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[PC] BOWSER IV : Mod 10+ GF Protector Build

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  • dread4moordread4moor Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,148 Arc User
    Hello tank aficionados.
    Late reply to the best tactician in NW @rjc9000 regarding lifesteal.
    To paraphrase your question:
    "Why not stack lifesteal on the Bowser IV build?"
    Last year we tested this build with LS at 5th priority after HP (>140k), stamina (>1100), defense (all source DR >80%) and deflect (>40%)
    And you are correct in saying LS stack could work.
    Used those same settings and tested it again with a test Bowser IV, ~1000 Lifesteal (all "coincidental" gear LS):
    Here is a sample of ACTs from 8 runs in CN and mSVA:

    https://docs.google.com/document/d/11Kd8oWoDviJh_h0xDUO_02D8TQE9xu8fv_niw1PO6Ow/pub

    Lifesteal obviously works well. That is not news.
    But the test toon died more often with "LS Bowser" then the current build. Why? DPS for this build is high frequency low volume.
    This build's RedRef hits enemies frequently, sometimes 60-80 per minute, but with low damage per hit. So LS stacking results in a slow continuous flow of incoming tiny heals (most of it overhealing).
    But with the face-tank, pain-drain, please-hit-me play style of this build that is not a big help.
    A well-played Bowser only risks death from group KV oneshots that leave us barely alive. MSVA Hailstorm with everyone standing in the red, for example.
    This build needs rare, sudden and unexpectedly massive BURST healing.
    Enraged regrowth, Fighter's recovery, elven tranquility, champion's return, self revive... and others like them offer lifesaving burst heals for this build.
    Stacking Lifesteal is mandatory for a Conqueror, a good idea for a Tactician.
    But for a low DPS Protector? Meh.
    Just a little LS, as you can see above, works just fine.
    Any more then 800-1000 on this build seems to be just overheal with no death prevention.

    Thanks for your excellent constructive criticism. Will always accept the possibility that we're doing something wrong. It's the only way to get better.
    JrUzbQw.jpg?1
    I am Took.
    "Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
  • dread4moordread4moor Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,148 Arc User
    rjc9000 said:

    More things I noticed...

    I know you guys didn't cover Desperate Survival, although I think it's a good joke in that Desperate Survival is so bad, you guys even forgot it exists. :P

    I understand that the point of the build is to spread the Reflect damage/procs (and Lifesteal usually competes with the Reflect procs), but given how you're using KV + GA + other reflect sources, why not stack some lifesteal so you get healed for every time you get hit? Imo this would make your build nigh unkillable (and it would also allow you to use SoS 24/7 instead of needing the occasional FR to patch yourself up).

    And also, Iron Focus is much much much better than you guys make it out to be. Since the Mod10 GF changes, Iron Focus changes Frontline Surge to be an AoE marking effect which also taunts, turning it into a more focused version of Enforced Threat. Granted, I know that you guys are using ET (which trumphs Iron Focus + FrontlineSurge in terms of spreading marks), but you guys should at least consider the fact that Iron Focus + Frontline Surge isn't as awful as, say, using Ferocious Reaction.

    Mod10 GF changes
    http://www.arcgames.com/en/games/neverwinter/news/detail/10080453-class-balance:-guardian-fighter

    blockquote>

    Re: Desperate Survival...
    Early feedback from several critics who read the draft of this build said it was "too wordy", "long winded" and "confusing that you include discussion of powers you are not recommending".
    So the published version does not mention Desperate Survival (and a half dozen other not-recommended powers and features). Glad to discuss it with you, however.
    Desperate Survival Class Feature available after 60 Power Points spent.
    Deflection Chance: +1%
    Hit Points Threshold: +5%

    Author consensus... Meh. Only one Class Feature slot available (GA is always slotted on Bowser). Benefit potential of Shield Talent, Enhanced Threat, SWWrath and Combat Superiority are all greater then this. Can't imagine it ever being better then those.
    Re: Iron Focus (0/5)
    We covered that. "
    The frontline surge threat boost is nice, but Bowsers only use Frontline in solo. Not worth the points."
    We love frontline. Great skill. We use frontline all the time... solo.
    You don't want to build threat when solo. Only in party.
    And in party we use EThreat or
    So why waste feat points on Iron Focus?
    But we cannot use it in party.
    Only have one slot. If we need threat, we use EThreat. Need DPS boost, use C.Strike.
    So Iron Focus no help at all for this build. Maybe good for a Tact or Conq.

    JrUzbQw.jpg?1
    I am Took.
    "Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
  • mamalion1234mamalion1234 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,360 Arc User
    edited February 2017
    knight challenge vs a boss yes under aa.

    IF you gear defensive knight challenge is safe to play it without depend to strange mitigation dailies:)
  • remfdtremfdt Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 82 Arc User
    KC works GREAT vs. Orcus- just stay out of melee range while it's up... 10 sec of 100% aggro, 0% incoming dmg.
  • dread4moordread4moor Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,148 Arc User
    remfdt said:

    KC works GREAT vs. Orcus- just stay out of melee range while it's up... 10 sec of 100% aggro, 0% incoming dmg.

    knight challenge vs a boss yes under aa.

    IF you gear defensive knight challenge is safe to play it without depend to strange mitigation dailies:)

    Yes, we mention in the build that KC may be used for certain solo boss battles.
    I'll ask Doug (Baggs) to run it in comparison to our other recommended "extra slot" encounters on ACT.
    [Speaking for myself now, not the other authors]
    Anectdotaly, I don't recall getting a major benefit in terms of mitigation with a KC+ITF+KV loadout compared to my usual CStrike+ITF+KV.
    Bowsers rarely die in Orcus anyway. We can face-tank Orcus all day with our Permashield up.
    Only an unlucky double deathsphere can kill us.
    The rest of the fight we are shield up 90% time, time it to pop ITF on cooldown (with CSTrike, Fighter's Recovery or Overwhelming Impact/SoS and/or TRush mark if they are up/needed) between his slams.
    2 seconds later, shield back up. Tabmark if needed, Jab-jab-jab-Jab... rinse and repeat.
    No challenge for us at all except the spheres. KC doesn't make much of a difference.
    Also, without CSTrike Orcus takes much longer to kill.
    I just don't see the major advantage of KC here unless the Bowser IV is new/poorly geared.
    The minimal survival improvement of KV is outweighed by the significant potential party damage buff of CStrike. But we will run a comparison test and see.
    Thanks for your input.
    JrUzbQw.jpg?1
    I am Took.
    "Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
  • remfdtremfdt Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 82 Arc User
    edited February 2017

    knight challenge vs a boss yes under aa.
    ...
    I just don't see the major advantage of KC here unless the Bowser IV is new/poorly geared.
    The minimal survival improvement of KV is outweighed by the significant potential party damage buff of CStrike. But we will run a comparison test and see.

    I'd be the first to admit it's a total crutch; basically allows you to make up for other issues, like moderate amounts of server lag, or very low dps/healing/partial groups. You do still need to facetank him a significant part of time (use CS to buff dmg then :) ), but you can also do things like mark and ITF without worrying at all about sub-second timing- while still doing the tank's primary jobs of holding rock solid aggro and not dying.

    It's also a nice carpal tunnel and finger cramp relief for the omg-this-is-taking-so-long fights... Just an optional tool in the toolbox that happens to work particularly well vs. the rooted-in-place boss mechanic. Lately have been doing a lot of encounters just to help gear up friends/guildies; kind of miss the 4k+ group 10 second kills...

  • fluffy6977fluffy6977 Member Posts: 291 Arc User
    Wanted to stop in and say thanks for this guide and all the testing yall do. I've been playing around with a higher damage dealing spec based on reflect and Conqueror path while still tanking (IL 3200, no guild boons whatsoever, Greater bondings and decent gear) on my "second main" GF and this guide helped me figure out some of the better combinations to run with it, which means a lot since I can't ACT on Xbox or copy my toon to preview and ACT there. Had to swap away to a modified version of this build for FBI/SVA/mSVA, but was able to tank everything else, even everything but CN without a healer, in no small part thanks to some of the ideas I got from you, so thanks!!
  • sulajplsulajpl Member Posts: 77 Arc User
    Lastly a new il150 gear was added. I highly recommend The Blackthorn :) . Additionally, a new upcoming last boon of 'The Cloaked Ascendancy' campaign looks amazing and will be definitely my pick. Sounds like:
    "When you deflect you have a chance to heal up to 8,000 hit points." :wink:
  • wilbur626wilbur626 Member Posts: 907 Arc User
    sulajpl said:

    Lastly a new il150 gear was added. I highly recommend The Blackthorn :) . Additionally, a new upcoming last boon of 'The Cloaked Ascendancy' campaign looks amazing and will be definitely my pick. Sounds like:
    "When you deflect you have a chance to heal up to 8,000 hit points." :wink:

    Why would you recommend the blackthorn?
    Elite Whaleboy
  • rjc9000rjc9000 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,351 Arc User
    wilbur626 said:

    sulajpl said:

    Lastly a new il150 gear was added. I highly recommend The Blackthorn :) . Additionally, a new upcoming last boon of 'The Cloaked Ascendancy' campaign looks amazing and will be definitely my pick. Sounds like:
    "When you deflect you have a chance to heal up to 8,000 hit points." :wink:

    Why would you recommend the blackthorn?
    The whole point of this build is to spread the reflection abilities.

    A good number of them are Deflect based, so you might as well add some self healing to your loadout for little additional cost.

  • wilbur626wilbur626 Member Posts: 907 Arc User
    rjc9000 said:

    wilbur626 said:

    sulajpl said:

    Lastly a new il150 gear was added. I highly recommend The Blackthorn :) . Additionally, a new upcoming last boon of 'The Cloaked Ascendancy' campaign looks amazing and will be definitely my pick. Sounds like:
    "When you deflect you have a chance to heal up to 8,000 hit points." :wink:

    Why would you recommend the blackthorn?
    The whole point of this build is to spread the reflection abilities.

    A good number of them are Deflect based, so you might as well add some self healing to your loadout for little additional cost.
    how does blackthorn add selfheal? It has a nice deflect roll, but the 100 dmg to attacker seems worthless compared to other helms ?
    Elite Whaleboy
  • rjc9000rjc9000 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,351 Arc User
    wilbur626 said:

    rjc9000 said:

    wilbur626 said:

    sulajpl said:

    Lastly a new il150 gear was added. I highly recommend The Blackthorn :) . Additionally, a new upcoming last boon of 'The Cloaked Ascendancy' campaign looks amazing and will be definitely my pick. Sounds like:
    "When you deflect you have a chance to heal up to 8,000 hit points." :wink:

    Why would you recommend the blackthorn?
    The whole point of this build is to spread the reflection abilities.

    A good number of them are Deflect based, so you might as well add some self healing to your loadout for little additional cost.
    how does blackthorn add selfheal? It has a nice deflect roll, but the 100 dmg to attacker seems worthless compared to other helms ?
    Oh, I misread the previous quote, lmao. The self heal comes from the new campaign. That probably has an ICD, or PvP is going to be super imbalanced.

    Anyways, the Blackthorn still fits in with the build's idea: to spread as much reflecting procs (and damage) as possible, even of the damage itself rather poor.

  • dread4moordread4moor Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,148 Arc User
    edited February 2017
    @fluffy6977 thanks for the kind words.
    Full disclosure, the authors of this build (just a Protector build, btw, not a tank guide) are not true Theorycrafters.
    We tested the build, of course, but full credit given to datasmiths like @michela123 and the late great @Kaelac whose analysis methods we frequently reference.
    For true tank guides we recommend the works of @grimah, Fatmushroom and @rjc9000.
    Edit:
    Also, totally agree about modification for different content. First few times we tried FBI on this build we got destroyed!
    Incoming damage is just insane in those opening fights. The key IMO is timing and continual movement in FBI... especially when giants charge! Immediately strafe to anticipate a boulder through. Deadly.
    JrUzbQw.jpg?1
    I am Took.
    "Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
  • dread4moordread4moor Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,148 Arc User
    @sulajpl Thanks for the feedback.
    That Blackthorn sounds promising. Deflect triggers are always good for this build. Doug and I are on the preview, but haven't seen Blackthorn yet. Need to check the ICD timer on it. Thanks.
    JrUzbQw.jpg?1
    I am Took.
    "Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
  • dread4moordread4moor Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,148 Arc User
    edited February 2017
    Was PMed for more examples of RedRef layering and "extreme application" of RedRef.
    Here is a 39min Fangbreaker Island run on Test Bowser.
    We see a wide variety of extremely efficient RedRef companion active powers (Blacksmith “ForgeFire”, Shadowdemon “The Darkness”, Rustmonster “Rust”), Boons (Fey Thistle, Frozen Reflection, Icy Aggression, Cold Shoulder, Augmented Thayan Bastion), and equipment (Orcus Ring “Mighty Blow”).
    As you can see, the extreme application of RedRef results in nearly continuous flow of passive buffs, debuffs and damage.
    Damage is low volume/high frequency: exactly what we want for maintaining whole-room aggro (our #1 job).

    FYI, build updated.
    BTW , Doug and I are testing Bowser IV in Mod 11 on preview server.
    Alot of the build will have to be rewritten [sigh], but RedRef will be alive and well in Mod 11.

    So, "Tank style #3" survives. Shields up, turtles.
    Post edited by dread4moor on
    JrUzbQw.jpg?1
    I am Took.
    "Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
  • rjc9000rjc9000 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,351 Arc User
    edited February 2017

    https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Zj8bHbB_4lghR3ppA7fypDNuiYhjsc9gIBFMkOTebPI/edit

    Was PMed for more examples of RedRef layering and "extreme application" of RedRef.
    Here is a 39min Fangbreaker Island run on Test Bowser.
    We see a wide variety of extremely efficient RedRef companion active powers (Blacksmith “ForgeFire”, Shadowdemon “The Darkness”, Rustmonster “Rust”), Boons (Fey Thistle, Frozen Reflection, Icy Aggression, Cold Shoulder, Augmented Thayan Bastion), and equipment (Orcus Ring “Mighty Blow”).
    As you can see, the extreme application of RedRef results in nearly continuous flow of passive buffs, debuffs and damage.
    Damage is low volume/high frequency: exactly what we want for maintaining whole-room aggro (our #1 job).

    FYI, build updated.
    BTW , Doug and I are testing Bowser IV in Mod 11 on preview server.
    Alot of the build will have to be rewritten [sigh], but RedRef will be alive and well in Mod 11.

    So, "Tank style #3" survives. Shields up, turtles.

    Dread, that's the sharing link, ie, one you'd send to Doug or Tony for grammatical repairs/writing revamps.

    If you republish the doc, the link in the original post should update with your updated guide.

    Also, I'm surprised no mention of Tiefling. Its ability scores are mediocre, but spreading that -5% damage debuff via KV is delicious.

  • maatmonsmaatmons Member Posts: 58 Arc User
    So, I see you give a “situational” recommendation to Shield Warrior's Wrath, but no mention of Trample the Fallen. Is there a practical difference between the two? As far as I can tell, both of them give +20% damage pretty much all the time for this build.
  • rjc9000rjc9000 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,351 Arc User
    maatmons said:

    So, I see you give a “situational” recommendation to Shield Warrior's Wrath, but no mention of Trample the Fallen. Is there a practical difference between the two? As far as I can tell, both of them give +20% damage pretty much all the time for this build.

    Both have their uses, but the main difference is how you activate both.

    Trample's damage boost scales with your CC effect, so something like Knee Breaker gives you good uptime, whereas something like Griffon's Wrath will give you limited Trample uptime. IVs can just slap Knee Breaker on a boss and then focus on shielding/applying at wills without having to worry about the buff uptime.

    Shield Warrior's Wrath gives you 20% damage bonus at Rank 4 with five stacks, but the catch is getting hit 5 times. Some bosses attack so slowly that your team will burn the boss before you get even 3 stacks. The inverse can occur on mobs: get hit a few times while shielding and using KV, and you'll get 5 stacks of Shield Warrior in no time.

  • dread4moordread4moor Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,148 Arc User
    edited February 2017
    @rjc9000
    "Dread, that's the sharing link, ie, one you'd send to Doug or Tony for grammatical repairs/writing revamps.

    If you republish the doc, the link in the original post should update with your updated guide.

    Also, I'm surprised no mention of Tiefling. Its ability scores are mediocre, but spreading that -5% damage debuff via KV is delicious."

    Removed the bad link, thanks. The ACT chart is added to the build anyway.

    Re: Tiefling... damage debuff is nice, but we read it does not work through KV. But if there is proof it DOES work w KV... that would be as powerful as Iron Guard.
    Delicious indeed!
    Do you know any Tiefling GFs who have tested it?

    @maatmons , Re: Trample...
    Kris ' answer is on point. We found SWW (constantly stacking w this build in a full Room) and Combat Superiority (buff and debuff against a boss) to be greater options for this build.

    Trample certainly would work (scaled) with RedRef CCs like the Guarded Assault Artifact power (slow). I only recorded it once and it paled in comparison to both Comb Sup and SWW.
    So, Trample is not bad. Just better options for us.
    For a Tact or Conq, Trample + combat superiority + Battle trample feat (threat + extra damage) + Combat Superiority Artifact power (threat) would be a great combo for DPS/Tanking.
    Not an option for spiked turtles, of course. We cannot get deep in the Conq tree and only have one free Passive slot.

    Edit: SWW does more damage, Combat Sup offers offense and defense, assuming neither threat ( enhanced mark) nor Permashield ( Shield Talent). are lacking, they are more likely choices then Trample for a Protector.
    JrUzbQw.jpg?1
    I am Took.
    "Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
  • wilbur626wilbur626 Member Posts: 907 Arc User



    and equipment (Orcus Ring “Mighty Blow”).

    So, "Tank style #3" survives. Shields up, turtles.

    Is this ring HAMSTER or worth using on tank ?
    Elite Whaleboy
  • rjc9000rjc9000 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,351 Arc User

    @rjc9000

    "Dread, that's the sharing link, ie, one you'd send to Doug or Tony for grammatical repairs/writing revamps.



    If you republish the doc, the link in the original post should update with your updated guide.



    Also, I'm surprised no mention of Tiefling. Its ability scores are mediocre, but spreading that -5% damage debuff via KV is delicious."



    Removed the bad link, thanks. The ACT chart is added to the build anyway.



    Re: Tiefling... damage debuff is nice, but we read it does not work through KV. But if there is proof it DOES work w KV... that would be as powerful as Iron Guard.

    Delicious indeed!

    Do you know any Tiefling GFs who have tested it?



    , Re: Trample...

    Kris ' answer is on point. We found SWW (constantly stacking w this build in a full Room) and Combat Superiority (buff and debuff against a boss) to be greater options for this build.



    Trample certainly would work (scaled) with RedRef CCs like the Guarded Assault Artifact power (slow). I only recorded it once and it paled in comparison to both Comb Sup and SWW.

    So, Trample is not bad. Just better options for us.

    For a Tact or Conq, Trample + combat superiority + Battle trample feat (threat + extra damage) + Combat Superiority Artifact power (threat) would be a great combo for DPS/Tanking.

    Not an option for spiked turtles, of course. We cannot get deep in the Conq tree and only have one free Passive slot.



    Edit: SWW does more damage, Combat Sup offers offense and defense, assuming neither threat ( enhanced mark) nor Permashield ( Shield Talent). are lacking, they are more likely choices then Trample for a Protector.

    Battle Trample is garbage, it does barely any damage. You might as well doublestack Crushing Pin + Fight on, or Crushing Pin + Daunting Challenge.

    I need to test KV + Tiefling (I'll probably hop onto preview at some point to give it a test). If not, the Tiefling debuff still puts it ahead of any other race for this build, since you can't always count on your teammates suckage to spread your effects.

    Lmao you can still call me Anri, it's what all my friends are doing.
    wilbur626 said:



    and equipment (Orcus Ring “Mighty Blow”).

    So, "Tank style #3" survives. Shields up, turtles.

    Is this ring HAMSTER or worth using on tank ?
    It's another reflection source, ie, something like Avalanche.

    It may not deal uber hax0r damage, but it's another reflection source from getting hit, which is part of this build's idea.

    (For any other build, the Orcus ring sucks.)

  • dread4moordread4moor Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,148 Arc User
    As GF fans know, the devs threw GFs as a dog biscuit with the this last patch:
    "Guardian Fighter
    Supremacy of Steel: This power no longer prevents AP gain while active."
    I assume this piece of code was similar to the DC Hallowed Ground AP generation block, hence it was done at the same time? Makes sense.
    That is a nice gesture... thanks.
    But SoS, unless feated with Overwhelming Impact (debuff) on a reflector build, is pretty worthless to anyone else.
    Still, the Bowsers of NWO thank you.
    SoS/Overwhelming Impact increased uptime greatly increases our debuff potential.
    We are still testing, but able to keep SoS up ~ 60% time so far.
    Not bad, but unsure of the overall debuff impact.

    The broken Protector Capstone Iron Guard should be a much higher priority. Everyone please repeatedly mention it in "bug" threads. Thanks.
    JrUzbQw.jpg?1
    I am Took.
    "Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
  • dread4moordread4moor Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,148 Arc User
    edited March 2017
    The new mod and patch combined with unfixed bugs (iron guard) have made Protector builds less viable and (game in general) less fun.
    As Doug and the other authors left the game due to Mod 10, I can't update it further, so asked moderators to disable. Taking a break from the game myself.

    I recommend the Tact build by @rjc9000 if you are looking for tank options.
    Good luck and cyan .
    Edit:
    Cyan is a bluish color. Meant "See ya"
    Also said "Mod 20" meant Mod 10. Mod 10 felt like it lasted 10 mods, so...cya.
    JrUzbQw.jpg?1
    I am Took.
    "Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
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