damage for example). I do not think there is just one build that works in this game, but it is a matter of exploring other options that work for you instead of using "the build" that one person says.

Stacking Azures for Defense and higher DR on Pally is in my opinion wrong and I never understood why people do that on OP. There are easier ways to get a temporary boost to DR like Divine Call, Absolution or Circle of Power or build DR during fight with Negation. HP is far more important because the main Prot OP mechanic is based on max HP - more HP means more Power from taking damage and that means more Temp HP from Templar's Wrath and more Defense, Recovery, AP Gain, Deflect etc. from Artificer's Persuasion and Shepher'd Devotion insignia bonuses. And there's also Aura of Courage that is based on max HP that works for both Dev and Prot. And like you said there are ways to reduce incoming damage, Bane and Shield of Faith alone reduce damage by 51% and you can also reduce it with Aura of Truth and there are also weapon enchantments and companions that can help with that even more.

I have only 12k Defense unbuffed and 50% DR. I get about 3k Defense from bondings and I use Perfect Negation that gives max 30% DR. Thanks to 200k HP I get more Power from taking damage and more Temp HP, and with insignia bonuses my Defense goes up to 20-28k after using daily.

Well one of the points I've considered is that at r12 a Radiant will give you 2.8k HP and an Azure will give you 1.75%DR. If Orcus strikes for 800k unmitigated, 1.75% of that is 14k damage. Even if you mitigate it by 50% via SoF & 2xBane you're still taking 7k damage.

The boost to your temp health via the extra 2.8k HP is 490 power (pwr inc being 10% of HP inc, then share 25% with companion who returns x3 the value). Working on the premise that you already sit at 80k power (in combat) the extra DPS value is 0.4% which you then x3 for temp health value = a total increase to your temp health generation of 1.2%.

Obviously the value of that 1.2% depends on how much temp health you normally generate. The point being is that you'd need to generate in excess of 584k temp health for an increase in HP to benefit you more than an increase in DR.

This all of course works on the assumption that you have an epic companion equipped with r12 bonding stones. The calculation is much worse for those that can't translate the full x3 power return from their companion.

This also works on the assumption that you're able to keep SoF up permanently as well as averaging at 2x strikes of Bane. If your Recovery/AP gain is insufficient to keep this going, you're going to take significantly more damage during the downtime/gaps.

The way I look at it is you function best by having maxed DR when bonding procs, divine call & powers are taken into account. In other words, if bosses hit with 15% RI, meaning you need 95% DR to negate at max value then I go with the following logic:

At max I'll get 15% DR from bonding procs. I also get 10% DR from Divine Call which leaves me at requiring 70% DR to max. I can improve this further by way of CoP but I personally don't really like it. It's clunky to use and confines you to a small area meaning if you have to move you lose the DR.

I'd rather get my maxed DR THEN put the rest into HP so my class features and encounters are all focused on powering down the target rather than keeping me alive.

My defence is sufficiently good that I don't use a negation. I use a T.Fireburst as it adds a very nice amount of damage. I've seen ACT tests which put the fireburst, briartwine and frostburn in a side-by-side comparison and the fireburst significantly out-performed the other two.

trzebiat

armadeonx said:

trzebiat#2067 said:

michaelrn1982 said:

While everyone is concerned about the absolute highest DR, I believe that there are missing mechanics that are long forgotten about. As an OP, you are also able to debuff damage. Within a few encounters and feats, you are able to reduce damage by 50%+ without thinking much. I am not here to say DR is not important, because it is important. However, using multiple mechanics at once can provide a better solution to tanking with the understanding that there are things you just can't mitigate (Everfrost damage for example). I do not think there is just one build that works in this game, but it is a matter of exploring other options that work for you instead of using "the build" that one person says.

Stacking Azures for Defense and higher DR on Pally is in my opinion wrong and I never understood why people do that on OP. There are easier ways to get a temporary boost to DR like Divine Call, Absolution or Circle of Power or build DR during fight with Negation. HP is far more important because the main Prot OP mechanic is based on max HP - more HP means more Power from taking damage and that means more Temp HP from Templar's Wrath and more Defense, Recovery, AP Gain, Deflect etc. from Artificer's Persuasion and Shepher'd Devotion insignia bonuses. And there's also Aura of Courage that is based on max HP that works for both Dev and Prot. And like you said there are ways to reduce incoming damage, Bane and Shield of Faith alone reduce damage by 51% and you can also reduce it with Aura of Truth and there are also weapon enchantments and companions that can help with that even more.

I have only 12k Defense unbuffed and 50% DR. I get about 3k Defense from bondings and I use Perfect Negation that gives max 30% DR. Thanks to 200k HP I get more Power from taking damage and more Temp HP, and with insignia bonuses my Defense goes up to 20-28k after using daily.

Well one of the points I've considered is that at r12 a Radiant will give you 2.8k HP and an Azure will give you 1.75%DR. If Orcus strikes for 800k unmitigated, 1.75% of that is 14k damage. Even if you mitigate it by 50% via SoF & 2xBane you're still taking 7k damage.

The boost to your temp health via the extra 2.8k HP is 490 power (pwr inc being 10% of HP inc, then share 25% with companion who returns x3 the value). Working on the premise that you already sit at 80k power (in combat) the extra DPS value is 0.4% which you then x3 for temp health value = a total increase to your temp health generation of 1.2%.

Obviously the value of that 1.2% depends on how much temp health you normally generate. The point being is that you'd need to generate in excess of 584k temp health for an increase in HP to benefit you more than an increase in DR.

This all of course works on the assumption that you have an epic companion equipped with r12 bonding stones. The calculation is much worse for those that can't translate the full x3 power return from their companion.

This also works on the assumption that you're able to keep SoF up permanently as well as averaging at 2x strikes of Bane. If your Recovery/AP gain is insufficient to keep this going, you're going to take significantly more damage during the downtime/gaps.

The way I look at it is you function best by having maxed DR when bonding procs, divine call & powers are taken into account. In other words, if bosses hit with 15% RI, meaning you need 95% DR to negate at max value then I go with the following logic:

At max I'll get 15% DR from bonding procs. I also get 10% DR from Divine Call which leaves me at requiring 70% DR to max. I can improve this further by way of CoP but I personally don't really like it. It's clunky to use and confines you to a small area meaning if you have to move you lose the DR.

I'd rather get my maxed DR THEN put the rest into HP so my class features and encounters are all focused on powering down the target rather than keeping me alive.

My defence is sufficiently good that I don't use a negation. I use a T.Fireburst as it adds a very nice amount of damage. I've seen ACT tests which put the fireburst, briartwine and frostburn in a side-by-side comparison and the fireburst significantly out-performed the other two.

In your case when you don't use Negation it makes sense to go for Azures in defense slots to get closer to cap. But I personally wouldn't sacrifice HP from Radiants in defense slots only to use different armor enchantment. Especially when so many other things depends on max HP, not only the power from Protection Oath. With only 50% base DR at the start of fight Divine Call gives 10%, on bosses Absolution can give extra 50% for the first hit, starting with daily you can get some defense boost from insignia bonuses and during fight Circle of Power gives 25% and Negation up to 30%.

armadeonx

Oh I will be using Radiants in my defence slots once I get my companion defence slots to r12 (currently at r10), I estimate I'll be able to swap them out on March 2nd, run with 70% DR passively and 95% with procs & Divine Call.

I'm currently at 75% to compensate. I use absolution when entering a boss fight if there's no AA DC as Orcus removes Absolution in 1 or 2 hits even with SoF. I've found it more reliable than CoP.

When completed, I'll be sitting at 70% DR, 165k HP, 25k base power and 8k recovery. In combat that'll be 95% DR, ~90k power, up to 90% crit chance and ~12k recovery. I'm estimating this is about 8-12 weeks away given my current position and the fact I never spend real money lol.

Edit: I think one of the points I'm trying to make is for the benefit of lower IL pallies. That at pre 3.5k it's my opinion you're better off going for DR over HP and once you get your gear up you can start trading out but it's best done in an intelligent way where you understand the math involved.

One other point, this time on Negation. It's effectiveness depends on how frequently you're being hit. I've not actually timed him but I'd say Orcus hits at a rate of about once every 1.5 seconds. With each stack of Negation lasting 9 secs (from Perfect & up) that's a max of 6 stacks or 18% DR. Obviously this is less at lower ranks and is effected by it being .5 of a second in either direction (1 sec = 9 stacks, 2 secs = 4 or 5 stacks). Pallies with lower ranked Negations need to bear in mind that their stacks will last 6-8 secs.

trzebiat

Good point about lower IL players and Negation. Also defender companion should be better for lower IL player, I have the lion and while it was great for tanking on Dev, I just don't like it anymore on Prot (keeping it ready for active bonus once I get the mount for the combo) so I run with striker to get the whole aggro so Negation kicks in faster. And I like better 5 offense 1 defense slots from 3 rings than 3 offense 3 defense slots from 3 personalized necks on the lion.

isaintify1

telprydain said:

The strength of the bubble for me was the ability to run newbies through rough dungeons. This combo seems to replicate that ability as long as they stay inside the 'happy circle'. 75% mitigation with 100% up-time... if that doesn't do it they likely have no business being in the dungeon.

This is how rumors and "nerfs" start... -_-

michaelrn1982

I believe what this really comes down to is what do you have currently and what can you get in the meantime. Gear now days is considerably easier to get, at least on the PC side. With the existing guilds and strongholds, many are able to run DF without the effort that it took when Strongholds first came out.

I used to use the Negation enchant during mod 6 on my OP. I realized even then that DR would be easier to obtain via gear than depending on an enchant to boost it up where I needed it to be. Thus, the reason I am currently sticking with a Shadowclad (but not the Trans level because that would be stupid for a tank), but an entertaining the thought of a Trans. Bloodtheft (just a crazy idea I have, nothing logical about it). While deflect is not dependable (and I do not slot it over HP in a defense slot, ever), it has come in handy as this backup defense mechanism. I usually can see this rate in ACT by how often Fey Thistle is used/hits.

waywardwizard

isaintify1 said:

telprydain said:

The strength of the bubble for me was the ability to run newbies through rough dungeons. This combo seems to replicate that ability as long as they stay inside the 'happy circle'. 75% mitigation with 100% up-time... if that doesn't do it they likely have no business being in the dungeon.

This is how rumors and "nerfs" start... -_-

Yes, his opening post almost looks like something a troll would write. False information plus the words he uses ("happy circle" lol ). Perhaps another person who fails to kill paladins in pvp has descended upon this section of the forums.

armadeonx

I can positively state that telprydain is not a troll and is a fair & reasonable player who is a leader of one of Xbox's most established, helpful and friendly guilds (Casual Gamers).

Could the initial post have been worded better? Yes, but I'm of the firm opinion that his intention has been misinterpreted by some.

He is not "another person who fails to kill paladins in pvp" as it's quite obvious he plays a pve paladin and his core interest here is taking newer players through T2 dungeons.

Saying that, @telprydain you may want to reword the title of the post lol.

waywardwizard

armadeonx said:

I can positively state that telprydain is not a troll and is a fair & reasonable player who is a leader of one of Xbox's most established, helpful and friendly guilds (Casual Gamers).

Could the initial post have been worded better? Yes, but I'm of the firm opinion that his intention has been misinterpreted by some.

He is not "another person who fails to kill paladins in pvp" as it's quite obvious he plays a pve paladin and his core interest here is taking newer players through T2 dungeons.

Saying that, @telprydain you may want to reword the title of the post lol.

Well in that case apologies for my troll remark telprydain. As far as the actual question goes a high enough IL paladin could theoretically carry 4 people thru anything up to CN where said paladin will need help. But if that paladin is only a tank focused on protection the runs will be either tediously long or simply failures as after all you need good dps too. If you want to have fun, quick runs with newer players Id suggest Malagob/Valindra/Elol/Etos. Start slow, let them build up some experience.

telprydain

Title changed, and first post updated.

See? Now I'm trolling.