:your example (kalina) of "walking and stoppping .2 secs just" got debunked, sorry for simple and logic reasons and, also, by actual in game mechanics.:
umm that was YOUR SUGGESTION .2 second delay WAS YOUR SUGGESTION LOL and idea dude and I stated many reasons why it is not a good idea and you failed to address that lol you also failed to get my sarcasm failing to address it simply means you chose to give up ground on that good point and ignore it
again nice try ....go back and edit your post now to make it look like you did not say it lol
lucky you... you can shift and cancel power mr skilled aimed shot lol that is worse then not getting punished for 1 chill stack lol dont you agree
in conclusion your idea about a .2 second delay after jump in pvp and PVE is not well thought out at all ..\
Ps there are no bonding pets in normal pvp domination either and pve enemies dont complain abut how many dodges you have or that you are jumping or animation cancelling
I think on the original classes they tried to balance casting time with power effectiveness /root however when ranger came out the got lazy on the animation budget and made all ranger power cast super fast without regard to it power or effectiveness ...a lot of non pvp Cw power tend to root you longer tho yes I do think encounter rooting should be tied to is effectiveness and damage and cooldown times..
also skilled aimed shots (target less)are very good for targeting invisible opponents if you can anticipate where they are
yes i AGREE stamina regen or stamina gain has diminishing returns if recovery and stamina gain stats ARE ALREADY SUPER HIGH
also there is a campaign boon that also adds more recovery inversely proportional to how little stamina you have a very weird boon i know
Post edited by kalina311 on
0
demonmongerMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,350Arc User
Hey don't bicker back and forth or this thread will get closed... it's an imporant topic.
Again I'm all for letting everyone move and attack without stopping.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I hate paying taxes! Why must I pay thousands of dollars in taxes when everything I buy is taxed anyways!
1
kalina311Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 2,082Arc User
very simply if anybody makes a suggestion they should back it with facts or state why I am allowed to play devils advocate and challenge people that are rarely challenged that is what debate and forum input is about ..
@demonmonger , I wanna hear some details on how you mean moving and attacking without stopping; do you mean while jumping around or more like warlock's dreadtheft kinda walk and attack? Cause I'll say the latter would be an interesting take on the game only if applied to at-wills (putting it on all encounters might be a bit much).
Some powers can be cast while moving and you can continue to move and sustain . Like warlocks for example.. .
Maybe everyone should be able to run / move while doing attacks.
Problem solved
This would make combat in pvp a lot smoother and more fun to play. I'd love it if they did this. Its stupid that you have to stop to cast attacks to begin with.
Post edited by trgluestickz on
-- PVP Rogue, --[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]-- ---------------------------------------------------------------- Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin) Ingame Handle: trgluestickz Discord Name: Hurricane🌀Marigolds#2563 Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression Alliances: Imperium & Order of the Silent Shroud Platform: PC
So basically good pvpers are forced to jump around looking like idiots. That's my problem. The game rewards players for bunny hopping. It should be a penalty, not a reward.
While its clear you personally don't like the asthetics of jumping around in pvp, understand that asthetic preference is not a good enough reason to nerf something/penalize it.
I have included a pvp video from mod 1 of the most epic way I've ever seen jumping used. If this doesn't change your perception, most likely nothing will
Also, you aren't forced to do it, if you prefer a less active playstyle where you don't move around as much, less active playstyles do work, its just more risky and makes it easier to miss if you are melee. If you are worried about it, you could also just build yourself to be really tanky so you can survive most hits anyway or simply do a lot more dodging than jumping.
Post edited by trgluestickz on
-- PVP Rogue, --[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]-- ---------------------------------------------------------------- Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin) Ingame Handle: trgluestickz Discord Name: Hurricane🌀Marigolds#2563 Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression Alliances: Imperium & Order of the Silent Shroud Platform: PC
0
icyphishMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,255Arc User
Any veteran PvPer should know the value of movements and if you think people just bunny hop to look like silly then you still have a long way to go in PvP. Here I will give a few reasons why people bunny hops
1. When a GF keeps his shield up, all frontal attacks are pretty much nullified, if you teleport behind someone then cast an encounter, it will take about 1 second for the dodge/sprint to take you there, then another 0.5~1 second if the encounter you cast takes a long time (for example IBS), if you do this, most of the GFs would have easily 1.5~2 seconds to turn their back, then block your attack again. However, if you jump from the front/side of them to their back, and cast the IBS in mid air, the whole process takes only about 1 second, this makes it a lot harder to block, this is especially even harder for them if u move very fast and hop across them from different directions hitting with very fast at-wills.
2. Some skills/encounters cannot be casted without a target, what does that mean? That means if you jump behind them, they will NOT be able to cast their encounters until they turn around and have their pointer on you, this would efficentively give you more time whacking them, and them less time attacking you since they have to keep focusing the pointer back to you before they can attack again.
3. Some skills takes 0.5~1 second to cast/hit the target, if you bunny hop around your target or even moving in and out, this will mean those skills will become very hard to hit you, because by the time the skill has finished casting, you are already at a different location making them miss their attacks.
4. Some skills are stationed and has a short attack range (e.g IBS, Griffon's Wrath, Anvil...etc) by jumping to your target and casting the skill in mid air, meaning you essentially making your "stationed" attack a moving attack, successfully extending the attack range and making it easier to hit the target.
There are more reasons why mastering movements/bunny hop is an essential step in becoming a stronger pvper, but why not you first learn to respect the others and study why people do that instead of just calling people "foolish", "idiots"?
Like a previous poster, I don't see any difference in PvE regarding AoE-attacks, whether I'm jumping or not?
Or maybe my incredible (in a bad way) ping just makes me terrible at timing it...
There are some ways to utilize jumping in PVE but its more heavily used for pvp. If you are subject to a lot of lag, jumping becomes significantly less useful until the lag clears up a little.
-- PVP Rogue, --[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]-- ---------------------------------------------------------------- Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin) Ingame Handle: trgluestickz Discord Name: Hurricane🌀Marigolds#2563 Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression Alliances: Imperium & Order of the Silent Shroud Platform: PC
Your list is more specific than what i wrote on page 1, but its good to see other PvPers understand PvP mechanics beyond "hes jumping to be MLG."
Personally i hate the encounters getting canceled when someone moves but thats why u gotta be jumping to chase them lol.
LGPG Leader Indy - XB1 & PS4 - GF xeV Indy - PS4 - TR Nde - XB1 - HR GT: its indy time PSN: itsindytime Twitch: indygoinlive The Kanye West of Neverwinter
0
tonyvincentMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 123Arc User
So much good stuff said by some people.
Sharing the insight in the dodge mechanic, bunny hopping, and their use would hopefully help people in surviving in PvP. I am no big personality, but I consider bunny hopping and especially dodge to be the most crucial defensive mechanics in PvP.
First off, I don't think bunny hopping gives damage and CC immunity. I am explaining that below. Jumping without no reason behind it makes you more prone to push and knock powers.
I thought I'd share some of what I know of the dodge mechanic and bunny hopping: - As mentioned, jumping between encounters help in repositioning and prematurely activating powers because you are covering distance at the same time.
- As mentioned, dodging helps in animation cancelling. i.e. cancelling Wheel root and DCs' Shield to mention some.
- Jumping seems to provide more free movement in PvP, as activaing powers often root you to the ground.
- Jumping helps in being harder to hit for non-lockable powers. Though, you could just hold down ctrl to lock in. Quite nice against GWFs as most of their damage comes from at-wills, which slows their movement.
- Jumping between dodges help in covering distance and repositioning on node while being immune to damage and CC. If you didn't know, there is a time frame after the dodge where you are still immune to damage and CC, yet you are free to move or activate an encounter. i.e. You can dodge into smoke and dodge out of smoke. You can also dodge into smoke, jump, and dodge out of smoke. You can take it a bit further, whereas you dodge into smoke, pop i.e. icy terrain, and dodge out again.
- You can also fake powers by cancelling powers with dodge. i.e. cancel Oppressive Force and the animation and sound will still play, which may fool i.e. a GF with shield up.
There are more uses and interactions with dodge though. Though, let's face it, bunny hopping makes a smoother gameplay in PvP.
I'm pretty sure bunny-hopping is just an OCD mechanic by players since they saw other players doing it. It doesn't make you immune and makes you more vulnerable to stuns since its harder to dodge while jumping mid-air
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kalina311Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 2,082Arc User
I'm pretty sure bunny-hopping is just an OCD mechanic by players since they saw other players doing it. It doesn't make you immune and makes you more vulnerable to stuns since its harder to dodge while jumping mid-air
you might want to read the whole post "pretty sure" is not sure lol
That's the thing, I'm not 100% sure because I haven't performed extensive testing, but from everything I've seen and experienced, bunny-hopping doesn't add extra immunity frames
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kalina311Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 2,082Arc User
depends what you definition of immunity frame is getting slightly out of range so a player cant activate and ability or misses is not a frame of immunity but rather a brief delay ...
also other benefits were listed as well
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tonyvincentMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 123Arc User
Ye, sorry, it's more of a delay. I wasn't trying to make a summary of all the points in the thread, though some people don't know about i.e. the delay.
Can we do something about the bunny hopping? Make jumping use stamina? Right now it has a built in dodge mechanic. People are currently exploiting the mechanic and jumping around everywhere. CW's jumping with elven battle have infinite stamina for infinite dodges. Is this as intended? It's kind of silly the the game encourages a bunch of high level pvpers to jump around like morons on the battle field.
Solution: Make jumping use stamina. 2 jumps and your bar is gone? or just remove the dodge mechanic from jumping. If anything someone attacked in the midair should get proned like they are knocked off a mount or something. Just saying.
I've tried bunny hopping in this game. it does nothing. lol. at least that's my experience.. not like other games where bunny hopping was a lifesaver.
Interestingly, some of the best PVE CW's use jump mechanics as well. often you can move out of red spots in dungeons without wasting a dodge. This is what seems to be the hangup for some people. If you would simply experiment with what is being discussed you will begin to see why people use this mechanic.
When jumping backwards or to the side you create quick distance without wasting your dodges, teleports, or other defensive mechanisms. Many classes are able to cast or attack in the process of doing so as well. If you see you are going to be struck while hopping then you can use your dodge but often you can simply "jump" out of range while still fighting.
There have been lots of descriptions of the uses of this mechanic, many players chiming in here have years of experience with these tactics. I would suggest that if you are unfamiliar with jumping while fighting you practice with it. Practice "dodging" with it, by creating distance, or "side-stepping" attacks just by jumping. Literally the best way to learn how to do it effectively is to go out with a friend in OW and 1v1 only using jumps, at wills, and no dailies. This will teach you how to use it as a defensive mechanism so that you can add it to your repertoire. Then you can learn to save your dodges for CC or Dailies.
On ambush rings: "How would you like PVE if all the mobs were invisible?"
Jumping is beneficial, but in no way acts as a dodge.
I'm not sure if we're on the same page and using different terminology or if you're just wrong. If you cast while attempting to walk backwards you can't. Try casting ray of frost as a cw or cloud of steel as a TR while "walking" backwards. It can't be done. You stand still. Now attempt (and I realize this does take a bit of practice and skill) jumping backwards and jump casting.
Now you're attacking while creating distance. You're building stacks of chill or putting an offhand slow on a PVPer while moving. Thus they are slowing down while you're still moving. A GWF will then miss with sure strike, a GF will no longer hit you with cleave. It is essentially faux "dodging" by moving out of distance. HRs can jump and put constricting or hindering shot on you while still moving. GWFs can jump and hit you with the third hit of sure strike, skipping the first two, which does more damage.
It is the ONLY way to play for PVP. If you don't learn this basic mechanic and tout it as aesthetics or stupid or hackey then you are simply misinformed and will never play to your full potential.
Now what I think you're saying here is that if someone locks on to you with an encounter, you can't "dodge" it by jumping and that is completely correct. However many players seem to still not understand or utilize jumping as an added measure of movement while fighting without stopping to walk. This is massively important to the player who want's to improve.
Movement is absolutely key in making the most of your PVP play. The players who have posted here who are trying to tell you this have loads of experience and are trying to help those who read this forum post out to become better players.
On ambush rings: "How would you like PVE if all the mobs were invisible?"
0
mamalion1234Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,415Arc User
Jumping is beneficial, but in no way acts as a dodge.
I'm not sure if we're on the same page and using different terminology or if you're just wrong. If you cast while attempting to walk backwards you can't. Try casting ray of frost as a cw or cloud of steel as a TR while "walking" backwards. It can't be done. You stand still. Now attempt (and I realize this does take a bit of practice and skill) jumping backwards and jump casting.
Now you're attacking while creating distance. You're building stacks of chill or putting an offhand slow on a PVPer while moving. Thus they are slowing down while you're still moving. A GWF will then miss with sure strike, a GF will no longer hit you with cleave. It is essentially faux "dodging" by moving out of distance. HRs can jump and put constricting or hindering shot on you while still moving. GWFs can jump and hit you with the third hit of sure strike, skipping the first two, which does more damage.
It is the ONLY way to play for PVP. If you don't learn this basic mechanic and tout it as aesthetics or stupid or hackey then you are simply misinformed and will never play to your full potential.
Now what I think you're saying here is that if someone locks on to you with an encounter, you can't "dodge" it by jumping and that is completely correct. However many players seem to still not understand or utilize jumping as an added measure of movement while fighting without stopping to walk. This is massively important to the player who want's to improve.
Movement is absolutely key in making the most of your PVP play. The players who have posted here who are trying to tell you this have loads of experience and are trying to help those who read this forum post out to become better players.
DID i read correctly skipping the first two hits of sure strike with jumping? magic missile which has similar function on jumping do not skip the 2 first hit. also the chilling cloud the same.
Ok understood, jumping=skill but that does not change the fact that I HATED those CW´s jumping arround because it looks redicules, especially if I am 40 feet at distance and dot them to death Maybe that´s not about high end PVP, talking about player who go on jumping even standing on their homenode
@morenthar I didn't mean that as harshly as it apparently came across but if you think bunny hopping isn't currently useful then I must also agree to disagree for reasons afforementioned.
On ambush rings: "How would you like PVE if all the mobs were invisible?"
0
demonmongerMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,350Arc User
Comments
Maybe everyone should be able to run / move while doing attacks.
Problem solved
:your example (kalina) of "walking and stoppping .2 secs just" got debunked, sorry for simple and logic reasons and, also, by actual in game mechanics.:
umm that was YOUR SUGGESTION .2 second delay WAS YOUR SUGGESTION LOL and idea dude and I stated many reasons why it is not a good idea and you failed to address that lol you also failed to get my sarcasm
failing to address it simply means you chose to give up ground on that good point and ignore it
again nice try ....go back and edit your post now to make it look like you did not say it lol
lucky you... you can shift and cancel power mr skilled aimed shot lol that is worse then not getting punished for 1 chill stack lol dont you agree
in conclusion your idea about a .2 second delay after jump in pvp and PVE is not well thought out at all ..\
Ps there are no bonding pets in normal pvp domination either and pve enemies dont complain abut how many dodges you have or that you are jumping or animation cancelling
I think on the original classes they tried to balance casting time with power effectiveness /root
however when ranger came out the got lazy on the animation budget and made all ranger power cast super fast without regard to it power or effectiveness ...a lot of non pvp Cw power tend to root you longer tho
yes I do think encounter rooting should be tied to is effectiveness and damage and cooldown times..
also skilled aimed shots (target less)are very good for targeting invisible opponents if you can anticipate where they are
yes i AGREE stamina regen or stamina gain has diminishing returns if recovery and stamina gain stats ARE ALREADY SUPER HIGH
also there is a campaign boon that also adds more recovery inversely proportional to how little stamina you have
a very weird boon i know
Again I'm all for letting everyone move and attack without stopping.
very simply if anybody makes a suggestion they should back it with facts or state why
I am allowed to play devils advocate and challenge people that are rarely challenged
that is what debate and forum input is about ..
PVP Rogue,
--[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]--
----------------------------------------------------------------
Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin)
Ingame Handle: trgluestickz
Discord Name: Hurricane🌀Marigolds#2563
Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression
Alliances: Imperium & Order of the Silent Shroud
Platform: PC
I have included a pvp video from mod 1 of the most epic way I've ever seen jumping used. If this doesn't change your perception, most likely nothing will
Also, you aren't forced to do it, if you prefer a less active playstyle where you don't move around as much, less active playstyles do work, its just more risky and makes it easier to miss if you are melee. If you are worried about it, you could also just build yourself to be really tanky so you can survive most hits anyway or simply do a lot more dodging than jumping.
PVP Rogue,
--[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]--
----------------------------------------------------------------
Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin)
Ingame Handle: trgluestickz
Discord Name: Hurricane🌀Marigolds#2563
Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression
Alliances: Imperium & Order of the Silent Shroud
Platform: PC
@patcherrkm
Any veteran PvPer should know the value of movements and if you think people just bunny hop to look like silly then you still have a long way to go in PvP. Here I will give a few reasons why people bunny hops
1. When a GF keeps his shield up, all frontal attacks are pretty much nullified, if you teleport behind someone then cast an encounter, it will take about 1 second for the dodge/sprint to take you there, then another 0.5~1 second if the encounter you cast takes a long time (for example IBS), if you do this, most of the GFs would have easily 1.5~2 seconds to turn their back, then block your attack again. However, if you jump from the front/side of them to their back, and cast the IBS in mid air, the whole process takes only about 1 second, this makes it a lot harder to block, this is especially even harder for them if u move very fast and hop across them from different directions hitting with very fast at-wills.
2. Some skills/encounters cannot be casted without a target, what does that mean? That means if you jump behind them, they will NOT be able to cast their encounters until they turn around and have their pointer on you, this would efficentively give you more time whacking them, and them less time attacking you since they have to keep focusing the pointer back to you before they can attack again.
3. Some skills takes 0.5~1 second to cast/hit the target, if you bunny hop around your target or even moving in and out, this will mean those skills will become very hard to hit you, because by the time the skill has finished casting, you are already at a different location making them miss their attacks.
4. Some skills are stationed and has a short attack range (e.g IBS, Griffon's Wrath, Anvil...etc) by jumping to your target and casting the skill in mid air, meaning you essentially making your "stationed" attack a moving attack, successfully extending the attack range and making it easier to hit the target.
There are more reasons why mastering movements/bunny hop is an essential step in becoming a stronger pvper, but why not you first learn to respect the others and study why people do that instead of just calling people "foolish", "idiots"?
Author of GWF Speed Demon PvP Build (Mod 11) <- Click to reveal the Speedy Beast! >:)
PVP Rogue,
--[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]--
----------------------------------------------------------------
Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin)
Ingame Handle: trgluestickz
Discord Name: Hurricane🌀Marigolds#2563
Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression
Alliances: Imperium & Order of the Silent Shroud
Platform: PC
Your list is more specific than what i wrote on page 1, but its good to see other PvPers understand PvP mechanics beyond "hes jumping to be MLG."
Personally i hate the encounters getting canceled when someone moves but thats why u gotta be jumping to chase them lol.
Indy - XB1 & PS4 - GF
xeV Indy - PS4 - TR
Nde - XB1 - HR
GT: its indy time
PSN: itsindytime
Twitch: indygoinlive
The Kanye West of Neverwinter
Sharing the insight in the dodge mechanic, bunny hopping, and their use would hopefully help people in surviving in PvP. I am no big personality, but I consider bunny hopping and especially dodge to be the most crucial defensive mechanics in PvP.
First off, I don't think bunny hopping gives damage and CC immunity. I am explaining that below. Jumping without no reason behind it makes you more prone to push and knock powers.
I thought I'd share some of what I know of the dodge mechanic and bunny hopping:
- As mentioned, jumping between encounters help in repositioning and prematurely activating powers because you are covering distance at the same time.
- As mentioned, dodging helps in animation cancelling. i.e. cancelling Wheel root and DCs' Shield to mention some.
- Jumping seems to provide more free movement in PvP, as activaing powers often root you to the ground.
- Jumping helps in being harder to hit for non-lockable powers. Though, you could just hold down ctrl to lock in. Quite nice against GWFs as most of their damage comes from at-wills, which slows their movement.
- Jumping between dodges help in covering distance and repositioning on node while being immune to damage and CC. If you didn't know, there is a time frame after the dodge where you are still immune to damage and CC, yet you are free to move or activate an encounter. i.e. You can dodge into smoke and dodge out of smoke. You can also dodge into smoke, jump, and dodge out of smoke. You can take it a bit further, whereas you dodge into smoke, pop i.e. icy terrain, and dodge out again.
- You can also fake powers by cancelling powers with dodge. i.e. cancel Oppressive Force and the animation and sound will still play, which may fool i.e. a GF with shield up.
There are more uses and interactions with dodge though. Though, let's face it, bunny hopping makes a smoother gameplay in PvP.
is not a frame of immunity but rather a brief delay ...
also other benefits were listed as well
ymmv..
When jumping backwards or to the side you create quick distance without wasting your dodges, teleports, or other defensive mechanisms. Many classes are able to cast or attack in the process of doing so as well. If you see you are going to be struck while hopping then you can use your dodge but often you can simply "jump" out of range while still fighting.
There have been lots of descriptions of the uses of this mechanic, many players chiming in here have years of experience with these tactics. I would suggest that if you are unfamiliar with jumping while fighting you practice with it. Practice "dodging" with it, by creating distance, or "side-stepping" attacks just by jumping. Literally the best way to learn how to do it effectively is to go out with a friend in OW and 1v1 only using jumps, at wills, and no dailies. This will teach you how to use it as a defensive mechanism so that you can add it to your repertoire. Then you can learn to save your dodges for CC or Dailies.
Now you're attacking while creating distance. You're building stacks of chill or putting an offhand slow on a PVPer while moving. Thus they are slowing down while you're still moving. A GWF will then miss with sure strike, a GF will no longer hit you with cleave. It is essentially faux "dodging" by moving out of distance. HRs can jump and put constricting or hindering shot on you while still moving. GWFs can jump and hit you with the third hit of sure strike, skipping the first two, which does more damage.
It is the ONLY way to play for PVP. If you don't learn this basic mechanic and tout it as aesthetics or stupid or hackey then you are simply misinformed and will never play to your full potential.
Now what I think you're saying here is that if someone locks on to you with an encounter, you can't "dodge" it by jumping and that is completely correct. However many players seem to still not understand or utilize jumping as an added measure of movement while fighting without stopping to walk. This is massively important to the player who want's to improve.
Movement is absolutely key in making the most of your PVP play. The players who have posted here who are trying to tell you this have loads of experience and are trying to help those who read this forum post out to become better players.
magic missile which has similar function on jumping do not skip the 2 first hit.
also the chilling cloud the same.
but that does not change the fact that I HATED those CW´s jumping arround because it looks redicules, especially if I am 40 feet at distance and dot them to death
Maybe that´s not about high end PVP, talking about player who go on jumping even standing on their homenode
Sigh....
@morenthar
♡