@gregg1230, understandable that you are frustrated!
I recommend evaluating your build/stats, 60%+ base DR, 8K recovery, defensive boons, defensive auras/encounters/dailies when tanking bosses. If you need any r8 for recovery/defense, shoot me a game mail @nic1985 and i'll be more than happy to spare you some or chat me up about build/rotations.
**** I can't remember off the top of my head and honestly, I am not going to hop onto preview to test it as I am taking a break from the game. The point is, with stuff like feytouched etc, you can build a tank pally if that is what you want to do, you just won't be able to tank all the content in the game with 0 investment into tanking, which is the way it should be. Up till now, tanking on pally has literally been the most mindless thing in this game and it is a good thing that this has been changed.
****
And what exactly is this investment into tanking in regard to a Paladin? Lets see, there are two things you can build for as far as investments goes - health and DR and neither of those can save even a 4k Paladin from instant death unless he runs 2-3 defensive encounters and has stacked dailies together with a DC.. So again what investment - high deflect? Your comment makes it sound as if the pally can tank just about anything as long as the player builds tanky and that is simply untrue. The other tank is able to withstand dmg via 2 layers of DR. All a pally tank can do is reach DR cap and stack HP.. and thats not enough.
It is fairly easy to work out, there is more than 1 way to mitigate damage.
1) DR 2) HP 3) Deflect 4) Multiplicative DR layers 5) Damage Debuffs
Feytouched is a ~28% damage debuff, there are pets that debuff the enemies damage, there are skills that reduce the enemies damage. The first 2 are optional, you can tank without them. Take a look at your skills, instead of trying to use the same skills, try using different skills. Your problem with OP shield is that it isn't a separate layer of DR? Shield of Faith is. The fact that you don't even know what your own skills do, about the different layers of damage mitigation available to OP, shows that you haven't really done any testing at all.
As for GF, AC DC and other stuff, I honestly expect the pally is just the first class that will be looked at this way. Quit whining, start thinking about how to change your build post change. There are OPs who have already adapted, then there are those who are sitting around waiting for others to explain it to them because they are too afraid to test things and work it out for themselves.
" I dont know what my skills do, I dont know what rotation to use" ... You assume too much man, its not worth my time to try and talk it out with you. Regardless the devs wont change anything based on our arguments here.
PS: how did you fabricate that 28% in damage debuff from feytouched?
Row, row, row your boat, Gently down the stream.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
My OP is a little under 2800 IL. I formerly tanked Orcus, and dragons in the stronghold with no problems. Since 10.5, I repeatedly die on Orcus. Yesterday I repeatedly died on the red dragon...easiest of the dragons imo. I am feeling really frustrated with this change. I can't bring myself to accept invites to epic dungeons. I am actually finding it hard to want to log in. I am mixing up my encounter powers and trying to find a new tanking solution. I wonder how EDEMO and LOL is going to pan out. I don't really enjoy playing other classes, but now I don't enjoy playing my OP. Perhaps it is time for me to move to a different game. I am going to have to think on this one.
Of course you die. Everyone on the forums who says the Paladin is "fine" currently is either sitting at high Item Level or doesnt even play the class. The message should be loud and clear - nobody gives a damn about under geared players in small, underdeveloped guilds. Me, I run a fairly well geared pally and I am part of a small, underdeveloped guild. Despite that I did run a successful CN and I have found ways to survive Orcus. Does that mean its all fine? Heck no.
Post edited by emilemo on
Row, row, row your boat, Gently down the stream.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
I think the point he was trying to make EMILEMO is that he used to be able to. and that one change makes him unable. He may not know the reason behind it... or the way to fix it. That does not make it untrue or that it automatically defines him as unskilled. The better response would have been. This is how I played.. this is how i adjusted and now.. I am doing this because of... This is the op board after all, I see no harm in being helpful as opposed to dismissive. Although, I did earlier in this thread post my adjustments. There may be a slight indication of being a bit slow on his behalf.
I think the point he was trying to make EMILEMO is that he used to be able to. and that one change makes him unable. He may not know the reason behind it... or the way to fix it. That does not make it untrue or that it automatically defines him as unskilled. The better response would have been. This is how I played.. this is how i adjusted and now.. I am doing this because of... This is the op board after all, I see no harm in being helpful as opposed to dismissive. Although, I did earlier in this thread post my adjustments. There may be a slight indication of being a bit slow on his behalf.
If you're referring to me reply to gregg1230# then it seems you misinterpreted what i wrote.
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thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
**** I can't remember off the top of my head and honestly, I am not going to hop onto preview to test it as I am taking a break from the game. The point is, with stuff like feytouched etc, you can build a tank pally if that is what you want to do, you just won't be able to tank all the content in the game with 0 investment into tanking, which is the way it should be. Up till now, tanking on pally has literally been the most mindless thing in this game and it is a good thing that this has been changed.
****
And what exactly is this investment into tanking in regard to a Paladin? Lets see, there are two things you can build for as far as investments goes - health and DR and neither of those can save even a 4k Paladin from instant death unless he runs 2-3 defensive encounters and has stacked dailies together with a DC.. So again what investment - high deflect? Your comment makes it sound as if the pally can tank just about anything as long as the player builds tanky and that is simply untrue. The other tank is able to withstand dmg via 2 layers of DR. All a pally tank can do is reach DR cap and stack HP.. and thats not enough.
It is fairly easy to work out, there is more than 1 way to mitigate damage.
1) DR 2) HP 3) Deflect 4) Multiplicative DR layers 5) Damage Debuffs
Feytouched is a ~28% damage debuff, there are pets that debuff the enemies damage, there are skills that reduce the enemies damage. The first 2 are optional, you can tank without them. Take a look at your skills, instead of trying to use the same skills, try using different skills. Your problem with OP shield is that it isn't a separate layer of DR? Shield of Faith is. The fact that you don't even know what your own skills do, about the different layers of damage mitigation available to OP, shows that you haven't really done any testing at all.
As for GF, AC DC and other stuff, I honestly expect the pally is just the first class that will be looked at this way. Quit whining, start thinking about how to change your build post change. There are OPs who have already adapted, then there are those who are sitting around waiting for others to explain it to them because they are too afraid to test things and work it out for themselves.
" I dont know what my skills do, I dont know what rotation to use" ... You assume too much man, its not worth my time to try and talk it out with you. Regardless the devs wont change anything based on our arguments here.
PS: how did you fabricate that 28% in damage debuff from feytouched?
Instead of reading the tooltips, I went and I tested the debuff. It is roughly 28%.
**** I can't remember off the top of my head and honestly, I am not going to hop onto preview to test it as I am taking a break from the game. The point is, with stuff like feytouched etc, you can build a tank pally if that is what you want to do, you just won't be able to tank all the content in the game with 0 investment into tanking, which is the way it should be. Up till now, tanking on pally has literally been the most mindless thing in this game and it is a good thing that this has been changed.
****
And what exactly is this investment into tanking in regard to a Paladin? Lets see, there are two things you can build for as far as investments goes - health and DR and neither of those can save even a 4k Paladin from instant death unless he runs 2-3 defensive encounters and has stacked dailies together with a DC.. So again what investment - high deflect? Your comment makes it sound as if the pally can tank just about anything as long as the player builds tanky and that is simply untrue. The other tank is able to withstand dmg via 2 layers of DR. All a pally tank can do is reach DR cap and stack HP.. and thats not enough.
It is fairly easy to work out, there is more than 1 way to mitigate damage.
1) DR 2) HP 3) Deflect 4) Multiplicative DR layers 5) Damage Debuffs
Feytouched is a ~28% damage debuff, there are pets that debuff the enemies damage, there are skills that reduce the enemies damage. The first 2 are optional, you can tank without them. Take a look at your skills, instead of trying to use the same skills, try using different skills. Your problem with OP shield is that it isn't a separate layer of DR? Shield of Faith is. The fact that you don't even know what your own skills do, about the different layers of damage mitigation available to OP, shows that you haven't really done any testing at all.
As for GF, AC DC and other stuff, I honestly expect the pally is just the first class that will be looked at this way. Quit whining, start thinking about how to change your build post change. There are OPs who have already adapted, then there are those who are sitting around waiting for others to explain it to them because they are too afraid to test things and work it out for themselves.
" I dont know what my skills do, I dont know what rotation to use" ... You assume too much man, its not worth my time to try and talk it out with you. Regardless the devs wont change anything based on our arguments here.
PS: how did you fabricate that 28% in damage debuff from feytouched?
Instead of reading the tooltips, I went and I tested the debuff. It is roughly 28%.
As great as that number based on your tests sounds, it still doesn't stop Orcus from killing me or anyone else unless we are stacking dailies. Im running with a trans fey in CN. Its not that hard to understand what my point is right? Its simple, 2 tanks = 2 ways of surviving heavy hit. Currently one of the tanks is severely handicapped in surviving said hits without using all defensive encounters and stacking dailies. And yes I am talking about average item level as it should be the norm around which they balance.
Row, row, row your boat, Gently down the stream.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
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thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
**** I can't remember off the top of my head and honestly, I am not going to hop onto preview to test it as I am taking a break from the game. The point is, with stuff like feytouched etc, you can build a tank pally if that is what you want to do, you just won't be able to tank all the content in the game with 0 investment into tanking, which is the way it should be. Up till now, tanking on pally has literally been the most mindless thing in this game and it is a good thing that this has been changed.
****
And what exactly is this investment into tanking in regard to a Paladin? Lets see, there are two things you can build for as far as investments goes - health and DR and neither of those can save even a 4k Paladin from instant death unless he runs 2-3 defensive encounters and has stacked dailies together with a DC.. So again what investment - high deflect? Your comment makes it sound as if the pally can tank just about anything as long as the player builds tanky and that is simply untrue. The other tank is able to withstand dmg via 2 layers of DR. All a pally tank can do is reach DR cap and stack HP.. and thats not enough.
It is fairly easy to work out, there is more than 1 way to mitigate damage.
1) DR 2) HP 3) Deflect 4) Multiplicative DR layers 5) Damage Debuffs
Feytouched is a ~28% damage debuff, there are pets that debuff the enemies damage, there are skills that reduce the enemies damage. The first 2 are optional, you can tank without them. Take a look at your skills, instead of trying to use the same skills, try using different skills. Your problem with OP shield is that it isn't a separate layer of DR? Shield of Faith is. The fact that you don't even know what your own skills do, about the different layers of damage mitigation available to OP, shows that you haven't really done any testing at all.
As for GF, AC DC and other stuff, I honestly expect the pally is just the first class that will be looked at this way. Quit whining, start thinking about how to change your build post change. There are OPs who have already adapted, then there are those who are sitting around waiting for others to explain it to them because they are too afraid to test things and work it out for themselves.
" I dont know what my skills do, I dont know what rotation to use" ... You assume too much man, its not worth my time to try and talk it out with you. Regardless the devs wont change anything based on our arguments here.
PS: how did you fabricate that 28% in damage debuff from feytouched?
Instead of reading the tooltips, I went and I tested the debuff. It is roughly 28%.
As great as that number based on your tests sounds, it still doesn't stop Orcus from killing me or anyone else unless we are stacking dailies. Im running with a trans fey in CN. Its not that hard to understand what my point is right? Its simple, 2 tanks = 2 ways of surviving heavy hit. Currently one of the tanks is severely handicapped in surviving said hits without using all defensive encounters and stacking dailies. And yes I am talking about average item level as it should be the norm around which they balance.
Tbh, before I played NW, I played a lot of other MMOs, in most of those MMOs, a tank could not survive without a healer. If NW is moving in that direction, I approve. Sure, skills from other classes would have to be reduced as well, but over all, it would result in a game that required a higher skill cap.
.. if you honestly believe that this game, of all other games, is in fact heading in a direction of actual quality improvement (i count requiring skill instead of gear/build as an improvement) then im fine with that. I honestly dont think thats the case though.
Row, row, row your boat, Gently down the stream.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
The real issue here is not mechanics, it is not an encounter ability to survive.. its the change from day 1 of an op to what it is now. Very far cry (in some regards deservedly so). The issue has been very simple.. they released the class, we played the class as they intended.. that was to overpowering.. so they nerfed it... to dictate a play style. and we compromised and adjusted to their play style. When the op first came out.. they were not just a tank they were a party cocoon. Nothing could hurt the party. They took that away.. (rightfully so it did trivialize a lot of content) Then it was, okay we will let you survive now but the party itself is more vulnerable to death. I felt this a fair conclusion to come to. Now it is.. well you do not have a sure way to survive and the party will all die if you are a stunned, teetherd (darn green bonds in cn) to point of having to move around and disrupt your very well timed cycle.
@thefabricant would you still suggest Transcendent Elven Battle for armor Enchantment even with the changes to the paladin? Your opinion on changes and issues in this game has always been a great benefit to me and any information you can offer will always be greatly appreciated.
I believe @thefabricant is saying that binding oath made it so that a paladin didn't have to heavily invest into traditional tanking stats in order to be successful (defense, deflection). Hit the 80% Dr cap and have all the debuff/buff encounters in use should make this a non issue.
Also bo with the bubble as it was is nothing like kv, which is a risk/reward power. KV provides no Dr for the GF and will lead to an early death if your shield comes down at the wrong moment. The bubble with bo was brainless immunity with 0 drawbacks.
I believe @thefabricant is saying that binding oath made it so that a paladin didn't have to heavily invest into traditional tanking stats in order to be successful (defense, deflection). Hit the 80% Dr cap and have all the debuff/buff encounters in use should make this a non issue.
Also bo with the bubble as it was is nothing like kv, which is a risk/reward power. KV provides no Dr for the GF and will lead to an early death if your shield comes down at the wrong moment. The bubble with bo was brainless immunity with 0 drawbacks.
Yes he is. And Im sayng that conventional thinking in regard to tanking does not apply when the incoming hit is in the 6-7 digit range. The GF tank does it with 2 layers of DR potentially both reducing the hit by 80% twice!
And before someone mentions Shield of Faith or DP let me say that a daily cannot substitute for a proper Shift mechanic IMHO. At the very least they should make the 50% damage return from BO go trough our DR before hitting any HP be it temp or base.
Row, row, row your boat, Gently down the stream.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
@emilemo still mad about the op nerfs? I have already said in the other thread. I think they did a great job with BO and bubble changes. It is just the truth. NW's balance, especially pally's, isnt as bad as you want to make believe us.
@emilemo still mad about the op nerfs? I have already said in the other thread. I think they did a great job with BO and bubble changes. It is just the truth. NW's balance, especially pally's, isnt as bad as you want to make believe us.
Frankly I dont care what you believe or think. All I've been doing on these Paladin related threads is state my own opinion and the way I feel about it all. If you feel 50% unmitigated damage return from BO is a "great job" thats your prerogative
Post edited by emilemo on
Row, row, row your boat, Gently down the stream.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
Lets see, its 50% of the shield returned as damage to you, which then gets taken from your remaining HP (current HP+Temp HP+Absolution).
Example: That means that if your max HP is lets say 150k, you receive 75k back as damage IF your ENTIRE BO shield gets depleted by enemy dmg, which then gets taken from your remaining HP. That means that if you have 400k temp HP, you now have 325k temp HP, or if you have only 25k temp HP, then you now have 50k on your red HP bar.
If the damage taken surpasses the shield from BO, then you take the 75k (using example), plus the remaining damage the shield didnt take.
Keep in mind that the damage absorbed by the shield is mitigated by your DR, so might as well treat it as another HP bar.
BO was always meant to be a high risk, high reward ability even before this change. This hasnt changed; however because it gave immunity people were literally immortal. What I dont like is that they took away the reduction to incoming damage while active. They should have kept it, which wouldve given us that second layer of DR
The one real aspect that lets the pally down isn't powers or gear, it's feats. Take a look at the GF feat choices:
15% less damage to party Party wide AP gain Lower stamina drain Take 10% less damage when stamina is below 30% plus other skill related ones that increase threat & stamina gain and reduce incoming damage.
These are all good tanking and buffing choices.
But then again, the GF is built around the choices of DPS, Full Tank, Party Buffer The Pally feats are built around the concept of DPS, Full Tank, Healer.
Unfortunately Pally DPS is not as good as GF DPS. Pally Full Tank (Bulwark Path) has very poor boosts to defence, threat, skills etc and low Divine Call gain.
Heal path is good for Power buff and that's about it unless you run a healadin. There is also a disconnect between the purpose of stamina on the two tank classes.
Parties want a tank that buffs. We need an improvement on our feats, not our powers.
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darthpotaterMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,259Arc User
Parties want a tank that buffs. We need an improvement on our feats, not our powers.
Well 25% of your power to team, +dmg with aura of courage, 30% more dmg to bosses, movement speed, huge cooldown reductions, ap gain, are helping A BIT to buff.
I have a 3.2k pally - soon to be 3.6k at the next 2xRP, I don't underestimate their buffs but they are more limited than those of a GF (which I also run). A GF runs with a combination of all of the above almost continuously whereas the 30% dmg you refer to has a 10 second uptime so it's more like 20% and single target so only useful on bosses, average of 7-10% from Courage depending on class (low dps DoTs benefit the most - typical GWF attacks get the least). What AP gain does the OP give to the party though? Apart from secondary via faster encounter rotations when using Wisdom & Radiant Champion?
The problem is the Pally has to set passives for most of its buffs (so limited to 2) whereas the GF delivers most of them through feat choices - far better.
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darthpotaterMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,259Arc User
Yes GWF gets less dmg from courage but they get aura of gifts because they fight near you. In my case in a typical run of FBI I stay in the 100k-130k power sustained so the GWF and people in 30 feet gets 25k-32k power so thats 62% -80% more dmg. How is that even comparable to ItF? You need to stay near and fights like Druffi is harder but in most bosses you can keep it with good uptime.
AP? -> Artifact offhand Aura of Wisdom: Aura of Wisdom also adds 1% of total Action Points every 3 seconds in combat.
I feel a lot of the dissatisfaction surrounding the Oathbound Paladin right now has to do with the amount of investment involved to get to a level of Tanking/Support/Buff that's still not quite equal to that of a Guardian Fighter. While the Guardian Fighter buffs through encounters like ITF and provides survivability to his party members through a solid taunt mechanic and Knight's Valour and to himself/herself through their Shield, an Oathbound Paladin needs a little more. Oversimplified, one could say a Guardian Fighter needs Damage Resistance and a bit of Health to do their job.*
An Oathbound Paladin, on the other hand, needs Health, Power, Crit, Recovery and Defense in great numbers, alongside often expensive items to gain as much AP as possible, as our AP gain is decidedly lower than that of a Guardian Fighter, who gains it through receiving damage. Previously, we could pretty much swing by with the Defense naturaly present on our gear and the DR from the AC and Con roll to do just fine, because of Binding Oath. Because of the way our survivability and buffing is divided up over several different stats, the level of investment is much higher.
1) Health Points; Health is important to the OP in several ways. Firstly, for buffing: It provides boosts to Aura of Courage and determines the power gain from getting hit. Secondly, for survivability: More HP = being able to take more hits, obviously. However, it also now determines the amount of Shield HP Absolution and Binding Oath provide.
2) Power (and Crit); Power (and Crit) determine our Damage, which determines the amount of Temp. HP we gain from Templar's Wrath. When it comes to buffing, if we took the feat, it also determines the amount of Power your teammates get through Aura Gifts feat.
3) Recovery (and AP Gain); Recovery and AP Gain are important to increase the speed at which we fill our Action Point bar. Our dailies - aside from taunts - are a major source of shielding for our teammates, much like Knight's Valour is for the Guardian Fighter, which, while a lot riskier for the GF, is up all the time.
4) Defense; A no-brainer. Defense = DR. We like DR.
While I think there's not much difficulty with the interesting balance tango when it comes to these stats on higher Item Levels, or for people that have no problem buying items like a Flail Snail, at lower levels investing in one stats probably means sacrificing another.
*Like I said, oversimplified. Lots of Guardian Fighters stack Recovery to get Into the Fray off more often, power and crit to increase their damage output. However, their survivability isn't tied into those.
-
Anyway, that's the way I'm approaching this at the moment. I'm pretty sure I've missed some other points, so feel free to correct or add anything I might've missed.
On a more personal level: I'm not having many problems with my Pally. I feel perfectly comfortable running around with him, after some minor tweaks I've made over the last week. While I've seen many throw their hands up in the air and calling the Binding Oath change the final straw, I'm looking forward to next Double RP so I can finally get Isaac close to, what I'd call, 'finished'.
Isaac the Adequate - Level 70 Oath of Protection Paladin
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I agree the nerfs are annoying. Honestly just adapt to them. We all know they will do as they seem fit to do, regardless of our input. Just adapt, do give up on the pally, and tank or heal away.
Yes GWF gets less dmg from courage but they get aura of gifts because they fight near you. In my case in a typical run of FBI I stay in the 100k-130k power sustained so the GWF and people in 30 feet gets 25k-32k power so thats 62% -80% more dmg. How is that even comparable to ItF? You need to stay near and fights like Druffi is harder but in most bosses you can keep it with good uptime.
AP? -> Artifact offhand Aura of Wisdom: Aura of Wisdom also adds 1% of total Action Points every 3 seconds in combat.
Giving AP like your offensive legendary neck
I understand what you're saying about power sharing and that is a good amount, I'm not sure about the math though when equating that to total damage. You can't just do a straight 80% more power = 80% more damage but I'd need some knowledgeable person such as @thefabricant to set me straight
The AP gain I referred to was to the party. The GF has two feats that provide AP to the party: * Rousing Speech - Allies within 30' of you gain Action Points 1/2/3/4/5% faster. * Martial Mastery - Taking damage while now builds Action Points for yourself and allies within 50'. You gain a bonus to this value based on your Damage Resistance.
But as Jaegernl and others have said above, an OP has to be seriously geared to provide buffs, threat gen, handle damage compared to a GF. I assume you have r12 bondings on a companion that also has r12 enchantments? To be hitting 130k power and not dying suggests you are at/close to 4k.
But heres the thing: I have a new GF who is only 2.1k. I already have 65%DR, I provide a continuous 55% reduced damage to party and 65% against marked targets (who are also debuffed) on top of the 25% DPS boost from ITF. That's at 2.1k and with a DPS (conqueror) build!
The point I'm making is that the feat choices is where the GF has is right - ours are mostly very poor (with a couple of exceptions). OP's have made a lot of noise about powers but to me that not where we need the focus.
Imo Bulwark needs a total rewrite into a low DPS 'Buff Turtle' similar to the typical combination of Tact & Prot - providing group wide continuous damage reduction & enhanced threat generation: e.g. "Aura of Protection now provides an additional 10/20/30/40/50 percent damage reduction". That sound like a lot? Well it isn't, my 2.1k GF can already do that.
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darthpotaterMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,259Arc User
All these comparisons between GF and Prot Op are poor ,for a number of reasons.First of all,all the Gf encounters have from a medium to high reward -risk ratio. GF dies a lot,while Op-prior to the changes-never.
Most of the Ops forget that the Gf in essense has no temp hp nor shield hps.It is his shield and his hp,his sole defenses.Also if he faces wrong direction or his shield is down Gf, is history.
Now compare this to the Op.Passive auras and - prior to the changes immortallity-.
I have two Ops ,one 2,8k and one 2,1k.I respecced the 2,8k Heal Op to tank for a day and made him prot Op.I respecced him back.It was boring to play in the meaning ,that class forgiv e all my mistakes..Templar's wrath,BO,tab-tab,at will,templars -Bo.sometimes the cooldowns were so short that i had to choose between templar's and BO.
When some one here or in the other OP threads mentioned that his 2k OP cannot do CN no more nad he was sad about this, I fell from my chair. Gfs are not viable for CN untill they hit 2,6k at least.Even then they need a competent party to succeed.And you complain cause in the 2k you cannot do CN anymore?
My Gf is 3,7k IL ,I do FBI single tank with relative ease,but one misclick in orcus and I am history.
Instead bashing another class try to improve your own or at least post whole truths.Yes a 2k Il GF can provide 25% ITF and KV,but this in theory.Cause he will die in any dungeon except MC/VC. While an Op at similar IL is far tankier.
Instead bashing another class try to improve your own or at least post whole truths.Yes a 2k Il GF can provide 25% ITF and KV,but this in theory.Cause he will die in any dungeon except MC/VC. While an Op at similar IL is far tankier.
I'm not sure if this is in response to my post, but I'll reply just to make sure any misunderstanding is cleared.
First of all, comparing the Guardian Fighter to the Oathbound Paladin is inevitable, considering we're both 'competing' for the same spot: that of a Tank. From a party-standpoint, people will compare what either of the two brings to the table and choose from there. This means they'll compare the ability to tank, buff, and any other supportive quality the class might bring.
Secondly, I don't feel I was bashing the Guardian Fighter at all. Quite on the contrary: I was trying to show how much of the Oathbound Paladin's potential is bound to stats, while at the same time considering that the potential of a Guardian Fighter is far more bound to skill and timing. One is purchasable, the other is not. While an Oathbound Paladin will hit a certain 'cap' on usefulness based on his or her gear, a Guardian Fighter will be able, through better timing and skill, to still improve. This is not a bash towards the Guardian Fighter, but rather a complaint about the Oathbound Paladin.
The reason for the comparison is well illustrated by your final sentence: 'While an Op at similar IL is far tankier'. An OP at that Item Level might very well be able to keep him or herself alive, but would provide little to the team other than that. It's one of those trade-offs I was speaking about in under the first point.
On a final note: I'm not sad to see Binding Oath change. It was - as you rightly state - a Godmode button that made the class boring. It's the same reason why I didn't mind the consecutive changes to Divine Protector (Duration and percentage) at all - Hell, I changed to Protector *after* the change - as it, combined with Binding Oath, basicly meant people could stand in red. It made people lazy and bad, and a lot of Guardian Fighters probably suffered because of that: people standing in red zones because they're used to Divine Protector, killing the Guardian Fighter in the process.
Isaac the Adequate - Level 70 Oath of Protection Paladin
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What are you currently running as encounter set up in dungeons? @jaegurnl Are you still healadin or tankadin now?
I've rolled to Oath of Protection after they changed the glory that was Prism with Burning Guidance. It was at the time they reduced Divine Protector's duration.
Honestly, for the 'clearing' phase of the dungeon, I haven't changed my setup at all. I run Templar's Wrath - Burning Light - Binding Oath during the clear. Templar's Wrath and Binding Oath for survivability, Burning Light for damage and a bit of CC (not to mention nice AP Gain). Right now, I feel the taunt of Binding Oath is very good, albeit not 100%, so I can do without Oath Strike to hold agro. When it comes to Dailies, I use Divine Judgement and Shield of Faith during the clear.
Bosses, I switch out Divine Judgement for Divine Protector, and Burning Light for Bane. Shielding Strike and Radiant Strike never leave my bar.
Take all of this with a grain of salt, though, as my OP has been on the backburner for a bit, and I've not unlocked Fangbreaker Island with him yet. In FBI, I'd probably use Shield of Faith and Divine Protector full time, and possibly Absolution during the clearing phase, instead of Burning Light.
Isaac the Adequate - Level 70 Oath of Protection Paladin
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Isaac i was no referring to you. But as i have seen in MMOs ,people ,when frustrated,tend to act en masse.It does not take long before some unhappy OPs to start a GF nerf crusade.(and based on imaginary data .."a GF doesn't even have to hold threat to tank just turn KV on and boom its like 20 second bubbles all over again" )
I was just impressed with some statements there and i posted them.
For the essense of the subject i was against any changes to OP.Let the class be as it is,untill a total rework similar to HR/GF in mod3.Cause honestly i cannot think a way to balance the class. Not from a technical standpoint,that can be done.But from a social perspective:
OP class was not ready to get a release yet it did.With 25 secs of a daily making party totally invulnerable and a 8 secs ICD encounter that made Prot OP totally unkillable himself,coupled with the justice tree that melts 60 secs ICDs to 4 secs. People learned to play this way ,and while there are skilled and mature OP players ,there are also players that were attracted to that class and paied a hefty amount of AD to gear them.You get my point.So it is now very very dificult to balance things out.
Class is full of bags ,feats that do not work as intended or at all, (Blood's martyr,radiant champion) has low single DPS and some powers clearly misplaced or not finished in its concept at all. (divine touch ,RAvenger).
All 3 capstones need to get a rework ,removing Divine calls as a design to activate them,making them similar passives as other classes capstones: Justice needs its bonuses to be perma (+ damage + ICD reduction) ,but not spammable ,Bulwark is completely useless and needs a serious tanking buff,and Light overheals anyway.
what can happen now?i don't know.or better i know.people will be frustrated (and rightfully so) and angered and game will lose more players.
GF is not the problem ,OP can be very utility-party usefull and fun to play.People cannot se its buffs as they see Gfs casting ITF.Also Prot auras radious might need an increase,fix radiant champion speed buff( cause hell it is not permanent: sometimes it gets activated sometimes it is not:depends on party taking damage or flash proc?? in cn running through the corridors all party members together speed is not present) so people will not feel OP slows them down.
RA needs its knockdown removed,att wills damage increase,Divine Touch damage increase and maybe add a separate layer of DR (40% ? ) to sanctuary ,and speeding up its casting animation in the process.
I was thinking about Sanctuary earlier and how useless it is a lot of the time. It might be interesting to add, say, a +% Deflect Chance to it. If it's a seperate layer of DR, it'll become too much like the Guardian Fighter's shield.
If they do ever choose to make it a seperate layer of DR, the percentage has to be quite low, or OP will be in godmode again.
Isaac the Adequate - Level 70 Oath of Protection Paladin
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Comments
I recommend evaluating your build/stats, 60%+ base DR, 8K recovery, defensive boons, defensive auras/encounters/dailies when tanking bosses. If you need any r8 for recovery/defense, shoot me a game mail @nic1985 and i'll be more than happy to spare you some or chat me up about build/rotations.
Dont give up on your pally or the game.
PS: how did you fabricate that 28% in damage debuff from feytouched?
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
Also bo with the bubble as it was is nothing like kv, which is a risk/reward power. KV provides no Dr for the GF and will lead to an early death if your shield comes down at the wrong moment. The bubble with bo was brainless immunity with 0 drawbacks.
And before someone mentions Shield of Faith or DP let me say that a daily cannot substitute for a proper Shift mechanic IMHO. At the very least they should make the 50% damage return from BO go trough our DR before hitting any HP be it temp or base.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
still mad about the op nerfs? I have already said in the other thread. I think they did a great job with BO and bubble changes. It is just the truth. NW's balance, especially pally's, isnt as bad as you want to make believe us.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
Example: That means that if your max HP is lets say 150k, you receive 75k back as damage IF your ENTIRE BO shield gets depleted by enemy dmg, which then gets taken from your remaining HP. That means that if you have 400k temp HP, you now have 325k temp HP, or if you have only 25k temp HP, then you now have 50k on your red HP bar.
If the damage taken surpasses the shield from BO, then you take the 75k (using example), plus the remaining damage the shield didnt take.
Keep in mind that the damage absorbed by the shield is mitigated by your DR, so might as well treat it as another HP bar.
BO was always meant to be a high risk, high reward ability even before this change. This hasnt changed; however because it gave immunity people were literally immortal. What I dont like is that they took away the reduction to incoming damage while active. They should have kept it, which wouldve given us that second layer of DR
15% less damage to party
Party wide AP gain
Lower stamina drain
Take 10% less damage when stamina is below 30%
plus other skill related ones that increase threat & stamina gain and reduce incoming damage.
These are all good tanking and buffing choices.
But then again, the GF is built around the choices of DPS, Full Tank, Party Buffer
The Pally feats are built around the concept of DPS, Full Tank, Healer.
Unfortunately Pally DPS is not as good as GF DPS. Pally Full Tank (Bulwark Path) has very poor boosts to defence, threat, skills etc and low Divine Call gain.
Heal path is good for Power buff and that's about it unless you run a healadin. There is also a disconnect between the purpose of stamina on the two tank classes.
Parties want a tank that buffs. We need an improvement on our feats, not our powers.
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People really understimate the OP skills
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The problem is the Pally has to set passives for most of its buffs (so limited to 2) whereas the GF delivers most of them through feat choices - far better.
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AP? -> Artifact offhand
Aura of Wisdom: Aura of Wisdom also adds 1% of total Action Points every 3 seconds in combat.
Giving AP like your offensive legendary neck
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An Oathbound Paladin, on the other hand, needs Health, Power, Crit, Recovery and Defense in great numbers, alongside often expensive items to gain as much AP as possible, as our AP gain is decidedly lower than that of a Guardian Fighter, who gains it through receiving damage. Previously, we could pretty much swing by with the Defense naturaly present on our gear and the DR from the AC and Con roll to do just fine, because of Binding Oath. Because of the way our survivability and buffing is divided up over several different stats, the level of investment is much higher.
1) Health Points; Health is important to the OP in several ways. Firstly, for buffing: It provides boosts to Aura of Courage and determines the power gain from getting hit. Secondly, for survivability: More HP = being able to take more hits, obviously. However, it also now determines the amount of Shield HP Absolution and Binding Oath provide.
2) Power (and Crit); Power (and Crit) determine our Damage, which determines the amount of Temp. HP we gain from Templar's Wrath. When it comes to buffing, if we took the feat, it also determines the amount of Power your teammates get through Aura Gifts feat.
3) Recovery (and AP Gain); Recovery and AP Gain are important to increase the speed at which we fill our Action Point bar. Our dailies - aside from taunts - are a major source of shielding for our teammates, much like Knight's Valour is for the Guardian Fighter, which, while a lot riskier for the GF, is up all the time.
4) Defense; A no-brainer. Defense = DR. We like DR.
While I think there's not much difficulty with the interesting balance tango when it comes to these stats on higher Item Levels, or for people that have no problem buying items like a Flail Snail, at lower levels investing in one stats probably means sacrificing another.
*Like I said, oversimplified. Lots of Guardian Fighters stack Recovery to get Into the Fray off more often, power and crit to increase their damage output. However, their survivability isn't tied into those.
-
Anyway, that's the way I'm approaching this at the moment. I'm pretty sure I've missed some other points, so feel free to correct or add anything I might've missed.
On a more personal level: I'm not having many problems with my Pally. I feel perfectly comfortable running around with him, after some minor tweaks I've made over the last week. While I've seen many throw their hands up in the air and calling the Binding Oath change the final straw, I'm looking forward to next Double RP so I can finally get Isaac close to, what I'd call, 'finished'.
The AP gain I referred to was to the party. The GF has two feats that provide AP to the party:
* Rousing Speech - Allies within 30' of you gain Action Points 1/2/3/4/5% faster.
* Martial Mastery - Taking damage while now builds Action Points for yourself and allies within 50'. You gain a bonus to this value based on your Damage Resistance.
But as Jaegernl and others have said above, an OP has to be seriously geared to provide buffs, threat gen, handle damage compared to a GF. I assume you have r12 bondings on a companion that also has r12 enchantments? To be hitting 130k power and not dying suggests you are at/close to 4k.
But heres the thing: I have a new GF who is only 2.1k. I already have 65%DR, I provide a continuous 55% reduced damage to party and 65% against marked targets (who are also debuffed) on top of the 25% DPS boost from ITF. That's at 2.1k and with a DPS (conqueror) build!
The point I'm making is that the feat choices is where the GF has is right - ours are mostly very poor (with a couple of exceptions). OP's have made a lot of noise about powers but to me that not where we need the focus.
Imo Bulwark needs a total rewrite into a low DPS 'Buff Turtle' similar to the typical combination of Tact & Prot - providing group wide continuous damage reduction & enhanced threat generation: e.g. "Aura of Protection now provides an additional 10/20/30/40/50 percent damage reduction". That sound like a lot? Well it isn't, my 2.1k GF can already do that.
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GF dies a lot,while Op-prior to the changes-never.
Most of the Ops forget that the Gf in essense has no temp hp nor shield hps.It is his shield and his hp,his sole defenses.Also if he faces wrong direction or his shield is down Gf, is history.
Now compare this to the Op.Passive auras and - prior to the changes immortallity-.
I have two Ops ,one 2,8k and one 2,1k.I respecced the 2,8k Heal Op to tank for a day and made him prot Op.I respecced him back.It was boring to play in the meaning ,that class forgiv e all my mistakes..Templar's wrath,BO,tab-tab,at will,templars -Bo.sometimes the cooldowns were so short that i had to choose between templar's and BO.
When some one here or in the other OP threads mentioned that his 2k OP cannot do CN no more nad he was sad about this, I fell from my chair.
Gfs are not viable for CN untill they hit 2,6k at least.Even then they need a competent party to succeed.And you complain cause in the 2k you cannot do CN anymore?
My Gf is 3,7k IL ,I do FBI single tank with relative ease,but one misclick in orcus and I am history.
Instead bashing another class try to improve your own or at least post whole truths.Yes a 2k Il GF can provide 25% ITF and KV,but this in theory.Cause he will die in any dungeon except MC/VC.
While an Op at similar IL is far tankier.
First of all, comparing the Guardian Fighter to the Oathbound Paladin is inevitable, considering we're both 'competing' for the same spot: that of a Tank. From a party-standpoint, people will compare what either of the two brings to the table and choose from there. This means they'll compare the ability to tank, buff, and any other supportive quality the class might bring.
Secondly, I don't feel I was bashing the Guardian Fighter at all. Quite on the contrary: I was trying to show how much of the Oathbound Paladin's potential is bound to stats, while at the same time considering that the potential of a Guardian Fighter is far more bound to skill and timing. One is purchasable, the other is not. While an Oathbound Paladin will hit a certain 'cap' on usefulness based on his or her gear, a Guardian Fighter will be able, through better timing and skill, to still improve. This is not a bash towards the Guardian Fighter, but rather a complaint about the Oathbound Paladin.
The reason for the comparison is well illustrated by your final sentence: 'While an Op at similar IL is far tankier'. An OP at that Item Level might very well be able to keep him or herself alive, but would provide little to the team other than that. It's one of those trade-offs I was speaking about in under the first point.
On a final note: I'm not sad to see Binding Oath change. It was - as you rightly state - a Godmode button that made the class boring. It's the same reason why I didn't mind the consecutive changes to Divine Protector (Duration and percentage) at all - Hell, I changed to Protector *after* the change - as it, combined with Binding Oath, basicly meant people could stand in red. It made people lazy and bad, and a lot of Guardian Fighters probably suffered because of that: people standing in red zones because they're used to Divine Protector, killing the Guardian Fighter in the process.
Honestly, for the 'clearing' phase of the dungeon, I haven't changed my setup at all. I run Templar's Wrath - Burning Light - Binding Oath during the clear. Templar's Wrath and Binding Oath for survivability, Burning Light for damage and a bit of CC (not to mention nice AP Gain). Right now, I feel the taunt of Binding Oath is very good, albeit not 100%, so I can do without Oath Strike to hold agro. When it comes to Dailies, I use Divine Judgement and Shield of Faith during the clear.
Bosses, I switch out Divine Judgement for Divine Protector, and Burning Light for Bane. Shielding Strike and Radiant Strike never leave my bar.
Take all of this with a grain of salt, though, as my OP has been on the backburner for a bit, and I've not unlocked Fangbreaker Island with him yet. In FBI, I'd probably use Shield of Faith and Divine Protector full time, and possibly Absolution during the clearing phase, instead of Burning Light.
Isaac i was no referring to you.
But as i have seen in MMOs ,people ,when frustrated,tend to act en masse.It does not take long before some unhappy OPs to start a GF nerf crusade.(and based on imaginary data .."a GF doesn't even have to hold threat to tank just turn KV on and boom its like 20 second bubbles all over again" )
I was just impressed with some statements there and i posted them.
For the essense of the subject i was against any changes to OP.Let the class be as it is,untill a total rework similar to HR/GF in mod3.Cause honestly i cannot think a way to balance the class.
Not from a technical standpoint,that can be done.But from a social perspective:
OP class was not ready to get a release yet it did.With 25 secs of a daily making party totally invulnerable and a 8 secs ICD encounter that made Prot OP totally unkillable himself,coupled with the justice tree that melts 60 secs ICDs to 4 secs.
People learned to play this way ,and while there are skilled and mature OP players ,there are also players that were attracted to that class and paied a hefty amount of AD to gear them.You get my point.So it is now very very dificult to balance things out.
Class is full of bags ,feats that do not work as intended or at all, (Blood's martyr,radiant champion) has low single DPS and some powers clearly misplaced or not finished in its concept at all. (divine touch ,RAvenger).
All 3 capstones need to get a rework ,removing Divine calls as a design to activate them,making them similar passives as other classes capstones:
Justice needs its bonuses to be perma (+ damage + ICD reduction) ,but not spammable ,Bulwark is completely useless and needs a serious tanking buff,and Light overheals anyway.
what can happen now?i don't know.or better i know.people will be frustrated (and rightfully so) and angered and game will lose more players.
GF is not the problem ,OP can be very utility-party usefull and fun to play.People cannot se its buffs as they see Gfs casting ITF.Also Prot auras radious might need an increase,fix radiant champion speed buff( cause hell it is not permanent: sometimes it gets activated sometimes it is not:depends on party taking damage or flash proc?? in cn running through the corridors all party members together speed is not present) so people will not feel OP slows them down.
RA needs its knockdown removed,att wills damage increase,Divine Touch damage increase and maybe add a separate layer of DR (40% ? ) to sanctuary ,and speeding up its casting animation in the process.
If they do ever choose to make it a seperate layer of DR, the percentage has to be quite low, or OP will be in godmode again.