you are pugstompers on lvl 60-69 with trans ecnchants and mythic arti who destroying any existing new player who want to pvp pugstompers shame on you
When I run PVP setup and soloqueue as a pug, most of the time I get stomped or stomp vs other pugs , near no balanced matches, but it´s the system wich is silly af. I only get nasty if someone trys to defend it as "the better option" vs. a soloqueue, since we witnessed for >2 years that it is the most toxic and destructive kind of PVP you could imagine. I took part since mod 8 and stopped, despite having a pretty high frustration tolerance.
the real issue is gear difference due to no ilvl based mathmacking AND PREMADES.
I don't get why (non troll) "premades" are that impactful on PvP when, IMO, the second main problem of PvP is brought via "gear" (not just sets. Enchants, mounts, boons and SH boons, SH items, etc are included too) gap (being the main one "class balance" itself [over performing mechanics on both offensive AND defensive positions] but, i think, we are not talking about this point here at all but should be taken into account to say the least), not by friendly players doing a team and Q into PvP... I'm pretty sure that if i Q with some PvP players i do know will not be a problem at all if enemy team is almost like our team (let's say 2 GWFs, 1 GF, 1 CW and 1 DC/heal OP) . If you mean "premade" as "troll comp", then, you all should blame on "over performing mechanics", not on the team itself.
@clonkyo1 dont you think that if they did remove boons and mount bonuses that would reduce the effectiveness of "troll" builds and make them less desirable?
I guess the other option would be to limit the class makeup in parties or what not... But yes, some builds (OP comes to mind) can be very troll and when you combine classes or double up on classes it does become very un-fun to play. That IS one issue, but I see that more as a class balance issue rather than anything else.
If classes were balanced, in a perfect world there would be no advantage to take two paladins over a rainbow comp. Maybe thats one way to force it... If you que with 5 players for PVP it forces rainbow... If you que with 4 you could allow some people to "double up".
You can always impose some rules like that to avoid troll comps.
1 - Don't really know how much are you right there, TBH. Let's take, in example, HR's "piercing blades": It deals weapon's base damage as piercing damage and, also, that piercing damage is empowered. Right? So, tell me, what makes it that "broken"? The "base" damage it deals, the empowered damage it deals OR the fact that it can proc up to 7 times within 2 secs plus the empowered damage it deals? . Now, continuing using combat HR, let's continue with "wild medicines" and "lifesteal": It's a nightmare in both solo and team, because LS + wild = near immortal HR. The addition of a DC on the math will not be so noticeable at all on this sense, but it will be noticeable on the "empowered damage" side. Hope you get what i mean here.
Well, as we discussed, the removal of boons removes a TON of lifesteal + endless that the HR loses as well, while they still have Wilds + other healing, removing boons should atleast enable players to be able to burst the HRs down with some focus. They will still be beasts forsure but atleast beatable beasts. Reminds me of the GWF in mod 3 a little. Tanky, hits like a truck, but with coordination you could still bring them down.
2 - Yes, that's what i said but i also said that, from my PoV, this thread is not about "class balance" but "gear gap" and "combat mechanics" as i understood from your OP. . But we can talk about both things on this thread. After all, "class balance", for both PvE and PvP, is the main problem on the whole game and it needs to be addressed ASAP.
Im not sure I agree on this, I would have to chew on it more... I agree there ARE class balance issues, but I dont know if its the main problem of the game. I think the main problem is gear gap. If they normalized players for PVP (Removal of boons/mount bonuses is a BIG step), removed tenacity on gear and awarded those to the players, modified some of the items (such as ancient weapon set being more 'on par' with artifact weapons) then you would have a much more normalized game. I would prefer these things to class balance any day of the week right now.
IMO, the BEST first step is to get rid of the boons, and mount bonuses for PVP. This strips down characters and THEN makes it much more easy to balance classes for PVP when you dont have the massive stats and what not available to skew the issues.
- Some classes doing multiple roles at once. This must END for good and ASAP. Why?? because i find stupid as hell meet a TANK which can deal almost the same burst damage than STRIKER classes while maintaining its "Tank" status and, also, while buffing his/her own team, in example.
... i find stupid that a CW can TANK thanks to some mechanics AND gear....
...But, overall, i think that we both agree that the 2 main problems (i don't care about the order at all) are these 2 problems: "gear gap" and "class balance". If you think that we should also talk about "class balance" on this thread (and i do agree on this for explained reasons), then, state it and we will start doing so too.
Oh I completely agree with you. This is why I have been saying for many modules that self healing is WAY to out of control and what allows this to happen. You have CWs that can self heal SO much, they turn into "tanks". You have these striker classes that can self sustain WAY too well. GWF/HR/CW etc. You have tanks doing more burst damage than strikers etc.
I think a lot of this comes from the stats though. When you remove endless consumption +lifesteal stats it removes SOME of this self healing which then forces the "tank" classes to spec more defensively to survive which in turn makes them deal less damage.
I dont disagree with you though that fundamentally the "core" abilities need to be changed a bit. However that doesnt address the overall problem of population and PVP. Even if classes became better "balanced" if the current gear gap stands, you will STILL have BIS players 4v1 or 5v1 "average joes" in PVP.
This is why #1 needs to be to remove all those stats. remove boons, remove mount bonuses, which includes endless consumption, and thousands of stats available... Which in turn brings these classes more to a "norm" and THEN allows you to adjust some base abilities.
For instance, if you remove all the boons. GFs will have a very hard time being both a tank and DPS. Same with GWFs, removing endless cuts lifesteal and removing all the lifesteal stat makes it VERY difficult to get a reliable lifesteal # from sheer gear + enchants alone.. Which means GWFs will need to lose damage if they want to keep lifesteal high to self sustain.
But yeah, some self healing abilities (like wilds medicine for HR and Chaotic Growth for CW) need to be nerfed or removed as well.
I remember back in early days, Regen was super high which caused big problems in PVP but regen was "capped" and so with enough DPS you could kill, or enough burst you could clear a node with work. Nowadays, non healing classes can self sustain SO well that they dont even really need a healer which comes back around to the "why" behind the gear gap. When an average player teams up 2v1 or 3v1 against a BIS player, they cant kill them because that BIS player can self sustain too well.
Removing boons, removes much of this self sustain, which in turn allows average players to 2v1 or 3v1 BIS players better, as well as, BIS vs BIS players to clear nodes making PVP more dynamic.
PVP is dead. People should stop feeding the pug-stompers until they get bored fighting bots and leave the game or the mode is shut down. PVP can then get reworked and reopen after the major issues get solved and the most toxic players have found another game to destroy.
I think this is a pipedream. In reality, in a game where gear awards someone SO much power over others, its going to attract the toxic people to the game in which they can dominate with letter effort and proceed to talk smack with zero skill involved in their play.
In this game, gear means too much. Now I think it SHOULD matter some, its an RPG right? So we dont need it to be the same PVP as say "overwatch" where its all about the class and rock paper scissors... But that said, they need to normalize player "power" in PVP (not the stat just to be clear).
This is done by fixing some of the problems that I have highlighted in this thread. PVE boons and tenacity are a HUGE culprit, same with mount bonuses and then SH boons as well. After that I would peg artifacts and artifact equipment as the next issue.
If you want to remove the toxic players from the game this is what would be needed: #1 remove tenacity on gear, apply a "player damage resistance" bonus to ALL players that scales with level: (10% +1% per level) = 80% at lvl 70. Remove critical suppression. Control resist can be 0% base and .5% per level (35% at 70). #2 Remove ALL boons and Mount bonuses from PVP - they should be treated as companions are. PVE only. #3 Look at all artifact equipment, and the "BIS" PVE gear should be buffed to be ~90% of the same strength. Ideally what this would mean is the "BIS PVE" weapons would have all the same STATS minus maybe the artifact "bonuses" same with belts/neck/etc. Trivializing the benefits of artifact equipment. #4 Only your primary artifact should work in PVP - meaning secondary ones dont provide stat benefits in PVP anymore.
Now you have a PVP environment that is the most friendly to all players. "BIS" PVP players will still be able to out gear opponents, but the advantage they gain will be minimal compared to an average player. This will make the game more competitive and will start to "weed out" the toxic players from PVP and encourage retired players to come BACK to the game.
With a few "buts" or "disagreements", i must say "+1" to this.... So, hope that now we do agree on "which" are the main problems of the game, we can "argue" about "how" to fix them and pray that devs + Head of the project listen to us this time instead of trolls who only enjoy being overpowered to stomp players
Yeah well we know the solutions... remove boons, remove mount bonuses, shift tenacity away from gear.... IMO heal depression could even use an adjustment or be removed from PVP as well but instead of JUST doing that, take a look at ALL the healing abilities in the game and make some adjustments to them.... Thats too complicated so might not be a good idea but I do think taking a look at all NON-healer classes self healing abilities (we named a few above) and nerfing those, would be a positive first step.
Its rather silly to me that any non healer class can even self heal at all in combat... I get having "some" self healing is needed for PVE solo content and what not, this is where you can have SOME items and abilities and lifesteal, but the current amount people can get is just a joke. Not only trivializing PVE content, but making PVP completely unbalanced.
I think self healing needs to be capped at a 1 tick per second or every 3 seconds type of heal and it should be ALL based on % of HP. So thinks like Wilds Medicine, make it something like a "X% CHANCE on deflect, gain ~3% of your HP every second for 10 seconds". So its a total of 30% in PVE (15% on PVP). Something like this, doesnt stack. Just as one example. Maybe that would be too weak, but maybe not...
For CW, same type of thing. if you get that Chaotic regrowth buff, it should heal you the same fixed amount 3% of HP over 10 seconds every 1 second. 30% maxed.
GWF restoring Strike - should be the same type of thing. Fixed %of HP heal per second over X seconds. NOT based on damage.
So you give these classes these feats/abilities that CAN provide a little self sustain, but only enough to allow for solo-play without over doing it in PVP.
Lifesteal (IMO) should also be adjusted to 200:1% (from 400:1%) but base severity kicked down from 100% -> 50%. So rather than having a chance at a BIG heal, you would have smaller heals a little more frequent. What this does, along with removal of boons which removes endless consumption from PVP too, is makes lifesteal still viable. If you leave it as is, some classes like CW who can get 10% lifesteal get a BIG advantage where as making it 200:1 cuts that advantage in half. This is just IMO though... Also if you DO get off a big crit of 60-80k+ and just to happen to have your 10% lifesteal proc on that, its a HUGe deal. Making it 50% and 200:1 nerfs that "big heal" effect in PVP.
IMO - First Strike (TR feat) needs a rework as its troll in PVP and useless in PVE. Id redesign it. The initial "rules" were "At the start of an encounter, you have combat advantage against any creatures that have not yet acted in that encounter." This is for PnP... Well combat advantage is already given from stealth. So I would maybe just adjust this to something LIKE: Your encounters deal 30% increased damage from stealth" or something. So it would buff ALL stealth damage - but NOT affect dailies - removing the first strike SE problems.... Just an idea I havnt though much about, but this buffs First Strike in PVE and nerfs the PVP trolls.
But anyways, it all stems from the BIGGEST issue: Gear gap caused by boons.
It is not a pipedream that players stop feeding the skill-less trolls hiding behind BIS gear. It is already happening. I dare say none of the current crop of BIS players have skill, except maybe Saber. It is all gear and mounts used against pugs for fun at another's expense. It is time to let PVP die.
So you want to remove PVP from the game then? I dont follow your proposal. "let it die" what does this mean? Then you propose to change after its died? How would you change it. Also if they let it die, what is the backlash from the player base. I know many who would leave forsure... Its not like letting it die will bring more players to the game. Even if you "fixed it" and then brought it back 1-2 modules later, the players that left wont come back... People will feel "burned" by cryptic and not want to come back...
I didnt realize Saber still played the game LOL! He is probably on the short single digit list of players who have played since beta (I think he did) that still play.
I think the better solution is to stop the bleeding of the player base, which entails a FIX to pvp today. There is already enough "PVE" content to keep people content for a while. Well, not for BIS old school PVE players but for any NEW player or casual player there are always modules to do for boons, always gear to farm etc.
The bleeding is mainly coming from a toxic PVP environment that is FUELED because of gear gap. Players without "skill" who merely out gear their opponent win.
So I guess Id ask you, what do you propose to do to fix PVP. I wouldnt "kill it" but merely just DO those needed changes today.
Personally, after much thought and debate with other people, I have arrived at my conclusion. Its the boons/mount bonuses that are the #1 culprit that are created a gap and making it so retired players WONT come back.
tripsofthrymrMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,624Community Moderator
This is a thoughtful post. It spawned many thoughtful comments.
I enjoyed PVP early on and hope changes along the lines of what is being discussed here will be made to make PVP fun for a broader slice of the player community.
This type of discussion is bound to create controversy. Remember, people with a different opinion are more likely to consider your point of view if you are polite and respectful.
This is a thoughtful post. It spawned many thoughtful comments.
I enjoyed PVP early on and hope changes along the lines of what is being discussed here will be made to make PVP fun for a broader slice of the player community.
This type of discussion is bound to create controversy. Remember, people with a different opinion are more likely to consider your point of view if you are polite and respectful.
@tripsofthrymr I agree. I remember when I first tried PVP in this game many years ago I fell inlove. It was AWESOME. I remember watching some Youtube videos on some of the best guys for tips... Some of my best memories from the game were back in the old school days... Heck I remember when GG first came out and players played it, and the dungeons that followed every single time...
What made the game fun then, doesnt exist in today's Neverwinter. Back then, sure gear made a big difference BUT! Even 2-3 average players could easily bring down a "BIS" player. Even 2v1 it was a feat of excellence when you killed 2 players (as a BIS player myself)... But now it doesnt resemble this. As my GWF if I run into a new lvl 70 player in PVP I literally 1-2 shot them with ease. If I run into an "average" player I am able to take them out with ease in a matter of seconds. Then when you go against OTHER full "BIS" players its the opposite - noone ever dies because everyone has so much self healing. Even if you focus 1 target down it can be difficult because of all the healing everyone has.
I have contemplated this A LOT. Talked with other players, talked with people who have quit the game. The solution seems very clear. THe GOAL should be: - Make the PVP battleground more "fair" for newer players. - make PVP more "fair" for PVE players - Make Neverwinter (PVP mainly) more appealing to players who have quit the game.
For all three of these Boons are the #1 culprit. Boons provide an unfair advantage to new players who just hit 70. PVP focused boons, provide an advantage over the PVE player who specs all his boons to be effective for PVE. Boons are the #1 reason why players who have thought about coming back, dont. They frankly dont want to be "behind" and be forced to grind daily quests every day for X days to get these boons so they can be competitive in "BIS PVP".
We need to tear down the barriers of PVP and fair PVP. I believe this is done by: - Removing all the campaign boons from PVP - Removing all the mount bonuses from PVP - Removing the SH boons from PVP - Removing Tenacity as a stat on gear. Providing each and every player with a base high damage resistance to other players - Remove Critical suppression and DOUBLE the "PVP damage resistance" number. - Remove secondary artifact stat benefits in PVP.
All of those would GREATLY impact the PVP playfield in a VERY positive way for all players. New players would stand a chance getting some basic gear and enchants, not being "down" all the boons/mount bonuses/tenacity/artifacts/etc.
All the players that have left wouldnt feel they need to endlessly grind to be competitive. If thye came back and had decent gear (which most do) they wouldnt need all the boons/mounts/artifacts/etc. to be competitive.
Anyways, you get the point.
At the end of the day, PVP should be a "stripped" version of your character. Basically only the stats of things you have equipped should affect you.
Do this and PVP will be revived. New and PVE players will flood PVP again. QUe times will fall and players will come back to the game now seeing all NEW PVE content as "optional" if they are a PVP focused player. Which is great and how it should be.
@clonkyo1@defiantone99 Lets keep it on topic. This is an issue that is very near and dear to all of us and its clear we are passionate about it. That said, if we dont stay on topic it derails the thread and only hurts our cause.
In order to bring all this together, I think we all largely agree. We want to see PVP a more fair place. We want to see less PUG stomping and more actual FUN/FAIR games.
@clonkyo1 and I agree that boons and mount bonuses are the #1 culprit right now in what is causing some VERY Bad matches and it seems like you also agree:
There should be a permanent vanilla mode for those who want competition and fair fights. It is the way to fix PVP.
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
Hey all,
I broke this thread off at the most logical point I could find which was Ayroux's cry to discuss and debate the actual suggestions on how to improve PvP.
I know some of you made some good comments past this point and I invite you to repost them in your own words without any debating of how much better you and your group is than somebody else. I know a lot was taken out of this thread but I wanted to go back to a fresh restart point to end the off topic debates.
Consider this a warning going forward to keep the on topic.
"Something has to be done. Additional queues solved nothing because rather than use the normal q to make sync matches or to fight in a near pug-free queue, PVP guilds just farmed the solo and duo queue events like entitled masochists. They must be forced to play against like-geared players."
Entitled masochists. Really. They were PVP events. We are PVPers. It would sound as ridiculous if I talked about newb pugs who Qd in droves for the solo and Duo events.
How dare those low IL pugs Q solo during the event and screw it up for the rest of us BIS players.
My patience with IL whiners is growing thin. Had you ever attempted anything except pug PVP, had you ever actually tried to Sync Qs with or without these events you wouldn't make such ridiculously assumptive statements.
We ask for a Premade lobby for a reason. If you had ever spent an hour and a half trying to get a sync Q you might understand, but no, it's much easier to assume and insult.
There is no such thing as a "pug free Q" during events or in regular Q. When cryptic finally listens to us and gives us the lobby we've been asking for mods to get, we will spend the majority of our time doing inhouses. However, it will never keep us out of other types of PVP. Get used to it man.
Exactly!
How many times have we asked for "Custom Games", or "Private Matches"? Mod after Mod, these 1700-2800 PUGs want to dom only for AD, and if it is not that then they don't even have Warborn gear, most of these guys wear non PvP gear or rare or green gear into dom with rank 7 enchantments expecting to compete?? and are in these guilds no one has even heard of, sometimes they aren't even in a guild!
I've seen it all and I am telling you until there is more people with better gear, and a mentality that isn't PvE minded, class balenceing is in full effect for every class, better queues are put into place, and match making is scaled to ratios(Kills,Type of PvP Gear, Deaths, Assists) and some sort of iL, then things will never change.
Theres a lot of good points here, some I am even intrigued by, but lets be honest, they need to create some sort of private Q for us to sync Q's against the top PvPers so the real "top PvP players" (not the people who enjoy pug stomping) don't have to interfere with 1600 iL John Smith from The Backstreet Boys, and he can get some seals and glory. Theres nothing more id enjoy then for some PUG to get some gear. it makes things a little more balanced knowing another person has some gear.
Long term wise? Everyone needs to relax and be patient and wait. @mimicking#6533 already said PvP was a goal he wanted to fix in 2017. So give it some time. PvP as a whole and the points I have listed above will not change over night, probably not even in 3 months from now.
I am not saying don't stop protesting and posting what YOU the PLAYER want done to PvP, feedback makes or breaks a game, all I am saying is relax. Seems every so often a white knight in shining armor makes a post wanting this done to PvP. Which I get, nothing has changed at all with PvP with no new maps or modes or any serious changes to how queues work, I play Neverwinter for PvP as I am sure many of you do too, I love the fire inside all of us wanting to play but he showed us it is a big thing he wants to work on, so lets see what happens in the coming months. Perhaps things will be much better than right now, or perhaps nothing will change at all, all we can do is wait.
I have faith in Thomas's visions for the game and I hope for the best and want nothing but balance and fairness for everyone so we can all enjoy the game and have some fun.
Long term wise? Everyone needs to relax and be patient and wait. @mimicking#6533 already said PvP was a goal he wanted to fix in 2017. So give it some time. PvP as a whole and the points I have listed above will not change over night, probably not even in 3 months from now.
I have faith in Thomas's visions for the game and I hope for the best and want nothing but balance and fairness for everyone so we can all enjoy the game and have some fun.
@theguiido I dont know your history with the game, but your post leads me to believe that since you still are holding out hope in the DEVs and are asking for us to be patient and "wait", well it leads me to believe that you are relatively newer to this game.
Many of us who ARE posting are saying this because we have been playing for 3+ years. We have been waiting, we have been promised "change" we have been providing feedback in the "feedback" threads everytime they make some new event.
Heck, I remember when they did the alpha and beta testing for SH Siege and the overwhelming feedback by us was 110% ignored by the DEVs then.
So I am sorry when we hear something like "we want to "fix PVP in 2017" and dont put much stock in that.
This game ISNT in beta... its been LIVE for like 3.5 years or something now. This is stuff they should have nailed down much sooner. They should have LISTENED to players earlier.
For me, this thread is a bit of my last cry for change. Once games like Camelot Unchained and Crowfall come out that are within this same "genre" of game, if Neverwinter doesnt fix its stuff before then... those games will suck the life out of this game and it will be the final nail in the coffin.
What really really just sucks is that Neverwinter COULD be great. Ive always said the most painful thing about the game, isnt how BAD it currently is, but its knowing just how dang good it COULD BE and isnt.
I still remember when I first made a GF in this game and how awesome an experience it was. Or when I made my GWF. Heck, when you go play a new character and low level PVP (without twinks) you can REALLY get a sense of just how dang good the game is.
Then you get to lvl 70 and youve got guys running around with literally 30k+ more stats than you who literally 2 shot you with at wills without even thinking about it and never want to leave spawn. Players are going "wtf just happened, this isnt was lvl 40 or 50 or even 60 PVP was like" Because it isnt.... Its got ALL the stupid HAMSTER tacked onto it at that point. Too many boons and mount bonuses and advantages that involve zero skill at all. It ruins the game.
What I am advocating for is for them to make a UNIVERSAL fix that will bring BACK that feeling you get when you played lower tier PVP or if you did play back in the BETA...
I understand where your coming from and the frustration that everyone feels about the current state of pvp. What you have to understand is this is not league of legends, smite etc. This is a 99% PvE oriented game with 3 tacked on PvP modes, and one microscopic sized open world PvP map.
Its obvious there is little to no development time that they are willing to dedicate to PvP right now. What @theguiido is saying is that at a minimum they could implement private queues very easily and this will alleviate some of the frustration with premades at the moment without them having to release a major update. Should they choose to overhaul PvP in the future some of the changes you are suggesting could be implemented, but as @mimicking#6533 stated wouldn't be until next year.
Lastly please remember this is a free to play. Powerful items will exist in this game that can only be obtained through microtransactions or microtransaction based things (like lockbox keys). True balance will never be achieved because profit must be made. However there are things that can be done to alleviate the problems without damaging their profit margin.
I understand where your coming from and the frustration that everyone feels about the current state of pvp. What you have to understand is this is not league of legends, smite etc. This is a 99% PvE oriented game with 3 tacked on PvP modes, and one microscopic sized open world PvP map.
Its obvious there is little to no development time that they are willing to dedicate to PvP right now. What @theguiido is saying is that at a minimum they could implement private queues very easily and this will alleviate some of the frustration with premades at the moment without them having to release a major update. Should they choose to overhaul PvP in the future some of the changes you are suggesting could be implemented, but as @mimicking#6533 stated wouldn't be until next year.
Lastly please remember this is a free to play. Powerful items will exist in this game that can only be obtained through microtransactions or microtransaction based things (like lockbox keys). True balance will never be achieved because profit must be made. However there are things that can be done to alleviate the problems without damaging their profit margin.
Seems to me that you havent read the entire thread. Which is fine.
Did you know that for the majority of this games life the large majority of their revenue came from PVP players? I bet you didnt. If you did, you might not focus on player base but revenue - which is more important to he company. I dont know where the majority of revenue comes from now because the DEV that shared that with me ~ mod 6-7 doesnt work here anymore.
Do you also realize that it would likely be EASIER for them to disable boons and mount bonuses in PVP than it would be to make a Lobby system? They already have the code working IN the game with respect to companion bonuses. It would not be hard at ALL to copy/paste that "condition" into the boons and mount bonuses. Heck I wager it wouldnt even take 1 "work day" for a competent person. Where any lobby system WOULD take time ot build from scratch and go through Q&A testing etc etc.
The depressing thing is that PvP used to be very fun back in mod 0. It wasn't perfectly balanced, but it was balanced enough that it was a match where skill > gear.
sadly things have went down hill ever since.
The first big offender was definitely Tenactiy, as stated by others, what tenacity did was segregated PvE from PvP. Previously, PvE players could hop into a PvP match, and pull their own weight, they contributed and had fun. Now, if a PvE players joins PvP, he's dead weight and a handicap to his team. That point alone destroyed the popularity of PvP.
The next big offender after that was Artifacts, the obserd requirements needed to max out artifacts made a HUGE gear score gap (what Item level used to be called) making it harder for low geared players to have meaningful impact on a PvP match, they also became dead weight It literally reached a point where top geared players could AFK, and less geared plaers couldn't touch you. (I had fey thistle, I could AFK and gain kills, as time went on even I fell of in the GS gap, now I can;t hurt others if they afk)
Thirdly and more recently was guild boons. Honestly, this mod made me quit for a full year. I don't like being in a guild, I don't like the idea of guilds in general, I'm not a pack animal, I do not have that need to belong in a group and I hate having someone else's label floating above my head... anyway. The point being those boons are so ridiculously powerful that not being in a guild now is crippling. People are forced into the top guilds just to be able to play the game, its horrible design and punishes small guilds or guildless players.
All in all, I miss Mod 0, where anyone could jump into the PvP scene and have fun, back then PvP was available for anyone to play. Now it simply isn't, and that's a real shame.
Long term wise? Everyone needs to relax and be patient and wait. @mimicking#6533 already said PvP was a goal he wanted to fix in 2017. So give it some time. PvP as a whole and the points I have listed above will not change over night, probably not even in 3 months from now.
I have faith in Thomas's visions for the game and I hope for the best and want nothing but balance and fairness for everyone so we can all enjoy the game and have some fun.
@theguiido I dont know your history with the game, but your post leads me to believe that since you still are holding out hope in the DEVs and are asking for us to be patient and "wait", well it leads me to believe that you are relatively newer to this game.
Many of us who ARE posting are saying this because we have been playing for 3+ years. We have been waiting, we have been promised "change" we have been providing feedback in the "feedback" threads everytime they make some new event.
Heck, I remember when they did the alpha and beta testing for SH Siege and the overwhelming feedback by us was 110% ignored by the DEVs then.
So I am sorry when we hear something like "we want to "fix PVP in 2017" and dont put much stock in that.
This game ISNT in beta... its been LIVE for like 3.5 years or something now. This is stuff they should have nailed down much sooner. They should have LISTENED to players earlier.
For me, this thread is a bit of my last cry for change. Once games like Camelot Unchained and Crowfall come out that are within this same "genre" of game, if Neverwinter doesnt fix its stuff before then... those games will suck the life out of this game and it will be the final nail in the coffin.
What really really just sucks is that Neverwinter COULD be great. Ive always said the most painful thing about the game, isnt how BAD it currently is, but its knowing just how dang good it COULD BE and isnt.
I still remember when I first made a GF in this game and how awesome an experience it was. Or when I made my GWF. Heck, when you go play a new character and low level PVP (without twinks) you can REALLY get a sense of just how dang good the game is.
Then you get to lvl 70 and youve got guys running around with literally 30k+ more stats than you who literally 2 shot you with at wills without even thinking about it and never want to leave spawn. Players are going "wtf just happened, this isnt was lvl 40 or 50 or even 60 PVP was like" Because it isnt.... Its got ALL the stupid HAMSTER tacked onto it at that point. Too many boons and mount bonuses and advantages that involve zero skill at all. It ruins the game.
What I am advocating for is for them to make a UNIVERSAL fix that will bring BACK that feeling you get when you played lower tier PVP or if you did play back in the BETA...
I completely agree it has been awhile, but we can't go back in time, we gotta keep moving forward. Of course first impressions and history in this game tends to repeat it's self, I think this game is going to (hopefully) make a turn for the better. I really like the way the games direction is in now, and I hope it stays consistent like this in the months coming.
and like @sh00termcl0vin said, things can change with out hurting profit margins.
Like I said though, it is very nice to see the progress they have made in the past couple of months in terms of community outreach and bug fixing, things like that. More than ever if you want to compare it to previous times. Which is really cool thing and it shows change for the better, things headed in the right direction.
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I only get nasty if someone trys to defend it as "the better option" vs. a soloqueue, since we witnessed for >2 years that it is the most toxic and destructive kind of PVP you could imagine. I took part since mod 8 and stopped, despite having a pretty high frustration tolerance.
I guess the other option would be to limit the class makeup in parties or what not... But yes, some builds (OP comes to mind) can be very troll and when you combine classes or double up on classes it does become very un-fun to play. That IS one issue, but I see that more as a class balance issue rather than anything else.
If classes were balanced, in a perfect world there would be no advantage to take two paladins over a rainbow comp. Maybe thats one way to force it... If you que with 5 players for PVP it forces rainbow... If you que with 4 you could allow some people to "double up".
You can always impose some rules like that to avoid troll comps.
IMO, the BEST first step is to get rid of the boons, and mount bonuses for PVP. This strips down characters and THEN makes it much more easy to balance classes for PVP when you dont have the massive stats and what not available to skew the issues.
Oh I completely agree with you. This is why I have been saying for many modules that self healing is WAY to out of control and what allows this to happen. You have CWs that can self heal SO much, they turn into "tanks". You have these striker classes that can self sustain WAY too well. GWF/HR/CW etc. You have tanks doing more burst damage than strikers etc.
I think a lot of this comes from the stats though. When you remove endless consumption +lifesteal stats it removes SOME of this self healing which then forces the "tank" classes to spec more defensively to survive which in turn makes them deal less damage.
I dont disagree with you though that fundamentally the "core" abilities need to be changed a bit. However that doesnt address the overall problem of population and PVP. Even if classes became better "balanced" if the current gear gap stands, you will STILL have BIS players 4v1 or 5v1 "average joes" in PVP.
This is why #1 needs to be to remove all those stats. remove boons, remove mount bonuses, which includes endless consumption, and thousands of stats available... Which in turn brings these classes more to a "norm" and THEN allows you to adjust some base abilities.
For instance, if you remove all the boons. GFs will have a very hard time being both a tank and DPS. Same with GWFs, removing endless cuts lifesteal and removing all the lifesteal stat makes it VERY difficult to get a reliable lifesteal # from sheer gear + enchants alone.. Which means GWFs will need to lose damage if they want to keep lifesteal high to self sustain.
But yeah, some self healing abilities (like wilds medicine for HR and Chaotic Growth for CW) need to be nerfed or removed as well.
I remember back in early days, Regen was super high which caused big problems in PVP but regen was "capped" and so with enough DPS you could kill, or enough burst you could clear a node with work. Nowadays, non healing classes can self sustain SO well that they dont even really need a healer which comes back around to the "why" behind the gear gap. When an average player teams up 2v1 or 3v1 against a BIS player, they cant kill them because that BIS player can self sustain too well.
Removing boons, removes much of this self sustain, which in turn allows average players to 2v1 or 3v1 BIS players better, as well as, BIS vs BIS players to clear nodes making PVP more dynamic.
But yeah, class balance needs a re-work, I agree.
In this game, gear means too much. Now I think it SHOULD matter some, its an RPG right? So we dont need it to be the same PVP as say "overwatch" where its all about the class and rock paper scissors... But that said, they need to normalize player "power" in PVP (not the stat just to be clear).
This is done by fixing some of the problems that I have highlighted in this thread. PVE boons and tenacity are a HUGE culprit, same with mount bonuses and then SH boons as well. After that I would peg artifacts and artifact equipment as the next issue.
If you want to remove the toxic players from the game this is what would be needed:
#1 remove tenacity on gear, apply a "player damage resistance" bonus to ALL players that scales with level: (10% +1% per level) = 80% at lvl 70. Remove critical suppression. Control resist can be 0% base and .5% per level (35% at 70).
#2 Remove ALL boons and Mount bonuses from PVP - they should be treated as companions are. PVE only.
#3 Look at all artifact equipment, and the "BIS" PVE gear should be buffed to be ~90% of the same strength. Ideally what this would mean is the "BIS PVE" weapons would have all the same STATS minus maybe the artifact "bonuses" same with belts/neck/etc. Trivializing the benefits of artifact equipment.
#4 Only your primary artifact should work in PVP - meaning secondary ones dont provide stat benefits in PVP anymore.
Now you have a PVP environment that is the most friendly to all players. "BIS" PVP players will still be able to out gear opponents, but the advantage they gain will be minimal compared to an average player. This will make the game more competitive and will start to "weed out" the toxic players from PVP and encourage retired players to come BACK to the game. Yeah well we know the solutions... remove boons, remove mount bonuses, shift tenacity away from gear.... IMO heal depression could even use an adjustment or be removed from PVP as well but instead of JUST doing that, take a look at ALL the healing abilities in the game and make some adjustments to them.... Thats too complicated so might not be a good idea but I do think taking a look at all NON-healer classes self healing abilities (we named a few above) and nerfing those, would be a positive first step.
Its rather silly to me that any non healer class can even self heal at all in combat... I get having "some" self healing is needed for PVE solo content and what not, this is where you can have SOME items and abilities and lifesteal, but the current amount people can get is just a joke. Not only trivializing PVE content, but making PVP completely unbalanced.
I think self healing needs to be capped at a 1 tick per second or every 3 seconds type of heal and it should be ALL based on % of HP. So thinks like Wilds Medicine, make it something like a "X% CHANCE on deflect, gain ~3% of your HP every second for 10 seconds". So its a total of 30% in PVE (15% on PVP). Something like this, doesnt stack. Just as one example. Maybe that would be too weak, but maybe not...
For CW, same type of thing. if you get that Chaotic regrowth buff, it should heal you the same fixed amount 3% of HP over 10 seconds every 1 second. 30% maxed.
GWF restoring Strike - should be the same type of thing. Fixed %of HP heal per second over X seconds. NOT based on damage.
So you give these classes these feats/abilities that CAN provide a little self sustain, but only enough to allow for solo-play without over doing it in PVP.
Lifesteal (IMO) should also be adjusted to 200:1% (from 400:1%) but base severity kicked down from 100% -> 50%. So rather than having a chance at a BIG heal, you would have smaller heals a little more frequent. What this does, along with removal of boons which removes endless consumption from PVP too, is makes lifesteal still viable. If you leave it as is, some classes like CW who can get 10% lifesteal get a BIG advantage where as making it 200:1 cuts that advantage in half. This is just IMO though... Also if you DO get off a big crit of 60-80k+ and just to happen to have your 10% lifesteal proc on that, its a HUGe deal. Making it 50% and 200:1 nerfs that "big heal" effect in PVP.
IMO - First Strike (TR feat) needs a rework as its troll in PVP and useless in PVE. Id redesign it. The initial "rules" were "At the start of an encounter, you have combat advantage against any creatures that have not yet acted in that encounter." This is for PnP... Well combat advantage is already given from stealth. So I would maybe just adjust this to something LIKE: Your encounters deal 30% increased damage from stealth" or something. So it would buff ALL stealth damage - but NOT affect dailies - removing the first strike SE problems.... Just an idea I havnt though much about, but this buffs First Strike in PVE and nerfs the PVP trolls.
But anyways, it all stems from the BIGGEST issue: Gear gap caused by boons.
I didnt realize Saber still played the game LOL! He is probably on the short single digit list of players who have played since beta (I think he did) that still play.
I think the better solution is to stop the bleeding of the player base, which entails a FIX to pvp today. There is already enough "PVE" content to keep people content for a while. Well, not for BIS old school PVE players but for any NEW player or casual player there are always modules to do for boons, always gear to farm etc.
The bleeding is mainly coming from a toxic PVP environment that is FUELED because of gear gap. Players without "skill" who merely out gear their opponent win.
So I guess Id ask you, what do you propose to do to fix PVP. I wouldnt "kill it" but merely just DO those needed changes today.
Personally, after much thought and debate with other people, I have arrived at my conclusion. Its the boons/mount bonuses that are the #1 culprit that are created a gap and making it so retired players WONT come back.
I enjoyed PVP early on and hope changes along the lines of what is being discussed here will be made to make PVP fun for a broader slice of the player community.
This type of discussion is bound to create controversy. Remember, people with a different opinion are more likely to consider your point of view if you are polite and respectful.
Sci-fi author: The Gods We Make, The Gods We Seek, and Ji-min
@tripsofthrymr I agree. I remember when I first tried PVP in this game many years ago I fell inlove. It was AWESOME. I remember watching some Youtube videos on some of the best guys for tips... Some of my best memories from the game were back in the old school days... Heck I remember when GG first came out and players played it, and the dungeons that followed every single time...
What made the game fun then, doesnt exist in today's Neverwinter. Back then, sure gear made a big difference BUT! Even 2-3 average players could easily bring down a "BIS" player. Even 2v1 it was a feat of excellence when you killed 2 players (as a BIS player myself)... But now it doesnt resemble this. As my GWF if I run into a new lvl 70 player in PVP I literally 1-2 shot them with ease. If I run into an "average" player I am able to take them out with ease in a matter of seconds. Then when you go against OTHER full "BIS" players its the opposite - noone ever dies because everyone has so much self healing. Even if you focus 1 target down it can be difficult because of all the healing everyone has.
I have contemplated this A LOT. Talked with other players, talked with people who have quit the game. The solution seems very clear. THe GOAL should be:
- Make the PVP battleground more "fair" for newer players.
- make PVP more "fair" for PVE players
- Make Neverwinter (PVP mainly) more appealing to players who have quit the game.
For all three of these Boons are the #1 culprit. Boons provide an unfair advantage to new players who just hit 70. PVP focused boons, provide an advantage over the PVE player who specs all his boons to be effective for PVE. Boons are the #1 reason why players who have thought about coming back, dont. They frankly dont want to be "behind" and be forced to grind daily quests every day for X days to get these boons so they can be competitive in "BIS PVP".
We need to tear down the barriers of PVP and fair PVP. I believe this is done by:
- Removing all the campaign boons from PVP
- Removing all the mount bonuses from PVP
- Removing the SH boons from PVP
- Removing Tenacity as a stat on gear. Providing each and every player with a base high damage resistance to other players
- Remove Critical suppression and DOUBLE the "PVP damage resistance" number.
- Remove secondary artifact stat benefits in PVP.
All of those would GREATLY impact the PVP playfield in a VERY positive way for all players. New players would stand a chance getting some basic gear and enchants, not being "down" all the boons/mount bonuses/tenacity/artifacts/etc.
All the players that have left wouldnt feel they need to endlessly grind to be competitive. If thye came back and had decent gear (which most do) they wouldnt need all the boons/mounts/artifacts/etc. to be competitive.
Anyways, you get the point.
At the end of the day, PVP should be a "stripped" version of your character. Basically only the stats of things you have equipped should affect you.
Do this and PVP will be revived. New and PVE players will flood PVP again. QUe times will fall and players will come back to the game now seeing all NEW PVE content as "optional" if they are a PVP focused player. Which is great and how it should be.
@clonkyo1 @defiantone99 Lets keep it on topic. This is an issue that is very near and dear to all of us and its clear we are passionate about it. That said, if we dont stay on topic it derails the thread and only hurts our cause.
In order to bring all this together, I think we all largely agree. We want to see PVP a more fair place. We want to see less PUG stomping and more actual FUN/FAIR games.
@clonkyo1 and I agree that boons and mount bonuses are the #1 culprit right now in what is causing some VERY Bad matches and it seems like you also agree:
I broke this thread off at the most logical point I could find which was Ayroux's cry to discuss and debate the actual suggestions on how to improve PvP.
I know some of you made some good comments past this point and I invite you to repost them in your own words without any debating of how much better you and your group is than somebody else. I know a lot was taken out of this thread but I wanted to go back to a fresh restart point to end the off topic debates.
Consider this a warning going forward to keep the on topic.
How many times have we asked for "Custom Games", or "Private Matches"? Mod after Mod, these 1700-2800 PUGs want to dom only for AD, and if it is not that then they don't even have Warborn gear, most of these guys wear non PvP gear or rare or green gear into dom with rank 7 enchantments expecting to compete?? and are in these guilds no one has even heard of, sometimes they aren't even in a guild!
I've seen it all and I am telling you until there is more people with better gear, and a mentality that isn't PvE minded, class balenceing is in full effect for every class, better queues are put into place, and match making is scaled to ratios(Kills,Type of PvP Gear, Deaths, Assists) and some sort of iL, then things will never change.
Theres a lot of good points here, some I am even intrigued by, but lets be honest, they need to create some sort of private Q for us to sync Q's against the top PvPers so the real "top PvP players" (not the people who enjoy pug stomping) don't have to interfere with 1600 iL John Smith from The Backstreet Boys, and he can get some seals and glory. Theres nothing more id enjoy then for some PUG to get some gear. it makes things a little more balanced knowing another person has some gear.
Long term wise? Everyone needs to relax and be patient and wait. @mimicking#6533 already said PvP was a goal he wanted to fix in 2017. So give it some time. PvP as a whole and the points I have listed above will not change over night, probably not even in 3 months from now.
I am not saying don't stop protesting and posting what YOU the PLAYER want done to PvP, feedback makes or breaks a game, all I am saying is relax. Seems every so often a white knight in shining armor makes a post wanting this done to PvP. Which I get, nothing has changed at all with PvP with no new maps or modes or any serious changes to how queues work, I play Neverwinter for PvP as I am sure many of you do too, I love the fire inside all of us wanting to play but he showed us it is a big thing he wants to work on, so lets see what happens in the coming months. Perhaps things will be much better than right now, or perhaps nothing will change at all, all we can do is wait.
I have faith in Thomas's visions for the game and I hope for the best and want nothing but balance and fairness for everyone so we can all enjoy the game and have some fun.
Guardian Fighter
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https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter/#/discussion/1221446/the-future-of-the-gf/p1 Existing Problems Still In The Guardian Fighter
https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter/#/discussion/comment/12984912m
Feat Changes I'd like to see in The Guardian Fighter
Many of us who ARE posting are saying this because we have been playing for 3+ years. We have been waiting, we have been promised "change" we have been providing feedback in the "feedback" threads everytime they make some new event.
Heck, I remember when they did the alpha and beta testing for SH Siege and the overwhelming feedback by us was 110% ignored by the DEVs then.
So I am sorry when we hear something like "we want to "fix PVP in 2017" and dont put much stock in that.
This game ISNT in beta... its been LIVE for like 3.5 years or something now. This is stuff they should have nailed down much sooner. They should have LISTENED to players earlier.
For me, this thread is a bit of my last cry for change. Once games like Camelot Unchained and Crowfall come out that are within this same "genre" of game, if Neverwinter doesnt fix its stuff before then... those games will suck the life out of this game and it will be the final nail in the coffin.
What really really just sucks is that Neverwinter COULD be great. Ive always said the most painful thing about the game, isnt how BAD it currently is, but its knowing just how dang good it COULD BE and isnt.
I still remember when I first made a GF in this game and how awesome an experience it was. Or when I made my GWF. Heck, when you go play a new character and low level PVP (without twinks) you can REALLY get a sense of just how dang good the game is.
Then you get to lvl 70 and youve got guys running around with literally 30k+ more stats than you who literally 2 shot you with at wills without even thinking about it and never want to leave spawn. Players are going "wtf just happened, this isnt was lvl 40 or 50 or even 60 PVP was like" Because it isnt.... Its got ALL the stupid HAMSTER tacked onto it at that point. Too many boons and mount bonuses and advantages that involve zero skill at all. It ruins the game.
What I am advocating for is for them to make a UNIVERSAL fix that will bring BACK that feeling you get when you played lower tier PVP or if you did play back in the BETA...
I understand where your coming from and the frustration that everyone feels about the current state of pvp. What you have to understand is this is not league of legends, smite etc. This is a 99% PvE oriented game with 3 tacked on PvP modes, and one microscopic sized open world PvP map.
Its obvious there is little to no development time that they are willing to dedicate to PvP right now. What @theguiido is saying is that at a minimum they could implement private queues very easily and this will alleviate some of the frustration with premades at the moment without them having to release a major update. Should they choose to overhaul PvP in the future some of the changes you are suggesting could be implemented, but as @mimicking#6533 stated wouldn't be until next year.
Lastly please remember this is a free to play. Powerful items will exist in this game that can only be obtained through microtransactions or microtransaction based things (like lockbox keys). True balance will never be achieved because profit must be made. However there are things that can be done to alleviate the problems without damaging their profit margin.
Did you know that for the majority of this games life the large majority of their revenue came from PVP players? I bet you didnt. If you did, you might not focus on player base but revenue - which is more important to he company. I dont know where the majority of revenue comes from now because the DEV that shared that with me ~ mod 6-7 doesnt work here anymore.
Do you also realize that it would likely be EASIER for them to disable boons and mount bonuses in PVP than it would be to make a Lobby system? They already have the code working IN the game with respect to companion bonuses. It would not be hard at ALL to copy/paste that "condition" into the boons and mount bonuses. Heck I wager it wouldnt even take 1 "work day" for a competent person. Where any lobby system WOULD take time ot build from scratch and go through Q&A testing etc etc.
sadly things have went down hill ever since.
The first big offender was definitely Tenactiy, as stated by others, what tenacity did was segregated PvE from PvP. Previously, PvE players could hop into a PvP match, and pull their own weight, they contributed and had fun. Now, if a PvE players joins PvP, he's dead weight and a handicap to his team. That point alone destroyed the popularity of PvP.
The next big offender after that was Artifacts, the obserd requirements needed to max out artifacts made a HUGE gear score gap (what Item level used to be called) making it harder for low geared players to have meaningful impact on a PvP match, they also became dead weight It literally reached a point where top geared players could AFK, and less geared plaers couldn't touch you. (I had fey thistle, I could AFK and gain kills, as time went on even I fell of in the GS gap, now I can;t hurt others if they afk)
Thirdly and more recently was guild boons. Honestly, this mod made me quit for a full year. I don't like being in a guild, I don't like the idea of guilds in general, I'm not a pack animal, I do not have that need to belong in a group and I hate having someone else's label floating above my head... anyway. The point being those boons are so ridiculously powerful that not being in a guild now is crippling. People are forced into the top guilds just to be able to play the game, its horrible design and punishes small guilds or guildless players.
All in all, I miss Mod 0, where anyone could jump into the PvP scene and have fun, back then PvP was available for anyone to play. Now it simply isn't, and that's a real shame.
and like @sh00termcl0vin said, things can change with out hurting profit margins.
Like I said though, it is very nice to see the progress they have made in the past couple of months in terms of community outreach and bug fixing, things like that. More than ever if you want to compare it to previous times. Which is really cool thing and it shows change for the better, things headed in the right direction.
Guardian Fighter
TLO
https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter/#/discussion/1221446/the-future-of-the-gf/p1 Existing Problems Still In The Guardian Fighter
https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter/#/discussion/comment/12984912m
Feat Changes I'd like to see in The Guardian Fighter